Ok, so after see a couple comments about how powerful Entangle spell is and me personally thinking its not very powerful, I realized that there may be a reason. The entangle spell grants the entangled condition. The entangled condition has 1 of 2 effects on movement, either forcing movement at half speed or tethering something in place, depending on the type of bonds. Entangle spell does not specify which of these 2 should be used, so I have assumed half movement, in which case people effectively lose a turn double moving out of the area. If taken the other way, this spell is much more powerful, to the point where I feel it is past the power of a 1st level spell. I am curious how other people run it.
This spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area. Creatures that fail their save gain the entangled condition. Creatures that make their save can move as normal, but those that remain in the area must save again at the end of your turn. Creatures that move into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their movement and gain the entangled condition. Entangled creatures can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the spell. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts.
Entangled: The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell.
The only effect on movement I've ever seen or used with the entangled condition is to reduce movement by half. Where are you getting the 1 of 2 effects depending on type of bond?
Entangle condition: Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force.
As almost every single plant has roots, I'd consider someone hit with this spell to be immobile, as the plants that are holding them are attached to the ground.
As almost every single plant has roots, I'd consider someone hit with this spell to be immobile, as the plants that are holding them are attached to the ground.
Thats definitly the 2nd edition RPGs (ala baldur's gate) take on it. It does make it fairly powerful, but compare that to color spray or sleep and it's pretty much in line with the save or be screwed lower level spells.
The DC won't keep up though, and this spell won't be as useful past lev 4-5.
-Jelly
The DC should be relatively low, and the spell is situational based on terrain. I understand the spell as it makes the creatures immobile unless they make their save each round, otherwise the terrain is difficult.
This appears to be supported by the wording of the spell:
"Creatures that make their save can move as normal..."
-Meaning if they fail, they are immobilized.
"The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts."
-This being spelled out the end indicates it is a separate effect than above.
I've seen this run at table in both ways, i.e. entangle spell essentially slows movement or entangle spell acts like an area effect Tanglefoot bag, depending on whether the group in question was more "letter of the law" or "real-world physics" in their approach to the game.
As almost every single plant has roots, I'd consider someone hit with this spell to be immobile, as the plants that are holding them are attached to the ground.
The logic of plants have roots is almost always the rationale for having it act like a Tanglefoot bag (i.e. hold in place on a failed save).
This seems to be a real grey area, and it's tough to decide which is "correct". But I know this from actual experience - if you run Entangle as holding targets in place like a Tanglefoot bag, this becomes an extremely powerful 1st level spell capable of decisively effecting an entire counter.
I've seen this run at table in both ways, i.e. entangle spell essentially slows movement or entangle spell acts like an area effect Tanglefoot bag, depending on whether the group in question was more "letter of the law" or "real-world physics" in their approach to the game.
As almost every single plant has roots, I'd consider someone hit with this spell to be immobile, as the plants that are holding them are attached to the ground.The logic of plants have roots is almost always the rationale for having it act like a Tanglefoot bag (i.e. hold in place on a failed save).
This seems to be a real grey area, and it's tough to decide which is "correct". But I know this from actual experience - if you run Entangle as holding targets in place like a Tanglefoot bag, this becomes an extremely powerful 1st level spell capable of decisively effecting an entire counter.
That just means that entangle is to druids what color spray and sleep are to wizards and sorcerers: a low-level spell to end encounters. *shrug* I can see both interpretations, and I've had GMs say that entangle can't work because there was insufficient plant life of sufficient size available. So it's not that bad, really. And immobile does not necessarily equal helpless, merely unable to leave that square. At least that's how I'd rule it.
As almost every single plant has roots, I'd consider someone hit with this spell to be immobile, as the plants that are holding them are attached to the ground.Thats definitly the 2nd edition RPGs (ala baldur's gate) take on it. It does make it fairly powerful, but compare that to color spray or sleep and it's pretty much in line with the save or be screwed lower level spells.
The DC won't keep up though, and this spell won't be as useful past lev 4-5.
-Jelly
1. With my interpretation I have seen the spell see a lot of use through lvl 10, when other spells start to catch up to both the usefulness and spamability. For CR 10s, the Fire Giant has a reflex save of +4, so he is looking at worse than a 50/50. Its not uncommon for class leveled caster or fighter opponents to only have those values as well, and many fighters can be completely removed from combat.
