and which 3 stats would you be putting those 7's into SirOne thing,
I keep hearing how 15 point buy doesn't make 'heroic' characters.
How is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 (or 14, 14, 13, 12, 10, 10) not heroic compared to 10, 11, 10, 11, 10, 11?
(moved from wrong thread)
You are comparing it to the wrong thing.The problem is that some character ideas need to spread out the stats and would have 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Others DONT need to spread the stats and have 17,15,15,7,7,7. Character 1 (the spread out stats) uses his +2 from his race to fill out the lower stats (the 12 or 13), character 2 (with the focused stats) uses it to bring his 17 to a 19. You end up with 15,14,13,14,10,8 vs 19,15,15,7,7,7 where the later is not hurt mechanically by the 7's.
Depends on the character
Fighter - Mental Stats
Wizard - Charisma, Wisdom and Strength
What? Characters with 7-7-7 on their mental stats?
I know 5 GMs, the would refuse this character without explanation. Their answer is and should be:
NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!
What? Characters with 7-7-7 on their mental stats?
I know 5 GMs, the would refuse this character without explanation. Their answer is and should be:
NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!
You can make that 6 GM's
While I dislike the triple 7's, you set it up when you force them to make "Heroic" pc's on an NPC point by budget.
I do dislike stat dumping but point buy encourages it, 15 point by more then most
There's no "forcing" here. If the thing that's most important to a player is DPS in melee, sure you might want to boost strength to the near exclusion of other stats. I find the idea that this is the only "right way to play" absolutely repugnant, however.
I've played in plenty of games though where well-rounded characters, rather than min-maxed ones--using all KINDS of stat generation methods, from the very restrictive to the extremely generous--ultimately were the characters who survived the longest and had the most to do.
Heck, I played a fighter in a one-shot once where, even though her participation in combat was extremely respectable, she was most remembered for "saving the day" by using her Craft: Carpentry skill.
Yes, higher point buys allow even more variability. Not debating that at all.
But this "you must take three 7s to make your character work in standard point buy"... no. Not ever. Not for everyone. The fact that that's not how a given player prefers to allocate stats doesn't make it the only way to play, let alone play effectively. And there's so much depending on both player and GM styles that... I don't even know how to say it.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You are comparing it to the wrong thing.The problem is that some character ideas need to spread out the stats and would have 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Others DONT need to spread the stats and have 17,15,15,7,7,7. Character 1 (the spread out stats) uses his +2 from his race to fill out the lower stats (the 12 or 13), character 2 (with the focused stats) uses it to bring his 17 to a 19. You end up with 15,14,13,14,10,8 vs 19,15,15,7,7,7 where the later is not hurt mechanically by the 7's.
No, I'm not. I'm saying that some people are calling the 15 point array 'worthless'
Lazurin "Gimped unplayable characters are not fun...sorry."
Joey Virtue "We always play with at least one 18 or all your other stats really good. Its needs to be fun for both the Player and the DM and I would find a 15 point character no fun because I would suck at most things..."
Halforcheavymetal "15 point buy .... forces players to make characters with at least two or more scores in the negatives. While this can be said to bring 'character' to the characters, it also leads to min-maxing and in turn gimping the characters in a way that I find disturbing."
Cold Napalm "Meh, with 15 points something needs to go down below 10 on at least 1 stat to start off with 20 int. And this only applies for pretty much wizards and other back line casters...also known as the caster focused druid. EVERYONE else needs to make some sacrafices to make a character that will work in their roles with 15 points."
The standard array nets you a +5 total, modified by dropping the 15 to a 14 gives you +6, that's over the average of +0 so again, why are people calling these characters 'gimped' 'unplayable' 'no fun' and 'suck at most things'?
As to 'not being hurt by the 7s...' You never use ability damage? no one gets ray of enfeebled, or poisoned, or becomes purina brand lahamu chow?
Personally, I think DnD anymore is way to focused on what your stats are.
