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Let's say I've got a Mnk2/Ftr5. The PC's BAB is +6 which gives him iterative attacks at +6/+1.
What does the monk's flurry look like? Since the PC has only two levels of monk they would normally have +0/+0 for the flurry. I have no problem with adding the BAB from other classes which makes it +5/+5. But because the PC's BAB is +6, should there be another single iterative attack at -5 so the flurry becomes +5/+5/+0?
The description of flurry sounds like they want only the monk levels to count for the purposes of the flurry (which presumably includes the number of attacks), then add in the BAB of any other classes as appropriate (in this case only one other class, Fighter).
Let's say I've got a Mnk2/Ftr5. The PC's BAB is +6 which gives him iterative attacks at +6/+1.
What does the monk's flurry look like? Since the PC has only two levels of monk they would normally have +0/+0 for the flurry. I have no problem with adding the BAB from other classes which makes it +5/+5. But because the PC's BAB is +6, should there be another single iterative attack at -5 so the flurry becomes +5/+5/+0?
The description of flurry sounds like they want only the monk levels to count for the purposes of the flurry (which presumably includes the number of attacks), then add in the BAB of any other classes as appropriate (in this case only one other class, Fighter).
you would still only get the two attacks for the flurry but instead of it being +0/+0 it'd change to +5/+5 so, even though though you'd normally be getting an extr attack it doesn't count toward flurrying
There was another post on this. Ok, there are probably several post on this.
They should stack normally, to be 5/5/0. At least that is how I read it. I will stick with that until I find the previous post that went into the subject in detail.
this is actually correct. i'll see if i can find it, as i believe it is official. flurry is not TWF, just like it, and can not be used with it, or in combination with normal iterative attacks.
you would still only get the two attacks for the flurry but instead of it being +0/+0 it'd change to +5/+5 so, even though though you'd normally be getting an extr attack it doesn't count toward flurrying
I remember a post with an official answer also, but I could not find it.
this is actually correct. i'll see if i can find it, as i believe it is official. flurry is not TWF, just like it, and can not be used with it, or in combination with normal iterative attacks.
you would still only get the two attacks for the flurry but instead of it being +0/+0 it'd change to +5/+5 so, even though though you'd normally be getting an extr attack it doesn't count toward flurrying
Really? That doesn't seem right. How would a 6th level monk have 3 attacks (+4/+4/-1) when flurrying, then? He only gets one full bonus attack (minus the two weapon penalty of -2) which is the first +4, and one additional attack at full bonus for the flurry (minus the two weapon penalty of -2) which is the second +4; wouldn't the third attack at -1 be the iterative attack: 6(BAB)-2(two weapon penalty)-5(iterative second attack)?
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Lets start with getting this out there:
From the PRD:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
I highlighted the sentence in question..
By RAW a monk2/fighter5 would do a Flurry of blows BaB is @ +0/+0 + any strength, magic items, etc.. the way it is written, the Fighter BAB does not even enter into the picture. Now, of course, house rules can change this.
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Lets start with getting this out there:
From the PRD:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.I highlighted the sentence in question..
By RAW a monk2/fighter5 would do a Flurry of blows BaB is @ +0/+0 + any strength, magic items, etc.. the way it is written, the Fighter BAB does not even enter into the picture. Now, of course, house rules can change this.
What class is a Monk 2/Fighter 5?
Or in other words, would you not have (Monk's Base Attack Bonus = Monk's Level) + Fighter Base Attack Bonus = Flurry of Blow's Bab for a MonkX/FighterY?
For the basis of a Flurry of Blows, they are a Monk at level 2. I can find nowhere where is says to add other class BAB to FoB, since specific rules overrule general rules, and that wording is pretty exact.
Honestly I would house rule different in my games and allow the bab in this case to be +5/+5. +0/+0 for 2nd level monk, + 5 for fighter bab. but at that point it is a house rule and not RAW.
i don't understand the question. a level 6 monk gets 3 attacks when flurrying because the chart says that's how many he gets. that's how flurrying works.
