I KNOW for a fact that I sometimes have trouble communicating (in part because I'm introverted and in part due to my disability). I also KNOW that many of my fellow players can be mean sometimes, even going so far as to say things like "you leave yourself open for it," "you're an easy target," or "you kind of had it coming."Everyone kinda picks on everyone else in the group (it's just the way we are), but it seems like I get the brunt of it when it comes game time.
Now this i can give solid advice on. Depending on the group of friends, this varies for me, but among primarily male groups of friends in my experience it's there somewhere. This is a pack mentality and even the most enlightened of us with a certain set of anatomical elements is guilty of it. For the most part the jokes are not meant to be taken personal, but instead part of a natural jokeying for position in the group that all males do to some extent. The way to deal with that is fairly easy. Fire back. Think of the most common offenders in the group and what offends them. Next time you 'leave yourself open' be sure to point out whatever personal facts make that person or persons uncomfortable. If you do this for a fairly short period of time, the degree of 'openness' will balance out, and you will no longer be considered an 'easy' target.
Given that I am not aware of any other factors (I am not a direct witness, after all), this sums everything up to me:
I've been wearing hearing aids for nearly 15 years. I imagine my missing small details certainly adds to their frustration (and mine).It doesn't help that I am hard of hearing and constantly miss small, but important details.I wonder if this is having more of an effect than you realize. Missing those small details that everyone else is aware of could be adding to your socially inept reputation.
Have you looked into having this corrected or improved with a hearing aid?
If these so called friends are aware of your difficulties (and I suspect they are, since you are so free to share it online I'd imagine you aren't keeping it from them) they are flat out being jackasses.
((I had to delete what I wrote here because it was my jaded and cynical prediction of what has happened...))
It sounds like it is just about time for you to move on. To use a Shinedown lyric "sometimes goodbye is a second chance."
I'm not trying to say you are not at fault at all. But if they are no longer capable of cutting you slack over something that isn't in your ability to alter... They aren't worth the energy you are spending on trying to comprehend what is going on.
Question: What is the average age in the group that you are playing with? Is your own age higher or lower than this average?
My age is higher than average. I'm turning 26 this Saturday. Everyone else is between 22 and 24 years of age I think. We did have one player who was a year older than I am, but he stopped roleplaying with us about a year or two ago.
I'm not trying to say you are not at fault at all. But if they are no longer capable of cutting you slack over something that isn't in your ability to alter... They aren't worth the energy you are spending on trying to comprehend what is going on.
+1
I agree with a lot of what's been said above, but especially after this latest update, it sounds like this situation may have gotten too toxic to salvage. Take a break. Look for another group. Let your old group know that you'd be happy to come back if things change (assuming, of course, that you WOULD be happy to come back), but that the current situation just isn't fun anymore.
Games are meant to be fun. If your playing style doesn't mesh with your group's, or the social dynamic has poisoned your enjoyment, it may well be time to move on.
(Insert usual disclaimer about I'm not there, you are, and it's impossible to judge these things accurately at a remove, so discard above advice if it's not really applicable.)
My age is higher than average. I'm turning 26 this Saturday. Everyone else is between 22 and 24 years of age I think. We did have one player who was a year older than I am, but he stopped roleplaying with us about a year or two ago.
Sounds like you ought to take a lesson from that friend's book.
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That's kind of terrible.
Assuming you're not leaving out some important details (there are two sides to every story)...
To my knowledge, I worded my statement exactly as I've presented it here (though I am not known for great memory). Perhaps it was my body language or something?
Either your fellow players are jackasses, or you are startlingly bad at communicating. Probably some combination of the above.I suspect it is a hefty bit of both.
I KNOW for a fact that I sometimes have trouble communicating (in part because I'm introverted and in part due to my disability). I also KNOW that many of my fellow players can be mean sometimes, even going so far as to say things like "you leave yourself open for it," "you're an easy target," or "you kind of had it coming."
Everyone kinda picks on everyone else in the group (it's just the way we are), but it seems like I get the brunt of it when it comes game time.
Ok that part reminds me of this other guy. He had a way of how he talked, acted etc that tended to grate on people. He also tended to take things very personal and over react to stuff. Which only encouraged people to pick on him, cause they would do something fairly harmless and get a huge reaction. Which made them do it more and keep pushing things to see how he reacts. He is no longer in the circle of friends I meet him in. Why cause most people kept it up till there was a big blow up and he left the group.
