In a recent encounter, our 4th-level party fought a genie and a band of gnolls.
During the fight, the gnolls would delay and divide the party while the genie would fight us one on one. At one point, my fighter found himself facing no less than 5 gnolls at once. While attempting to get away from them I picked up a large round table and flipped it up and over them attempting to flatten about 4 of them with it. Once they were prone I would be momentarily free enough to assist my comrade in fighting the genie.
I missed by rolling a 3.
I soon found myself prone and surrounded by gnolls. I fought defensively and made use of combat expertise to stand up. They tried taking me out with AoO's and aid another, but my pumped up AC protected me rather well.
Once up I tumbled out of their "circle of death" and over the up turned table. I then kicked the table at their legs hoping to trip them up, thereby giving me time to get away form the mob and help my friends.
I failed again by rolling a 4.
By the end of the evening I had a number of players making fun of me because, rather than fight them normally, I was doing weird table flipping stuff. "If you had just attacked them normally, you would have killed them" they say.
Because of a bad series of rolls, the other players now see me as tactically stupid and useless as a fighter--even though had I rolled higher I could have taken out an entire group of gnolls in a single attack. I mentioned that had I been making normal attacks with those same die rolls, the outcome would have been identical, but their view of me and my effectiveness seems set nonetheless.
How does one get past mistaken perceptions such as this? People seem to get the wrong idea about me ALL THE TIME.
For example, I play a witch named Hama in another game (same player group) who relies on a lot of save or screw spells and an ungodly Charisma for super-DCs. However, because the GM rolls rather well when it comes to saves, Hama, like my fighter, is seen as a useless addition to the party. It doesn't matter that she has made significant roleplaying contributions towards the party's goals or that her DCs are so high that equal-CR enemies only have a 10% chance of saving, only that she can't seem to take down a single target without spending two or three rounds casting spell at it (which is what can happen when the GM gets a few lucky rolls). *rolls eyes*
I find mis-perceptions to be a growing problem out of game as well. Like many people, I am socially inept and don't always say things right--my words often come off the wrong way. I recently made a joke at our table about the "Are goblin babies and children evil" thread on these boards. I told them about the discussion and said that the verdict was still out on goblin babies (thereby implying that normal children had already been proven to be evil). However, due to the way I worded it, they all now think of me as someone who would condone killing non-goblin children. No one really laughed...
Which I find is weird, because we are a group of people that have been known to tell some really sick jokes at times (being college students and all). A friend and fellow player told a horrible joke once and everyone laughed. I followed suit with my own dirty little joke and I got a bunch of disapproving looks. I. just. don't. get. it.
I try and give some friendly advice about an alternate tactic better suited to a situation in-game, or I remind the other players not to forget the minor bonuses that my buff spell gives them. More often than not, they take it as me "telling them how to play their characters" or "putting them down by implying they don't know the rules." They don't seem to realize that I am simply trying to be friendly and helpful, or that if they continually forget about the small buffs I give them, they have just invalidated my character's actions so of course I'm going to make sure they are taken into account!
It always seems to be lose lose with me. Somebody else comes up with something creative (in game or out) or suggests something cool, then they get a pat on the back or what not. Me? Not a chance. Due to past events (I can only surmise), their perceptions of me will likely be forever skewed.
Have any of you had similar problems? And if so, how did you deal with or fix it?
People are worthless
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I have a friend like that, he plays in the same group as me. His big problem is simply he sucks at talking to people. He says things in weird ways often taking twice as long to say something than it should. He is also often not real clear cause he likes to use flowery words but isn't good at it. He has a simpler rep, the other players see his character as a net zero at best and often as dead weight they have to drag along.
So in short a lot of it is not what you say or do, but how you say or do it. As far as advice to help? Sorry I have none my friend has asked me and beyond saying what I have said just now, not much I can say.
I have a friend like that, he plays in the same group as me. His big problem is simply he sucks at talking to people. He says things in weird ways often taking twice as long to say something than it should. He is also often not real clear cause he likes to use flowery words but isn't good at it. He has a simpler rep, the other players see his character as a net zero at best and often as dead weight they have to drag along.
Flowery words? I have a huge vocabulary which I make good use of. Do you think that might be part of it? I know for a fact that I sometimes say things in twice the time than it should have taken.
I don't know about flowery words, but personally, in the past i've found that when i talk sometimes i get blank stares. Now i find myself subconciously gauging people's faces when i talk and changing my words halfway through a sentence if i feel people aren't getting me.
Which pisses me off in a way because i want to speak as accurately as i can. If you're saying big words unnecessarily tho, that's another thing. Whatever word is most appropriate IMO.
As far as in-game dismissiveness goes, i empathise with you entirely. I have often been told that my tactics were ineffective or when i declare my actions i often get met with incredulous stares. Then i have to out-of-game explain why i'm doing what i'm doing. Nowadays i don't bother, and just simply say "I'm playing my character".
And btw, great tactics with the table, don't listen to their BS, if it had've worked (and it will, just keep thinking/fighting creatively) they'd be amazed. In fact, if someone said that to me these days, i'd tell them to stop being so boring.."How should we play? Hit/Miss/Hit/Miss...wow, edge of your seat"!?! :/
In short, don't stress about what other people are saying, just play your character the way you think s/he should be played.
People are worthlessToo true, brother/sister.