As opposed to AD&D where there was a huge difference between an 18/00 Strength fighter and a 15 Strength fighter?
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You can make that 6 GM'sWhat? Characters with 7-7-7 on their mental stats?
I know 5 GMs, the would refuse this character without explanation. Their answer is and should be:
NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!
Probably 7, though depending on the player I might watch it a while to see, maybe he really plays the slow witted, rash bully - i've seen that before (in a Werewolf game). But with most players I'd at least warn that I will take measures (meanig demanding a new character) if the dump stats are just played around.
There's no "forcing" here. If the thing that's most important to a player is DPS in melee, sure you might want to boost strength to the near exclusion of other stats. I find the idea that this is the only "right way to play" absolutely repugnant, however.
I am not saying I agree with three 7's but saying you can't do that because it makes a one sided pc while your using 15 point buy is kinda aseholish to be honest.
And any player that will dump three states to 7 will do it on any point buy, he's just more likely to on 15 is all
What? Characters with 7-7-7 on their mental stats?
I know 5 GMs, the would refuse this character without explanation. Their answer is and should be:
NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!
Why? Because you dont like it? Certainly doesnt fly at my table, or any that I have played at. These are the point buy rules we are discussing, if you have a different set of rules you want to discuss please present them.
I would agree the character would be dumb, slow witted and generally unpleasant, but that is my whole point, a low point buy ENCOURAGES this kind of minmaxing that ends up with boring characters in roleplay.
I would agree the character would be dumb, slow witted and generally unpleasant, but that is my whole point, a low point buy ENCOURAGES this kind of minmaxing that ends up with boring characters in roleplay.
I agree, it does not help that every-time someone wants help with a build people will not except anything less then 16-18 if no 20 in the prime stat. The ya get complaints about how x player is a drag on the group because he is "built" wrong
But this "you must take three 7s to make your character work in standard point buy"... no. Not ever. Not for everyone. The fact that that's not how a given player prefers to allocate stats doesn't make it the only way to play, let alone play effectively. And there's so much depending on both player and GM styles that... I don't even know how to say it.
I did not say you MUST take 3 7's. What I am saying is that single ability score dependant classes where the players are optimizing for one particular thing, damage, spells etc can and will. Where as the poor rogue who wants to be a charismatic duelist, or the monk cannot. It creates additional disparity for these classes.
I am by no means saying that a character with well rounded stats cannot be effective against standard monsters and enemies. What I am saying is the character that needs to be well rounded(monk, battle cleric, wildshape druid, combat rogue, bard) is at an automatic disadvantage from the character that doesnt (wizard, fighter, sorceror, barbarian) when you include a low point buy.
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You're saying you'll nerf the 7 int fighter for "being dumb", but not the 7 str wizard ("you can't open the Player's Guide, you're not strong enough). 7 Cha most roleplayers pull off accidentally. And let's be honest, the difference between 7 and 10 isn't so huge.
I think using that argument is silly. You don't want dump stats? Play no dump stats. Optimizers will do what they do within the bounds of what you set. 4th allows exactly one 8, you can use that (though expect it to appear most often in Cha, since it is the only stat that is skill-based and nothing else).
But if it's PFS and I'm a wizard, I'll 7 Cha and Str at no cost, and consider doing it to Wis (spending the feat to get my Will save back). From there, 20 Int, 16 Con, 14 Dex, 20 point buy character done. If I had to leave a 10 in Cha I still can't be the party face, a 10 Str won't help me fight any better, and I am a "rush in"" kinda person so more than 7 Wis would seem a bit high for me anyway :).
So again, by to
I suppose my main issue is with skill points. A 20 point buy can be (potentially) more complex because those points in int translate out to the fighter having one more facet of personality put into his character sheet.
And this is bad ..... how?
You can make that 6 GM'sWhat? Characters with 7-7-7 on their mental stats?
I know 5 GMs, the would refuse this character without explanation. Their answer is and should be:
NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!NO! NO! NO!