I am not saying this is true of you but that was my first thought on reading that.
Ok that part reminds me of this other guy. He had a way of how he talked, acted etc that tended to grate on people. He also tended to take things very personal and over react to stuff. Which only encouraged people to pick on him, cause they would do something fairly harmless and get a huge reaction. Which made them do it more and keep pushing things to see how he reacts. He is no longer in the circle of friends I meet him in. Why cause most people kept it up till there was a big blow up and he left the group.
I strongly suspect that is what is happening here too. I don't have huge reactions and blow up (except for one regrettable incident a few years ago in which I punched hole in my own wall--they'll never let me live it down), but I do typically react and defend myself (which seems to only make me a bigger target).
In fact, I think this all started when I DID lose my cool about 2 years ago.
I'm beginning to think they might be pushing my buttons for little more reason then the hope of seeing me do something stupid again for their own entertainment.
Well is sounds like you may have to bite you tongue while you are playing a little, It also sounds like you have a different under standing of the game then your DM and players and my need to just go with the flow a little bit. The only person you have any real control over is your self, communication is a skill you just needs some more ranks in it, really it is a learned thing you may have some road block but you can figure it out. I would also try putting your self in there place and try to understand where they are coming from, because again you can do nothing to change there behavior only your own.
I say run your own game, and I think Dark_mistress is right, you may be just a little over sensitive to your friends jabs, I pretty much happens to every one.
bottom line is, if it is not fun don't play anymore.
Good Luck I will be praying for you (I know I a big Dork but this satiation suck for Raveingdork and if the message boards are all you got I think you could use some more help)
My group has one player who tends to have that perception. The problem is he gets over ambitious with his 'plans'.
I've seen this happen, too. It can be blast in some games, but not so much when playing D&D (where fights rarely last longer than 3 rounds, so coming up with a complex multi-stage plan is just dragging things out most of the time).
Hmmmm. Hard stuff here.
I will give a few general bits of advice based on mistakes I've made in life.
Don't "go for the jugular" when it comes to insulting banter. You might "win", but it isn't something to be proud of. There is nothing wrong with firing back, (in fact you should), but don't nuke the person.
People change, especially from age 15-25. They might always be your friends, and you might have gone through a lot together, but you might find that hanging out with them isn't what it used to be. You may reconnect with them later in life, but it might be time to follow your own path for a while.
Remember that being correct is often unpopular. I don't mean that in the moral sense (at least in this case). Your example of quoting the rules for reach weapons is a great example. While you were correct about the rules, you should not have interrupted the GM the way you did. Probably the best thing would just be to ask, "are you sure there is cover involved?", then let it go. At the end of the night, or after the battle, then bring up the issue in a non-confrontational way.
I don't want to make too big a deal of this, but it is really the only thing I really know about you: You push the rules in strange ways. In my group a character with wretched physical stats and a whopping casting stat would get on peoples nerves. Other things that push the limits of the (intended) rules would also have to be handled with care. Again, this may be totally different in your group, but it might be something to to think about if others play differently.
Again, people change, your friends may regret the way they treated you for the rest of their lives, or you may wonder why you acted the way you did. Don't shut people out for life, but feel free to take a break.
PS - I found reading How to win friends and influence people to be a helpful guidebook for dealing with people. Give it a chance.
EDIT: Oh yeah, kicking the table... COOL! As long as you don't try stuff like that all the time, I would love to see more of that at my table. We used to do more of that in 1st Edition. When I first started playing 3.5, I had a monk that didn't know what to do against a beholder. I did have a large empty sack in my equipment, so I attempted to "bag" the beholder. Everyone was a little skeptical, but a natural 20 confirmed that I made the touch attack, and the second natural 20 made it something we still talk about.
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Ok that part reminds me of this other guy. He had a way of how he talked, acted etc that tended to grate on people. He also tended to take things very personal and over react to stuff. Which only encouraged people to pick on him, cause they would do something fairly harmless and get a huge reaction. Which made them do it more and keep pushing things to see how he reacts. He is no longer in the circle of friends I meet him in. Why cause most people kept it up till there was a big blow up and he left the group.I strongly suspect that is what is happening here too. I don't have huge reactions and blow up (except for one regrettable incident a few years ago in which I punched hole in my own wall--they'll never let me live it down), but I do typically react and defend myself (which seems to only make me a bigger target).