The ability description specifically states that at 6th level flurry of blows gives the monk exactly ONE additional attack. By RAW, that can only mean that the 6th level monk has two normal attacks (one full, one iterative) based on his adjusted BAB (6) when flurrying, plus the ONE additional attack from the flurry ability.
Now, as was also referenced above, the description does state that the monk's BAB is equal to his monk level. So it would seem that the monk in question in the OP would be treated as having a BAB 2, and thus only the two +0/+0 attacks when flurrying. But when his monk level reaches the appropriate level (i.e., 6th, 11th & 16th), his flurry ability clearly triggers iterative attacks appropriate to his adjusted BAB when using flurry.
What class is a Monk 2/Fighter 5?
He is multiclass. He has a character level of 7, a class level of 5 in Fighter, and a class level of 2 in Monk.
Or in other words, would you not have (Monk's Base Attack Bonus = Monk's Level) + Fighter Base Attack Bonus = Flurry of Blow's Bab for a MonkX/FighterY?
Not when using Flurry of Blows (at least according to RAW). The Monk special ability Flurry of Blows specifically states that when making attacks using that ability the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his class level in monk. It does NOT say that the character's base attack bonus from his monk class is equal to his class level in monk, which is the way your formula seems to calculate it.
For the record, I think that the RAW on this is a tab harsh, but my campaigns (as a player or DM) rarely involve much multiclassing so it hasn't been much of a problem.
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It really helps if you view it as class level for ability, much like a druid's wildshape, or a caster's levels. Having 2 arcane caster classes (example Sorcerer 2/ Wizard 5) does not make the caster cast all spells at higher levels ,aka all spells @ level 7, they would cast spells from their sorc list @ level 2 and spells from the Wizard list @ level 5. It seams that Pathfinder ties the class features more closely with the levels in that actual class.
Now for their base attacks (non-Flurry of blows) they would get to add the Babs together, since it states that in the book.
By RAW a monk2/fighter5 would do a Flurry of blows BaB is @ +0/+0 + any strength, magic items, etc.. the way it is written, the Fighter BAB does not even enter into the picture. Now, of course, house rules can change this.
Luckily, you are flat out wrong.
Notice your own highlighted text says "the monk's base attack?" Only the monk base attack bonus is equal to the monk's level when flurrying. The fighter base attack bonus is wholly unaffected by those rules and applies to the total bonus normally.
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No no no... a Monk is a character who has levels in monk.
Base attack bonus is one number. The character has a base attack bonus of x.
It's not what you're trying to imply, with the character having a base attack bonus *monk* and a base attack bonus *fighter*.
Each class level adds to the characters base attack bonus. The character has one base attack bonus.
Therefore, For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level means that:
The "character with levels in monk"'s base attack bonus is equal to his monk level.
Since the first use of the word monk is to describe the character being affected, and the entry is in the monk section, we should assume that it is synonymous with "character".
The second use of monk is used in conjunction with level, specifying a class-limiting-level-limited feature.
In short, what I mean to say is:
Really? No, really?
I can't beleive I still can't find the old post. Is it on the site with the FAQ anyone? I think the clarifying post supported the 5/5/0 interpretation.
bump in case anyone missed it.
This time I will bookmark it.
Luckily, you are flat out wrong.
Notice your own highlighted text says "the monk's base attack?" Only the monk base attack bonus is equal to the monk's level when flurrying. The fighter base attack bonus is wholly unaffected by those rules and applies to the total bonus normally.
The italicized portions of your post are different, and that difference has meaning. A "boy scout's shirt" is any shirt belonging to the boy scout to which you are referring. A "boy scout shirt" is a shirt specifically designed and attributed to the boy scouts.
The "monk's base attack" is the base attack possessed by that monk. The "monk base attack" is the base attack attributed to being a monk.
However, while true, this distinction is apparently not controlling. Paizo has (according to the thread linked above) clarified their intent to be that any and all attack bonuses be included in flurry of blows, despite the actual wording of the ability description.
Luckily, you are flat out wrong.