-1
I used to think this too, but i've found that it's a minority of people that intentionally make life hard for others.
More often than not, we're all just struggling in our own way.
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People are worthlessToo true, brother/sister.-1
I used to think this too, but i've found that it's a minority of people that intentionally make life hard for others.
More often than not, we're all just struggling in our own way.
Eek, I suppose I shouldn't assume o.O
I had assumed karlbadmanners was implying these people, or people like them, were worthless. People in general aren't worthless. I'd be insulting myself there :P
I have a friend like that, he plays in the same group as me. His big problem is simply he sucks at talking to people. He says things in weird ways often taking twice as long to say something than it should. He is also often not real clear cause he likes to use flowery words but isn't good at it. He has a simpler rep, the other players see his character as a net zero at best and often as dead weight they have to drag along.Flowery words? I have a huge vocabulary which I make good use of. Do you think that might be part of it? I know for a fact that I sometimes say things in twice the time than it should have taken.
My roommie is a very intelligent guy. He also knows it. For him, he never understands why he turns people away. (I've known him and his family for YEARS) One of his "irratating" quirks is giving unasked for advice. And often expounding a simple, "that's what I'd do, too" into a four to five minute dissertation.
He recently started some group therapy. They suggested that he comes across as arrogant, and to try waiting before speaking in social situations. ( I think he internally counts to five and tries to use the KISS principle in paring down his replies)
As for your being perceived as incompetent player, I don't know. Maybe use the KISS principle in your gaming style with that group. Some groups like thinking of alternative stratgies..others like chess. Maybe your group is happier with the basic hack and slash and no stretching the rules. I've got a player that always pushes boundaries. "Telekenisis.. I could exert the force directly on the heart... or push thier eyes in!!" Some games are just more conducive to that style... Amber diceless for instance :)
Anyway, Good Luck, sir. It seems to have hit a nerve. When gaming hits me that way.. I take a break. One of my breaks lasted six years
wasgreg
But even saying that these people are worthless is assuming a lot, and pretty harsh too, IMO.
All i was saying was that it's very easy to generalise and judge people, but very often, when you see their perspective, they're not the a#@!holes that you think.
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'spose I should actually add something useful to this thread, as I seem to have overlooked that so far o.O lol
You're not alone, Ravingdork. Luckily, my home group is pretty nice and social, yet we certainly have the party's "tacticians". I've definitely experienced the WTF-ness emanating from other players from time to time... even when something I do would be perfectly in-line with my character, and when it doesn't have a negative impact on the other PCs.
As far as in-game dismissiveness goes, i empathise with you entirely. I have often been told that my tactics were ineffective or when i declare my actions i often get met with incredulous stares. Then i have to out-of-game explain why i'm doing what i'm doing. Nowadays i don't bother, and just simply say "I'm playing my character".
That line == I'm f*%@$ing memorizing it! Seriously. :D
But even saying that these people are worthless is assuming a lot, and pretty harsh too, IMO.
All i was saying was that it's very easy to generalise and judge people, but very often, when you see their perspective, they're not the a#@!holes that you think.
Eh, yeah, I see your point.
I have a friend like that, he plays in the same group as me. His big problem is simply he sucks at talking to people. He says things in weird ways often taking twice as long to say something than it should. He is also often not real clear cause he likes to use flowery words but isn't good at it. He has a simpler rep, the other players see his character as a net zero at best and often as dead weight they have to drag along.Flowery words? I have a huge vocabulary which I make good use of. Do you think that might be part of it? I know for a fact that I sometimes say things in twice the time than it should have taken.
Have you guys considered that you know each other in real life?
Please don't take it the wrong way, but to take game characters as an analogy, it sounds like you have high Int but low Cha. I suggest that you try to rebrand your image a bit. Talk less, and simpler. Keep what you say on the warm and entertaining - but emphasize subtlety and quiet enjoyment. Don't try to take a spot in the lime light. Get a couple of lucky rolls. Resist temptation to explain (at least excessively) - the results will, statistically, speak for themselves. Helping out a party member in trouble will go a longer way than single-handedly taking down the encounter.
This really comes down to an image problem. Almost no single thing you do can change that - change relies on a steady and consistent shift in behavior that will hopefully be well received. This doesn't happen over night. So put that mind to good use and figure out a way to rebrand yourself.
If you feel that this would violate your inner id, that is fine too.
D&D explains life!!!
I lol'd.
Good stuff
Lorekeeper has some pretty good thoughts up there. *waves from down the thread*
wasgreg
So from an in game perspective the characters saw your character (fighter) flipping a table, falling over, getting up and then kicking a table to no effect at some gnolls (but at least keeping them occupied--that is a benefit to the group). To me I see no problem with them 'in game' saying "why are you fighting with a table, just use your sword." Perception is important in games- it IS reality from the characters point of view. There is no point saying but I rolled a 4 and a 3. That is out of character speak.
The same with your spellcaster- to everyone around it seems you spent 2 or 3 rounds casting spells to little effect. Why cant they say 'man you should learn some more effective spells. If you feel your GM is 'fudging' take more damaging spells- that way when you do 20hp's damage it has some effect.