In fact, I think this all started when I DID lose my cool about 2 years ago.
I'm beginning to think they might be pushing my buttons for little more reason then the hope of seeing me do something stupid again for their own entertainment.
Well the best advice I can give if you tend to take things personally and react badly and or over react is. Stop. If you are then that might be a huge cause and they might be doing it on purpose just cause they find it amussing. Just laugh stuff off, make jokes back but nothing to cut throat and make jokes about yourself.
Typically if you can laugh at yourself people tend to lose interest in yanking your chain. Not true all the time but more often it seems to be true. Just realize at this point with how long this seems to have been going on, you might have no choice but to look for a new group. Thats what happened to the one guy. He put up with it for years, never "played" back and when he finally had enough and started to push back it was way to late and things just got really out of hand.
Good luck either way.
I've had and seen this same problem in my group over the past few years. A lot of it, like you've said, is tied to your characters. My very first character was a Gnome Swashbuckler built on 3.5 (and I had very little understanding of the rules, but at 14 we probably all did). He was laughably ineffective, and essentially became the group buttmonkey. He didn't get any opportunity to succeed, after a rebuild to rogue we faced nothing but undead for weeks, and after finally making it out of the "Black Lands" he was awarded with a rapier from oli-freaking-dammara himself. One combat later he was friendly fire-killed by the a$$@%~% party mage.
But once said character, not unlike your witch, was associated with these screw ups I found there was nothing I could do to be taken seriously. Three years later he's still a joke character. Gnomes were written out of his homebrew setting as a result...
My only solution if it's bothering you and you don't want to walk is to relay to the group that they're spoiling your fun (they actually had my character return as a minor villain after this)... Alternatively? Just roll up a new character if the options there. Cut off the association with failure and focus on doing your job well with no frills until they ease up on your character. But if the opportunity presents itself (and your examples seem to me like very valid plans :/) by all means, do these things. If your GM is so harsh on your rolls then just tack them onto descriptions of your attack actions. That way, you get your cinematic flair and you're still pumping out damage.
Anyway, some ideas from a fellow victim of the dice-gods. Take them as you will.
These people do not like you.
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...
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Because of a bad series of rolls, the other players now see me as tactically stupid and useless as a fighter--even though had I rolled higher I could have taken out an entire group of gnolls in a single attack. I mentioned that had I been making normal attacks with those same die rolls, the outcome would have been identical, but their view of me and my effectiveness seems set nonetheless.
When your mates mess up, tradition dictates you rib them until they thump you/it gets old..
...and even then it's ripe for a drunken 'Hey, remember the time when...?''
However, if it's getting you down - explain to them it's getting you down. If they keep going at it then they're not really your mates.
Or, my personal favourite, inflict pain and misery upon them.
For me it's via the medium of singing. Loudly. Badly. Often
:)
How does one get past mistaken perceptions such as this? People seem to get the wrong idea about me ALL THE TIME.
Rather than giving people the chance to make up their own minds it may help you to help them make up their minds for them.
I.E In your combat example, rather than just doing ya thang, make sure to include the others with your thoughts/reasoning before/during your attempted actions.
''I reckon I can pin more of them with this table than just engaging one or two by myself, what do you reckon?''
Of course, you may not get the chance to gather their opinions - luckily simply stating your intent and how you believe it will help them can go a long way to clarifying the nature of your actions.
For example, I play a witch named Hama in another game (same player group) who relies on a lot of save or screw spells and an ungodly Charisma for super-DCs. However, because the GM rolls rather well when it comes to saves, Hama, like my fighter, is seen as a useless addition to the...
Claim you are cursed. Laugh with them. Agree she *is* useless - it would seem that she generally is.
Now, when you DO pull something out of the bag you can kick your chair back and go ''BOYEAH! HAVE IT GODS OF GAMING! WHO'S THE BADASS WITCH BIZNITCH NOW YO!1!!''
:)
..above all, relax. The more you react the more they'll look for a reaction.
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Ravingdork, your tactics would fly in the game I play in, not problem. We don't use a battle mat, we play old school style as both the DM and I cut our teeth on 1e. We strive to capture, as best we can, the spirit of the old Errol Flynn and Douglas Fairbanks swashbuckler movies, and have heavily houseruled the game to reflect that.
