You should take into consideration that a cleric can choose the Healing domain, getting better heals.
You should take into consideration that a cleric can choose the Healing domain, getting better heals.
But by what I see the Paladen also seems to get more bang for the buck with Extra Channel and they can take extra lay on hands feats.
a cleric can only take Extra Channel...
Toss in that a paladen can lay on hands and produce the equivalent of two or three spells with one heal... hell they can snap players out of stun,as they heal
They have better armor so they can live "in the fight" way better then any cleric.
I have been thinking on how to model this and there are a lot of assumptions which we would have to agree on. Are we using builds optimized for healing or something more generic. I suspect if we optimized for healing then the paladin may edge out the cleric by taking extra lay on hands for every possible feat slot. So the first step in getting an answer would be define the rules of comparison.
|
Been working on a spreadhseet for this. Here are my assumptions (This is for healing only, have not worked on status effects):
- Main Casting stat starts out at 18
- At every stat level increase the character will increase their main casting stat (Paladin CHA, Cleric WIS)
- Both classes will use their entire spell repertoire for healing. The cleric will convert all spells into the "Cure" line and prepare mass heal for level 9 spells **This means that 6th, 7th, 8th level spells will be used for cure spells, not for heal despite heal healing for more.
- I have included totals for Single Target, 2 Targets, 4 targets, 6 targets, and 8 targets. Only spells/abilities can hit multiple targets will affect this. NOTE: The paladin's single target and 2 target numbers are equal. This is because channel energy, her only multiple target ability, costs 2 lay on hands uses.
- The cleric has no domains, and neither character has any feats. Additionally neither character has any items.
Very unreadable table of a selection of the raw numbers. To view post into word and do a replace all for "***" to a tab.
Class***Level***1Target***2 Targets***4 Targets***6 Targets***8 Targets
Paladin***2***17.5***0***0***0***0
Cleric***2***37***54.5***89.5***124.5***159.5
Paladin***5***55***55***139***202***265
Cleric***5***152***187***257***327***397
Paladin***10***229***229***404***579***754***
Cleric***10***446.5***563***796***1029***1262
Paladin***15***449.5***449.5***827.5***1163.5***1499.5
Cleric***15***841.5***1223.5***1987.5***2751.5***3515.5
Paladin***20***807***807***1367***1927***2487
Cleric***20***2032***3560.5***6617.5***9674.5***12731.5
Essentially, it comes down to how many targets there are. The more targets there are to heal the cleric edges ahead more and more. Whereas with 8 targets at level 20 the cleric can heal approximately 5 times more HP than the paladin. Even at level 2, the cleric can heal double the paladin for single target. At level 5 when both have access to multiple target heals, the cleric is still 1.5-3 times more effective. Take this as you will, and remember this uses alot of assumptions and isn't the most efficient spell use, nor likely scenario (Not all channel energy will use to heal, nor will all spells be used to heal). I'd imagine with Healing domain the effectiveness of the cleric would shoot through the roof.
|
|
Other observations:
- The cleric has more healing power using channel energy than the paladin until level 10, where the paladin then surpasses the cleric
- Using just Lay on Hands versus Cleric Channel energy, the paladin has significantly more healing for single target.
- For Paladin, 70-75% of the single target healing potential comes from Lay on Hands. Spells have a very minor role in their healing ability, contributing only approximately 30% of their max healing at best.
- Heal makes the cleric numbers jump up very very very high.
Ok let me define what I ment
the Paladen is a better combat healer... and in Pathfinder Society campaign... that is what matters...
The Paladen can get into the thick of things, heal and snap people out of being stuned (which is HUGE) as well as drop area effect heals.
The more I look at the Paladen the more I wish they removed the Alignment restriction...
Impressive analysis.
|
Ok let me define what I ment
the Paladen is a better combat healer... and in Pathfinder Society campaign... that is what matters...
The Paladen can get into the thick of things, heal and snap people out of being stuned (which is HUGE) as well as drop area effect heals.
The more I look at the Paladen the more I wish they removed the Alignment restriction...
Ehh I argue that point with veracity good sir.
Being a paladin is about being a scion of good and justice in society. It takes the expectation that you are in fact a scion of good and justice. It is because of this fact, that the gods have decided to gift you with unique abilities. That morale code is as defining of the paladin as the knights code is for the Knight, and the vow that a Kensai had to make is as well.
To change that flavor is to create a whole new class. You want more of a holy fighter than a real paladin. Which unfortunately would most likely preclude the Lay of Hands ability, since that is iconic Paladin.
