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I think it shows they value space in their books more then WoTC did. Which makes sense, as they were trying to combine players handbook and DMs guide into one book.
Almost everything in the game "may break the laws of physics", especially since there isn't much pretension that Golarion even has the same physics as "the real world".
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Seems like an unlikely hypothesis to me.
I would guess that this change was done in the original Pathfinder printing. The most significant change when Pathfinder was originally published was increased abilities for the base classes. Clerics got some domain powers and new channel rules. Wizards got school powers. Sorcerers got bloodline powers. For the most part, these were nice, but nothing terribly significant to those classes.
On the other hand, Fighters got weapon and armor training. Barbarians got extremely potent rage powers. Rangers and Paladins got significant bumps as well. The rogue did indeed get a pretty crappy set of bonus abilities, but that seems more likely to be a mistake of design and overvaluing sneak attack then purposeful nerfing.
I think one would have a very hard time looking at the Pathfinder Core Rulebook compared to 3.5 D&D and making the case that Paizo was trying to nerf non-casters.
Seems like an unlikely hypothesis to me.
I would guess that this change was done in the original Pathfinder printing. The most significant change when Pathfinder was originally published was increased abilities for the base classes. Clerics got some domain powers and new channel rules. Wizards got school powers. Sorcerers got bloodline powers. For the most part, these were nice, but nothing terribly significant to those classes.
On the other hand, Fighters got weapon and armor training. Barbarians got extremely potent rage powers. Rangers and Paladins got significant bumps as well. The rogue did indeed get a pretty crappy set of bonus abilities, but that seems more likely to be a mistake of design and overvaluing sneak attack then purposeful nerfing.
I think one would have a very hard time looking at the Pathfinder Core Rulebook compared to 3.5 D&D and making the case that Paizo was trying to nerf non-casters.
Not if you look at the supplemental material (particularly Book of Nine Swords). Then it's very easy to make that argument. In fact, I just did.
Having played a lot of core 3.5 and core Pathfinder, I can say 100% that pathfinder treats martials much better then 3.5 ever did!
that's about space conservation, though i do remember someone saying either SKR or mark said that Ex abilities generally are beyond what is humanly capable.
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Having played a lot of core 3.5 and core Pathfinder, I can say 100% that pathfinder treats martials much better then 3.5 ever did!
Lolwut.
Mage Slayer...Stand Still...
Shock Trooper...
Spiked chain lockdown...
Also, the blinking acid-flask hurling rogue was intentionally made impossible.
All the tricks that, in 3.5, enabled the fighter or rogue to stay relevant a little longer have been either nerfed to hell and back or removed entirely.
I think it shows they value space in their books more then WoTC did. Which makes sense, as they were trying to combine players handbook and DMs guide into one book.
Almost everything in the game "may break the laws of physics", especially since there isn't much pretension that Golarion even has the same physics as "the real world".
Actually Golarian is on the "real universe"...Earth is a Planet in Golarian mythos... Cthulhu lives therr actually
Lolwut.
Mage Slayer... - not core
Stand Still.. - not coreShock Trooper... - not core
Spiked chain lockdown... - not a correct interpretation of the rules.
Also, the blinking acid-flask hurling rogue was intentionally made impossible.
All the tricks that, in 3.5, enabled the fighter or rogue to stay relevant a little longer have been either nerfed to hell and back or removed entirely.
Shrug. I think most of that stuff does not come close to what they did to improve the martial classes in general. Rogue did not get as much love as they may have needed, but pretty much every non-full caster class is better in Pathfinder. Paladins, rangers, barbarians, are hugely improved, and the CoDzilla effect has been drastically reduced.
EDIT: I also don't remember rogues having the ability to cast grease or blink or any other spell that is required to make them functional. I do recall lots of restrictions on sneak attack, d6hd, and lots of required skills that were consolidated by Pathfinder.I was exposed to a few 3.5 splat books, such as complete arcane and divine, and spell compendium, but based on their quality, I was not impressed enough to include them in my games, much less buy more splat books.