I had a player in a game I ran who started life owning a rapier, he fought some goblins and essentially couldn't roll above a 7. He complained about how rapiers are obviously too 'flimsy' sold it and bought a short sword. Later when being attacked by a crab he stabbed it with the shortsword quite successfully - hence proving to the whole party that shortswords are good reliable weapons- not like rapiers. He also had a sequence of good rolls with javelins- so everyone considers him to be 'deadly with javelins'.
Similarly the party came up against a bodak- they all rolled their saves against it's death stare, it couldn't hit, they rolled well & it died in short order. Hence they consider bodaks to be 'weak undead'. Some of the players actually know how lucky they were on their saves but as far as they are concerned Bodak hunting is money for old rope.
So this is a lengthy way of saying - go with the actual results of your actions.
On the deeper issue of what appears to be a bit of disrespect from your playing group my advice is to accept the advice of the others in the group initially- maybe for a session or two.
1. Your fighter should not go for home run actions (taking out 4 gnolls in one action) but just chip away with your main weapon.
2. Your spellcaster should not go for home run spells - try a few spells that chip away a bit.
3. save the home run type actions for no more than 1 or 2 per session and when you do it say you are going to try a long shot- so it distinguishes from your other actions (perhpas with your spell caster ask the GM to roll this one save out in front for more dramatic effect)
If you are not going for home runs all the time -when they work they can be more unique- I suspect you will have more success.
see what happens. If after taking their advice they are still giving you a hard time about your actions you can raise it with them that you have tried their ways and they are still not happy.
Good luck
Ravingdork: How well do you know these people? Have you been with the group long and has it always been this way? Have you tried talking to them directly about this situation? If you talk to them be sure to do a good share of listening.
Perhaps they feel insecure or inferior to you superior intellect… Not saying that they are imbeciles in any way, but that they feel threatened.
I agree with LoreKeeper somewhat on his advice, but not everybody is a chameleon and some people would have comfort or even pride issues about who they are. LoreKeeper gives you a good starting point with speaking less and more simply. You should give it a go if you don’t feel comfortable talking to your group about how you feel mistreated.
I agree with Werecorpse on his homerun bit. Excellent points. And with his way of saying ‘Tables are not very effective weapons.’ Your fellow party members are seeing your characters actions in a certain light.
Keep track of their math either mentally or written on a piece of paper for the purpose of knowing when to remind them of their bonuses from your spells. For example; without any bonuses from you, (provided you can see it) RogueX rolls a 13 on a d20 and declares a result of 18 (GM declares a success), you know that he has a +5 (for that action). Now if you can, keep track of the bonuses you provide. When RogueX rolls a 11 on a d20 and declares a 16 (GM declares a failure), remind RogueX that he has a bonus from ‘X’ effect
(say +2) which makes 18 (success). However only remind them if it is going to make a difference and before the GM moves on too far. I'm not saying keep full copies of their characters but try to gauge it I guess. You'll come to know which people are forgetful and which ones are on top of things.
Stay creative. Nice try with the table bty! :)
I agree wholeheartedly with Werecorpse about talking/thinking 'in-game'.
But i'm not sure doing things 'their way' is the answer. But that's just me, i guess i'm stubborn that way.
My advice would always be stick to your guns, just don't draw them unless needed.
@Ravingdork: Although the table-trick proved ineffective for that particular fight, I must say that it proved to be an interesting and imaginative way to deal with the situation. Mechanical hit/miss combats can be boring, anyway . . .
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I'm pretty jaded from gaming at a local store where we'd inevitably get one player who wanted to 'do something creative' that generally was horribly ineffective (and not just because of bad rolls), so I'm probably one of the people who'd twitch if you spent too much time on unorthodox tactics, if only because of reliving past traumas...
The party is under attack! Bandits erupt from pits in the ground all around you!
"I climb up a tree and fire arrows down at them!"
"Right. Round 1, you run to a tree."
Fighting occurs.
"Round 2, make a climb check."
More fighting.
"Round 3, you ready the bow you took from the hobgoblins and can take a shot." (GM was very generous, allowing the PC to climb 20 ft. up a tree in one action.)
"Darn, I missed!"
"Because you aren't proficient in bows, being a Kensai with double specialization in that awesome magic katana you left on the ground, probably..."
/headdesk
And then there was the classic, "A vampire attacks the party during the night!" "I draw a crossbow bolt and stick it in the fire, once it catches on fire, I'm gonna shoot it at the vampire!" (Fortunately he got charmed, and was unarmed when he attacked the party, having a burning stick in his hand. The combat was resolved with a crotch-kicking contest as two unarmed fighters attempted to pummel each other to death without weapons...)
Why can't I ever get the clever ones who throw a tanglefoot bag and then a summon swarm, or caltops into an area of grease, so that the people who fall down get a faceful of jumpin' jacks?
(...The combat was resolved with a crotch-kicking contest as two unarmed fighters attempted to pummel each other to death without weapons...)
I am now leaning over my bench, holding my sides and laughing hysterically at the image of Redgar and Tordek kicking each other in the Jimmies...
Thank you for yet another surreal D&D image that is now engraved on the inside of my skull, along with all the horrors the Mature Forum of 3.5 D&D Forums gave me.
So from an in game perspective the characters saw your character (fighter) flipping a table, falling over, getting up and then kicking a table to no effect at some gnolls (but at least keeping them occupied--that is a benefit to the group). To me I see no problem with them 'in game' saying "why are you fighting with a table, just use your sword." Perception is important in games- it IS reality from the characters point of view. There is no point saying but I rolled a 4 and a 3. That is out of character speak.
