Hello, we are playing as lvl 4 characters in a campaign with medium to high magic. I'd like help with choosing what character would compliment/aid our party the most? I have made 3 concepts, new concepts are ofc more than welcome.
Atm our party consists of the following:
Cavalier 4 human
Groups leader, somewhat partyface (order of the sword I think..) Our tank and etc melee character uses mount when possible in combat.
Horrifyingly good dmg when crits with the mount lance.
Ranger 4 human (me, the one who is going to change at some point)
Damage dealer, archer, flat out the best damage so far in our party.
If read berserk manga, the archer apostle in griffiths army pretty much describes the concept and sums how it works in party.
Monk/Cleric, human lvl 1 monk lvl 3 cleric if memory serves.
Our partys healer, not sure how good in melee since hasn't been in melee that much. Uses positive energy to heal us and our mercenary group (lvl1 npcs etc.)
Alchemist 4 human
Alongside me the best damage dealer using lots of bombs, shocking bomb etc burning.
Makes all our potions, so we are always stacked with potions.
Arcane Duelist bard 4 human
He is a ranged dmg dealer also and so far a pretty good one, buffs to others, Partyface maybe in the future diplomacys. Buffs himself and does good dmg at least by the math I counted. Could replace my ranger? I ask you.
Now I know it's a horribly long post or so I think, but here are the characters I am thinking of making if my ranger dies and when he dies most likely.
Sorcerer, Arcane Bloodline, utility/buffs/blasting. Leadership feat to gain somesort of a cult around him etc. Group of loyalists and a wizard cohort with magic creation feats.
25point buy, (maybe made a mistake)
Str:7,Dex:14,Con:14,Int12,Wis:10,Cha:18+2
Rogue, Sneak attack,skills,maybe partyface like Jarlaxle? Evil but still nice in a nasty way.
25 point buy
Str:14,Dex:16+2,Con:14,Int:12,Wis:10,Cha:12
Cleric, now not sure, maybe evil touch cleric or a neutral all around cleric, I just love Urgathoa as a goddess somehow so fun.
Utility/buffs/heals etc.
25 point buy
Str:13,Dex:10,Con:14,Int:12,Wis:16+2,Cha:14
So what would you recommend me to pick? I love all the concepts and not sure which one to pick so I'd like to ask what of those might aid my group the most?
Both the rogue and the sorcerer bring something to the party that it does not already have. However, the party is otherwise very well-rounded with good arcane, divine, combat and skills across the board.
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I'd probably say Rogue or Summoner.
Both will give your Cavalier a flanking buddy and provide a good melee damage presence if played right. The Rogue will help with traps and locks, while the Summoner brings a tad more spells to the table.
Both can be nice viable options...guess its kind of up to you how you'd like to play.
druid, rouge, witch, Barbarian, gunslinger, Magus
I'd probably say Rogue or Summoner.
Both will give your Cavalier a flanking buddy and provide a good melee damage presence if played right. The Rogue will help with traps and locks, while the Summoner brings a tad more spells to the table.
Both can be nice viable options...guess its kind of up to you how you'd like to play.
Yeah of those two I'd definitely pick Rogue, skills are so wonderful :), also well the rogue can use UMD?
druid, rouge, witch, Barbarian, gunslinger, Magus
Hmm out of those I'd pick the Rogue and Gunslinger since they are interesting, barbarian while it's a neat class, I just want more not so pure raw power I guess, more skillful characters.
Both the rogue and the sorcerer bring something to the party that it does not already have. However, the party is otherwise very well-rounded with good arcane, divine, combat and skills across the board.
Yes my two favorites maybe ^^ since our campaign has large battles, where we command forces of maybe 250 soldiers and so on, I though the sorcerer could be a real wreckingball with a fireball and some wall spells later on, etc other AOE spells that affect enemies.
20 feet, all lvl 1 orcs burn instantly and also their lvl 3-4 leaders might die from it at lvl 6.
But then again we do not have any true stealth characters, maybe the bard somewhat but no one else is good, oh yeah my ranger is good but well no sneaky stabbers ^^ also no thieves and lockpickers.
Could use the rogue as an assassin.
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Yeah of those two I'd definitely pick Rogue, skills are so wonderful :), also well the rogue can use UMD?I'd probably say Rogue or Summoner.
Both will give your Cavalier a flanking buddy and provide a good melee damage presence if played right. The Rogue will help with traps and locks, while the Summoner brings a tad more spells to the table.
Both can be nice viable options...guess its kind of up to you how you'd like to play.
You can always play a Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist. Show your partner the bomber how to play a melee Alchemist.
Anyone can use UMD. It is a class skill for a Rogue. Only need a 20 to use a wand.