Having said that, I have to agree with the others that in a straight PF/3.5 type game, those tactics really don't fly. Everything is stuck on a grid, and uses "grid physics". Which is why we don't even bother with it. You know, like a horse taking up a two square by two square space, when in reality it is long, not a freaking square. That kind of stuff takes us out of our immersion and reminds us too much that we're playing a game. But, again, RAW, the game really does limit how jiggy you can get with crazy tactics.
Ravingdork, your tactics would fly in the game I play in, not problem. We don't use a battle mat, we play old school style as both the DM and I cut our teeth on 1e. We strive to capture, as best we can, the spirit of the old Errol Flynn and Douglas Fairbanks swashbuckler movies, and have heavily houseruled the game to reflect that.
Having said that, I have to agree with the others that in a straight PF/3.5 type game, those tactics really don't fly. Everything is stuck on a grid, and uses "grid physics". Which is why we don't even bother with it. You know, like a horse taking up a two square by two square space, when in reality it is long, not a freaking square. That kind of stuff takes us out of our immersion and reminds us too much that we're playing a game. But, again, RAW, the game really does limit how jiggy you can get with crazy tactics.
Aye, our lot roll the same way (more or less) -- we use a wipeboard/mini's to plot locations but everything is wangled.
The grid system is just.. painful... ..too many sacrifices.
Flavour over functionality anyday!
We also make liberal use of modifiers asigned by the DM on a case-by-case basis.
RAW is fun to work with and yes, a sturdy foundation based on a strong ruleset is essential.. ..but really, when the beers are flowing and the hour is late we couldn't give a damn if something wasn't exactly according to the letter o' the law, as long as it wasn't gamebreaking/didn't cause pain and suffering to cute bunnies...
We're chaotic sods at heart! Even our Lawful Good engineer! :)
@Ravingdork: Although the table-trick proved ineffective for that particular fight, I must say that it proved to be an interesting and imaginative way to deal with the situation. Mechanical hit/miss combats can be boring, anyway . . .
At my table I may have given I would have said the table protects you from further AoO's but if you had rolled better it may have pushed one or two of the gnolls back. I like to reward players that go beyond the usual hack and slash.
As for the personality mismatch?? (if that is the right phrase) laugh it off... "I must be a bit unlucky with the dice today, keep complaining and I will touch your dice and drain the luck", will usually quiet people down.
Also start seeing other gamers.. On a social level don't try too-hard to impress, be yourself. Its a game and its about having fun and if you are unhappy ask yourself why are you there.
... "I must be a bit unlucky with the dice today, keep complaining and I will touch your dice and drain the luck", will usually quiet people down.
After using another player's dice with their permission, I was actually accused of doing just that!
Using tables as an improvised weapon is an old favorite of mine. I applaud you for the quick thinking, and offer my condolences on the rolls.
If you want the table w/o having to have a table go tower shield!
But I can't bash or trip with a tower shield. :(
Before I ever brought the fighter into play, I informed my fellow players that he was a "trick fighter" and as such makes heavy use of disarms, trips, and other fancy maneuvers to give himself or his allies the upper hand.
One comment after the table flipping fiasco was "The only trick to your trick fighter is that he can't fight!" --Implying that I had tricked them all into thinking that I would be playing a fighter.
Admittedly, I laughed at the comment.
One thing that I've found very helpful was to get my friends and I, even coworkers, to take the Myers-Briggs personality test.
Oh god, I'm an Introverted (78%) Sensing (1%) Thinking (12%) Judging (33%) personality. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE, MOK!?!?!
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As always.
Step 1) Talk to your group, tell them your concerns and that you aren't having much fun gaming with them when they constantly rip on you for bad dice rolls. They happen to the best players.
Then calmly ask them: "How else do you trip 4 Gnolls all at once as a Fighter?"
My group are cinematic gamers, and we do this sort of stuff all the time. CMB and CMD are built specifically for this kind of stuff. A fighter who "just fights" is rarely any fun for anybody.
Ravingdork, your tactics would fly in the game I play in, not problem. We don't use a battle mat, we play old school style as both the DM and I cut our teeth on 1e. We strive to capture, as best we can, the spirit of the old Errol Flynn and Douglas Fairbanks swashbuckler movies, and have heavily houseruled the game to reflect that.