Also at level 11 Clerics get heal, its at the tail end of their career, but they become the better healers at that point.
Yeah, I feel that the paladin shouldn't have gotten Channel Energy. They're still much improved with the better smite and lay on hands; getting CE steps on the cleric too much.
Having said that, CE is great for combat healing... My (admittedly Beta) cleric seldom used healing spells and almost never in combat, that's what Channels were for.
|
|
Yeah, I feel that the paladin shouldn't have gotten Channel Energy. They're still much improved with the better smite and lay on hands; getting CE steps on the cleric too much.
Having said that, CE is great for combat healing... My (admittedly Beta) cleric seldom used healing spells and almost never in combat, that's what Channels were for.
That's a grandfathered in class feature, as paladins had turn attempts in 3.5. Figure that was a nod to the fact they're priests as well, they just are a bit more templar than missionary.
Yeah paladin's have always had the turn undead, it's just always been seperate (not a huge deal IMO) and it's been weaker than the Clerics... which isn't the case now.
However if the cleric has a charisma 16 and the paladin has a charisma 16 (got to buy something other than cha to fight, and in the clerics case maybe not a front line fighter relying on spells like divine favor and shield of faith) then the cleric is diffinently ahead.
A "healbot" cleric is going to have as much Charisma as they get get truthfully and with the alignment channeling and elemental channeling feats there is a good chance that you could end up with a situation where the cleric has a channel to hurt anything (excluding golems currently).
In fact a negative energy cleric really could end up doing damage to everything around it with those feats (not all at once but as he comes across things he could make new choices of what to channel against).
I also ran these numbers while I was calibrating the "healing song" for my bard.
The cleric's "channel energy" increases at a rapid linear rate, while the paladin's increases at a slower exponential rate (because he has to spend two lay-on-hands to get one channel-energy, but unlike the cleric, he gains new uses/day as he gains levels). Assuming a 16 CHA and a 4-man party, the paladin ties the cleric at level 18, and surpasses him at level 20.
In actual fact, looking at what they can both do with channel energy doesn't give a very good view of their real capabilities. The high-level cleric is only going to channel energy out of combat, as in combat, he has heal. The paladin doesn't have that, but he can heal the ever-loving-crap out of himself, and his mercies can also be a lifesaver.
Personally I don't mind pally stepping on cleric's toes a little.
It allows party cleric to have some more fun with his spells and makes building a party without cleric somewhat easier.
Yeah, I'm with Hydro, here. Paladins can use non-spell healing better than Clerics can, but Clerics whomp Paladins royally in the "holy %$@* that dragon just did 200 damage to me ... MEDIC!" regard. I don't think you could get away with having a Paladin as a main healer, but they can fill a secondary healer role MUCH better than they were able to in 3.5 (which was pretty laughable).
|
|
Yeah, I'm with Hydro, here. Paladins can use non-spell healing better than Clerics can, but Clerics whomp Paladins royally in the "holy %$@* that dragon just did 200 damage to me ... MEDIC!" regard. I don't think you could get away with having a Paladin as a main healer, but they can fill a secondary healer role MUCH better than they were able to in 3.5 (which was pretty laughable).
Actually I think they could be the "main" healer per se. The party would just have to compensate for not having a "bandaid" healer. I.E. the paladin would be up front attempting to take as much damage as possible, swift action healing almost every round.
That's true, a paladin is one heck of an anvil. Play him right and you don't need a medic.
Actually I think they could be the "main" healer per se. The party would just have to compensate for not having a "bandaid" healer. I.E. the paladin would be up front attempting to take as much damage as possible, swift action healing almost every round.
No, a Paladin really cannot be a primary/only healer. There are enemies in the game that can easily deal hundreds of damage to a single target in one round of combat, and the Paladin simply can't heal that much damage -- his maximum is 120/round for a very limited number of rounds. In addition, those enemies that are capable of dealing that much damage are usually smart enough not to waste it on the tin can that can heal itself for 120 damage/round. Paladins are capped at 60 damage/round on other party members, and you start fighting enemies capable of dealing more than that consistently in the low double digit levels, if not earlier. Paladins just cannot keep up with the amount of damage enemies in D&D can dish out.