I like your points, but most of the way the players come at me is via out of game speak. So that is what I defend myself with in turn.
Had they simply been roleplaying their characters with their scalding remarks, it would have been fine, even appropriate.
Ravingdork: How well do you know these people? Have you been with the group long and has it always been this way? Have you tried talking to them directly about this situation? If you talk to them be sure to do a good share of listening.
...
However only remind them [of your buffs] if it is going to make a difference and before the GM moves on too far. I'm not saying keep full copies of their characters but try to gauge it I guess. You'll come to know which people are forgetful and which ones are on top of things.
Stay creative. Nice try with the table bty! :)
I've known them for years. They are by and large the only people I've played with in almost a decade. It wasn't always like this, only in the past year or three. It seems like they are getting meaner, and I've been told I've grown increasingly socially inept.
I guess I do remind them of the bonuses even when it might not matter. I'll try and pay closer attention and only bring it up when it makes a difference from now on.
It doesn't help that I am hard of hearing and constantly miss small, but important details.
I'm pretty jaded from gaming at a local store where we'd inevitably get one player who wanted to 'do something creative' that generally was horribly ineffective (and not just because of bad rolls), so I'm probably one of the people who'd twitch if you spent too much time on unorthodox tactics, if only because of reliving past traumas...
Why is it that so many roleplayers want to kill creativity?* I've noticed a growing trend of GMs who will, when doing something creative, apply huge penalties to the check or make the DCs so high that it is guaranteed to fail. I can understand a -4 penalty to the table for using an improvised weapon and maybe making it a full round action to throw since it is so large and unwieldly, but more than that and you defeat the point of the cool action by making its possibility of success nigh impossible.
I once brought a flying peryton to the ground by hitting its antlers with a rope and grappling hook. It was raping us prior to that on account that we didn't have much in the way of ranged weapons at the time. I needed a natural 20 to hit and nailed it. Nobody seemed to notice or care. :(
* It's probably due to World of Warcraft and D&D 4E... *shakes head*
Maybe the trick was just a silly in their eyes even if you made a good roll, I am not sure what table we are talking about, but a table you can kick about was supposed to knock down 4 gnolls with a decent roll ?
You might be a smart guy, but maybe not a genius, your huge vocabulary might be above average at best, maybe they doubt your common sense, maybe you care too much what they think, maybe they are just mocking you for fun.. seriously my gaming group does this on a regular basis, but everyone rolls with the fun and after a session or two it is forgotten.
If it really bothers you try to change the way you speak or try to sway people to your way of thinking.
In a recent encounter, our 4th-level party fought a genie and a band of gnolls.
By the end of the evening I had a number of players making fun of me because, rather than fight them normally, I was doing weird table flipping stuff. "If you had just attacked them normally, you would have killed them" they say.
The problem with fancy tactics like these is that the require a lot of GM adjudication. Look at the table example. You're facing FIVE gnolls. Okay, so let's presume you get enough space between you and the gnolls to avoid Attacks of Opportunity for grabbing and flipping the table (if not, you should have eaten five attacks of opportunity - bad plan). Grabbing the table would require a Move Action, and probably two free hands (or you've got the table between you and the Gnolls). So your first round (move to table, grab table) is gone. And you're unarmed. So the next round you attack with said table (a standard action, with what amounts to an improvised net, really). Would you squish all the gnolls and get a chance to get away? How big is this table?
So many variables and what ifs and judgement calls on the part of the GM. D&D isn't a cinematic game - it uses grids and placement and movement and ranges very specifically - really, it's a skirmish miniatures game at its heart. When you start doing things 'fancy', you're going to run afoul of the rules, which will start to screw you over. It will take more time and more rolls, which just increases your chance of failure*.
*This is called (by our group) the 'Warhammer Effect', as in those games you have to roll to hit, roll to wound, and the enemy gets a roll to save - three chances for you to fail. Sometimes a dozen Kroot take down a Carnifex, but you gotta get DAMN LUCKY.
The trick here is to force the opposition to make more rolls, giving THEM more chances at failure. This is why spells like Grease and Black Tentacles are so nasty - they force lots of rolls on the opposition.
But you have a valid point. With the rolls you made, you wouldn't have killed ANY gnolls (3 and 4). But you probably did waste some time, as any of your tactics wouldn't realistically have hampered ALL the gnolls facing you - each gnoll occupies a square, so the table would have to be really huge to trap/trip all of them - even 10'x10' wouldn't be enough. I think your group is probably keying into that fact and that's why they're questioning your tactics. You seem to be trying to get too much out of creative combat.
Why is it that so many roleplayers want to kill creativity?
Most GMs will err on the side of making unusual stuff difficult. This is probably an unconscious effort to keep the shenanigans under control, as figuring out how to adjudicate this stuff fairly is hard and time consuming.
I once brought a flying peryton to the ground by hitting its antlers with a rope and grappling hook. It was raping us prior to that on account that we didn't have much in the way of ranged weapons at the time. I needed a natural 20 to hit and nailed it. Nobody seemed to notice or care.
Actually, this is GOOD tactics, and I have no idea why it would take a natural 20 to succeed (unless that was the roll needed to hit its AC). With a lasso or grappling hook, a standard combat maneuver check should be all that's required to get a grapple going. You'd have to haul him out of the air, of course, but it shouldn't be that hard.