I don't know about you, but ribbing players who fail spectacularly was very popular in our 1E games! Maybe you had kinder, gentler friends. :-)
Oh god, I'm an Introverted (78%) Sensing (1%) Thinking (12%) Judging (33%) personality. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE, MOK!?!?!
One thing that I've found very helpful was to get my friends and I, even coworkers, to take the Myers-Briggs personality test.
Don't worry about it HOHM; any shrink'll tell you M-B isn't really a valid or reliable testing instrument. Personality breaks down into a lot more than that, for one, and for another, most people get different results each time they take that stuff. A real personality test is hundreds of questions long and you're not supposed to know the possible outcomes (so that you don't subconsciously lean towards a "preferred" personality).
MB is akin to one of those Facebook "Which Dragonball Z character are YOU?" tests.
(Criminey, Green, why do you have to be such an elitist?)
(I can't help it brain, you can't see that and not say it!)
(Shut up, they're on to us!)
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Having experienced some similar situations when I was younger, I will make a few points.
Gradual change probably won't help. These people see you (not your character, you) as an object of ridicule. They also believe that this is acceptable behaviour. They know that it upsets you (you punched a hole in a wall, and the rest of the time they can see your facial expression and body language) and they continue to do it, and enjoy doing it.
My guess is that if you left the group they wouldn't really mind.
If you want to remain friends with them (I don't see why you would,but never mind that) then they need to see you in a new light. If this was a Hollywood movie you'd buy new clothes and turn up with a gorgeous woman on your arm. In real life, my suggestion would be to GM. Your "flaws" might then have a chance to become virtues (you know the rules really well, you're focused upon the game) and you would have an instant comeback for banter: Comically threatening to do terrible things to their characters ("Oh, so you think that was a rubbish pirate voice, I suppose I'll have to change the pirate then, make the whole ship into a Greater Mimic...")
Finally; my father is a child psychologist, when I had my first day at secondary school he said this to me: "If somebody says something horrible to you then what they want is a reaction. If you give them that they will be happy and they'll keep doing it. However, if somebody punches or kicks you they are doing that because they enjoy it and they want to look powerful, so fight back with everything you have and they'll think twice about doing it again."
If you want the table w/o having to have a table go tower shield!But I can't bash or trip with a tower shield. :(
Before I ever brought the fighter into play, I informed my fellow players that he was a "trick fighter" and as such makes heavy use of disarms, trips, and other fancy maneuvers to give himself or his allies the upper hand.
One comment after the table flipping fiasco was "The only trick to your trick fighter is that he can't fight!" --Implying that I had tricked them all into thinking that I would be playing a fighter.
Admittedly, I laughed at the comment.
Good, you haven't lost your sense of humour!
With all your issues, have you considered that you may have Asperger's Syndrome? It's a mild form of Autism that my son is getting assessed for (if he has it it is likely that I had it when younger as well - I can believe that, and I very much relate to your troubles, been there, done that, printed the T-shirt). It may be an idea to speak to someone about being assessed for it, if you have it there are coping mechanisms that you can learn that will help you adapt around your issues.
As for your imaginative tactics, they are imaginative, but there is a fine line between being imaginative and cool, and trying to be clever. For example, against the peryton, you did well. But if you as the fighter had a bow and could have filled the thing with a dozen arrows while attempting to hit it with the grappling hook, I can understand why your fellow players may have felt frustrated because just shooting the thing was probably a better bet for winning the encounter. If you are going for 'imaginative and cool' against 'conventional and ineffective' that's great, if you are going for 'cool' over 'effective', that's putting your fellow PCs in the firing line.
Regarding People Mocking Your Play Style: This is frustrating and pride hurting, but if you feel you did the right thing (and it sounds like a really creative tactic) all you can do is say, "Hey, the dice were against me, let's move on." And then YOU need to move on. If people keep bringing it up, just ignore it and focus on the present. This is so much easier said than done, but ultimately, as long as you are doing your best to be a team player and play your character as best you can, there's nothing else you can do. Remain consistent, and I imagine if your tactics are truly good (it sounds like they are) the other players will come to recognize that in time. You will only further undermine their perceptions of you, however, if you become overly defensive about it.
And, one thing is, to judge whether people are really upset about it, or just teasing. Which can be hard to tell. And if you really can't tell or aren't sure--ask. That's the only way to be sure, and no decent person is going to judge your poorly for asking. As you laughed along with some of the jokes made about the situation, possibly the comments were only made in jest anyway--at which point, it has no real bearing on the others' perceptions of your ability to play anyway.