Notice your own highlighted text says "the monk's base attack?" Only the monk base attack bonus is equal to the monk's level when flurrying. The fighter base attack bonus is wholly unaffected by those rules and applies to the total bonus normally.
The italicized portions of your post are different, and that difference has meaning. A "boy scout's shirt" is any shirt belonging to the boy scout to which you are referring. A "boy scout shirt" is a shirt specifically designed and attributed to the boy scouts.
The "monk's base attack" is the base attack possessed by that monk. The "monk base attack" is the base attack attributed to being a monk.
However, while true, this distinction is apparently not controlling. Paizo has (according to the thread linked above) clarified their intent to be that any and all attack bonuses be included in flurry of blows, despite the actual wording of the ability description.
Well of course they say the "monk's base attack" rather than monk base attack. The character is a monk. What else would they call him? "Adventurer?"
None of the classes assume multiclassing within their text. The way the monk class reads isn't going to be any different.
Well of course they say the "monk's base attack" rather than monk base attack. The character is a monk. What else would they call him? "Adventurer?"
Exactly. So the character's (monk's/adventurer's/etc.) base attack bonus when using flurry of blows would be equal to his monk level, period. Adding the BAB of other classes is not part of the description (though it was apparently intended).
None of the classes assume multiclassing within their text. The way the monk class reads isn't going to be any different.
No, but many of them have class abilities that disregard levels in other classes (rogue sneak attack ability, for one). Also, some have class abilities that expressly allow the adding of benefits from other classes. This includes the Monk's Maneuver Training, which specifically states that he substitutes his monk level for his base attack bonus, and that base attack bonuses from other levels are added normally. As written, the absence of that language from the Flurry of Blows description should indicate that the BAB from other classes is not included.
I take it as replace the monks BaB with his level.
Monk Level = New Monk BaB
Add the Fighter's BaB
Check the FoB table for the total BaB, that's what your FoB is.
The "character with levels in monk"'s base attack bonus is equal to his monk level.
That's RAI.
If what you wrote was correct, a monk1/fighter19 would flurry at -1/-1. Despite their years of training at attacking and such. Not only would it be unlogical, but it would also be unfair to the monk.
There are class abilities which rely only on class levels, others rely on character level. The additional attacks from Flurry of Blows rely on the class level, and the BAB is the sum of BAB from all classes.
Moreover, it has already been discussed...
That's RAI.
The "character with levels in monk"'s base attack bonus is equal to his monk level.
No, that is actually RAW. The English language has specific rules about the meaning of punctuation and grammar. And the punctuation and grammar of the RAW for that ability definitely state that the BAB from other classes do not add in. Apparently that was not what the developers intended, but it is certainly what they wrote.
If what you wrote was correct, a monk1/fighter19 would flurry at -1/-1. Despite their years of training at attacking and such. Not only would it be unlogical, but it would also be unfair to the monk.
Not really, since there would be no reason for him to have to use FOB. That's like saying it would be unfair to a rogue1/fighter19 to not allow his fighter levels to come into play for sneak attack damage. FOB is a specific Monk ability, and it would make perfect sense (and, imo, not terribly skew game balance) for other class levels to not apply when the monk is using this specific Monk-only ability. Again, it can't be deemed unfair to him because he is not forced to use it. In the Monk1/Fighter19 example you used, he would have his choice of the -1/-1 FOB attacks, or the +19/+14/+9/+4 normal attacks. Granted that's not much of a choice, but what level 19 fighter would realistically take a Monk level for the FOB ability when he could simply take the TWF feat at level 20?
There are class abilities which rely only on class levels, others rely on character level. The additional attacks from Flurry of Blows rely on the class level, and the BAB is the sum of BAB from all classes.
That is a very reasonable rule, and apparently the one intended by the devs. However it does not change the fact that the rule as written simply does not work that way. Base attack bonus is a statistic of a character. And "the monk's base attack bonus" specifies that statistic. Thus, the statistic for that character in the situation specified is as defined in that line; in this case, "his monk level."
Moreover, it has already been discussed...