A lot of stuff
I am assuming if you(one person) can flip a table at four creatures that are naturally stronger than you, and expect them to fall your DM runs a cinematic game, and in such a game a that tactic is valid. If he does not run a cinematic game I agree with the players.
As for the witch the DM may be fudging behind the screen so you don't ruin encounters, but of course there is no way to prove that. I would just argue the percent chance. It is not your fault that the DM rolls high. I think they just like giving you a hard time though or they dont see the game the same way you do. Next time don't correct their tactics, or you could also just ask them why they dont approve of your tactical ideas.
I think trying to be creative is great, so I will just add a few points.
Determine the play style of the group, and whether the DM is prepared for all the tactics you just tried, because one or the other may not want to go through all the abstract, or grey areas of the game, where you always have to go back to rules to determine what is allowed. In the same respect, when you perform a special maneuver, always do it for the benefit of another party member, versus trying to show your mastery of the game, while taking on multiple opponents. And always try to keeps things simple, and once in a while you can wow everyone with a special maneuver that saves the day. Those moments are remembered.
I tend to speak before I listen, so my greatest benefit is just knowing when to keep quiet and let someone else have a chance.
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It doesn't help that I am hard of hearing and constantly miss small, but important details.
I wonder if this is having more of an effect than you realize. Missing those small details that everyone else is aware of could be adding to your socially inept reputation.
Have you looked into having this corrected or improved with a hearing aid?
The problem with fancy tactics like these is that the require a lot of GM adjudication. Look at the table example. You're facing FIVE gnolls. Okay, so let's presume you get enough space between you and the gnolls to avoid Attacks of Opportunity for grabbing and flipping the table (if not, you should have eaten five attacks of opportunity - bad plan). Grabbing the table would require a Move Action, and probably two free hands (or you've got the table between you and the Gnolls). So your first round (move to table, grab table) is gone. And you're unarmed. So the next round you attack with said table (a standard action, with what amounts to an improvised net, really). Would you squish all the gnolls and get a chance to get away? How big is this table?
The size and weight of the table was never clarified, but we know it was made of strong wood and that it took up a 2x2 square area. I had ducked under it to avoid some archers on a balcony. That's when the 5 gnolls came marching up. I wanted to stand up, picking up the table on my hands and shoulders as I did so, and flip it on top of the approaching gnolls to essentially trip them. I described what I wanted to do, how I wanted to do it, and the desired effect, and the GM said I was welcome to attempt it, having me make a trip attack against the gnolls with a -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon.
My group constantly makes fun of everyone that does mistakes in-game because of poor rolls, and we even become intolerable if you have a bad streak of rolls. It's not fair, and being on the receiving end is harsh, but when you're not, man, is it funny!
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It can happen to the best of us. At my game table, people were bickering and questioning each other out of character so much in combat. And then the person would feel they have to justify their actions to others sceptisism... I got sick of it. I felt I had to ban any OOC chat in combat to stop people upsetting and pissing each other off.
I actually prefer to RP online and with people who aren't my close friends now- theres too many arguments and RL issues always filter into the game...
The problem with fancy tactics like these is that the require a lot of GM adjudication.In a recent encounter, our 4th-level party fought a genie and a band of gnolls.
By the end of the evening I had a number of players making fun of me because, rather than fight them normally, I was doing weird table flipping stuff. "If you had just attacked them normally, you would have killed them" they say.
Too true.
Ravingdork, you're probably playing the wrong game for this kind of stuff. As has been already said in this thread, D&D/Pathfinder is a tactical tabletop battle game, with some RP on the side.
Sure, sure, lots of groups play it in different ways, and some put a very heavy emphasis on RP and cinematic action, but the rules don't really support that play style very well. I haven't actually counted, but I'd estimate that about 75% of the core rulebook is about tactical table-top encounters, or rules to support those kinds of encounters.
Other games, those kinds of percentages are flipped, with few rules designed for tactical encounter resolution. If you want to assault gnolls with furniture, those other games are far more suited to it. But if you're playing Pathfinder, furniture is probably not the right solution.
Of course, your DM may agree with you. As for me, those gnolls would have brushed aside your table; you could have rolled improvised damage against one of them if your attack had been successful, and I might have let the table be an obstacle between you and the gnolls that they would either then sunder or move around to reach you, but that's as far I would have gone with it. Chances are, your sword would have been more effective on a successful hit. And then kicking the table at them to slow them down would not have worked at all; combatants can always go around stuff like that, or even over it (if, say, it blocked a narrow corridor or doorway), or just kick it back at you (which would have been just as ineffective as when you kicked it at them).
So, yeah, unless you're Superman and you were throwing a 1200 pound table on top of them, your tactic was doomed to fail in this game system. And if you are Superman, maybe you could have Power Attacked/Great Cleaved them with a melee weapon more effectively anyway.
Just for kicks, have you looked at Hero System or WFRP? I like those systems, though Pathfinder is my preference. But sometimes those are good diversions for the more cinematic feel that is lacking from the D&D game and its derivatives.
