Specfically: A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form.
It seems that, gone are the days of great wyrm bronze, silver or gold dragons taking humaniod forms. In fact with this change, once a dragon reaches huge in size, the change shape ability pretty much becomes useless for what it was originally intended for: disguising a dragon.
How about the yuan-ti wanting to change herself into a tiny viper, nope sorry, out of luck. Once again another creature where change-shape becomes useless.
I'm hoping there is an errata that fixes this over-sight.
Creative Director
|
Specfically: A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form.
It seems that, gone are the days of great wyrm bronze, silver or gold dragons taking humaniod forms. In fact with this change, once a dragon reaches huge in size, the change shape ability pretty much becomes useless for what it was originally intended for: disguising a dragon.
How about the yuan-ti wanting to change herself into a tiny viper, nope sorry, out of luck. Once again another creature where change-shape becomes useless.
I'm hoping there is an errata that fixes this over-sight.
Actually, the generic rules for change shape are superseded by the rules for specific monsters. In the case of dragons with change shape, they CAN become humans (or other humanoids of any size). The dragon change shape ability specifically says "ANY" animal or humanoid form, which includes humanoids of Medium size. So it's all good; no errata needed! :)
If we could do yuan-ti (which we can't because of copyright) we'd simply list in the yuan-ti's change shape entry in its stat block something like this: Change Shape (Tiny viper; polymorph).
Ahh alrighty thank you!
Hypothetically, if you were to convert the yuan-ti alternate form to change shape, would it work as standard polymorph(beast form II, vipers only) or "upgraded" to just working as beast form III(for poison)?
|
Creative Director
|
Hypothetically, if you were to convert the yuan-ti alternate form to change shape, would it work as standard polymorph(beast form II, vipers only) or "upgraded" to just working as beat form III(for poison)?
I'd give them beast form III. Because poison is what it's all about. (And because since yuan-ti already HAVE a poison bite, letting them have a poison bite in Tiny viper form is hardly game breaking)
Thank you :-)
My bigger problem with change shape is that now, the dragon (or succubus or whatever) has to pay attention and reactivate it every few minutes because the ability only lasts as long as the spell--which is only a few minutes at a time. And creature like dragons, that can only use the ability 3/day, can only take human form for like a half-hour per day. So much for infiltrating human settlements or setting up alternate identities. I would much prefer if the ability specified a "permanent until dismissed" duration or somesuch.
|
Creative Director
|
According un Universal Monster Rules. With Change Shape, Monsters don't change ability scores, so the Yuan-Ti make a rather strong, clumsy viper.
Which is why we'd also amend a hypothetical Yuan-ti ability so that it would change its stats. Or more likely, we'd just give it beast shape III (Tiny viper only) as a spell-like ability.
|
Creative Director
|
My bigger problem with change shape is that now, the dragon (or succubus or whatever) has to pay attention and reactivate it every few minutes because the ability only lasts as long as the spell--which is only a few minutes at a time. And creature like dragons, that can only use the ability 3/day, can only take human form for like a half-hour per day. So much for infiltrating human settlements or setting up alternate identities. I would much prefer if the ability specified a "permanent until dismissed" duration or somesuch.
For creatures with the ability to change shape at will, I would suggest letting them maintain their alternate form indefinitely. The end effect is the same and certainly doesn't overpower anything.
As for dragons... that's an intentional change. Pathfinder dragons are not SUPPOSED to be able to turn into humans for unlimited amounts of time as a baseline—they spend the majority of their time in dragon form. There WILL be a new feat in the upcoming World Guide to the Inner Sea that increases the duration for shapechangers like dragons so they can maintain an alternate form for a much longer time, though.
But the baseline for dragons in Pathfinder is that they do not infiltrate human settlements. At least, that's the baseline for chromatic and metallic dragons, unless they get ahold of some sort of other form of magic or item.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
This post is rife with my opinion, which runs contrary to the Creative Director.
As for dragons... that's an intentional change. Pathfinder dragons are not SUPPOSED to be able to turn into humans for unlimited amounts of time as a baseline—they spend the majority of their time in dragon form. ... But the baseline for dragons in Pathfinder is that they do not infiltrate human settlements. At least, that's the baseline for chromatic and metallic dragons, unless they get ahold of some sort of other form of magic or item.
