Spontaneous Casters and Levels from Prestige Classes


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

"by RAW" if you are a spontaneous caster, who also has caster levels from a prestige class, when your total caster level is equal to one of the levels you might be able to retrain a spell in your base class, do you still get that retraining, or is it a benefit you lose for being a prestige class.

Here is the text from bard:

Bard wrote:
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.


Galnörag wrote:
"by RAW" if you are a spontaneous caster, who also has caster levels from a prestige class, when your total caster level is equal to one of the levels you might be able to retrain a spell in your base class, do you still get that retraining, or is it a benefit you lose for being a prestige class.
PRD wrote:
Caster Level: Generally equal to the number of class levels (see below) in a spellcasting class. Some prestige classes add caster levels to an existing class.

The rules say you continue to add caster levels to an existing class. That means the bard would continue to gain caster levels via the prestige class as if he were gaining bard levels -- but not the other elements of the bard class (music, knowledges, etc).

Although, there is some confusion, particularly from the individual prestige classes:

PRD wrote:
When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if she is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting

I'd say the "spells known" benefit also includes the spell swaps granted to spontaneous casters.


I'd say that spell-swapping is a function of the bard or sorcerer classes (or others, as noted in their entries). As such, I'd say that when a prestige class takes the character's caster level up to the point where this could become an issue (e.g. reaching 8th level caster as a bard), you would not get the benefit as it's a function of the bard class (in my example). Having said that, I don't think it's a big deal to let bards and sorcerers do it anyway.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Lathiira wrote:
I'd say that spell-swapping is a function of the bard or sorcerer classes (or others, as noted in their entries). As such, I'd say that when a prestige class takes the character's caster level up to the point where this could become an issue (e.g. reaching 8th level caster as a bard), you would not get the benefit as it's a function of the bard class (in my example). Having said that, I don't think it's a big deal to let bards and sorcerers do it anyway.

I take the opposite view. The swapping is in the class description of 'spells' so swapping seems to default.

I wrote my arcane legionary with their spell swapping as a seperate class ability for just this reason. So that a multiclassing AL is a bit less flexible than a 20 level AL.


You run into the same issue with the fighter class and their ability swap out combat feats with their bonus feats level 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. Some prestige classes also give you combat feats like this Eldrich Knight and some of the Dragon Disciple Feats. I allow that swap but no one has ever actually used it even if they stayed as Fighter. I don't think by RAW that is allowed however but arguments could be made I suppose.

This is kind of the same issue with spontaneous spell casting.


Matthew Morris wrote:


I take the opposite view. The swapping is in the class description of 'spells' so swapping seems to default.

I wrote my arcane legionary with their spell swapping as a seperate class ability for just this reason. So that a multiclassing AL is a bit less flexible than a 20 level AL.

Now that I have opened the PRD (instead of just relying on memory), I note the verbiage there says specifically:

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

Emphasis mine.

That's taken from the PRD verbatim. Since it specifically says "bard level", I think the ability is supposed to only work for bard levels. While it is indeed in the spells section, the specific description makes me think it's meant to key off of bard levels only. The sorcerer has similar verbiage. I still hold that it isn't a big deal to let the character with the prestige class do it anyway.


Lathiira wrote:
Emphasis mine.
PRD wrote:
Caster Level: Generally equal to the number of class levels (see below) in a spellcasting class. Some prestige classes add caster levels to an existing class.

Emphasis mine.

The prestige classes add caster levels to an "existing" class. You don't get arcane trickster caster levels -- you get wizard/sorcerer/bard caster levels. Since it adds on to the base class, the base class rules still apply.


meabolex wrote:
Lathiira wrote:
Emphasis mine.
PRD wrote:
Caster Level: Generally equal to the number of class levels (see below) in a spellcasting class. Some prestige classes add caster levels to an existing class.

Emphasis mine.

The prestige classes add caster levels to an "existing" class. You don't get arcane trickster caster levels -- you get wizard/sorcerer/bard caster levels. Since it adds on to the base class, the base class rules still apply.

Yes, yes.

But the real question here is whether we're retraining a known spell based on the class level or the caster level.

Just because caster level is "generally" equal to class level does not mean that class level is ever necessarily equaly to caster level. This is a one-way street.

So, the ability to retrain the spell states "Bard" level, not caster level. Taking a prestige class adds caster levels to the existing caster level of the bard, but the prestige class does not add "Bard" levels.

So if this class ability is triggered by Bard levels, then you cannot use it when gaining levels in a prestige class. If it is triggered by caster level, then you can - but you could also just dual-class as a bard/druid and your "caster" level as a druid could trigger the ability to retrain your bard spells, which is almost certainly not the intent.

So, it's not likely that the RAI is to use your caster level. Ergo, we probably should trigger the spell retraining only when the bard level increases.

That said, I don't like my answer. I would rather let the bard retrain a spell as described but based off of his "bard caster level" which isn't even really a game term, but in this case I would mean it is his caster levels specifically with bard magic, and which are not affected by any other classes that do not specifically increase his caster level with bardic spells.