+1 more GM
I just want to point out that my OP was a little deliberately inflammatory. I definitely think people should play the game they like, and ignore me if I contradict that.
That said: If the players have more points, the GM loses CR as a tool for building encounters quickly — now he has to do all sorts of tweaking and math to get things where they should be. If he doesn't, the players will breeze through things and the game will be boring.
Your character does not get more effective with higher scores. The GM just has to put more effort in, and he's already putting the most effort of anyone at the game table.
Actually I found this to be the opposite of true. Even if the players blow through the encounters that should seem easy they still tend to end up with half the encounters being tense hardcore battles. Usually in my experience it's the easiest ones aswell...
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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As I don my blue velveteen choir robe, and add my voice to the chanting, "No, No, No, ..." I pause for a moment of contemplation.
Going on a 3d6 normal curve, a score of 7 translates to the 16th percentile. That is to say, line up 50 turnip farmers, city guards, scullery maids, and the like, and 42 of them will be brighter / more perceptive / a better leader than Our Hero.
If you presume that, in Golarion, even turnip farmers add a +2 to their stats somewhere, then that percentage gets even worse.
If you assume that the NPCs use the standard array, then all the simple folk have at least an 8 in every attribute, and Our Hero is the slowest thinking / weakest willed / least inspirational human in the entire kingdom.
There's a place for that character ("Groo the Wanderer") but is your player sure he wants to role-play that?
As I don my blue velveteen choir robe, and add my voice to the chanting, "No, No, No, ..." I pause for a moment of contemplation.
Going on a 3d6 normal curve, a score of 7 translates to the 16th percentile. That is to say, line up 50 turnip farmers, city guards, scullery maids, and the like, and 42 of them will be brighter / more perceptive / a better leader than Our Hero.
If you presume that, in Golarion, even turnip farmers add a +2 to their stats somewhere, then that percentage gets even worse.
If you assume that the NPCs use the standard array, then all the simple folk have at least an 8 in every attribute, and Our Hero is the slowest thinking / weakest willed / least inspirational human in the entire kingdom.
There's a place for that character ("Groo the Wanderer") but is your player sure he wants to role-play that?
GREAT POST.
My personal experience has been that people that are ok dumping stats down to 7, particularly mental stats, expect the ramifications to only apply to skill checks. Int 7? They can think their character should come up with complex tactical plans. Cha 7? They'll role-play their dialogue as much as they can and then get pissed when their Cha 7 character can't convince the town watch to listen to them.
If told that the NPCs in the game world will react & interact with the PC with their stats in mind, suddenly there's a bout of grumbling as those dump stats get bumped up to average numbers...
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Personally, I think DnD anymore is way to focused on what your stats are.As opposed to AD&D where there was a huge difference between an 18/00 Strength fighter and a 15 Strength fighter?
Well I can't compare it to ADnD too much because my only experience with ADnD is Baldur's gate. So I don't know in ADnD what the difference is between a 15 and an 18/00 really is. But in the videogame, I never felt gimped with a 15 str.
I will never go back to rolling stats. It creates far to much variation between PCs. Half the time you end up with one guy who has to be carried or another guy who is the super star because of a few lucky rolls at the start of the game. Point buy helps make sure there is no super star and no guy that has to be carried, instead a party of equals.5 pages in, and all it's done is make me MORE in favor of rolling for stats. ;-P+1. The point buy system, which was really adapted from computer games, seems to play directly into the hands of the powergamers and min/maxers. Great for them if they are enjoying it, but not my cup of tea.
Like I said before, bell curve atrocities happen. However, point buy does not by any means ensure a party of equals- I can, and have, min-maxed to the point of near-ridiculousness with point buy. The "no" chorus actually does more to harm the equality movement than help in a sense because it keeps me from playing the character I want to play- the point of the point-buy system.