Lolwut.Mage Slayer... - not core
Stand Still.. - not core
Shock Trooper... - not core
Spiked chain lockdown... - not a correct interpretation of the rules.Shrug. I think most of that stuff does not come close to what they did to improve the classes in general.Also, the blinking acid-flask hurling rogue was intentionally made impossible.
All the tricks that, in 3.5, enabled the fighter or rogue to stay relevant a little longer have been either nerfed to hell and back or removed entirely.
Yes and what they've done to improve those classes post Core is "not much". Compare to 3.5 where the answer is "pretty much all the stuff". You may be right in regards to a very narrow sample, but that's all.
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Not if you look at the supplemental material (particularly Book of Nine Swords). Then it's very easy to make that argument. In fact, I just did.I think one would have a very hard time looking at the Pathfinder Core Rulebook compared to 3.5 D&D and making the case that Paizo was trying to nerf non-casters.
I'm sorry if I was unclear. I meant comparing Pathfinder Core to 3.5 core.
The fact that your first recourse was to throw out a very powerful splatbook sort of makes my case.
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In case you didn't know, a Core-Only 3.5 Wizard or Druid was STILL significantly more powerful than TOB classes.
Clerics were in the same ballpark as TOB but without splat help they didn't really overshadow TOB classes.
That isn't really relevant to the discussion. The question at hand is, if a line that was in 3.5 but removed from Pathfinder reveals something significant about the Pathfinder designers, specifically that they hate martials and were trying to weaken them compared to casters.
My counter, is that compared to the material they were replicating, they mostly decreased, rather than increased, the caster-martial disparity which makes it difficult to regard that missing line as having tremendous significance.
How great or terrible TOB was isn't relevant to that question at all.
Having played a lot of core 3.5 and core Pathfinder, I can say 100% that pathfinder treats martials much better then 3.5 ever did!
I agree with you 100% here. While I think there is still room for improvement, I recall some utterly useless fighters after about 6-7th level, beyond being simple meat shields for the casters.
Having played a lot of core 3.5 and core Pathfinder, I can say 100% that pathfinder treats martials much better then 3.5 ever did!I agree with you 100% here. While I think there is still room for improvement, I recall some utterly useless fighters after about 6-7th level, beyond being simple meat shields for the casters.
That could have also been from casters being rediculous iN 3.5 due to prestige class bloat... also druids could completely replace the fighter dueto how wildhspae works...
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Having played a lot of core 3.5 and core Pathfinder, I can say 100% that pathfinder treats martials much better then 3.5 ever did!It's a not-uncommon view that the best way to play 3.5 is to replace magic-using classes with psionic classes and to use Tome of Battle instead of any core martial. It took a third-party publisher to make that option possible in Pathfinder.
Path of War/Ultimate Psionics/Spheres of Power is a vastly more balanced way to play Pathfinder, too, so very little has changed in that regard.
Fergie specified Core.
As in, the Fighter isn't even as dangerous as the Druid's pet.
He might have specified Core, but honestly the Core Pathfinder Fighter is just as useless as the Core 3.5e Fighter, if not even weaker.
He might have specified Core, but honestly the Core Pathfinder Fighter is just as useless as the Core 3.5e Fighter, if not even weaker.Fergie specified Core.
As in, the Fighter isn't even as dangerous as the Druid's pet.
I think you are way off on that one. The feats alone are MUCH MUCH better, plus you have nice bits like weapon and armor training. Also, bravery might not be that great, but you know what is even worse? Not having bravery.
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Yep, cutting the individual combat maneuver feats into 2-3 separate feats each was a big buff to PF Fighters. PF Power Attack also isn't strictly less good than the 3.5 version. Can you see my eyes rolling?
The CRB for either game is really where the vast majority of ridiculous stuff in either game lies: the strongest classes (Wizard, Cleric, Druid) and the weakest classes (Rogue, Monk, Fighter) and that hasn't changed between 3.5 and PF.
SOME martials got nice things (Barbarians, Rangers and Paladins got a lot of neat toys coming to PF) but the ones that needed it the most got almost nothing.
Can you see my eyes rolling?
The rose tint on your glasses is almost opaque, so no, I can not see your eyes rolling around.
Might I suggest looking here, rather then relying on memory:
http://www.d20srd.org/
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What are you trying to prove, exactly?