2. This is worse than color spray or sleep in some ways because A. It hits a much larger area (40 ft radius vs 15 ft cone or 10 ft burst). B. It works at much longer range (400 vs 15 ft or 100). C. It has no level cap on its effects. Admitedly it is not nearly as bad an effect, but inability to move reduces effectiveness just as much as sleep for many opponents. I contend if used that way it will break encounters more.
I'm pretty sure the RAW says you're immobile. Otherwise the Entangled Condition and the spell creating Hindering Terrain would be redundant. If you save, you still treat the area as hindering terrain. If you fail, you're rooted to the ground.
Edit: Ninja'd
It is what color spray and sleep are to wizards, BUT the enemies must be in vegetation to begin with.
I played a crowd control Druid for quite some time and trust me druid spells are AWESOME in natural environments, but put them in a city with little vegetation, or underground and it easily neutralizes a large chunk of their spells. So you see them burning their otherwise awesome spells to summon animals with no templates or elementals.
As almost every single plant has roots, I'd consider someone hit with this spell to be immobile, as the plants that are holding them are attached to the ground.Thats definitly the 2nd edition RPGs (ala baldur's gate) take on it. It does make it fairly powerful, but compare that to color spray or sleep and it's pretty much in line with the save or be screwed lower level spells.
The DC won't keep up though, and this spell won't be as useful past lev 4-5.
-Jelly
1. With my interpretation I have seen the spell see a lot of use through lvl 10, when other spells start to catch up to both the usefulness and spamability. For CR 10s, the Fire Giant has a reflex save of +4, so he is looking at worse than a 50/50. Its not uncommon for class leveled caster or fighter opponents to only have those values as well, and many fighters can be completely removed from combat.
2. This is worse than color spray or sleep in some ways because A. It hits a much larger area (40 ft radius vs 15 ft cone or 10 ft burst). B. It works at much longer range (400 vs 15 ft or 100). C. It has no level cap on its effects. Admitedly it is not nearly as bad an effect, but inability to move reduces effectiveness just as much as sleep for many opponents. I contend if used that way it will break encounters more.
It's not a reflex save after the spell is cast, it then becomes escape artist or Strength check(both as a move action).
I assumed it was half movement, but now I'm not certain. After all, it doesn't seem like they would need to allow the move action Escape Artist or Strength check to "break free" if you could just move out of the area at a reduced speed.
The spell isn't so bad, difficult terrain by itself isn't a big deal, it allows a reflex save and even if failed it allows a strength or escape check as a move action, so you can try it once or twice per round, depending if you have a use for that standard action, a decent fire spell could effectively clear part of the area as well.
It is a nice spell, in that it is both fairly powerful, situational and leaves enough options to defeat the spell.
Contributor
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I always based the spell on the vegetation available.
for example:
Grasslands: 1/2 movement. the grass does catch them, but is fairly easy to uproot.
Forests or areas with woody vegetation: stops them.
+1
I don't let the entangle spell immobilize unless the things to which the plants are rooted are immobile. For example, grass and weeds rip up easily -- I do so in my yard all the time -- thick, monkey-swinging vines wrapped around a stone plinth? Not so much.
It seems reasonable that the spell was written with two states (impeded v. immobile) in mind because both states will come into play.
Now whether or not grass would immobilize fleeing field mice or rabbits is another question. Had a druid who used entangle to feed the starving party by catching coney.
What I ran into was what happens if they gain the entangled condition, and then move (at half speed) out of the area of effect? Are they still entangled and still have to "break free" of vines that hinder their movement?
I always based the spell on the vegetation available.
for example:
Grasslands: 1/2 movement. the grass does catch them, but is fairly easy to uproot.
Forests or areas with woody vegetation: stops them.
+1
I don't let the entangle spell immobilize unless the things to which the plants are rooted are immobile. For example, grass and weeds rip up easily -- I do so in my yard all the time -- thick, monkey-swinging vines wrapped around a stone plinth? Not so much.
It seems reasonable that the spell was written with two states (impeded v. immobile) in mind because both states will come into play.
Now whether or not grass would immobilize fleeing field mice or rabbits is another question. Had a druid who used entangle to feed the starving party by catching coney.