However, they do make excellent secondary healers and condition healers, and could probably combine with another secondary healer (bard, etc) to fill a party's healing needs.
|
I also completely disagree with the idea that the paladin cannot be the primary healer for the party. I think he makes an excellent primary healer. And if you need the heal spell that bad assuming it's available spend a few points on UMD and use scrolls of heal. That having been said, I don't think he touches the cleric in terms of being the best healer in any way. With either class you need one feat to make them really work. If you want your pally to be primary you're gonna need selective channeling, if you want your cleric in the mix healing, youre gonna need heavy armor proficiency. So since they both have a feat cost to be effective neither has an advantage there, then you look at spells vs LoH, and a cleric has a lot more spells than a paladin has LoH. I've played a paladin with a cleric in the party, trust me, clerics will outheal you every time. especially once they get access to the heal spell.
The more I look at the Paladen the more I wish they removed the Alignment restriction...Ehh I argue that point with veracity good sir.
Being a paladin is about being a scion of good and justice in society. It takes the expectation that you are in fact a scion of good and justice. It is because of this fact, that the gods have decided to gift you with unique abilities. That morale code is as defining of the paladin as the knights code is for the Knight, and the vow that a Kensai had to make is as well.
To change that flavor is to create a whole new class. You want more of a holy fighter than a real paladin. Which unfortunately would most likely preclude the Lay of Hands ability, since that is iconic Paladin.
Also at level 11 Clerics get heal, its at the tail end of their career, but they become the better healers at that point.
Why can't a paladen of lets say a NG god lay on hands?
The Paladen's alignment should have been "Any Good"
It's the goodness of heart that allows them to do what they do.
|
|
Um they can. The paladin has to be lawful good, not the diety.
Why can't a paladen of lets say a NG god lay on hands?
Extending that, technically a Paladin doesn't have a restriction on gods alignment. While it would be a very far stretch to have a Paladin of an evil god, I could very easily see a LG paladin of a CG god or N god, although even by cleric standards a Paladin could have a NG or LN god.
Lawful Goodness: From normal men I will craft my servants, but they will be more than normal men. They will wear the finest armor and wield the strongest weapons, and they will follow the most stringent of codes, and they will deal judgment and mercy in equal measures, and they will...
Neutral Goodness: Is all that really necessary?
LG: Absolutely. How can you say it is not?
NG: Well, you don't have to have such a strict code and such to do good in the world. In fact, it can actually get in the way if...
LG: Lawful Good does not compromise. There is only one Right Way.
NG: Yes, but, what's wrong with a lawful good cleric?
LG: A cleric is fine, if you're not Lawful and Good enough to be a paladin. My servants are on a different order of Good from yours, and will be a living demonstration of the superiority of Law and Good.
NG: Uhh, okay, whatever you say.
LG: And they shall smite evil, and it shall be awesome, and their armor shall shine like silver, and they shall polish it twice per day, and I shall not grant them any spells at all until they have proven that they can follow the path, and they shall be sexy and the power of their smite shall be based on their sexiness, and....
Chaotic Goodness: Screw you guys! My guy isn't going to be anything like that. I mean, except for the 'sexy' party.
NG: "cg cleric" doesn't work for you either, I take it...?
CG: Well, they can if they want. I'm not the boss of them. Or they can, you know, fight with whips and rapiers, and get drunk and woo maidens, and have bluff as a class skill
LG: And their good saves shall be will and fortitude, but not reflex, and their eyes shall be as a righteous fire, and their boxers shall be white with blue stripes and shall be washed weekly, and...
NG: I don't see what's wrong with a cleric, frankly.
CG: Cleric are so oppressed! They spend all day sucking up to some big powerful jerk who can take all their powers away.
NG: Technically, they don't have to have a diety.
CG: Freak'in right they don't! My guys are going to be arcane spellcasters, and they're
LG: And they shall be best at healing themselves, for they are more important th-.. wait, what?
NG: Arcane?
CG: Yea, you heard me! ARCANE! What, does independence scare you?
NG: But.. arcane magic can't heal.
CG: He'll be able to heal anyway!
NG: Oh, good lord...
CG: And he'll totally be about, like, art, and self expression, and he'll use illusions spells to trick people, and he'll be able to schmooze his way out of anything, and-
LG: That's not a priest class, that's a bard.
CG: No, not like that! He'll be all about inspiring hope and courage, and I won't say he HAS to be good or chaotic but he usually will be, and-
LG: Like a bard.
NG: Yea, dude, that's definitely a bard.
CG: ...
LG: ...
NG: ...
CG: SO?!?