Improved Bull Rush [General]
PrerequisitesStr 13, Power Attack.
BenefitWhen you perform a bull rush you do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender. You also gain a +4 bonus on the opposed Strength check you make to push back the defender.
SpecialA fighter may select Improved Bull Rush as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Improved Bull Rush (Combat)
You are skilled at pushing your foes around.Prerequisite: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a bull rush combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to bull rush a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to bull rush you.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a bull rush combat maneuver.
Greater Bull Rush (Combat)
Your bull rush attacks throw enemies off balance.Prerequisites: Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6, Str 13.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to bull rush a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Bull Rush. Whenever you bull rush an opponent, his movement provokes attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).
Normal: Creatures moved by bull rush do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Two feats to do the same thing as the 3.5 feat did, with the addition that your friends can take AoOs on the guy you bullrushed... but you're still down an extra feat. And this is AFTER the fact that the CMD mechanic scales MUCH faster than the 3.5 equivalent did. And you need to be 6th level before you're getting the same bonus to the check as you would have at level 1. All the 3.5 combat maneuver feats are like this.
There was also tons of math done at the beginning of PF that showed that 3.5 Power Attack was better for damage, because you could adjust it.
There's no rose-tinting here. I'm calling it as I see it.
Meh. I'm looking at losing +2 from the 3.5 feat, but not having to deal with touch attacks rolls and such. Hardly something that matters, especially with Pathfinders adjustments to size modifiers. Also, being in a grapple isn't nearly as debilitating as it once was (for better and worse). Feats like Greater trip allow you and your allies to take an AoO. Again, nothing to write home about, but not enough to make any real claims about.
Power attack is much better for one handed attacking in Pathfinder. It is not as versatile as it was in 3.5, but if you run the numbers through a DPR calculator, I think Pathfinder will probably come out ahead in almost every circumstance.
Honestly my point about feats was not to compare a 3.5 feat to it's Pathfinder equivalent, (some will come out ahead dodge, toughness, etc) but rather to look at feats that didn't exist in 3.5 core. For example, deadly aim, all the critical feats, step up, lunge, disruptive, spell breaker, etc. I'm not saying these feats are fantastic, but they exist.
I found the 3.X opposed ability score checks (with one side or the other sometimes getting a MASSIVE arbitrary bonus, so the die roll was often either a crap shoot or a joke) to be a pretty awful mechanic, and I don't miss it in the slightest.
Also, the dueling weapon enchant out of Pathfinder Society Field Guide (the book Agile's from) is your best friend if you're serious about combat maneuvers.
I was annoyed at first with the maneuvers feat splits, but in actual practice I've found the Greater feats lines to be completely worth it (especially the AoO granting ones - do your positioning right and you can outright kill a foe with a combat maneuver).
Heh. A number of the Bo9S disciplines were rather blatantly magical in nature and shouldn't have been (Ex) abilities in the first place (Hi Devoted Spirit! Though the Desert Wind abilities ARE explicitly supernatural).
The Bo9S stuff carried with it the encounter power mechanic, which the Paizo Devs have largely rejected (and where it exists (ex., rage powers), it's rarely explicitly an encounter power but rather has some other limiter on it (like 1/rage) that can even be bypassed (rage cycling)).
@ OP: A number of (Ex) abilities still do break physics/reality (such as rogue & ranger Hide in Plain Sight), so I question whether the removal of the "breaks physics" language actually means anything.
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Meh feats that exist don't change the fact that the PF Fighter is as bad or worse than the 3.5 Fighter was, due to feats being weaker in general.
All this is mostly meaningless, however, because the PF Fighter is STILL absolute garbage, after years of archetypes, splatbooks and new feats. Even trading out LITERALLY all of your features except bonus feats (Eldritch Guardian/Martial Master/Mutation Warrior combo) only brings a Fighter around the level of a Paladin or Ranger, who were good to start with and have gotten new toys since Core.
Comparing 3.5 CRB to PF CRB is pretty much a pointless thought experiment. The stuff outside of the CRB, for both systems, is almost 100% more balanced and reasonable than the stuff found within. And that's before you look into ToB/Psionics vs. PoW/Psionics/SoP.