Actually prestige classes add spell casting level not caster level. Caster level is added as part of the spell casting level. If you only got caster level you'd never gain more spells but the spells you did have would be more effective.

One could argue that spell level is described under the Spell section of the class and therefore all that is under that section applies when you get a spell casting level from a prestige class.


DM_Blake wrote:
So, the ability to retrain the spell states "Bard" level, not caster level. Taking a prestige class adds caster levels to the existing caster level of the bard, but the prestige class does not add "Bard" levels.

So, essentially this argument hinges on a bard caster level versus a bard level.

PRD wrote:
When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class.

Note that the character taking the prestige class level gains the spells as if it were gaining a level in the "class she belonged to before adding the prestige class". Gaining a bard level -- not a bard caster level, a bard level.

The only point of confusion I can see is the next sentence:

PRD wrote:
She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if she is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.

The problem is that the spell swap is not explicitly mentioned. Any reasonable person would assume that if you gain the same spells known as the base class, you'd also gain the spell known swaps -- as they are part of the spells known mechanic.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
meabolex wrote:


The problem is that the spell swap is not explicitly mentioned. Any reasonable person would assume that if you gain the same spells known as the base class, you'd also gain the spell known swaps -- as they are part of the spells known mechanic.

Sorry, I know, I know we are on the internet, but "Any reasonable person would assume..." isn't really fair, I think the both sides have given reasonable interpretations, and I think it just illustrates the wording is less then clear.

I'm inclined to say that swapping spells is not so earth shatteringly powerful as to not be allowed because to not allow feels punitive, but I wouldn't have asked if it was clear.

Scarab Sages

Funny. Any reasonable person would assume that if a prestige class said "You do not, however, gain any other benefits*

you wouldn't try to get other benefits, such as swapping spells, feats, or increasing the power of bloodline or domain abilities.

*reason* is the ability to comprehend, infer, and or think in especially orderly ways.

It doesn't stand to *reason* that a reasonable person will always be right. Reasonably, even a reasonably reasoning person will occasionally reason fallacy or inaccuracy into their reasoning.

That's no reason to reason them as unreasonable especially after hearing anothers reasoning, they can reasonably understand the underlying reasons in the other persons reasoning.

Anyone else getting smurf flashbacks? :D

Internet danger words:

Reasonable, intelligent, logical, right-minded, 00110011001, right way, common sense, and finally, it's a trap!.


Quote:
Sorry, I know, I know we are on the internet, but "Any reasonable person would assume..." isn't really fair, I think the both sides have given reasonable interpretations, and I think it just illustrates the wording is less then clear.

Life isn't fair ): But in this case, the wording is clear enough to make a reasonable statement.

Quote:
That's no reason to reason them as unreasonable especially after hearing anothers reasoning, they can reasonably understand the underlying reasons in the other persons reasoning.

Unless the other's reasoning is based on a false premise. Spell swaps are simply another way to learn spells known. You definitely gain spells known as the base class in a spellcasting prestige class. Assuming you don't gain the spell swaps implies that you don't gain the same spells known. That seems unreasonable.

Scarab Sages

Nah, wrong premise again. Lets look at sorcerer.

Swapping spells is not the same as gaining spells.

Gaining spells = adding new spell to list, and adding to the number of spells you can cast in a day.

Swapping spells doesn't add to the number you can cast in a day. It's also not just adding a new spell to a list, since you also have to remove a spell from that list.

Additionally, it's specifically mentioned in a separate paragraph from spells known and spells per day.

Additionally to that, it's specifically mentioned that at 4th level, and every other even level after that, you swap. It doesn't follow the every level method of spells known and spells per day.

Additionally, it's an entry that only spontaneous casters have. Casters who memorize spells don't have that. The entry in the prestige class is very precise.

pg 376 arcane trickster:

The character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known *if she is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.

It specifically notes that you get additional spells per day, spells known, and a increased effective spellcasting level. Note that it specifically does NOT mention switching spells out.

Now, since it makes specific reference to paragraphs under Spells in the sorcerer class, but excludes the paragraph about switching spells which comes right underneath the other ones, I don't see how you can argue that you would, per the rules, get that additional special ability.

Switching a spell known for another spell is not 1. Additional spells per day *it grants no additional castings, 2. Additional spells known *since it doesn't increase the spells you know -- the total remains the same* or 3. an increased effective level of spellcasting *since it switches spells, and has nothing to do with casting level.

As to whether that would be a decent addition to houserule in, well that's a different matter. But really, the entry is super specific about what you take. Additional spells per day, additional spells known, and increased effective level of spellcasting.

Also, in case you missed it in my post, I was actually making light of the use of various words, including reason, as having any effect at all in forum posts.

Its one of those words that has no weight beyond it, and is often used in part of a *strawman* argument. Note that I am NOT accusing you of making such an argument, merely pointing out why it's avoided.

So, again, trading spells doesn't add spells, since your total spell count remains the same. Thus it doesn't qualify as specified in the prestige class entry.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

The only problem I see with not allowing the spells known swapping as a character progresses in a PRC is that it punishes the players who do NOT plan their characters in advance from 1st-20th.