Regarding Communicating With People In General:
-- "But I'm Trying to Help": Most people are very proud. While there are people who would prefer to let other people make decisions for them, most folks are of the "I can do it myself!" mentality and can become easily defensive when, out of the blue, another person starts telling someone, however politely, how to do something a different way. It does NOT matter the way you word this--what matters is that if you start throwing unsolicited advice around, it's unlikely to be appreciated. In fact, I've seen people reject solicited advice because it still hurts their pride in some way--just look at all the threads on this forum where someone starts a thread, "I am having trouble with X rule, please help!" and someone politely in response kindly points out they have made a mistake in RAW which is why they are having trouble, and the OP's response is to angrily defend his misinterpretation rather than thank the poster for the help they asked for. (Mind, the OP doesn't have to TAKE the person's advice--but the fact remains that it WAS asked for but then rejected because it wasn't what that poster was looking for.)
This is the sentence you need to practice saying: "May I offer some advice? And understand that even if the person says yes, they may not accept that advice, which is their prerogative to do. It has nothing to do with you and everything with that person's mindset, play style, personal preferences, pride, and their right to decide how they want to proceed. If they are polite and respectful people, however, they will at least thank you for your input.
If they say no, keep your mouth shut. It is not your job to tell people how to play. In my personal experience, people who are left alone and allowed to make decisions without fellow players throwing out unsolicited advice on what to do end up becoming better, more decisive players. I have played games where "veteran" players absolutely badgered newbies with a barrage of half-comprehensible (and often conflicting) tactical advice, which normally resulted in the newbie giving up on trying to learn how to play and deciding most gamers were losers with no social skills. I'm not saying that YOU barrage people with advice--I have no idea--I'm just saying that I know a lot of gamers who try to "help" with constant tactical advice and I find it is often more harmful than productive.
Which leads to another issue: are you REALLY just trying to help? Or are you trying to control the battlefield the way you want it to and get other people to play according to your style only? I DON'T KNOW what you are doing, and I don't mean to insinuate one way or the other--I ask this because I know sometimes when I am "just trying to help"--I stop and I realize I am frustrated with this person's play style and I am trying to bully them (however politely) into playing another way so as to resolve my frustration. When my frustration is not their problem and I have no right to make it theirs. This is just a question to ask yourself. If you really are just trying to help, then again, all you can do is offer the advice or be silent when it's not solicited. If you find that maybe you do have a little bit of a control issue going on, then try to focus on ways you can feel "in control" of your own playing without trying to take control away from other people (which is how people will feel if you are "advising" them how to play on a frequent basis).
-- "I don't know the right words to use: First, don't overthink it--sometimes thinking too hard makes us backtrack and stumble and sound more awkward than if we just go with the flow of the words.
Second, do the best you can. That's all anyone can expect of you. Again, ask questions when you're not sure. Social skills have to be learned, and some people learn them faster than others. Some people are still learning at ripe old ages--but you're never too old to learn more. If you're not sure what to say, then remain silent until you've assembled the words in a way that you are comfortable. Focus on people's body language, and look at someone you perceive to have good social skills--see how they express themselves (if you're comfortable with that person, ask them for advice).
Third, more words for you to practice: "I'm sorry." Sometimes even if we're god's gift to eloquence, we just f*** up and say the wrong thing. The best thing to do if someone is upset is just to apologize and move on. Don't explain (unless it's asked for), don't argue, don't extrapolate... just say you're sorry, and move on. You don't have to be sorry about the intention of what you said; be sorry that the person feels badly. That's all. Sometimes it's hurtful to one's own pride to be able to have to do this, but it's a wound that quickly heals, I promise. You're the bigger and better person for doing it.
TL;DR: Relax, do the best you can, be yourself--and let other people be themselves. When something goes wrong, apologize and the ask people involved what you can do to do better next time. Don't give advice unless it is solicited.
And the only reason why I write all this is because this thread is here, because you asked. This is to take or leave, with all the usual grains of salt and two pennies, etc. And I am sorry if I fail to get MY point across and if any feelings are hurt; that is NOT my intention. Good luck and good gaming.
As always.
Step 1) Talk to your group, tell them your concerns and that you aren't having much fun gaming with them when they constantly rip on you for bad dice rolls. They happen to the best players.