I think this is how I'm going to run it from now on.
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I think this is how I'm going to run it from now on.I always based the spell on the vegetation available.
for example:
Grasslands: 1/2 movement. the grass does catch them, but is fairly easy to uproot.
Forests or areas with woody vegetation: stops them.
+1
I don't let the entangle spell immobilize unless the things to which the plants are rooted are immobile. For example, grass and weeds rip up easily -- I do so in my yard all the time -- thick, monkey-swinging vines wrapped around a stone plinth? Not so much.
It seems reasonable that the spell was written with two states (impeded v. immobile) in mind because both states will come into play.
Now whether or not grass would immobilize fleeing field mice or rabbits is another question. Had a druid who used entangle to feed the starving party by catching coney.
I would advise against that situational ruling. A spell should work the same way every time, as it is written. It's not so much the strength of the plants grabbing you or how easy they are to rip up normally because when under the effects of the entangle spell they are not normal. The magic is not only animating them but giving them the strength to hold you immobile. A well manicured lawn isn't a viable target for the spell. A field of foot high grass OTOH is.
--Choppin' Vrockoli
I think this is how I'm going to run it from now on.I always based the spell on the vegetation available.
for example:
Grasslands: 1/2 movement. the grass does catch them, but is fairly easy to uproot.
Forests or areas with woody vegetation: stops them.
+1
I don't let the entangle spell immobilize unless the things to which the plants are rooted are immobile. For example, grass and weeds rip up easily -- I do so in my yard all the time -- thick, monkey-swinging vines wrapped around a stone plinth? Not so much.
It seems reasonable that the spell was written with two states (impeded v. immobile) in mind because both states will come into play.
Now whether or not grass would immobilize fleeing field mice or rabbits is another question. Had a druid who used entangle to feed the starving party by catching coney.
I would advise against that situational ruling. A spell should work the same way every time, as it is written. It's not so much the strength of the plants grabbing you or how easy they are to rip up normally because when under the effects of the entangle spell they are not normal. The magic is not only animating them but giving them the strength to hold you immobile. A well manicured lawn isn't a viable target for the spell. A field of foot high grass OTOH is.
--Choppin' Vrockoli
I agree mostly, the spell should work like written and intended most of the time, but there is nothing wrong with occasional situational alterations to a spell based on terrain / environment.
Magic and other special effects are just more memorable and makes for a game that feels less like WoW online if the way how they interact with the environment is a bit more flexible. Still think it should be the exception rather than a rule though.
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I think this is how I'm going to run it from now on.I always based the spell on the vegetation available.
for example:
Grasslands: 1/2 movement. the grass does catch them, but is fairly easy to uproot.
Forests or areas with woody vegetation: stops them.
+1
I don't let the entangle spell immobilize unless the things to which the plants are rooted are immobile. For example, grass and weeds rip up easily -- I do so in my yard all the time -- thick, monkey-swinging vines wrapped around a stone plinth? Not so much.
It seems reasonable that the spell was written with two states (impeded v. immobile) in mind because both states will come into play.
Now whether or not grass would immobilize fleeing field mice or rabbits is another question. Had a druid who used entangle to feed the starving party by catching coney.
I would advise against that situational ruling. A spell should work the same way every time, as it is written. It's not so much the strength of the plants grabbing you or how easy they are to rip up normally because when under the effects of the entangle spell they are not normal. The magic is not only animating them but giving them the strength to hold you immobile. A well manicured lawn isn't a viable target for the spell. A field of foot high grass OTOH is.
--Choppin' Vrockoli
But the spell is situational, it is written into the spell:
From the PRD:
If the plants in the area are covered in thorns, those in the area take 1 point of damage each time they fail a save against the entangle or fail a check made to break free. Other effects, depending on the local plants, might be possible at GM discretion.
Plus it is already situational based off what plants are in the area (as you said, it would not work on a well manicured lawn).
I would also like to know if the spell really means it only affects "foes" or is this a misprint and really means "creatures"?
I would also like to know if the spell really means it only affects "foes" or is this a misprint and really means "creatures"?
I just make the weed hold on to anything that enters the area, seems fair enough for a 1st lvl spell. I think the first line was a weak attempt at a flavorful description.