So what you end up doing is screwing the organic character whose player just wants to play a theme, because they didn't have the system mastery to know which spells to take, and that entering the PRC would prevent him from trading out a bad choice or spell that later becomes useless.

We don't need to encourage system mastery any more than 3.X already does.


The way I look at is a prestige class increases your spell casting level. Spell casting level is that chart where spells are gained and that entry on casting spells because you have two different mechanics, spontaneous or non-spontaneous. I think that all paragraphs under the SPELLS heading apply which include swapping.

The problem is the prestige class lists exceptions where swapping isn't among them is that the whole statement is targeting additional class features and not actually addressing the SPELLS section where the swap is mentioned. This is confusing and leads to arguments to the letter of the rule vs the intention of the rule. In this case you can clearly see the intention of the rule to specify that you don't gain stuff like additional bloodline powers and just gain spells. Then you see they list the exceptions and it looks to me like an oversight when it comes to spell swapping being missing. So while a strong argument can be made against allowing spell swapping by the word of the rule the intention of the rule seems to allow it. But when it comes to what is written vs what is intended written is normally given more weight at least in legal world. Not so sure that is so in gaming.


voska66 wrote:
But when it comes to what is written vs what is intended written is normally given more weight at least in legal world.

Not at all. In the "legal world", what is intended is often the main focus.

However, in the "legal world", they pay attention primarily to what is written in order to decide what was/is intended -- not because it's what was written that matters, but because what was written is the most reliable evidence we have.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:

The only problem I see with not allowing the spells known swapping as a character progresses in a PRC is that it punishes the players who do NOT plan their characters in advance from 1st-20th.

So what you end up doing is screwing the organic character whose player just wants to play a theme, because they didn't have the system mastery to know which spells to take, and that entering the PRC would prevent him from trading out a bad choice or spell that later becomes useless.

We don't need to encourage system mastery any more than 3.X already does.

If they're learning the system enough that they can't plan thier character, then maybe they're better off just staying single-classed. That said, I have allowances beyond the rules for spell/skill/feat-swapping but that's strictly homebrew on my part. PrC's still pretty much demand system mastery in most cases.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
If they're learning the system enough that they can't plan thier character, then maybe they're better off just staying single-classed. That said, I have allowances beyond the rules for spell/skill/feat-swapping but that's strictly homebrew on my part. PrC's still pretty much demand system mastery in most cases.

Problem is, PRCs are shiny and attractive to new players. 'Ooo, I can be a Fire Mage if I get this feat and that skill, and then I'll be a cool fire mage!' So they don't realize they should stay single classes until they know the rules better.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
LazarX wrote:
If they're learning the system enough that they can't plan thier character, then maybe they're better off just staying single-classed. That said, I have allowances beyond the rules for spell/skill/feat-swapping but that's strictly homebrew on my part. PrC's still pretty much demand system mastery in most cases.
Problem is, PRCs are shiny and attractive to new players. 'Ooo, I can be a Fire Mage if I get this feat and that skill, and then I'll be a cool fire mage!' So they don't realize they should stay single classes until they know the rules better.

I think the general lack of retaining rules in general are especially punitive to new players. Its nice to see Sorcerers and Fighters have narrow retraining rules, but I think some broader ones wouldn't be system breaking.

I think they were in the original PHB 2.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

From my interpretation the +1 caster level effectively gives you everything under the "Spells" category of the class. As the retraining for spontaneous casters is a portion of the "Spells" entry I believe they should get the ability to retrain spells.


I am in the retraning is part of the known spells mechanic group. Thus, you can retrain when you gain appropiate levels in a PrC.


Charender wrote:
I am in the retraning is part of the known spells mechanic group. Thus, you can retrain when you gain appropiate levels in a PrC.

Ditto


Charender wrote:
I am in the retraning is part of the known spells mechanic group. Thus, you can retrain when you gain appropiate levels in a PrC.

+1

Liberty's Edge

Tilnar wrote:
Charender wrote:
I am in the retraning is part of the known spells mechanic group. Thus, you can retrain when you gain appropiate levels in a PrC.
+1

+2, I favor ruling it this way as well.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alceste008 wrote:
Tilnar wrote:
Charender wrote:
I am in the retraning is part of the known spells mechanic group. Thus, you can retrain when you gain appropiate levels in a PrC.
+1
+2, I favor ruling it this way as well.

+3. Ruling the other way does nothing to enhance fun. Why have a rule in a game that makes things LESS fun?


Quote:
that quote

+4


This issue was rampant in 3.5 up until a rule clarification appeared in a later splat book (I forget which one). No surprises, it was in favour of the more flexible approach.

Thus, I for one think that for the Pathfinder game, a statement by a member of the development staff (*ahem* JAMES JACOB *ahem*) would go a long way towards concluding the debate, especially for particularly anal GMs. Do us all a favour, James? ;p

Sczarni

Has this question (whether or not spell retraining is allowed for spontaneous casters who advance in prestige class (in my case Mystic Theurge)) ever been settled by a FAQ or something else definative?

If so, could someone provide me w/ a link?

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