Flight clarification

[Aotrscommander]

So, first time actively using the Pathfinder flight rules (as opposed to 3.5's.)

Pretty sure we largely made a complete hash of it (for one, totally neglected to remember the DC 10 Fly check on winged creatures taking damage, mostly forgot about the Erinyes' DC 15 Fly check to hover and mistakenly remembered Fly as Perfect, not good maneuverability...)

So... When using the actual right RULES, some questions, mostly pertaining the Perfect flight speed.

As PF does not make any exceptions I could find, I am to understand that anything with Perfect flight speed (a theorhetically-converted Beholder or a ghost) still has to make a Fly skill check to hover just like anything else?*

*If mechanically true, I may have to house-rule modify that one, as ghosts failing to float in place just seems a bit wrong!)

[CraziFuzzy]

mechanically, that is true - perfect flight doesn't negate any particular check requirements. However, the +8 from perfect makes the checks pretty easy, and most flying creatures with that high a flight quality will auto-pass any hover checks, making actually rolling them unnecessary.

[Aotrscommander]

PF stock ghosts apparently only have a +9 (vrs DC 15) for hover, so there's still the possibilty of ghost failing to float 25% of the time...!

However, you raise a good point I had not considered with the auto-pass skill checks, or at least as it pertains to design intention verses the rules *we* use - as we use the 1 = -10, 20 = 30 variant on skill checks (which means that you have to have a lot higher skill to automatically pass checks).

Normally, this is generally not a problem (and adds to our fun), since it allows the occasional utter, blundering failure past the first two or three levels or spectaular success.

But maybe for flight, if the intention was for auto-passes, I might need to make an exception to that rule... I dunno.

Hmm. Maybe all I really need to do is say that "creatures with Perfect flight speed do not count 1 as -10 on fly skill checks" to fix that issue or just say Perfect means they can take 10 on fly checks (like swim or climb) - that might be even easier, though it might trivialise fly checks for Perfect too much...

[merpius]

Worth pointing out in this regard: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/hover/

If it is utterly mandatory for the particular creature to be able to always hover, give them that feat and they can.

Another option is to simply house rule it as you've house ruled natural 1s and natural 20s; just saying perfect get to hover w/o check is easy and doesn't mess with anything else.

RAW, though, is that even perfect have to make fly checks to hover. If that stock ghost has put a single point into the Fly skill, they'd have a +13 bonus, which is pretty close to auto succeed at a DC 15. I'm really not sure why they didn't go for that.

If you build a Beholder in Pathfinder, just make sure to give it a point or three in Fly and it will probably end up being in that same boat, or better.

[CraziFuzzy]

I honestly don't see a reason why ghosts need to "fly". Most ghost tropes I can think of would be classified more as levitating then actually flying. I mean, if they are at ground level, in don't think the 'Hover' check is necessary, just consider them mechanically walking - even if they have no manifested legs.

[Kristal Moonhand]

You don't need to make checks to hover if you have magical flight, that's for winged creatures.

[CraziFuzzy]

Kristal Moonhand wrote:

You don't need to make checks to hover if you have magical flight, that's for winged creatures.

I know that is often the interpretation, but that isn't actually stated anywhere. The only differentiation between magical and winged flight is in the check for falling from damage.

[merpius]

As far as ghosts go, sicne they have no other means of flight, they would, potentially, have to make fly checks to move. I guess, in theory, if a ghost is trying to stand still on the ground they would have to make a hover check to make sure they don't fall into the ground (but only as deep as their size, since that is the farthest they can go in).

Honestly, at a table, I highly doubt it will ever come up without a GM saying "well, ghosts can stand on the ground without hovering, because, ground." And I think that is really the RAI.

But, strictly RAW; I guess they'd have to make a Fly check to do it, since they are immaterial and they have no ground movement capability.

I agree, though, they probably should have just gave them regular ground movement instead of fly; most ghost stories do not involve ghosts flying around willy-nilly, but rather moving around as they did in life, except being to go through stuff they otherwise couldn't.

[blahpers]

Incorporeal (Ex) states that incorporeal creatures can enter solid objects, not that they are obliged to. I'd rule that they can stand just fine.

[Derklord]

Kristal Moonhand wrote:

You don't need to make checks to hover if you have magical flight, that's for winged creatures.

Sadly, this FAQ says otherwise. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense that when "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking", standing still is somehow a challenging task (and walking slowly is harder than jogging).

If only the Ghost had ranks in fly...

[Kristal Moonhand]

Okay, but incorporeal creatures cannot fall. That's in the incorporeal special quality description: "Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage." So yeah, ghosts don't need to make hover checks.

[Claxon]

Aotrscommander wrote:

However, you raise a good point I had not considered with the auto-pass skill checks, or at least as it pertains to design intention verses the rules *we* use - as we use the 1 = -10, 20 = 30 variant on skill checks (which means that you have to have a lot higher skill to automatically pass checks).

So just to clarify, because I'm not sure if you're indicating that you believe it functions this way, but in 3.5 rolling a 1 on a skill check was never an auto-failure, and a 20 was never an auto-success. Else you could jump to the moon 5% of time. It's also important to remember take 10. I believe creatures with a natural fly speed can take 10 on fly checks, even in combat.

Edit: I double checked and unlike a Swim Speed, a fly speed doesn't enable you to take 10 in any conditions.