As I've said, the developers clearly intended it to work one way, and inadvertently wrote it a slightly different way. It's not a big deal, but it should be noted for consistency's sake to avoid future confusion by similar wordings (or miswordings).
That's RAI.
The "character with levels in monk"'s base attack bonus is equal to his monk level.
No, that is actually RAW. The English language has specific rules about the meaning of punctuation and grammar. And the punctuation and grammar of the RAW for that ability definitely state that the BAB from other classes do not add in. Apparently that was not what the developers intended, but it is certainly what they wrote.
If what you wrote was correct, a monk1/fighter19 would flurry at -1/-1. Despite their years of training at attacking and such. Not only would it be unlogical, but it would also be unfair to the monk.Not really, since there would be no reason for him to have to use FOB. That's like saying it would be unfair to a rogue1/fighter19 to not allow his fighter levels to come into play for sneak attack damage. The sneak attack is a completely different aspect of combat that does not apply any of his previously learned fighter skills. FOB is the same way. FOB is a specific Monk ability that utilizes combat techniques that are totally different from the ones used by fighters (or any other class), and it would make perfect sense (and, imo, not terribly skew game balance) for other class levels to not apply when the monk is using this specific Monk-only ability. Again, it can't be deemed unfair to him because he is not forced to use it. In the Monk1/Fighter19 example you used, he would have his choice of the -1/-1 FOB attacks, or the +19/+14/+9/+4 normal attacks. Granted that's not much of a choice, but what level 19 fighter would realistically take a Monk level for the FOB ability when he could simply take the TWF feat at level 20?
There are class abilities which rely only on class levels, others rely on character level. The additional attacks from Flurry of Blows rely on the class level, and the BAB is the sum of BAB from all classes.That is a very reasonable rule, and apparently the one intended by the devs. However it does not change the fact that the rule as written simply does not work that way. Base attack bonus is a statistic of a character. And "the monk's base attack bonus" specifies that statistic. Thus, the statistic for that...
Base attack bonus is a statistic of a character.
It is? Really? What's the base attack bonus of a 9th level character?
Base attack bonus is a statistic of a character.It is? Really? What's the base attack bonus of a 9th level character?
I think this is about to get interesting.
<goes to get another bag of popcorn>
Base attack bonus is a statistic of a character.It is? Really? What's the base attack bonus of a 9th level character?
It is whatever the situational rules define it to be. In a normal attack, it is the sum of the base attack bonuses bestowed by all class levels the character possesses. In other situations, it is defined differently. In the RAW, when using Flurry of Blows, the character's Base Attack Bonus would be equal to the number of levels in the Monk class the character possesses.
The point, however, is that a character only has one "base attack bonus" statistic for any given situation. As evidenced by the character sheet, which does not list a "base attack bonus" entry next to each class of the character, but rather has one entry on the entire sheet for the character's "Base Attack Bonus". Like all other entries, that value can change due to circumstances (e.g., using Flurry of Blows).
In a normal attack, it is the sum of the base attack bonuses bestowed by all class levels the character possesses.
But I thought base attack bonus was only a statistic of a character? Classes are not characters. By your explanation, only characters have BABs, and classes are not involved.
BAB is a derived statistic. It is a characteristic of a character, but it is a characteristic that is derived from the parts of the character, including what classes he has. When the rules state that, for the purpose of FOB, "the monk's BAB is equal to their class level", that's exactly what it means. The monk's BAB is equal to the class level. This has no bearing on the fighter's BAB, or whatever other classes are involved in the mix. The formula for BAB is [BAB from Class 1] + [BAB from Class 2] + [BAB from Class 3] ... = [Character's BAB]. The Flurry of Blows text only affects [BAB from Monk]. It does not affect [Character's BAB] directly. It cannot affect [Character's BAB] directly. Nothing in the text of the rule states that it alters the entire character's BAB. If it had meant that, it would say "the character's BAB is equal to their class level".
That said, there is nothing stopping a monk 2/fighter 5 from getting the TWF and ITWF feat and using their fists as 2 light weapons.
