Two of the characters in my campaign have been turned to stone and the group only has 1 lot of stone salve.
Will Break Enchantment reverse this, or only Stone to Flesh?
Stone Salve (4,000 gp) will cure only one of your allys.
Break Enchantment will work on one creature per level as long as they all are within 30-feet, but you have to make a caster level check:
For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect.
Good luck!
Sorry, to make this a little clearer, two of the PCs in the game I'm running have been petrified after being caught in a gorgon's breath weapon twice and I'm trying to figure out if the Paladin's break enchanment will return them to normal.
The description for BE says that iw will only work on effects that aren't normally dispelled by dispel magic if the spell is level 5 or below. Assuming the gorgon's breath is the same as flesh to stone, that's a level 6 spell which is not dispelled by dispel magic (as FtS is instantaneous). Does this mean that break enchantment has no effect on petrified characters?
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The description for BE says that iw will only work on effects that aren't normally dispelled by dispel magic if the spell is level 5 or below. Assuming the gorgon's breath is the same as flesh to stone, that's a level 6 spell which is not dispelled by dispel magic (as FtS is instantaneous). Does this mean that break enchantment has no effect on petrified characters?
I see what you mean. I'd probably say that flesh to stone is not immune, in itself, to dispel magic, it's just not practical to dispel it because it's instantaneous, if that makes sense. If it did have a duration it could be dispelled normally.
However the designers may have included that limit specifically to ensure that stone to flesh was required to reverse petrification. It could go either way.
I imagine it might work for the first temporary condition. Once a character is petrified there is no enchantment to break - this is a change in state.
Will break enchantment work to undo level gain? or undo a raise dead?
I could understand that you might house rule it otherwise but I think the RAW is pretty clear.
Sigurd
Of course someone from Paizo might come by and say:
In 3.5, break enchantment COULD remove petrification; it just doesn't do so automatically since there's was a roll involved for success. I would say that in Pathfinder it should remove petrification as well, to be honest. Stone to flesh is automatic, of course. But with the large number of petrification effects in the game, it's good for there to be more than one spell on one spell list that can fix the condition.
Creative Director
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In 3.5, break enchantment COULD remove petrification; it just doesn't do so automatically since there's was a roll involved for success. I would say that in Pathfinder it should remove petrification as well, to be honest. Stone to flesh is automatic, of course. But with the large number of petrification effects in the game, it's good for there to be more than one spell on one spell list that can fix the condition.
These are not the droids you're looking for.
Two of the characters in my campaign have been turned to stone and the group only has 1 lot of stone salve.
Will Break Enchantment reverse this, or only Stone to Flesh?
A) In the RAW Break Enchantment can't reverse it
1) The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled2) Flesh to Stone has a duration of instantaneous
3) If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.
4) Flesh to Stone is a 6:th level spell.
5) Assuming the gorgon's breath is the same as flesh to stone, is probably correct. ...but who knows
B) You can house rule it does. I would.
C) Don't always trust James on rulings.
D) Some of the rules are badly written and you do need to house rule it. In 3.5 the rules read: "Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect, such as flesh to stone." Why wouldn't it now?
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A) In the RAW Break Enchantment can't reverse it
1) The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled
2) Flesh to Stone has a duration of instantaneous
So, why does break enchantment states "This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect."?
3) If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.
This is a good point instead.
So, why does break enchantment states "This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect."?
my copy and paste got messed up.
In the RAW Break Enchantment can't reverse it because:
1) If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.
2) The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled by dispel magic.
3) Flesh to Stone has a duration of instantaneous
4) Flesh to Stone is a 6:th level spell.
5) "Assuming the gorgon's breath is the same as flesh to stone, that's a level 6 spell which is not dispelled by dispel magic", is probably correct.
And what I meant by "Don't always trust James on rulings" is just that if you want an official ruling it's Jason who has the answer.
James is one of my favourite staff because he is helpful and a kind person and he is VERY active on the messageboard, but some of his feedback is just his opinions not rulings. I've got the feeling that when his feedback is an official ruling he explicitly says so.
Come to think of it. How many 5:th level spells or lower with the duration of instantaneous are there to dispel?
Perhaps this is an errata?
Would a heightened Break Enchantment do the trick?
I think you're hitting a 'lets be fair' soft spot.
"Joe my cleric just got turned to stone by a big cow with metal plates. We, couldn't be prepared with the perfect counter spell and, and... It was a Cow man!"
The paladin was right there in the battle and wants to be able to save Joe. It aint all physics. Some of it is faith.
sigurd
Gorgon's breath is a little gronky.
From D20PFSRD - Gorgon:
This petrification is temporary—each round, a petrified creature can attempt a new DC 21 Fortitude save to recover from the petrification as long as it is not caught within the area of effect of the gorgon's breath weapon a second time while petrified. A creature exposed to the gorgon's breath a second time while already petrified becomes permanently petrified, and can no longer attempt to make additional Fortitude saves to recover naturally.
This is what Break Enchantment is made for. The gorgon's breath is not a spell-like ability, so comparisons to Flesh to Stone are inappropriate. It appears to be a transmutation effect, which is perfect for Break Enchantment.
If gorgon's breath was akin to Flesh to Stone, i.e. spell-like, then dispel magic should work on it as it's not instantaneous in duration. It's temporary until it's permanent.
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I've always found it odd that the CR of most of the critters that can turn you to stone are really fairly low. Much lower than the 11th level caster you need to undo it.
Was this designed to interrupt sessions so the party had to go back and spend some money to the local high priest?
By the time you can undo flesh to stone, you (and the rest of your party) generally have enough save to not worry too much about it.
1) The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled
2) Flesh to Stone has a duration of instantaneous
3) If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.
4) Flesh to Stone is a 6:th level spell.