Lawful Goodness: From normal men I will craft my servants, but they will be more than normal men. They will wear the finest armor and wield the strongest weapons, and they will follow the most stringent of codes, and they will deal judgment and mercy in equal measures, and they will...
Neutral Goodness: Is all that really necessary?
LG: Absolutely. How can you say it is not?
NG: Well, you don't have to have such a strict code and such to do good in the world. In fact, it can actually get in the way if...
LG: Lawful Good does not compromise. There is only one Right Way.
NG: Yes, but, what's wrong with a lawful good cleric?
LG: A cleric is fine, if you're not Lawful and Good enough to be a paladin. My servants are on a different order of Good from yours, and will be a living demonstration of the superiority of Law and Good.
NG: Uhh, okay, whatever you say.
LG: And they shall smite evil, and it shall be awesome, and their armor shall shine like silver, and they shall polish it twice per day, and I shall not grant them any spells at all until they have proven that they can follow the path, and they shall be sexy and the power of their smite shall be based on their sexiness, and....
Chaotic Goodness: Screw you guys! My guy isn't going to be anything like that. I mean, except for the 'sexy' party.
NG: "cg cleric" doesn't work for you either, I take it...?
CG: Well, they can if they want. I'm not the boss of them. Or they can, you know, fight with whips and rapiers, and get drunk and woo maidens, and have bluff as a class skill
LG: And their good saves shall be will and fortitude, but not reflex, and their eyes shall be as a righteous fire, and their boxers shall be white with blue stripes and shall be washed weekly, and...
NG: I don't see what's wrong with a cleric, frankly.
CG: Cleric are so oppressed! They spend all day sucking up to some big powerful jerk who can take all their powers away.
NG: Technically, they don't have to have a diety.
CG: Freak'in right they don't! My guys are going to be...
Good stuff :)
In my opinion the question is beside the point. A cleric is a cleric, not a healer. Healing is one of the things a cleric can do that most other classes can't, yes. Still, the entire point behind Turn Undead becoming Channel Energy is that healing isn't the purpose of the cleric class. CE was created specifically to reduce the cleric conversion of interesting spells (and thereby actions) into cure spells.
It doesn't matter if the Paladin out-heals a cleric. Again, healing is but part of the class. Having two significant options as to where a party can obtain its healing is a great thing. In my humble opinion, the statistics and breakdown and comparison don't really matter except in an intellectual optimization sense.
But that's just me.
Duuuuuuude. Only weekly? These are paladins.
LG: And their good saves shall be will and fortitude, but not reflex, and their eyes shall be as a righteous fire, and their boxers shall be white with blue stripes and shall be washed weekly, and...
Cleanliness is next to (L)awful Goodliness, right?
Duuuuuuude. Only weekly? These are paladins.
LG: And their good saves shall be will and fortitude, but not reflex, and their eyes shall be as a righteous fire, and their boxers shall be white with blue stripes and shall be washed weekly, and...
Exactly. Which is why they are keenly aware of their civic duty to conserve fresh water.
...
Oh, wait, clerics can still produce 1,200 gallons of water per level with an hour of prayer. Nevermind.
Been working on a spreadhseet for this. Here are my assumptions (This is for healing only, have not worked on status effects):
Did you just go with the mathematical average of each spell, normed by caster level?
I realize you purposely excluded feats, but I would guess that the numbers go even more toward the cleric as Empower spell and Maximize spell become available, given the clerics greater access to spells per day.
In my opinion the question is beside the point. A cleric is a cleric, not a healer. Healing is one of the things a cleric can do that most other classes can't, yes.
Not necessarily disagreeing with your main point, but 5 out of the 11 core classes can heal via spells, 6 if we count rogues who focus on UMD. Also, the Monk can self heal, so the number of classes with access to magical or supernatural healing ability is greater than the list of classes with no access to only mundane healing ability.
In my opinion the question is beside the point. A cleric is a cleric, not a healer. Healing is one of the things a cleric can do that most other classes can't, yes.Not necessarily disagreeing with your main point, but 5 out of the 11 core classes can heal via spells, 6 if we count rogues who focus on UMD. Also, the Monk can self heal, so the number of classes with access to magical or supernatural healing ability is greater than the list of classes with no access to only mundane healing ability.
Sure, granted, and I know you're accepting what I'm saying. Rogue healing, bard healing, even ranger healing are so far off the map in terms of being more than support healing that they might as well be a bunch of purchased potions. "Front line healing" is kind of what I took this to be discussing.
|
|
Been working on a spreadhseet for this. Here are my assumptions (This is for healing only, have not worked on status effects):
Did you just go with the mathematical average of each spell, normed by caster level?