Then they would attack a +4/+4/-1/-1.
The "character with levels in monk"'s base attack bonus is equal to his monk level.
That's RAI.
That's a prime example of a LE monk, spreading suffering by interpreting rules so they make the least possible sense but are still according to the written text.
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Base attack bonus is a statistic of a character.It is? Really? What's the base attack bonus of a 9th level character?It is whatever the situational rules define it to be. In a normal attack, it is the sum of the base attack bonuses bestowed by all class levels the character possesses. In other situations, it is defined differently. In the RAW, when using Flurry of Blows, the character's Base Attack Bonus would be equal to the number of levels in the Monk class the character possesses.
The point, however, is that a character only has one "base attack bonus" statistic for any given situation. As evidenced by the character sheet, which does not list a "base attack bonus" entry next to each class of the character, but rather has one entry on the entire sheet for the character's "Base Attack Bonus". Like all other entries, that value can change due to circumstances (e.g., using Flurry of Blows).
Actually, it's only situational in one circumstance - a monk's flurry of blows. In all other cases the BAB of a character is equal to the BAB of all class levels added together. In the monk's case his BAB, for flurry alone, equals his class level.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
Notice how my bolded portion does not mention that the "character's BAB equals his monk level" (Or conversely "character's BAB equals his character level"). In this case for the case of the monk class the BAB = monk level, and total BAB would be 2 (monk) + 5 (fighter). as he has a BAB of +7, he would have an attack bonus at +5/+5/+0.
However the better point is to look at a Monk2/Fighter6. This character would have a BAB of +8, but would only have 3 attacks. +6/+6/+1, not the same as a Monk8 which would have +6/+6/+1/+1. This is because the 8th level ability is dependent on monk level.
Looking at it another way, rules as interpreted, there is absolutely no reason to penalize a monk character for multiclassing having that character lose out on +5 BAB that the Fighter levels give. I would bet alot of money that this is how Paizo interprets the rules as well.
In a normal attack, it is the sum of the base attack bonuses bestowed by all class levels the character possesses.But I thought base attack bonus was only a statistic of a character? Classes are not characters. By your explanation, only characters have BABs, and classes are not involved.
What? What the heck are you talking about? Characters have classes, and based on those classes, the characters have a BAB. BAB. Not some, not several, but ONE. It is usually derived from adding the base attack bonuses of the class levels held by the character. In some cases, however, specific situations can change that calculation. Like when something inflicts a penalty on a character's BAB, it does not affect each class BAB; it affects the character's one sole statistic of BAB. Or like, for example, a situation where the rules state that only a character's monk levels apply to calculating BAB.
When the rules state that, for the purpose of FOB, "the monk's BAB is equal to their class level", that's exactly what it means. The monk's BAB is equal to the class level. This has no bearing on the fighter's BAB
So you think having two classes makes the character two people? One being "the monk" and the other being "the fighter"? If something reduces "the monk's" hit points to zero, is the fighter still okay? Are there two different saving throw pools, too? I mean, if Still Mind only affects "the monk's" saving throws, does "the fighter" still have to make a save without the bonus?
The formula for BAB is [BAB from Class 1] + [BAB from Class 2] + [BAB from Class 3] ... = [Character's BAB]. The Flurry of Blows text only affects [BAB from Monk].
Except that it completely does not say that. As you just pointed out, the BAB from his Monk class is "BAB from Monk"; not "the Monk's BAB."
If it had meant that, it would say "the character's BAB is equal to their class level".
The paladin ability Aura of Courage says, "At 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear. . . ." Do you think that means only the character's paladin levels are immune to fear? Or is it using the term "a paladin" to refer to a CHARACTER with paladin class levels?
That is exactly what it the wording in FOB does. I specifically uses the possessive term "the monk's", which means belonging to a person who is a monk. The character with monk class levels is the person who is a monk.