Then calmly ask them: "How else do you trip 4 Gnolls all at once as a Fighter?"My group are cinematic gamers, and we do this sort of stuff all the time. CMB and CMD are built specifically for this kind of stuff. A fighter who "just fights" is rarely any fun for anybody.
As to your proposed question: A fighter can trip four gnolls at once with great cleave or whirlwind attack.
I've had people (on the forums, not in my party) call me munchkin for trying to do the table trick without the feats.
I imagine their games are rather boring and unimaginative.
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The problem with fancy tactics like these is that the require a lot of GM adjudication. Look at the table example. You're facing FIVE gnolls. Okay, so let's presume you get enough space between you and the gnolls to avoid Attacks of Opportunity for grabbing and flipping the table (if not, you should have eaten five attacks of opportunity - bad plan). Grabbing the table would require a Move Action, and probably two free hands (or you've got the table between you and the Gnolls). So your first round (move to table, grab table) is gone. And you're unarmed. So the next round you attack with said table (a standard action, with what amounts to an improvised net, really). Would you squish all the gnolls and get a chance to get away? How big is this table?The size and weight of the table was never clarified, but we know it was made of strong wood and that it took up a 2x2 square area. I had ducked under it to avoid some archers on a balcony. That's when the 5 gnolls came marching up. I wanted to stand up, picking up the table on my hands and shoulders as I did so, and flip it on top of the approaching gnolls to essentially trip them. I described what I wanted to do, how I wanted to do it, and the desired effect, and the GM said I was welcome to attempt it, having me make a trip attack against the gnolls with a -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon.
You seem to have a personal preference to use non-traditional tactics at every turn. Have you considered that sometimes you use non-traditional tactics when it's not the best choice?
For example: Your 5th level fighter likely has a CMB of 10? A stock gnoll has a 13 CMD, add the -4 modifier and you succeed on a roll of 7 or higher. So you have a 13 in 20 of giving 5 gnolls partial actions for 1 round.
With a traditional attack your attack bonus with a masterwork weapon is likely +11 (or better) versus AC 15 so you hit on a roll of 4 or higher and most 5th level fighters have a significant chance doing 11hp damage killing the target outright.
I would suggest that your friends were right, both the chance of success and outcome would have been better using traditional tactics.
Most GMs will err on the side of making unusual stuff difficult. This is probably an unconscious effort to keep the shenanigans under control, as figuring out how to adjudicate this stuff fairly is hard and time consuming.Which is exactly the thing I am railing against up thread. If the GM's goal is to prevent future attempts, then they are succeeding. However, preventing such "shenanigans" in this fashion also crushes future creativity.
A -4 DC for using an improvised weapon to make a trip attempt versus 5 targets is quite reasonable. Arguably it should be worse since you are trying to affect more than one target but it's kind of a cool idea so -4 works.
From your previous posts, and comments here I think your preference is try using 'creative' solutions all the time with unrealistic expectations of success. I love creative solutions when they are interesting and work well in the situation, but when players try and do 'creative' solutions in every encounter it's just tends to slow the game down and frustrate the GM. Trying to come up with an appropriate DC for an oddball tactic all the time is frustrating which is likely one of the reasons some GMs discourage this sort of thing.
Lassoing a Peryton in flight because your group is having trouble attacking it is a good example of a creative solution that works. Trying to mass trip a group of creatures with a table? Maybe not so much. Limiting you use of creative tactics to situations where traditional tactics aren't working well or when terrain or conditions favors it will likely make your fellow players less likely to criticize and your GMs happier.
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I don't have nearly enough experience to even think to comment on the Table/Group problems that you seem to be having (except that it really seems to suck), but as for the whole "unconventional" or "nontraditional" approaches to things, I highly recommend seeing if you can't get them all to try a less restrictive system than DnD. Check out Exalted by White Wolf, it actually mechanically rewards people for creative ideas and the like. Plus, it is a less tactical and more cinematic system where it is entirely possible that the 10'x10' table will be thrown in such a way that it can knock over all five enemies at once.
Just my suggestion, and I wish the best of luck in your attempts to resolve your situation
Against my better judgement I am going to chip in.
I can tell you that based on what I have read here I can say RVD that you would drive my table nuts too.
Although I will admit it seems like the other people at your table would too.