See, I consider this as a confusion between campaign setting (Dragons in Golarion don't take human form) versus rules system (therefore dragons in the Pathfinder bestiary don't have that ability.)
What about folks who want to run Pathfinder games set in the pre-cataclysm Forgotten Realms? Or Greyhawk? Or the Goodman "Dungeon Crawl Classics" world? (Well, sure, the answer would be "change the rules system to allow that" of course.)
Every campaign setting has its own quirks and rules modifications. So, I wonder why "Dragons can't maintain humanoid disguises for very long" became the baseline rule for the gamerather than a Golarion-specific world law.
|
Creative Director
|
Every campaign setting has its own quirks and rules modifications. So, I wonder why "Dragons can't maintain humanoid disguises for very long" became the baseline rule for the gamerather than a Golarion-specific world law.
It had to be one of them. We chose to default things toward our own campaign world's baseline because to us, Golarion IS the baseline.
It had to be one of them. We chose to default things toward our own campaign world's baseline because to us, Golarion IS the baseline.
I get this. It's easy enough to fix with magic items or houserules, anyway.
My question, though, is what's the point of dragons even having the abiilty to change into a human at all if it's only for ten minutes per day (and that's for a relatively old, powerful dragon)? That's practically useless; you can't even have a serious conversation in that short of a time, so it's really not even useful for diplomacy or deception.
|
Creative Director
|
It had to be one of them. We chose to default things toward our own campaign world's baseline because to us, Golarion IS the baseline.I get this. It's easy enough to fix with magic items or houserules, anyway.
My question, though, is what's the point of dragons even having the abiilty to change into a human at all if it's only for ten minutes per day (and that's for a relatively old, powerful dragon)? That's practically useless; you can't even have a serious conversation in that short of a time, so it's really not even useful for diplomacy or deception.
The point is that this allows dragons to be mysterious figures that, perhaps, appear to offer advice before vanishing, to pretend to be a human leader that appears before its followers a few times a day, or whatever.
For what it's worth, I think that we SHOULD have given those dragons change shape at will (which would solve the problem), but we didn't, and I'm not so sure it's worth "fixing" now. I'd rather fix it by including a feat in the World Guide to the Inner Sea (likely to reprint it elsewhere, or perhaps even to be put into Bestiary 2) that extends the duration of the change shape ability. We'll see!
I'd rather fix it by including a feat in the World Guide to the Inner Sea (likely to reprint it elsewhere, or perhaps even to be put into Bestiary 2) that extends the duration of the change shape ability. We'll see!
Since there are dragons in Golarion who hide in human society you actually should design such a feat. Apart from "Guardians of Dragonfall" (which admittedly is a very early adventure with some continuity problems in regard to later lore) there is for example the great gold wyrm Astarathian from Dragons Revisited who lives in Pangolais, the heart of Nidal. The gold dragon hiding in human(-anoid) society is an almost iconic trope in D&D.
And then there's Spravilvost (juvenile bronze in Molthune) ...
|
I'd rather fix it by including a feat in the World Guide to the Inner Sea (likely to reprint it elsewhere, or perhaps even to be put into Bestiary 2) that extends the duration of the change shape ability. We'll see!Since there are dragons in Golarion who hide in human society you actually should design such a feat. Apart from "Guardians of Dragonfall" (which admittedly is a very early adventure with some continuity problems in regard to later lore) there is for example the great gold wyrm Astarathian from Dragons Revisited who lives in Pangolais, the heart of Nidal. The gold dragon hiding in human(-anoid) society is an almost iconic trope in D&D.
And then there's Spravilvost (juvenile bronze in Molthune) ...
Actually, that part of Golarion is being rolled back, as far as James indicated. Dragons cuddling humans doesn't sit will with current vision of Golarion. That's why, for example, Dragons Revisited mentions a freedom fighter dragon in Westcrown, but he is absent from Council of Thieves AP.
|
Creative Director
|
Since there are dragons in Golarion who hide in human society you actually should design such a feat. Apart from "Guardians of Dragonfall" (which admittedly is a very early adventure with some continuity problems in regard to later lore) there is for example the great gold wyrm Astarathian from Dragons Revisited who lives in Pangolais, the heart of Nidal. The gold dragon hiding in human(-anoid) society is an almost iconic trope in D&D.