Well I can't compare it to ADnD too much because my only experience with ADnD is Baldur's gate. So I don't know in ADnD what the difference is between a 15 and an 18/00 really is. But in the videogame, I never felt gimped with a 15 str.Personally, I think DnD anymore is way to focused on what your stats are.As opposed to AD&D where there was a huge difference between an 18/00 Strength fighter and a 15 Strength fighter?
AD&D 2E{Since I have the book handy}
15 was 0 to hit, 0 damage, weight 55/170, open doors on a 8 or less and bend bars was 7%
Meanwhile
18/00 was +3 to hit, +6 to damage,weight 335/480, open doors on 16 or less and bend bars was 40%
To make insult to injury the fighter with 18/00 also got 10% more xp as his strength was above 16
There was a massive different between 15 and 18/00 far more then between 15 and 18 now days which is just a +2
If someone really wanted to adjust the power level in pathfinder the easiest way to do so would be to change when the bonuses arrive from having stats at a certain level.
This would actually affect maximum DC's, Damage and such where as different point buys won't.
The adjustments I would suggest would be:
1~3 -- -3
4~6 -- -2
7~9 -- -1
10 -- +0
11~13 -- +1
14~16 -- +2
17~19 -- +3
20~22 -- +4
23~25 -- +5
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I'm looking forward to letting the players each roll a set of stats, and then pick the set they want from each rolled. That way, everyone is equal stat-wise and I can base my encounter design off of that power level.
This is how our group did it... wound up with some really high abilities which is my current frustration.
If I do it again I'll have everyone roll 3d6 instead of 4d6 then pick from the best block :)
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This is how our group did it... wound up with some really high abilities which is my current frustration.
If I do it again I'll have everyone roll 3d6 instead of 4d6 then pick from the best block :)
Thanks for the playtest report, I'll be sure to consider that! I think 3d6 is fair, since you'll have at least 4 shots at a decent set. Maybe make it 7 rolls with the worst dropped. Hell, I'll test it now.
I do kind of like that. A lot quicker than the ability score draft someone put forth in a previous thread.
I like 3d8+2 drop lowest when I'm rolling personally.
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This is how our group did it... wound up with some really high abilities which is my current frustration.
If I do it again I'll have everyone roll 3d6 instead of 4d6 then pick from the best block :)
Thanks for the playtest report, I'll be sure to consider that! I think 3d6 is fair, since you'll have at least 4 shots at a decent set. Maybe make it 7 rolls with the worst dropped. Hell, I'll test it now.
3d6; 3d6; 3d6; 3d6; 3d6; 3d6; 3d6
I do kind of like that. A lot quicker than the ability score draft someone put forth in a previous thread.
Just for reference our character all use this stat array:
18 16 15 14 13 13This was with 5 players rolling 4d6 and picking the best set. Most players have an 20 and I think one has a 20 and an 18 with his lowest stat being an 11.
I do NOT recommend this method. :(
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I believe it. My wife rolled 18, 18, 17, 17, 16, 14 for Kirth's game. At the table, in front of us all. Her elven rogue at 4th level is 18 STR, 20 DEX, 15 CON, 20 INT, 14 WIS, 16 CHA. He about had an aneurysm when he actually realized what she rolled.
But then, considering what I run with, this isn't a problem for me.
I like 3d8+2 drop lowest when I'm rolling personally.
The funny thing was this thread made me think about instead of doing a 3d6 or 4d6 system going to 3d8+2 drop lowest earlier today. Just seeing someone else mention it made me giggle a bit.
I believe it. My wife rolled 18, 18, 17, 17, 16, 14 for Kirth's game. At the table, in front of us all. Her elven rogue at 4th level is 18 STR, 20 DEX, 15 CON, 20 INT, 14 WIS, 16 CHA. He about had an aneurysm when he actually realized what she rolled.
But then, considering what I run with, this isn't a problem for me.
My brother rolled some crazy stats like that once too, it was insane. I think he had a 22 Dexterity and a 20 or so Charisma. I think his lowest ability score was a 16. Needless to say everyone else in that campaign was pretty jealous.
I do a random point buy.
