Aesthetics behind being frightening


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I'm making a Rogue (Thug) 10 as an antagonist for my PCs to fight against. For skills, he has Persuasive, Skill Focus, Intimidating Prowess, and Shatter Defenses. With a Charisma of 13 and 15 strength, this gives him a +25 bonus to Intimidate checks. Obviously, he'll be using intimidate to demoralize his opponents. With the Frightening ability and a good roll, he can potentially Frighten an opponent rather than making them shaken.

My question is thus. Aesthetically, how do you envision someone attacking you in such a way that it makes you run away in a panic, despite your training or personality? A seasoned, veteran dwarven warrior of 10th level would be virtually guaranteed to be frightened by this guy . . . and I just don't envision this happening.

I like this idea, and want to use it against my PCs, but I want to settle it, aesthetically, in my own mind first. So anyone have any ideas?


It's always iffy developing antagonists like this because the characters are defenceless against it unless they are all paladins or have ready access to fear removal/fear protection magic. Remember, to demoralize someone you need to roll against a DC of 10 + the creature's hit dice + their Wisdom modifier. Thus, with an average roll (11 on a d20) your thug can demoralize all 10th-level PCs within 30 feet for at least a couple of rounds. And he can do it more than once! (though with a cumulative +5 penalty to the roll) Your PCs might get extremely annoyed when facing such an NPC, especially when they don't get a saving throw or anything to avoid the effect.

Also remember that something cool on paper doesn't necessarily translate well into the game.

As for making it seem real for the PCs, it's all about the description.

Dark Archive

Agreed; it's all about aesthetics.

If you want to scare a veteran dwarf, though, you might want to consider this: Yelling at a stalwart dwarf is not going to scare him. Especially if he's a battle-hardened warrior. Try being cruel--play with them. Break their armor and swords, lick their blood off your weapons, cut their fingers off one at a time.

It'll certainly be more memorable than a guy who just yells in your face waving a sword. A lot of villains do that.


Right, that's exactly it. I like the idea, but I don't want to use it if it doesn't make sense. Considering this guy's stats, he's basically guaranteed to make shaken, and has a good chance to frighten, the entire group. Repeatedly.

Doing something like a weapon dance and making them shaken makes total sense to me. That's easy to visualize. But barring magic or something extraordinary, I just don't see someone that's confident in themself seeing, say an average bandit throwing knives with careful precision, and soiling themselves and running in fear. Realizing they're outmatched and choosing to run because they know it's a loosing battle, but having no choice but to flee? I can't visualize it.

Some other options I was thinking of was to make it a modified willsave, or possibly just applying additional penalties (a la shaken), instead of making them frightened. What do you guys think of that?

Contributor

A concept I've used before for a master intimidator is "the littlest billy goat gruff." Basically, the character intimidates not by convincing someone that he's such a scary bad-ass, but by convincing them that he's the kid brother/sidekick/team mascot of some supreme bad-ass.

Think of Jimmy Olsen or Rick Jones. I mean you've got an annoying cub reporter and a teenage runaway who wants to be a folk rock star and both have no useful power...apart from being the best friends of the two strongest beings of their respective universes.

Your dwarf may be a battle-hardened bad-ass, but he's still got things he's frightened of. The only frightening thing about the littlest billy goat gruff is his immense number of favors he can call in from exactly whatever it is that would terrify a character most.


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Personally I'd have the characters meet lots of the rogue's goons - big, strong, hard-as-nails types.. ..the kinda fold who chew glass for kicks..

...and when said goons are taken hostage/in a tight spot they do absolutely anything rather than talk. They'd be dashing their brains out on the cobble stones, leaping out of fourth floor windows, running under the wheels of carriages etc etc etc

NPC's would refuse to mention the rogues name - entire social circles will be responisble for barring the rogue's name from general use...

As the PC's explore the area have them encounter many many many graves, grizzly trophies (heads split in two, insides scooped out, nailed to crosses, severed hands wtih fingers as candles, random feet.. etc) and meet the occasional victim who simply screams in terror and gibbers whilst rolling on the floor...

...and, finally, when they open the last door/encounter they ecounte the rogue, an unassuming chap who is sitting quietly in a comfey seat, .. ..quietly eating an apple... with a small yet very sharp-looking knife..

As the party approaches the rogue would look up and slowly smile..

..and then I'd kill the lights! (magical darkness/blind the party etc)

I figure the rogue can intimidate with their voice! Damn the visual madness :)

*shakes fist*


WOW, so I just perused my APG for some feats for his archer friends and came across Enforcer.

Spoiler:
Enforcer (Combat)
You are skilled at causing fear in those you brutalize.
Prerequisite: Intimidate 1 rank.
Benefit: Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with
a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to
demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful,
the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the
damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is
frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check,
as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to
the damage dealt.