And then there's Spravilvost (juvenile bronze in Molthune) ...
Such a feat WILL be appearing in the revised World Guide, even though we'll be downplaying the "dragons who hide in humanoid societies" significantly.
Yeah, it's a bummer that that was set as the default, though. Considering that in Pathfinder even less dragons had the innate ability to disguise themselves as humans than they did in 3.5 already, it really throws a monkey wrench in someone trying to be as close to RAW as possible while still running games in established worlds (like Eberron, FR, or even my homebrew, where a monarch's spouse was actually a gold dragon for decades).
At least, if I really wanted to rely upon rules supplements rather than just waving my DM wand anyway, I'd have Dragons of Eberron to provide me with a feat for dragons to take to allow them to change into humanoid forms. I hadn't actually noticed the distinct reduction of duration before now, though. That is something of a "whahuah?" since I was under the impression that Paizo was really big on keeping the traditions of D&D's legacy alive, and this was certainly a major one. What's next? The discontinuation of Vancian casting? (crosses fingers.)
|
Creative Director
|
Yeah, it's a bummer that that was set as the default, though. Considering that in Pathfinder even less dragons had the innate ability to disguise themselves as humans than they did in 3.5 already, it really throws a monkey wrench in someone trying to be as close to RAW as possible while still running games in established worlds (like Eberron, FR, or even my homebrew, where a monarch's spouse was actually a gold dragon for decades).
At least, if I really wanted to rely upon rules supplements rather than just waving my DM wand anyway, I'd have Dragons of Eberron to provide me with a feat for dragons to take to allow them to change into humanoid forms. I hadn't actually noticed the distinct reduction of duration before now, though. That is something of a "whahuah?" since I was under the impression that Paizo was really big on keeping the traditions of D&D's legacy alive, and this was certainly a major one. What's next? The discontinuation of Vancian casting? (crosses fingers.)
That's the thing... not even Eberron or Forgotten Realms is strictly "RAW" by the core 3.5 book. A campaign world is allowed to break or rewrite rules as it needs in order to do what it needs to do. If you play a FR game using Pathfinder rules, you SHOULD give dragons the ability to maintain humanoid form at will. That's the beauty of the system.
As for "keeping the traditions of D&D's legacy alive... if you look at it the way I do, the fact that dragons in Pathfinder are dragons and don't spend lots of time disguised as humans IS true to D&D's legacy, because to me, that legacy is Greyhawk.
As for "keeping the traditions of D&D's legacy alive... if you look at it the way I do, the fact that dragons in Pathfinder are dragons and don't spend lots of time disguised as humans IS true to D&D's legacy, because to me, that legacy is Greyhawk.
Okay, sure, but
Gold dragons are able to dwell in any clime, but their lairs are always of solid stone - whether a cave or a castle. Although they love precious metals and gems and use jewels and pearls as nourishment, all gold dragons are lawful, just and good. They are able to assume the form of animals or the guise of humanity, for they can polymorph themselves without harm. It is in some other form that they are typically encountered.
Don't get me wrong, I think Krynnian silver dragons and half-dragons are weird, and I think FR has way too much dragon-on-humanoid hot action going on. But polymorphed gold dragons are an ancient trope in D&D terms.
With the information in this thread, the existence of draconic bloodline sorcerers now has some even more.. troubling implications. Especially if they belong to a bloodline of dragons that don't get polymorph or change shape.
|
Creative Director
|
| 28 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
The more I think of this problem, the more I'm coming to think that the change shape universal monster rule needs some FAQ treatment.
Because as it stands, a doppelganger's change shape ability will expire a few minutes after it falls asleep. And that's certainly not how that monster's supposed to work. In fact, the more I look at the change shape ability, the more I think that things like duration, target, and the like are NOT intended to use the spell's defaults. If they were, then every monster would have an effective caster level listed for their change shape ability.
My suggestion and preference for how change shape should work is to say that when a creature uses change shape, it can remain in its new form as long as it wants. This lets things like succubi or doppelgangers remain in their disguise for an entire night without having to stay up all night. And it allows dragons to move in to humanoid societies without worrying about durations—they can only assume humanoid form 3 times a day, but once they get a form they like, they can stay in that form for however long they want.