All this is mostly meaningless, however, because the PF Fighter is STILL absolute garbage, after years of archetypes, splatbooks and new feats. Even trading out LITERALLY all of your features except bonus feats (Eldritch Guardian/Martial Master/Mutation Warrior combo) only brings a Fighter around the level of a Paladin or Ranger, who were good to start with and have gotten new toys since Core.
In Pathfinder, I can build a fighter who can participate very well in CR appropriate encounters, at least up to the teen levels. I honestly don't know why you find them to be "absolute garbage".
YMMV I guess...
I found the 3.X opposed ability score checks (with one side or the other sometimes getting a MASSIVE arbitrary bonus, so the die roll was often either a crap shoot or a joke) to be a pretty awful mechanic, and I don't miss it in the slightest.
Also, the dueling weapon enchant out of Pathfinder Society Field Guide (the book Agile's from) is your best friend if you're serious about combat maneuvers.
I was annoyed at first with the maneuvers feat splits, but in actual practice I've found the Greater feats lines to be completely worth it (especially the AoO granting ones - do your positioning right and you can outright kill a foe with a combat maneuver).
Heh. A number of the Bo9S disciplines were rather blatantly magical in nature and shouldn't have been (Ex) abilities in the first place (Hi Devoted Spirit! Though the Desert Wind abilities ARE explicitly supernatural).
The Bo9S stuff carried with it the encounter power mechanic, which the Paizo Devs have largely rejected (and where it exists (ex., rage powers), it's rarely explicitly an encounter power but rather has some other limiter on it (like 1/rage) that can even be bypassed (rage cycling)).
@ OP: A number of (Ex) abilities still do break physics/reality (such as rogue & ranger Hide in Plain Sight), so I question whether the removal of the "breaks physics" language actually means anything.
Evasion probably counts for that as well. Somehow, I don't think physics is being entirely unbiased when a rogue or monk can dodge the blast-wave of a hundred pounds of C4 being set-off only a hundred feet away. Though, that's probably less 'breaking' and more 'bending in uncomfortable ways'.
This explains... so... much.
Sad, isn't it?
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All this is mostly meaningless, however, because the PF Fighter is STILL absolute garbage, after years of archetypes, splatbooks and new feats. Even trading out LITERALLY all of your features except bonus feats (Eldritch Guardian/Martial Master/Mutation Warrior combo) only brings a Fighter around the level of a Paladin or Ranger, who were good to start with and have gotten new toys since Core.
In Pathfinder, I can build a fighter who can participate very well in CR appropriate encounters, at least up to the teen levels. I honestly don't know why you find them to be "absolute garbage".
YMMV I guess...
If you only consider combat, yes. If you consider having any use outside of combat then the Fighter is the worst class in the game. It has the fewest skill points, the least benefit from raising Intelligence, zero class features that help it do anything but hit things. It is so pointlessly one-dimensional, with no value outside of hitting things.
If that's all you want from a character, fine, but I expect my characters to actually be good at the various parts of the game, instead of sitting around bored while my party handles anything that can't be fixed with "kill it".
If you only consider combat, yes. If you consider having any use outside of combat then the Fighter is the worst class in the game. It has the fewest skill points, the least benefit from raising Intelligence, zero class features that help it do anything but hit things. It is so pointlessly one-dimensional, with no value outside of hitting things.
If that's all you want from a character, fine, but I expect my characters to actually be good at the various parts of the game, instead of sitting around bored while my party handles anything that can't be fixed with "kill it".
OK, well if you are going to ignore the class features that allow faster movement in armor, as well as reduced AC check penalty, and give a boost against fear, and the ability to swap out feats, then you are correct, the other class features are about hitting things. You are also disparaging a failure to benefit from intelligence, that is apparently shared by every class except the wizard? So just to be clear, you think the Fighter is "absolute garbage" because of how the class performs outside of a Fight.
If Pathfinder prevented or restricted multi classing the way AD&D did, you might have a point. However, the fighter class delivers what it promises. If you want all these other abilities, just multiclass - bard is super cool for example. If you want to be better at fighting, that is the whole point of taking a level of fighter.