Let me ask you this: if a trap description said that anyone attempting to disable the trap would have to make a save or else the trap would "drain one of the rogue's levels", would you think that the trap would only affect characters with rogue levels? Or would it apply to any character attempting to disarm it, because "the rogue" was meant to identify the character rather than specify a particular class? And would you find any difference in meaning between that and it saying that it would "drain one rogue level" from the disarming character?
Notice how my bolded portion does not mention that the "character's BAB equals his monk level" (Or conversely "character's BAB equals his character level"). In this case for the case of the monk class the BAB = monk level, and total BAB would be 2 (monk) + 5 (fighter). as he has a BAB of +7, he would have an attack bonus at +5/+5/+0.
Okay, I'll try to explain this another way.
In the phrase "the monk's BAB", "monk's" is a possessive noun. In the phrase "monk levels" or "monk class", monk is an adjective. As a noun, "monk's" can only refer to the character. To refer specifically to the character's levels in the monk class, it would have to be an adjective with an accompanying noun to modify (e.g., "level" or "class").
"The monk's" can only refer to the character, creature or person described, who for whatever reason is being ascribed the characteristic of being a monk (in this case, because the character does indeed have monk class levels).
Again, when Aura of Courage says "a paladin" is immune to fear, it clearly refers to the character; not the paladin class levels.
In the case of a monk2/fighter5, the monk2 and the fighter5 do not have BAB's; the CHARACTER has a BAB. That's why BAB appears on the character sheet with only one entry, separate from the class and level entries. It's not a statistic of the class levels, it's a statistic of the character DERIVED FROM the class levels. And anything that modifies, limits or changes the BAB would apply to the CHARACTER'S BAB unless it specified that it only applied to BAB a specific class. "The monk's BAB" is not "the BAB FROM monk".
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Notice how my bolded portion does not mention that the "character's BAB equals his monk level" (Or conversely "character's BAB equals his character level"). In this case for the case of the monk class the BAB = monk level, and total BAB would be 2 (monk) + 5 (fighter). as he has a BAB of +7, he would have an attack bonus at +5/+5/+0.Okay, I'll try to explain this another way.
In the phrase "the monk's BAB", "monk's" is a possessive noun. In the phrase "monk levels" or "monk class", monk is an adjective. As a noun, "monk's" can only refer to the character. To refer specifically to the character's levels in the monk class, it would have to be an adjective with an accompanying noun to modify (e.g., "level" or "class").
"The monk's" can only refer to the character, creature or person described, who for whatever reason is being ascribed the characteristic of being a monk (in this case, because the character does indeed have monk class levels).
Again, when Aura of Courage says "a paladin" is immune to fear, it clearly refers to the character; not the paladin class levels.
In the case of a monk2/fighter5, the monk2 and the fighter5 do not have BAB's; the CHARACTER has a BAB. That's why BAB appears on the character sheet with only one entry, separate from the class and level entries. It's not a statistic of the class levels, it's a statistic of the character DERIVED FROM the class levels. And anything that modifies, limits or changes the BAB would apply to the CHARACTER'S BAB unless it specified that it only applied to BAB a specific class. "The monk's BAB" is not "the BAB FROM monk".
Actually you are taking English grammar rules and assuming they work the exact way. While I don't have a quote right now in front of me (I will work on finding it), Paizo has specifically mentioned that when they say the "monk" or "paladin" or "class level" they are only talking about the class being written. Meaning when an ability says "At 5th level," it means at Monk 5. When it says "The monk's..." it is referring to only the levels of monk.
Conversely if the statement had been "The character's BAB is the monk's level," I would completely agree with you. Character BAB being the entire character (inclusive of all classes), and monk being only monk levels. However this is not what the rulebook says, and there is no way they would phrase it that way.
Again, you cannot take English grammar rules to heart when talking about D&D roleplaying rules. They do not mix 100%.
As a noun, "monk's" can only refer to the character.
Not even remotely true. A character class is an idea, and thus a noun. The name of the particular class (idea, and thus noun) we're discussing is "monk". Thus, "monk" is a noun that identifies an idea. It has nothing directly to do with a character. You can certainly call a character with the "monk" class a "monk", and it's perfectly valid, and in that case "monk" is a noun referring to a character. That is not the only possible reference that noun can have, however.