The problem with fancy tactics like these is that the require a lot of GM adjudication. Look at the table example. You're facing FIVE gnolls. Okay, so let's presume you get enough space between you and the gnolls to avoid Attacks of Opportunity for grabbing and flipping the table (if not, you should have eaten five attacks of opportunity - bad plan). Grabbing the table would require a Move Action, and probably two free hands (or you've got the table between you and the Gnolls). So your first round (move to table, grab table) is gone. And you're unarmed. So the next round you attack with said table (a standard action, with what amounts to an improvised net, really). Would you squish all the gnolls and get a chance to get away? How big is this table?
The size and weight of the table was never clarified, but we know it was made of strong wood and that it took up a 2x2 square area. I had ducked under it to avoid some archers on a balcony. That's when the 5 gnolls came marching up. I wanted to stand up, picking up the table on my hands and shoulders as I did so, and flip it on top of the approaching gnolls to essentially trip them. I described what I wanted to do, how I wanted to do it, and the desired effect, and the GM said I was welcome to attempt it, having me make a trip attack against the gnolls with a -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon.
Most GMs will err on the side of making unusual stuff difficult. This is probably an unconscious effort to keep the shenanigans under control, as figuring out how to adjudicate this stuff fairly is hard and time consuming.
Which is exactly the thing I am railing against up thread. If the GM's goal is to prevent future attempts, then they are succeeding. However, preventing such "shenanigans" in this fashion also crushes future creativity.
Actually, [beinging down the peryton with a grappling hook was] GOOD tactics, and I have no idea why it would take a natural 20 to succeed (unless that was the roll needed to hit its AC). With a lasso or grappling hook, a standard combat maneuver check should be all that's required to get a grapple going. You'd have to haul him out of the air, of course, but it shouldn't be that hard.
Another trip attempt with an improvised weapon (-4 penalty) with the provision that it would even work against a flying creature (since I would be yanking him out of the air). The beast's CMD was really high to start with and, with my -4 penalty, I needed a natural 20 to hit.
Another party member got the killing blow and, in the end, he was the one to get the high fives and slaps on the back even though I was the one to have made that possible.
I am assuming if you(one person) can flip a table at four creatures that are naturally stronger than you, and expect them to fall your DM runs a cinematic game, and in such a game a that tactic is valid. If he does not run a cinematic game I agree with the players.
As for the witch the DM may be fudging behind the screen so you don't ruin encounters, but of course there is no way to prove that. I would just argue the percent chance. It is not your fault that the DM rolls high. I think they just like giving you a hard time though or they dont see the game the same way you do. Next time don't correct their tactics, or you could also just ask them why they dont approve of your tactical ideas.
Now that you mention it, it does seem kind of hypocritical of them to question my tactics while getting on to me about trying to help them with their own tactics.
As for the witch, I don't think the GM is fudging so much as pitting us against hugely powerful opponents. We once fought four 9th-level half-celestial druids when we were (I think) level 7.
I was hoping to take them out as quickly as possible so as to minimize their damage to the party.
I doubt the GM was fudging to avoid the encounter ending too soon as I could only effect them one at a time with my deep slumber spell anyways.
I think trying to be creative is great, so I will just add a few points.
Determine the play style of the group, and whether the DM is prepared for all the tactics you just tried, because one or the other may not want to go through all the abstract, or grey areas of the game, where you always have to go back to rules to determine what is allowed. In the same respect, when you perform a special maneuver, always do it for the benefit of another party member, versus trying to show your mastery of the game, while taking on multiple opponents. And always try to keeps things simple, and once in a while you can wow everyone with a special maneuver that saves the day. Those moments are remembered.
I tend to speak before I listen, so my greatest benefit is just knowing when to keep quiet and let someone else have a chance.
We used to all be creative and descriptive. Now a days we don't even describe our successful attacks or dodges.
I also make a point of clearing many of my creative ideas with the GM first BEFORE bringing them to the table. For example, I briefly played an earth sorcerer with STONE SHAPE, which is really vague as to what it is capable of doing (if you've seen my thread, than you know what I mean). Before doing so, however, I talked to my GM about some of the ideas I had for the spell and we got it all cleared before the start of the game.
It doesn't help that I am hard of hearing and constantly miss small, but important details.
I wonder if this is having more of an effect than you realize. Missing those small details that everyone else is aware of could be adding to your socially inept reputation.
Have you looked into having this corrected or improved with a hearing aid?
I've been wearing hearing aids for nearly 15 years. I imagine my missing small details certainly adds to their frustration (and mine).
My group has one player who tends to have that perception. The problem is he gets over ambitious with his 'plans'. He once used half a dozen skill tricks, moved all around the board, climbed a wall propped himself between the cieling and floor in order to fire once with his bow. It was elaborate, it was silly, and it amounted to very little in terms of defeating the challenge. Another time, we were faced with a massive 12 headed hydra attacking the town outside a building we were in. The town guard were getting torn up by it. We all said, that thing looks scary. My character a fullplate paladin called out for us to move out together (the 2 heavy hitters would take some 3 rounds to get out there in the first place because of stairs, distance and armor). He proceeded to say he had a 'plan' telported out there (via tome of battle manuevers) and used a skill trick to feint the hydra into letting the town guard attack it. The nearly dead town guard did little, and he got 12 heads worth of hurt on the following turn while the paladin and fighter lumbered down the stairs.