I'm relatively sure, having looked at how all of these shapechanging monsters function, that this is the correct interpretation of the change shape rules, and its CERTAINLY the way that the ability should work from a story viewpoint.
So fans of dragons who stay in human form for a long time? It still works! And there was much rejoicing!
I'm gonna hit the FAQ flag on this post; other folks who want to see this show up in the FAQ officially should hit the flag as well. I've already sent emails to Sean, Jason, and Erik, in any event, so hopefully this'll end up in the FAQ someday soon. In any event... there ya go.
I'm gonna hit the FAQ flag on this post; other folks who want to see this show up in the FAQ officially should hit the flag as well. I've already sent emails to Sean, Jason, and Erik, in any event, so hopefully this'll end up in the FAQ someday soon. In any event... there ya go.
I hit the FAQ flag on this post, but got an error saying "There was a problem flagging this post". Not sure what the problem was, but consider this post an additional flag.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
My suggestion and preference for how change shape should work is to say that when a creature uses change shape, it can remain in its new form as long as it wants. This lets things like succubi or doppelgangers remain in their disguise for an entire night without having to stay up all night. ..
Wait a minute. I don't know which is more disturbing: that Succubi are the only outsiders who need to sleep, or that a Succubus in human guise is actually getting some down-time during the night!
Wait a minute. I don't know which is more disturbing: that Succubi are the only outsiders who need to sleep, or that a Succubus in human guise is actually getting some down-time during the night!
My suggestion and preference for how change shape should work is to say that when a creature uses change shape, it can remain in its new form as long as it wants. This lets things like succubi or doppelgangers remain in their disguise for an entire night without having to stay up all night. ..
I'll say what I've told a huge number of players and/or party members when my character has had a ring of sustenance and still insists on taking 8 hours of sleep. Just because I don't have to sleep doesn't mean that I don't want to sleep. I figure it's the same with succubi, particularly when trying to pretend to be a mortal.
|
Creative Director
|
Wait a minute. I don't know which is more disturbing: that Succubi are the only outsiders who need to sleep, or that a Succubus in human guise is actually getting some down-time during the night!
My suggestion and preference for how change shape should work is to say that when a creature uses change shape, it can remain in its new form as long as it wants. This lets things like succubi or doppelgangers remain in their disguise for an entire night without having to stay up all night. ..
When I talk about succubi and sleeping, I'm not actually talking about closing your eyes and resting for 8 hours.
This lets things like succubi... remain in their disguise... without having to stay up all night.
Incubi, meanwhile, are all about staying up all night. ;)
With the information in this thread, the existence of draconic bloodline sorcerers now has some even more.. troubling implications. Especially if they belong to a bloodline of dragons that don't get polymorph or change shape.
All dragons have the option of casting polymorph if they're old enough.
The more I think of this problem, the more I'm coming to think that the change shape universal monster rule needs some FAQ treatment.
Because as it stands, a doppelganger's change shape ability will expire a few minutes after it falls asleep. And that's certainly not how that monster's supposed to work. In fact, the more I look at the change shape ability, the more I think that things like duration, target, and the like are NOT intended to use the spell's defaults. If they were, then every monster would have an effective caster level listed for their change shape ability.
My suggestion and preference for how change shape should work is to say that when a creature uses change shape, it can remain in its new form as long as it wants. This lets things like succubi or doppelgangers remain in their disguise for an entire night without having to stay up all night. And it allows dragons to move in to humanoid societies without worrying about durations—they can only assume humanoid form 3 times a day, but once they get a form they like, they can stay in that form for however long they want.
I'm relatively sure, having looked at how all of these shapechanging monsters function, that this is the correct interpretation of the change shape rules, and its CERTAINLY the way that the ability should work from a story viewpoint.
So fans of dragons who stay in human form for a long time? It still works! And there was much rejoicing!
I'm gonna hit the FAQ flag on this post; other folks who want to see this show up in the FAQ officially should hit the flag as well. I've already sent emails to Sean, Jason, and Erik, in any event, so hopefully this'll end up in the FAQ someday soon. In any event... there ya go.
Thank you!! :-D