Assuming N point buy:
1) Designate your lowest stat.
2) Designate your most important stat.
3) Designate your second most important stat.
Your most important stat has 2 points spent.
Your second most important stat has 1 point spent.
All others are at a base of 10.
You then number your stats from 1 to 6.
Roll N-3 dice where N is the point buy allotment. The die rolls tell you where the points get spent. Any dice that add points to your lowest stat are re-rolled.
When you're done, if you have a stat that doesn't have a valid number of points put on it (say 4 points, rather than 5), you can cannibalize your lowest stat for points to make up the balance.
This will result in everyone being broadly equal, but much more likely to have a random average stat.
It's much much harder to get a raw 18 with this stat buy method. I recommend it with a 20 point buy, because you'll end up with a less optimal character than if you chose all the numbers yourself.
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4d6 drop the lowest has been by far the most common method used by people I played with. Generally we limited it to a total modifier of +4 to +8 (lower or higher requires a complete re-roll). This way you had variation, but it didn't go crazy. For reference, the elite array is a +5.
The one notable exception to the +4-+8 range was once when I rolled really high stats I was allowed to play it by playing a venerable water shugenja (ended up with only an 8 con despite my lowest roll being a 16).
Recently I've been thinking that (whenever I can get a pathfinder group going again) I'd go with a modified 2d6+6 method. Basically, all starts start at 6 and you (in either order) roll a deadlocked set of 6d6 and a non-deadlocked set of 6d6. Some choice, some random; It results in an average of 13 with a min of 8 and a max of 18. (Reroll if you don't have at least one 14). Possibly more powerful than the range-locked 4d6, but also a little less versatile.
As far as 15 point-buy.. I wouldn't leave a table for any stat method as long as that was the method enforced equally for both PCs and NPCs. That said, I've never used a point buy outside of PFS or a video game.
In all my experience playing with rolled characters I've found that those who end up more powerful are just targeted more or required to do more because they can, so it ended up mostly even usually. The players who roll lower simply specialize a little in something that the (inevitably solitary) good-rolling player doesn't have their character do. Even in a big party there has never been a shortage of roles to play.
I guess my opinion on this whole argument is: Do what you want, 'cause you're going to do it anyway. If the encounters aren't hard enough, make them harder. It's more work, but that's the DM's job. If the work is too much it may be time to pass the torch to someone who has more time or (if that's not possible) appeal to your players on the basis of workload reduction or even (god forbid) cooperatively DM (as in, multiple DMs who are also playing. I've only seen it attempted once, but it worked.)
The fact of the matter is that shifting point buy quantities or roll methods is going to affect every party differently and it's up to the DM to know how the players will handle it, and thus how to handle the players. If using the "standard" point buy is what makes your group work, then do it. If not, find something else.
In the end it's about fun, not numbers. It's only when the numbers (whether too high, too low or unfair) get in the way of fun that it matters. Find the balance that works for your group and start stabbing s&+*! Seriously. Stabbing is a very good form of therapy.
*stab**stab**stab**stab**stab**stab**stab**stab**stab*
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I'm not saying a Cleric should be good at everything but I think the reason a Cleric has access to medium armor, a possible marital weapon, and has a 3/4 BAB rather than 1/2 is so they can do more than cast spells and channel energy.
So...your saying the cleric is MAD because you think the cleric should be able to be good at everything...umm yeah....You know what, in that case a wizard is MAD too. You need high int obviously, high con for HP, high dex for AC...you get NO armor after all, high str so he can carry an entire library with him, high wisdom for will saves so all he can dump is his cha.
As for monk for 2 levels, if you wanna give up 2 CL for some stats...I says that perfectly fair.