5) Assuming the gorgon's breath is the same as flesh to stone, is probably correct. ...but who knows
To dispel something implies that you are ending an ongoing magical effect.
The petrified status is not an ongoing magical effect.
When you end petrification, you are simply removing the petrified status. Dispel magic doesn't automatically remove status effects.
Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect.
If the petrified status were a spell, you'd be right. But it's an effect created by a spell:
If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.
This is what Break Enchantment is made for. The gorgon's breath is not a spell-like ability, so comparisons to Flesh to Stone are inappropriate. It appears to be a transmutation effect, which is perfect for Break Enchantment.
Thanks for the information. Does this mean that there is no need for caster level checks or are there?
If yes: Caster level vs. what?
If gorgon's breath was akin to Flesh to Stone, i.e. spell-like, then dispel magic should work on it as it's not instantaneous in duration. It's temporary until it's permanent.
The problem isn't when it isn't temporary but when it has becomne temporary. See OP.
To dispel something implies that you are ending an ongoing magical effect.The petrified status is not an ongoing magical effect.
When you end petrification, you are simply removing the petrified status. Dispel magic doesn't automatically remove status effects.
Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect.If the petrified status were a spell, you'd be right. But it's an effect created by a spell:
No in this case it's an effect created by a breath weapon.
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DC 8 then?Yes, a caster level check is required, most likely versus Hit Dice of the creature.Thanks for the information. Does this mean that there is no need for caster level checks or are there?
If yes: Caster level vs. what?
If I'm right, you would use the Hit Dice of the gorgon as its caster level, so the DC would be 11 + 8 = 19.
If I'm right, you would use the Hit Dice of the gorgon as the caster level of the effect, so the DC would be 11 + 8 = 19.DC 8 then?Yes, a caster level check is required, most likely versus Hit Dice of the creature.Thanks for the information. Does this mean that there is no need for caster level checks or are there?
If yes: Caster level vs. what?
19 sounds right to me.
The problem isn't when it isn't temporary but when it has becomne temporary. See OP.
You lost me there.
I agree, DC 19 seems a reasonable approach.
The problem isn't when it isn't temporary but when it has becomne temporary. See OP.
You lost me there.
I agree, DC 19 seems a reasonable approach.
I meant: The problem isn't when it temporary but when it has become permanent. See OP.
I meant: The problem isn't when it temporary but when it has become permanent. See OP.The problem isn't when it isn't temporary but when it has becomne temporary. See OP.
You lost me there.
I agree, DC 19 seems a reasonable approach.
Dispel works fine for a permanent duration spell-like ability. I can't say as whether we'll likely see a spell-like ability that doesn't specifically mimic an appropriate spell, but had gorgon's breath been a spell-like ability (again, it isn't), it's description never mentions an instantaneous duration (which nerfs dispel magic).
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Rules as written
Flesh to stone:
Flesh to Stone
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (lime, water, and earth)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch.
Only creatures made of flesh are affected by this spell.
Break Enchantment:
This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is equal to the DC of the curse.
If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.
If the effect comes from a permanent magic item, break enchantment does not remove the curse from the item, but it does free the victim from the item's effects.
Break enchant would have worked if flesh to stone was 1 lvl lower, but per rules written break enchant will not free the victim.
Rules as written
Flesh to stone:
** spoiler omitted **Break Enchantment:
** spoiler omitted **Break enchant would have worked if flesh to stone was 1 lvl lower, but per rules written break enchant will not free the victim.
Gorgon's breath is not Flesh to Stone.
No in this case it's an effect created by a breath weapon.
So it's definitely not a spell -- and in this case, it definitely isn't restricted by break enchantment.
Only *spells* of 5th level or lower are affected.
And flesh to stone doesn't create a spell effect on the creature -- it gives the creature the petrified status.
Break enchant would have worked if flesh to stone was 1 lvl lower, but per rules written break enchant will not free the victim.
Flesh to stone can never be dispelled. Break enchantment ends the effect of the petrified status created by the flesh to stone spell.
Spells that are 5th level and lower are not affected. Status ailments (like the petrified status) aren't spells.
There is a caster level check though to end the effect. However, this is just based on the spell that created the status ailment. The spell doesn't constantly cause the petrified status -- it did it instantly and only once.
Break enchant would have worked if flesh to stone was 1 lvl lower, but per rules written break enchant will not free the victim.Flesh to stone can never be dispelled. Break enchantment ends the effect of the petrified status created by the flesh to stone spell.
Spells that are 5th level and lower are not affected. Status ailments (like the petrified status) aren't spells.
There is a caster level check though to end the effect. However, this is just based on the spell that created the status ailment. The spell doesn't constantly cause the petrified status -- it did it instantly and only once.
He is not talkingabout dispel magic. He is talking about Break enchantment and so am I.
"This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous [b]effect[/b}."
My bold.
The text does not exclude effects created by abilities that are not spells. A curse need not be caused by a spell nor need a petrified status be.
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Break enchant would have worked if flesh to stone was 1 lvl lower, but per rules written break enchant will not free the victim.Flesh to stone can never be dispelled. Break enchantment ends the effect of the petrified status created by the flesh to stone spell.
Spells that are 5th level and lower are not affected. Status ailments (like the petrified status) aren't spells.
There is a caster level check though to end the effect. However, this is just based on the spell that created the status ailment. The spell doesn't constantly cause the petrified status -- it did it instantly and only once.
He is not talkingabout dispel magic. He is talking about Break enchantment and so am I.
"This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous [b]effect[/b}."
My bold.
The text does not exclude effects created by abilities that are not spells. A curse need not be caused by a spell nor need a petrified status be.
See the quote from the spell description.
If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic or stone to flesh, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.
Note the limitation does not apply if the the affliction can be reversed by Stone to Flesh.