For missing details: apologize and ask for them to be repeated; a decent DM should not have a problem with this. Just make sure are not missing details because you are screwing around. I think you may be missing details because you are preoccupied with looking up a rule, giving advice or contemplating a innovated turn.
As for giving advice in game: DON'T. It has been my experiece that this annoys other player more than not. If you need to make a comment have your character do it in game, be brief about it and be done. If you want to talk to the person do it after the session. Also if you are constantly making suboptimal choices on your turn you only compound the problem of giving advice.
As for correcting the DM on a rule in game: DON'T. No DM will get the rules 100% right in all circumstances. There are too many rules to remember. Trust that your DM is to provide you with entertainment and a good time. Nothing ruins an encounter quicker that someone halting the procceedings to look up a rule. It kills the flow, tension and the situation. Also while you may have gotten the rule right on that occasion you very well may have cost your party in the long run. See a DM usually gives the player's breaks here and there that the players are never aware of, but when they get rules lawyered they tend to be less and less forgiving and hold the players to the same standard.
If you must ruleslawyer do it after the session. I know when I screw up I like it pointed out. But not in the middle of a game.
As for taking the creative appoach more ofter than not: DON'T. Nothing annoys players more than one of there own consistantly making suboptimal choices. It frustrates them to no end wheter you win the fight or not.
Play to your strengths. Only unusual circumstances call for unusual tactics. A 4th level fighter verses 5 gnolls is not unusual. The fighter is designed to swing and kill. If you need creative become a swashbuckler or rogue.
Hope this as well as the other advice helps.
Thanx!
Hawk
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I don't have nearly enough experience to even think to comment on the Table/Group problems that you seem to be having (except that it really seems to suck), but as for the whole "unconventional" or "nontraditional" approaches to things, I highly recommend seeing if you can't get them all to try a less restrictive system than DnD. Check out Exalted by White Wolf, it actually mechanically rewards people for creative ideas and the like. Plus, it is a less tactical and more cinematic system where it is entirely possible that the 10'x10' table will be thrown in such a way that it can knock over all five enemies at once.
Just my suggestion, and I wish the best of luck in your attempts to resolve your situation
This is good advice if there are lots of groups in the area or if the whole group is interested in a different style of play. It's going to be a challenge to get a typical group to change gaming systems though, in particular if they are running an adventure path.
All classes are capable of swashbuckling.
Yes of course. Some are better suited to it than others.
Thanx!
Hawk
1. Do you hang out with these people outside of the game?
Yes = 1, No = 2
2. How likely are you to find another group to play with in a timely fashion should you choose to leave this group?
Not Likely = 1, Likely = 2
3. Do you talk to these people about non-gaming matters?
Yes = 1, No = 2
4. Do they ask you for assistance with character creation or feat selection or anything pertaining to their characters?
Yes = 1, No = 2
Multiply your answers together and consult the chart below.
1-2 = Good gaming group. Stick with it.
4-8 = Talk to the DM and/or select other players away from the game. Express your concerns and listen to what they have to say about your play style and/or your characters. Attempt to work out a resolution.
16 = See instruction for 4-8 but actively look for another group at the same time. Sometimes a change of perspective can make a world of difference.
Good luck!
P.S. The above is just a pathetically veiled attempt to say talk to these people. Actually, talk and listen. It's better that way.
1. Do you hang out with these people outside of the game?
3. Do you talk to these people about non-gaming matters?
Your 1 and 3 are my two rules for people allowed to join my Man Day Adventurers group. I don't game regularly with people who aren't my friends.
Honestly, the OP comes off as a bit of a know it all and superior - "I know the rules better than the GM", "I'm more creative than you, even if it doesn't work even a little bit","You're not important enough to pay attention to."
I remember your other thread about Hama, and how basically your GM was softballing your entirely oddball party by having your enemies fight to their greatest disadvantage. Enemies that should have wiped you out in 2 rounds became easy kills because they were played stupidly.
I don't really have much sympathy for him getting razzed at the table. That's part of gaming - one AD&D campaign, our cleric could never dismount a horse without injuring himself (according to the rules as our DM understood them, you needed to make a ride check to dismount, which the cleric failed 19 times out of 20). So naturally the character was made fun of for it.
Don't take it personally, maybe try just playing the game instead of making everything into a big show now and then, or find a new group. Stop whining about what happened and let it go.