OK new concept
Another Bard
But go with Detective (gives up inspire courage for a bonus to some saves, perception, and initiative), Court Bard (gives up inspire courage for a debuff to hit and AC for enemies) or Archivist (gives up inspire courage for a Attack buff that STACKS with inspire courage)
Most of these also can be used with the Sound Striker Archetype which actually does a lot of damage when you get to level 6
All can do well with skills like the rogue, also, obviously work as the face if needed.
What do you think?
EDIT: I lied, only Detective Stacks with sound striker. But from what you have I think I would probably go for the Court Bard, which would be the most fun I think, and the skills will be insane with Versatile performance (especially if your DM lets you retrain skills after you get VP)
Have you thought about going into Arcane Archer w/ your ranger instead? Or is he going to die off?
Have you thought about going into Arcane Archer w/ your ranger instead? Or is he going to die off?
He stays pure ranger and I'm pretty sure he is going to die off sooner or later, I thought of AA but just didn't feel like it, he is a guide ranger.
OK new concept
Another Bard
But go with Detective (gives up inspire courage for a bonus to some saves, perception, and initiative), Court Bard (gives up inspire courage for a debuff to hit and AC for enemies) or Archivist (gives up inspire courage for a Attack buff that STACKS with inspire courage)
Most of these also can be used with the Sound Striker Archetype which actually does a lot of damage when you get to level 6
All can do well with skills like the rogue, also, obviously work as the face if needed.
What do you think?
EDIT: I lied, only Detective Stacks with sound striker. But from what you have I think I would probably go for the Court Bard, which would be the most fun I think, and the skills will be insane with Versatile performance (especially if your DM lets you retrain skills after you get VP)
I thought once of a dervish dancer bard but it passed off since you have to be NG and I prefer to be CN or NE etc characters ^^ with rogues and bards.
Our Bard doesn't have inspire courage since he is an arcane duelist, or doesn't it work like that?While bard is great I prefer Rogue simply because sneak attack and I don't know :) the concept? A rogue concept is just so great ^^
But I am sure one day I will be a bard. Geez I seem to be hard to please and not warming to all the other concepts even though they are great ^^
Yeah of those two I'd definitely pick Rogue, skills are so wonderful :), also well the rogue can use UMD?I'd probably say Rogue or Summoner.
Both will give your Cavalier a flanking buddy and provide a good melee damage presence if played right. The Rogue will help with traps and locks, while the Summoner brings a tad more spells to the table.
Both can be nice viable options...guess its kind of up to you how you'd like to play.
You can always play a Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist. Show your partner the bomber how to play a melee Alchemist.
Anyone can use UMD. It is a class skill for a Rogue. Only need a 20 to use a wand.
Nah I let him be the alchemist and I just don't want to pick exactly well ofc that's not exactly the same class but still.
Also not just my thing that beastmorph I think.
What do people think of the knife master archetype, is 1d8 sneak attacks worth the usually 1d4 weapons like daggers?
Also how can one make a single weapon rogue work if it ain't a brute character? Like the one in rogue eidolon's guide, I think it's great but don't care for a brute Rogue, if it's a rogue it's dex for me and I go for a single weapon or twf.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-a rchetypes/arcane-duelist
Duelist still has inspire courage, he loses other abilities
But no interest is no interest
It looks like your group has most of its bases covered, I'd just go with something that I thought was fun to play. If it was me, I'd probably play a wizard or sorcerer.
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What do people think of the knife master archetype, is 1d8 sneak attacks worth the usually 1d4 weapons like daggers?
Also how can one make a single weapon rogue work if it ain't a brute character? Like the one in rogue eidolon's guide, I think it's great but don't care for a brute Rogue, if it's a rogue it's dex for me and I go for a single weapon or twf.
Eh. I play with a knifemaster and I don't find it to be that good. Obviously just opinion, but if you like flavor you can always make a Ninja. Focus on dual wielding Wakazashi's (short swords with a higher crit range), and you'd get ki to turn invisible and do mirror image.
If you like utility and damage I prefer Ninja. If you like the whole trap side of the game and worry about Disable Device then I'd go Rogue.
Knifemaster is pretty alright honestly. At level one, 1d8 doesn't seem like much of a boost in damage (average of 4.5 with a potential for 8, instead of 3.5 with a potential for 6) but it does add up quite a bit. Especially if you decide to dual wield kukris. I see a lot of Scout/Knife Master combos where I am at. I personally like the Poisoner archetype and am playing that in a game.
If you like sorcerer and rogue why not opt for an arcane trickster ? Although I prefer the mage & rogue combo for this. You will have firepower, stealth and many other skills.
Yeah another melee and working with that character to do some teamwork feats would be pretty cool. You could take things like butterfly sting to fish for crits and outflank, put together some builds that can work together off of and create AOOs for each other, taking combat reflexes to maximize it. Then you are two deal machines shredding anything that is stupid enough to get between you.