EDIT: Also, the Pathfinder fighter has all of those class features, yet is somehow worse then the 3.5 fighter?
I think our mileage varies considerably!
The fighter is terrible outside of combat, and it does not get enough in combat to make up for that. The barbarian as an example is equally as good at killing things, and it can do things outside of combat, and everything you named is just there to make sure it stays around and hits things. You can't really hit things if you are unconscious or running away. So Seranov does have a point.
Also it can only swap out fighter feats which are combat feats. To only says it can swap out feats as if it can swap out any feat is not exactly fair.
The fact that it has 2 skill points is one issue, but its class skills are also poor. The cleric only has 2 skills, but it gets useful skills.
Just because something delivers what it promises that does not make it adequate, and actually depending on how you read the text it does not deliver on what it promises. Just like the core monk the flavor does not exactly hold up well in game.
They certainly are not "Lords of the battlefield,". "Rousing the hearts of armies" is also not what a fighter does. That sounds more like a bard. That is two failed promises already.
edit: I do agree that it is better than the 3.5 fighter, but that is not a high bar to jump over.
The PF fighter is better then the 3.5 Fighter.
however, there are some VERY nice combat feats from 3.5 that are nerfed in PF.
Stand Still is one of those...it made the Fighter a lockdown tank.
They gave Robilar's Gambit away to the Barbarian, but not to anyone else. Best combat kill mechanic in the game, Barb only. 3E power attack is better IF you have unlimited BAB/TH, because the cap is much, much higher. If you are playing a 'normal' game, then PF is indeed better. And definitely easier to calculate.
Full move in armor is done with mithral armor. You can BUY that class ability. The ACP thing is basically irrelevant. Fast move +10 is much more valuable then 'I move normally.'
Fighter has no class abilities that benefit from being 'smart'...except the Expertise feat, which sucks as it stands, and is a feat, not a class feature. In short, a genius fighter just has a few more skill points. Wahoo.
Fighters have no leadership abilities, despite the core justification of the fighter being legendary fighters of history, almost all of whom were great leaders/generals.
Fighters are not rewarded ANYWHERE by high Charisma. Leadership feat is DM elective, not a class ability. Ergo, no social skills. No great commander of men.
Fighters have no defenses against magic to speak of that are not superceded by every other martial class, despite living in a world where defense against magic should be paramount.
Fighters are superceded at every single one of the core martial functions of Champion, Sentry, Marshal, Teacher, Hunter and Soldier except soldier by other martial classes. And that's only because soldiers are grouped by weapon spec and feats more then any other common paradigm.
==Aelryinth
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I disparage the Fighter because he can't perform outside of a fighter because everyone else can fight, too, and often just as well or better than the fighter. He has no real reason to exist.
Bravery is a joke. Armor and Weapon Training are minor boosts, at best, and neither is defining or actually helps the Fighter do things anyone else couldn't do. The Fighter's class features only help him fight, but Pathfinder is not a miniature wargame. So much of the game is outside of combat that a class that can do nothing but combat is a waste of ink. Even in a game that is 100% combat, the Fighter doesn't bring anything meaningful to the table: a Barbarian wearing a Breastplate is moving just as fast as a Fighter wearing one (if not moving faster!) and is better both in and out of combat, to boot. And that's just comparing to his mundane cousin, and not to any of the various other ones who replace him.
Like I said, if you like twiddling your thumbs while the party handles everything that isn't combat, the Fighter is probably fine for you. But that sound so unbelievably boring that it makes me wonder why you'd even want to be there in the first place.
So, to get back on topic, Ex abilities may not say they can break the rules of physics, but they should be able to. Because putting that restriction on the already-beleaguered mundane martials is just making things worse for them.
I so enjoy watching those melee types scurry...
Well, back to the original post, it may not have said clause anymore, but you can find PLENTY of examples of Ex abilities that not only break the laws of physics, but basic biology and chemistry as well. And that's just in Core.
Low-Light Vision and Scent rage powers. Because that would have to alter the physical, chemical, and biological makeup of the barbarian's eyes or nose to function.