I realize you purposely excluded feats, but I would guess that the numbers go even more toward the cleric as Empower spell and Maximize spell become available, given the clerics greater access to spells per day.
Yes, I used 4.5 per die for cure spells and 3.5 per die for Lay on Hands/Channel Energy.
I knew that feats would skew it more towards cleric... but I'd rather not be biased towards one or the other, leaving it more or less on "equal" grounds. With healing domain there's actually absolutely no question who is a better healer, and that's definitely the cleric.
I think it all depends on the build and the feats chosen. But I think focusing on healing the Cleric is the better healer.
I say this because Cleric gets healing spells at level 1 where as the Paladin get orisons at 4th and level 1 spells at 5th. Since both builds focus on healing the Cleric takes the Scribe Scroll feat and create healing scrolls. Say by 3rd level they take the feat then have enough gold to create the scrolls. The Paladin can do the same but they start at 5th getting Cure light wounds where the Cleric is scribing Cure Serious. As well the Cleric is can use 5 cure lights, 4 Cure Moderates, 3 Cure serious. The Paladin is casting 2 Cure light. The Cleric gets 5 Channel Energies with 14 Chr. The Paladin get 5 Lay on hands. Both can take extra channel feat and the paladin can take extra lay on hands for so he comes to 7 lay on hands and 2 channels vs the clerics 7 channels.
So assuming both were human. That's 1 feat for Human, 1st, 3rd and 5th for 4 feats. 1 for scribe scroll, 1 for extra channel for the cleric leaving two feats saw skill focus healing and brew potion so he can make potions. The paladin spend extra lay on hand, extra channeling, scribe scroll, and skill focus healing.
In the end you have a Cleric doing more healing but the Paladin isn't far behind and will get better as they go up in level with those lay on hands. But the Cleric get 50% more on the heal at 6th level pushing the cleric ahead by a bit again.
|
|
I say this because Cleric gets healing spells at level 1 where as the Paladin get orisons at 4th and level 1 spells at 5th.
Ummm paladins never get orisons,at 4th level they get 1st level spells, some orisons on the cleric list got bumped to 1st level spells but the paladin doesn't have any 0-level, nor the ability to cast at will.
|
|
Duuuuuuude. Only weekly? These are paladins.
LG: And their good saves shall be will and fortitude, but not reflex, and their eyes shall be as a righteous fire, and their boxers shall be white with blue stripes and shall be washed weekly, and...
Was it the Queen victoria who said that a queen shall always be an example and have a bath at least once a month ... "whether she needs it or not".
:D
BTW HYDRO you really made me laugh !!!
|
|
My 2 Euros :
I believe it's a good thing that Pally is now good at healing.
My players are not optimizers crazy and are all into RP.
They are composed of a Bard, a Monk, a Scout (complete adventurer 3.5) which I'll have to upgrade to PFRPG, and a Paladin.
Really far from the typical party type.
When I was discussing about it with players and/or other players they were saying : "WHAT ??? YOU MEAN YOU DON'T HAVE A CLERIC ? ARE YOU MAD OR SOMETHING ? It's going to be a TPK and so on"
Even on that forum.... :D
Well I have to agree in many ways that having no healer was a real pain for them and I had to imagine use of Heal skill to get back a few hit points (just like treat deadly wounds does it now).
Now the Paladin ,assisted by the bard, can take the Heal job and we don't HAVE TO have a cleric.
So cleric is a better healer probably but paladin is now pretty damn good at it ! and that is a good point.
|
|
"WHAT ??? YOU MEAN YOU DON'T HAVE A CLERIC ? ARE YOU MAD OR SOMETHING ? It's going to be a TPK and so on"
Heh, I've always hated that mentality, I've run a game with a ranger, fighter, sorcerer, and a bard (one that couldn't buy wands of cure light wounds), so the only healing they ever had was the one or two cures that the bard would memorize, he never learned scribe feats either. So the party had negligible healing and did just fine for 12 levels. You've never needed a cleric in DnD you just need to be adaptable and take more effort to prepare.
Ran some numbers on the bard and found a focused healing bard can be a very good healer. The real punch comes in at 12th level when the bard gets soothing performance. Even assuming a charasma of 16 and never taking extra performance a 20 level bard can use it 11 times a day. So one more reason to have a bard hang around.