The other thing you could look at is the inquisitor and his special abilities that allow you to get some free teamwork type of abilities, then you get to be the "face" as well and some good intimidation skills on top of it.
The bard can cover anything a rogue can except disable device. I wouldn't bother with a rogue archetype (including the ninja alternate class) that trades that out. May as well stick with ranger or bring another bard if you want skills. Or an inquisitor or another alchemist.
The roles you're looking at are:
Sorceror: Primary arcanist. Not the best class for the job because of the limited spells known, but it's a helpful role in any party.
Rogue: Trap Monkey, Skill Monkey. Sneak attack is not a role. It's a consolation prize for playing a non-martial class that's not a caster. Skills are pretty well covered. Par is traditionally 14+int skill points with one int based character and your party is at at 12+int with one int based character not counting your character. Alchemists aren't as SAD as Wizards so you may want at least a 4+int class or another int based class to bring the total up, but you're not in the hole.
Negative Energy Cleric: Secondary Tank, Secondary Healer. I wouldn't do it. I don't see anything to make a bad touch cleric worthwhile. Inflicts are weak. Negative Energy is diffuse. The evil spells aren't useful against the evil or neutral enemies adventurers most frequently face. Looks like an NPC build to me.
Of these three I'd take the Sorceror. I'd take the wildblooded version of arcane that uses intelligence for casting. You don't need another charisma based character. Charisma's effect on Leadership is insignificant unless you're replacing dead cohorts.
A trap disabling bard is another option. Sandman, Magician, Archaeologist, and Archivist can disable magical traps off the top of my head, but only Archaeologist gets a trapfinding bonus. None of them step on the AD's toes apart from sharing the same spell list, but being spontaneous casters you can have non-overlapping spells known pretty easily. A few things are worth overlapping like the self only spells and saving finale.
I'm not looking for ultimate optimisation powerplay, I just prefer rogue concept over bard, that's simply it, even if bard is 10x better dmg wise etc.
Also I prefer charisma sorceror just for the flavor again, better diplo checks etc. Simply flavor not the better option maybe.But true thank you for your insight that we do not maybe need an other charisma based character, I might think on Elven Sorcerer int based.
My thing is he's looking at a party with 1 melee...so doing something that puts another body in melee will not only help himself but help his Cavalier as well. Flanking makes everything better.
Sounds like inquisitor to me ;) which btw imo looks great but sneak attack is somewhat fun IMO so I might go rogue, maybe dervish dance feat with scimitar. It's true since only 1 melee character, if Sorcerer I hope we are lvl 7 when I get sorc, otherwise the rogue seems best.
Yeah another melee and working with that character to do some teamwork feats would be pretty cool. You could take things like butterfly sting to fish for crits and outflank, put together some builds that can work together off of and create AOOs for each other, taking combat reflexes to maximize it. Then you are two deal machines shredding anything that is stupid enough to get between you.
The other thing you could look at is the inquisitor and his special abilities that allow you to get some free teamwork type of abilities, then you get to be the "face" as well and some good intimidation skills on top of it.
Yeah inquisitor is a good option too, I am not looking maybe to be the face since it's a funny hierarchy, maybe the diplomat or the talker but not the leader :)
My first char which was a rogue died because I tried to be a fighter and didn't use flanking or good sneak attack dmg also DM then thought sneak attack is OP if all attacks have it so only 1 sneak attack per full attack etc.Different times now when I realise flanking rocks and sneak attack is the main combat method.
What do people think of the knife master archetype, is 1d8 sneak attacks worth the usually 1d4 weapons like daggers?
Also how can one make a single weapon rogue work if it ain't a brute character? Like the one in rogue eidolon's guide, I think it's great but don't care for a brute Rogue, if it's a rogue it's dex for me and I go for a single weapon or twf.
Eh. I play with a knifemaster and I don't find it to be that good. Obviously just opinion, but if you like flavor you can always make a Ninja. Focus on dual wielding Wakazashi's (short swords with a higher crit range), and you'd get ki to turn invisible and do mirror image.
If you like utility and damage I prefer Ninja. If you like the whole trap side of the game and worry about Disable Device then I'd go Rogue.
I think RP wise Ninja wouldn't work so I say no, would be hmm well lame in a sense to have ninja table when you are a scumbag rogue like the one at diablo 3. Otherwise sure.
I would recommend you consider a muticlass rogue/lore warden go for a tripping/disarming build and take some teamwork feats to work with the cavalier (when not mounted) in melee.
If you like sorcerer and rogue why not opt for an arcane trickster ? Although I prefer the mage & rogue combo for this. You will have firepower, stealth and many other skills.
It's a nice thing but I am maybe nitpicky here that I prefer full rogue or full sorc over that :)