Well then, welcome to the wonderful world of compromise. You want a melee cleric...well your wisdom is gonna have to be lower. Just like fighty oriented fighter/mage and their int...only with a lot less hoop jumping. I made a 15 point EK, you can damn well make a 15 point cleric.
heres a problem i have with viable 15 point buy clerics, they are all clumsy ditzes who cannot even spell the word cat, and they cannot walk more than 5 feet of even ground without tripping over the laces of thier boots. and that is before they wear armor. how can they call themselves clerics? they know not even the most basic tenants of thier faiths as they are too dumb to even spell the word cat, and they cannot walk, let alone charge in thier gods name without tripping. and are too dumb to remember their need wear armor.
Heres an array for a minmaxed 15 point aasimaar melee cleric, i will call her Flonne.
1st level Aasimaar Cleric
Wis 16
Cha 16
Con 13
Str 16
Int 7
Dex 7
as you can see in the block of attributes
Flonne doesn't know her religions basic tenants, heck, she can't even spell the word cat. she is too dumb to know about the usefulness of armor and cannot walk more than 5 feet on perfectly even ground without tripping over the lacing of her boots. she may as well be walking into battle wearing a dress.
While I dislike the triple 7's, you set it up when you force them to make "Heroic" pc's on an NPC point by budget.
I do dislike stat dumping but point buy encourages it, 15 point by more then most
In other words using low point buy in no way ensures that the power level of the character will likewise be low.
I find it funny that people think dice rolling discourages min/maxing.
Me too. In my experience they always find a way to get awesome stats - and in fact popint buy is the best way of stopping them. Your dedicated munchkin has no problem dicing up 500 sets of stats to get the one they want, or else taking a short-cut and cheating on the dice.
There is no such thing as a foolproof system, what it really comes down to is personal preference.
Like I said before, bell curve atrocities happen. However, point buy does not by any means ensure a party of equals- I can, and have, min-maxed to the point of near-ridiculousness with point buy. The "no" chorus actually does more to harm the equality movement than help in a sense because it keeps me from playing the character I want to play- the point of the point-buy system.
It's a matter of play style, really. While point buy does not ensure 'equals' it does mean the system is fair. You won't have a character with awesome stats everywhere, if they have some awesome stats they will have some abysmal ones. Your fighter with all their mental stats at 7 should (in theory) need the rest of the party to do his thinking and talking for him and protect him from his own folly, something they should in theory do to gain his hitting power in a fight.
The reason a lot of DMs won't like that character is because the player that does that will likely either (a) quickly get bored, because unless there is a fight going on he has nothing to do; (b) will just not roleplay his low mental stats; (c) will roleplay them but potentially in the most obstructive, silly way possible (usually out of boredom). I'm not saying someone couldn't play that level of idiocy well over a long term, but they'd be the exception, not the rule.
So wait, point buying three 7's is minmaxing, but rolling three 7's isn't?
...Huh?
Guys can we please accept that "powergaming" has no attachment to how you roll or buy your stats? That word has lost all meaning. It's being thrown around so much I'm surprised it's not being used on other things. "Yeah I was gonna go make a sandwich but I was out of bread, that's so powergaming, man."
Anyways, the DM can say "NO NO NO" as much as he wants to three 7's, but, fun fact, at that point, you are houseruling.
Lastly, to the person asking - having more skill points is a good thing, not a bad thing :p
Guys can we please accept that "powergaming" has no attachment to how you roll or buy your stats?
Undoubtedly. You can argue it either way, but it has nothing to do with dice rolling or point buy.
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So wait, point buying three 7's is minmaxing, but rolling three 7's isn't?
Well arguably rolling 3 7's there is little choice, you are the victim of fate. With point buy you are making a conscious choice.
I'm not pointing at anything and saying it's power gaming or min-maxing just pointing out there is a difference between a roll being random and conscious choice to dump stats.
the ultimate DM counter to minmaxed anything. a gothloli vampire lord sorceress with maxed charisma summoning the terrasuqe. bonus points if she is either named Remelia Scarlet or Evenageline A.K. Mcdowell. and since she appears to be a child, any lawful and/or good aligned party members are going to be screwed morally. and this makes a perfect true form for a big bad, or at least thier right hand maiden.