A monk's fast movement, scaled up to level 20 let's said monk run (as per the action) 60 feet per second. Need I even explain why that is breaking the laws of physics?
Timeless Body as per the monk/druid ability. People in the real world don't just stop aging.
Venom Immunity as per the druid ability. No one is immune to poisons in real life. Trust me.
And that's not even getting into MONSTER abilities!
Well, back to the original post, it may not have said clause anymore, but you can find PLENTY of examples of Ex abilities that not only break the laws of physics, but basic biology and chemistry as well. And that's just in Core.
** spoiler omitted **
And that's not even getting into MONSTER abilities!
Uncanny Dodge is specifically unrealistic since it's reacting before you sense there is danger.
Well, back to the original post, it may not have said clause anymore, but you can find PLENTY of examples of Ex abilities that not only break the laws of physics, but basic biology and chemistry as well. And that's just in Core.
** spoiler omitted **
And that's not even getting into MONSTER abilities!
Scent and Low-Light vision aren't "breaking physics". People IRL have such acute senses, and senses are often heightened when adrenaline is high. you might have a point if it gave him DARkvision, but not Low-Light.
Fast Movement lets a Monk move 90 feet per THREE seconds, or 30 feet per second. Which is, by what I've been able to find, actually slightly SLOWER than Usain Bolt, a real, human Olympic sprinter. Though, to be fair, the Run action boosts this So, super-human, but not PHYSICS BREAKING (a human with sufficiently powerful bones and muscles could achieve that speed, as that's about as fast as a cheetah in a sprint, IIRC, roughly 60 MPH).
Timeless body does not prevent aging, it prevents PENALTIES from aging. I.E. you're a very healthy old man, which also exists IRL.
Venom immunity doesn't break physics either, though exceeds the limits of human biology, again.
Caught me mid edit.
Doesn't break physics, just current human biological limits.
Uncanny Dodge doesn't let you react before you sense, Uncanny Dodge lets you react before your "senses would normally allow [you] to do so". It just shortens the time between "Sense" and "React" to functionally nil.
Very good reflexes, not precognition, and therefore not physics breaking.
Alright. A new set then.
Night Vision (Ex): The barbarian's senses grow incredibly sharp while raging and she gains darkvision 60 feet. A barbarian must have low-light vision as a rage power or a racial trait to select this rage power.
Slow Fall (Ex): At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm's reach of a wall can use it to slow his descent. When first gaining this ability, he takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk's ability to slow his fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with his monk level until at 20th level he can use a nearby wall to slow his descent and fall any distance without harm. (A level 20 monk could fall off the tallest building in the world and not even get a scratch)
[Wizard Abjuration School Power] Resistance (Ex): You gain resistance 5 to an energy type of your choice, chosen when you prepare spells. This resistance can be changed each day. At 11th level, this resistance increases to 10. At 20th level, this resistance changes to immunity to the chosen energy type.
[Aberrent Bloodline] Long Limbs (Ex): At 3rd level, your reach increases by 5 feet whenever you are making a melee touch attack. This ability does not otherwise increase your threatened area. At 11th level, this bonus to your reach increases to 10 feet. At 17th level, this bonus to your reach increases to 15 feet. (Bones that stretch out and then reform seconds later?)
[Undead Bloodline] One of Us (Ex): At 20th level, your form begins to rot (the appearance of this decay is up to you) and undead see you as one of them. You gain immunity to cold, nonlethal damage, paralysis, and sleep. You also gain DR 5/—. Unintelligent undead do not notice you unless you attack them. You receive a +4 morale bonus on saving throws made against spells and spell-like abilities cast by undead.
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PF fighter IS better outside combat compared to the 3.5 version by virtue of it's 2 skill points (and favored class extra which 3.5 didn't have if desired) alone.
Because of the PF skill system revamp, you don't invest 2 skills for 1 rank in cross class skills and are also not double punished by capping at half max ranks. You CAN make your fighter a face if desired.
Yet even if he doesn't outshine a bard, he WILL outshine that 3.5 fighter by a landslide.
Skill consolidation allows him to get hide and move silently for 1 skill point.
Spot, listen, and search for one skill point.
Superior in every way.