I dont like discouraging creativity, but eventually, when you constantly fail doing things that are odd, players get annoyed. As a group you have to overcome challenges. If one player is constantly failing using unorthadox tactics, it makes it harder on everyone else. In character and out of character that is frustrating. Can you say for certain you wouldnt have hit with a regular attack if you hadnt taken that -4? If you realize your dm wont allow save or die, dont you think a change in tactics (or at least a conversation with the dm) is in order?
Assuming these people are your friends, I think it wouldnt take alot to shift this pereption. Just make sure your character does useful things in combat. Sure it can get old to just swing your sword, but if you kill a gnoll or two first, the move with the table, whether it succeeds or not will be better recieved. If you throw down a buff and a battlefield control spell first, and then try to save or die the bad guy, even if it fails the players will percieve your character (and you) as contributing more.
So basically what I am saying is try the more sure tactics first in combat, then when things dont seem dire, try the crazy tricks. If you dont you may find yourself on the wrong side of a 12 headed hydra.
The size and weight of the table was never clarified, but we know it was made of strong wood and that it took up a 2x2 square area. I had ducked under it to avoid some archers on a balcony. That's when the 5 gnolls came marching up. I wanted to stand up, picking up the table on my hands and shoulders as I did so, and flip it on top of the approaching gnolls to essentially trip them. I described what I wanted to do, how I wanted to do it, and the desired effect, and the GM said I was welcome to attempt it, having me make a trip attack against the gnolls with a -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon.
Yeah, that's the sort of thing that would work in a pulp-y movie - where all the enemies would group up to 'catch' the table and comedically fall down. But in D&D, each gnoll takes up a square, and they'd have to be in a 2x2 array for you to catch even 4 of the 5. It seems your GM rewards creative thinking, as he let you try, but you just had bad luck. In a more restrictive setting, gnoll positioning would be a huge factor - getting 2 of them might be the best you could've hoped for.
But even with GM permissiveness, this tactic wouldn't result for much. Assuming you have the initiative, you chuck the table, you trip them, they use a round to get up/out. Any table you could flip/throw/kick is not going to weigh enough to trap 5 gnolls for long. The only real advantage you gain is that you avoid being attacked by 5 gnolls for a full round - which isn't a bad thing, but the whole point of the exercise was to free you to go help your allies vs. the Djinn.
Again, I think you expected too much from the table tactics, and your friends called you on it. As for your Witch, IIRC your GM seems to suspiciously always make those save-or-suck/die rolls, and that's not your fault - it's like rolling natural 19's all the time but the monster has AC 55. Not much you can do about that.
You mentioned you've been gaming with them for a decade. I also got the impression that these perceptions and comments have built up slowly over time. As someone who's been on both the giving and receiving end of this at different times, I can say it is quite possible your friends don't realize how nasty they've become or that it actually bothers you. Especially since it started out as something harmless, it's hard to tell when it crosses the line into hurtful. If they're good friends otherwise, take some time and just let them know what they are saying bothers you. Don't ask them to stop, don't ask them to tone it down, and don't say they're being mean. Just let them know that it's bothering you, and if they're friends, they'll tone it down, stop or work something out. (For example, by keeping such things purely IC where they belong.)
The other best thing you can do is stop caring what they think. The incident with the harpy, who cares that the guy who killed it got the glory? You know you helped, and sometimes that has to be enough.
If the DM is really on the ball, try talking to him about it. Sometimes an encounter or two that lets your character shine is all that's needed. Of course, he'd also have to make sure that it doesn't look like a setup.
Most GMs will err on the side of making unusual stuff difficult. This is probably an unconscious effort to keep the shenanigans under control, as figuring out how to adjudicate this stuff fairly is hard and time consuming.Which is exactly the thing I am railing against up thread. If the GM's goal is to prevent future attempts, then they are succeeding. However, preventing such "shenanigans" in this fashion also crushes future creativity.
Yeah, but there's the good and the bad shenanigans. For example, the grappling hook vs. pertyon trick is a good one - I'm not even sure why your GM ruled it as improvised - this is EXACTLY what grappling hooks are supposed to do, though he probably thought it was an exotic weapon, thus non-proficiency penalty.
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You're missing small details because you aren't focusing your attention on them, you're probably concentrating on the task at hand (whatever that may be at the time) and only "skimming" the conversation. They think you aren't listening, and they are probably right. When someone else starts talking, look at them and listen. No matter how stupid or inane it may be.
I reccommend studying people through interaction, also. That also helps you to pick up social cues, and with your intelligence you'll be perceptive enough to notice them. Just don't point it out to them that you can read their faces like a book.
You're missing small details because you aren't focusing your attention on them, you're probably concentrating on the task at hand (whatever that may be at the time) and only "skimming" the conversation. They think you aren't listening, and they are probably right. When someone else starts talking, look at them and listen. No matter how stupid or inane it may be.
They are a talkative group and the game often gets sidetracked by random discussion (sometimes even the GM is guilty of this), so differentiating between the important bits and the random hearsay can be difficult at best.
Shouldn't I be concentrating on the task at hand? If we aren't working towards an existing goal, then what the heck are we doing?
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I have a friend like that, he plays in the same group as me. His big problem is simply he sucks at talking to people. He says things in weird ways often taking twice as long to say something than it should. He is also often not real clear cause he likes to use flowery words but isn't good at it. He has a simpler rep, the other players see his character as a net zero at best and often as dead weight they have to drag along.Flowery words? I have a huge vocabulary which I make good use of. Do you think that might be part of it? I know for a fact that I sometimes say things in twice the time than it should have taken.