This plus my current build is . . . to be honest, ridiculous. Like, really, ridiculous. Guaranteed to cause them to be frightened. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about this, heh. As a player, I'd be afraid of using this combination due to divine DM retribution. xD

Good suggestions so far, though. Keep them coming. :)


Even with Intimidating Prowess, Intimidate is still a skill based off of Charisma. Force of personality, persuasiveness, ability to manipulate. Its the power to instill fear with a word, not a gesture. A half orc who breaks a railroad timber with his bare hands is not intimidating, he's just obviously dangerous. Any sane person would do whatever that orc wants, because the consequences for disobedience are blatant and obvious.

Now, a gnome who walks into the bar and finds his favorite barstool occupied, climbs the stool next to it to speak to the offending posterior's owner, who then quickly gets up and leaves the bar glancing over his shoulder with a look of desperate worry on his face, is intimidating. Intimidate is about convincing someone you could do something terrible to them, even if that seems unlikely or even ridiculous in the present context.

Look for inspiration in some of the classic intimidation lines from movies and such. A quick and easy method is PVC, Polite-Vague-Calm. Like Moroes from Kharazan in WoW. After sneak attacking or otherwise inflicting damage on someone: "Oh, I've gone and made a mess..."

I played a gnome rogue once who was a competent intimidator, even with the size penalties. In combat, my usual intimidate line was to gesture at the half-orc barbarian and dragonborn palladin of the party and say with a tone between bored and curious "You wanna know why those two keep their distance from me when I fight?" Outside of fights, I'd make a gesture like when you are "framing a picture" while looking at a person's knees. When asked what I was doing, my reply was "Checking to see if your kneecaps will match the others on my mantle back at home. Now hold still."

Remember, most intimidating lines sound fairly silly or not intimidating when read or spoken by others. Again, charisma is what drives an intimidation home. And in the end, sometimes just a cold, hard, unflinching stare, like the one your mother gave you when you did something you knew was wrong, is all that an intimidate needs.


Even very un-intimidating people can be intimidating ;)

Although really, this scene kinda reflects on why being "intimidating" is hard when you're the DM. Being intimidating is something that's semi-reserved for BBEGs and PCs, without much in between. To the PCs, they're heroes; they won't be scared by just any old guy like a bunch of chumps. Note that in that clip it's not Steve Buscemi that intimidates them, it's the story of the PC that does it.

So, make the character BBEG-style status. He doesn't have to be the ACTUAL BBEG, but on the other hand, the players don't need to know that ;). Describe his actions. He doesn't wave his weapon and yell at the dwarf, he quietly loops his knives around his fingers and smiles. Play up the smile as being chilling, or hell, just flat out call it "intimidating."

In the end, you'll hit a point where it doesn't matter what the character or monster is. Either the PCs play along - which they should - or they don't.

Scarab Sages

Yea. If you can make the players genuinely worried based on his actions, it will be easier to justify their characters being afraid since it will correlate with their decision making.


Brogue The Rogue wrote:

Right, that's exactly it. I like the idea, but I don't want to use it if it doesn't make sense. Considering this guy's stats, he's basically guaranteed to make shaken, and has a good chance to frighten, the entire group. Repeatedly.

Not only that, but he'll be able to keep them sickened with brutal beating - it's about the same effect as shaken, but it'll work on a paladins and other fearless folks. That's a nice ability.


Brogue The Rogue wrote:
A seasoned, veteran dwarven warrior of 10th level would be virtually guaranteed to be frightened by this guy . . . and I just don't envision this happening.

I can if the guy has a bunch of long beards tucked into his belt as trophies. Besides some broken axe blades.


One way to role play it is something like this.

"The man walks up to you and looks into your eyes." [Roll a d20] "Your eyes lock for a moment, and suddenly, you know he is better than you. You turn, desperate to find a way to escape with your life."

You don't try to show the guy with a big axe that you can wave an axe (just like his) and shout (just like him). You enter a battle of wills and break his confidence. If you think someone is better than you, it is perfectly reasonable to be afraid of them.

Frightened is also an effect that has good points and bad points. While they are frightened, the PC's wont be attacking if they can avoid it. But they will be running away. If the battle happens in the middle of a prairie, they will take ranged attacks for several rounds while they are frightened (and several more if they try to return to melee). But if it happens in a forest or a city, they will likely be out of sight after a round or two. The mage could be 800 feet away after a single round if he decides to use Dimension Door. (I'm assuming a 10th level party.)

The first encounter is likely to end with the party running away. There is likely no need for them to return immediately. When they do, the will likely have various anti-fear effects prepared.


Thanks for all the advice, everyone. :)

Our session was yesterday, and they fought this guy (a bandit) along with some of his bandit friends. Unfortunately, or fortunately, I suppose, the issue never even came up. The bard won initiative, hit the bandits with slow, then won.

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