From the PFSRD:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
Emphasis mine
When they mean Character level, they say Character level.
You can't make a 19th level fighter/1st level monk with the equivalent of a 20th level monk's FoB.
From the PFSRD:What, exactly, were you trying to say with that? Simply quoting something and saying "Emphasis mine" is not a terribly compelling argument, especially when what you're emphasizing is already being actively discussed.
edited. I hadn't refreshed the page prior to posting. so I had missed that portion of the discussion...my apologies.
Heh. We're talking past each other. I started responding after your post but before your edit, but you had edited before I finished my post, then I deleted my post but not before you'd started responding it, but it deleted before you finished your response! Oh, the tangled webs we weave! :p
Correct, by the reading of the rules in this thread, the monk would only get additional attacks from Flurry of Blows based on their monk level. They would get a BAB for their flurry of blows equal to a 20th level monk using FOB.
This. A Fighter 19/Monk 1 would flurry of blows with +20 BAB, but would only get one extra attack on top of that, because he's not an 8th or higher level monk.
Correct, by the reading of the rules in this thread, the monk would only get additional attacks from Flurry of Blows based on their monk level. They would get a BAB for their flurry of blows equal to a 20th level monk using FOB.This. A Fighter 19/Monk 1 would flurry of blows with +20 BAB, but would only get one extra attack on top of that, because he's not an 8th or higher level monk.
I also agree.
A 1 Monk/19 Fighter would get 5 attacks on a FoB.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level...
One attack in addition to the attacks he is usually entitled by his BAB.
4 in case of a 19th level fighter plus one as if two weapon fighting.The difference is if:
1)
For a total BAB of:
+18/+18/+13/+8/+3
Which I believe to be correct and perfecly balanced.
2)
For a total BAB of:
-1/-1/-6/-11/-16
As King Joey's interpretation would imply?
Which is absurdly low making FoB an unusable ability if the character is not a pure class monk.
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That's a prime example of a LE monk, spreading suffering by interpreting rules so they make the least possible sense but are still according to the written text.
:p apparently I didn't push the tongue-in-cheek tone enough on that post. Still... I kind of like being a LE Monk...
Anyhow, the post was intended to make the interpretation issue obvious :( Can't expect the next version of the book to be cleaned up or more clearly defined otherwise.
What do we get if we mix the -1/-1 lvl 1 monk/19 fighter who's flurrying with the fumble rules from that other thread? Answer: life :p
Life rolls to confirm.
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In the phrase "the monk's BAB", "monk's" is a possessive noun. In the phrase "monk levels" or "monk class", monk is an adjective. As a noun, "monk's" can only refer to the character. To refer specifically to the character's levels in the monk class, it would have to be an adjective with an accompanying noun to modify (e.g., "level" or "class")."The monk's" can only refer to the character, creature or person described, who for whatever reason is being ascribed the characteristic of being a monk (in this case, because the character does indeed have monk class levels).
Again, when Aura of Courage says "a paladin" is immune to fear, it clearly refers to the character; not the paladin class levels.
In the case of a monk2/fighter5, the monk2 and the fighter5 do not have BAB's; the CHARACTER has a BAB. That's why BAB appears on the character sheet with only one entry, separate from the class and level entries. It's not a statistic of the class levels, it's a statistic of the character DERIVED FROM the class levels. And anything that modifies, limits or changes the BAB would apply to the CHARACTER'S BAB unless it specified that it only applied to BAB a specific class. "The monk's BAB" is not "the BAB FROM monk".
Man, I love your creative reimagination of the rules. I will definitely multiclass in as many classes as I can, so that I can stack so many class abilities where the RAW did not mention that a given level is a class level and not a character level.
OLD POST BUT:
FAQ:
Monk: The monk rules for flurry state, "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level." How does this interact with BAB from class levels and racial Hit Dice? Does a multiclassed fighter 19/monk 1 flurry as if his BAB were only +1?
A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9naz