Well first IMHO if you are anything like my friend and it sounds like it. There is no one problem, there is a host of little problems that all add up. He has the same problem as you with dice. He is the unluckiest person i have ever meet. Which is part of the reason why he gets dismissed in games, cause even when he does come up with something good to try. He typically fails cause of the dice rolls and then he just looks like he is making it harder on himself, when everyone knows he rolls bad anyways. So decreases his odds. Not saying that is fair or true but that seems to be the common perception.
It also doesn't help that he is very much a out of the box thinker and the rest of the groups are more traditional tactics thinkers. A example he once has a Wizard use fly to fly up, use two illusion spells, one to make him look like a demon and another to look like he vomited forth a swarm of demonic hornets. The gnolls all failed a save and believed the illusions and then failed a moral check and ran away.
So inventive and it won the fight with out fighting, but the rest of the party complained cause one fireball or fear would have likely did the same thing and only used up one spell.
Where as the rest of the group is more, we back up to a doorway and keep the fighters up front to bottleneck the enemy. So as you can see two very different takes on tactics.
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Have you guys considered that you know each other in real life?
Nah cause the guy I know is not a forum poster, he got burned out on it long ago cause he kept getting into arguments constantly online, typically from people taking what he said the wrong way. Then refusing to except that's that how he meant it, least that's what he says.
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You're missing small details because you aren't focusing your attention on them, you're probably concentrating on the task at hand (whatever that may be at the time) and only "skimming" the conversation. They think you aren't listening, and they are probably right. When someone else starts talking, look at them and listen. No matter how stupid or inane it may be.They are a talkative group and the game often gets sidetracked by random discussion (sometimes even the GM is guilty of this), so differentiating between the important bits and the random hearsay can be difficult at best.
Shouldn't I be concentrating on the task at hand? If we aren't working towards an existing goal, then what the heck are we doing?
Then say something when you are thinking or people will think you heard all the ideas.
And if you didn't, clarify: "Are we doing plan A or B? A was just a joke? Ok, B it is then."
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I dont like discouraging creativity, but eventually, when you constantly fail doing things that are odd, players get annoyed. As a group you have to overcome challenges. If one player is constantly failing using unorthadox tactics, it makes it harder on everyone else. In character and out of character that is frustrating.
That seems to be in my group one of the bigger complaints the rest have with said other guy. Me i run more often than not and even when I play it doesn't bother me but I am in the minority in my group.
A fellow player made an attack with a reach weapon. Due to an intervening barrier, the GM ruled that the target had cover from the attack and as such, the attack missed.
After looking at the board for a moment I replied, "I don't think that's quite right." I then quickly quoted the rules for cover. The GM, then realizing that he had made a mistake due to the angles and perception, reversed his ruling and the attack ended up succeeding, slaying the target and saving the day.
Now everyone hates me.
Well, "hate" might be an exaggeration. Nonetheless, the GM doesn't like that I went against him, nor that I did it in front of the other players (though this is true, it's not like I shouted him down).
The player, whose attack hit solely due to my intervention, was upset with me because I had slowed the game down with my "rules lawyering" for about 30 seconds.
Most of my fellow players/GMs are of the opinion that these forums have been a bad influence on me and that my being here long ago destroyed my social ability and imagination.
I am more confused than ever. I seem to be the only one being creative (in respect to combat encounters) and I'm the one being called unimaginative!
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A fellow player made an attack with a reach weapon. Due to an intervening barrier, the GM ruled that the target had cover from the attack and as such, the attack missed.
After looking at the board for a moment I replied, "I don't think that's quite right." I then quickly quoted the rules for cover. The GM, then realizing that he had made a mistake due to the angles and perception, reversed his ruling and the attack ended up succeeding, slaying the target and saving the day.
Now everyone hates me.
Well, "hate" might be an exaggeration. Nonetheless, the GM doesn't like that I went against him, nor that I did it in front of the other players (though this is true, it's not like I shouted him down).
The player, whose attack hit solely due to my intervention, was upset with me because I had slowed the game down with my "rules lawyering" for about 30 seconds.
Most of my fellow players/GMs are of the opinion that these forums have been a bad influence on me and that my being here long ago destroyed my social ability and imagination.
I am more confused than ever. I seem to be the only one being creative (in respect to combat encounters) and I'm the one being called unimaginative!
That's kind of terrible.
Assuming you're not leaving out some important details (there are two sides to every story), it sounds like you could use some new (or different) friends. This kind of thing happens all the time at my table, and nobody gets upset about it.
That's kind of terrible.
Assuming you're not leaving out some important details (there are two sides to every story)...
To my knowledge, I worded my statement exactly as I've presented it here (though I am not known for great memory). Perhaps it was my body language or something?
Either your fellow players are jackasses, or you are startlingly bad at communicating. Probably some combination of the above.
I suspect it is a hefty bit of both.
I KNOW for a fact that I sometimes have trouble communicating (in part because I'm introverted and in part due to my disability). I also KNOW that many of my fellow players can be mean sometimes, even going so far as to say things like "you leave yourself open for it," "you're an easy target," or "you kind of had it coming."
Everyone kinda picks on everyone else in the group (it's just the way we are), but it seems like I get the brunt of it when it comes game time.