I guess this is more based on 3,5 than PF, but its not something that i believe the PF rules cover (don't think its been mentioned in the other bard threads - apologies if i missed
in all i've seen 3 bards played in 3,5. none of them have used a musical instrument, all have taken singing or oratory as their perform skill
the logic goes like this
if i sing, then i can swing a sword and attack / defend while using my perform skill
if i play an instrument i can perform and move
if i sing then i can never be disarmed
if i play an instrument the first ogre music critic i meet will reduce it to a pile of matchwood
so no-one plays instruments
so my proposal is -
a bard playing an instrument that requires both hands should be able to cast spells simultaneously with his perform ability (i'd say the somatic components are perfromed with the instrument)
a bard using only his voice cannot cast spells and perform
i'm going to trial this in my game but thoughts? comments? pitfalls?
I guess this is more based on 3,5 than PF, but its not something that i believe the PF rules cover (don't think its been mentioned in the other bard threads - apologies if i missed
in all i've seen 3 bards played in 3,5. none of them have used a musical instrument, all have taken singing or oratory as their perform skill
the logic goes like this
if i sing, then i can swing a sword and attack / defend while using my perform skill
if i play an instrument i can perform and move
if i sing then i can never be disarmed
if i play an instrument the first ogre music critic i meet will reduce it to a pile of matchwood
so no-one plays instruments
so my proposal is -
a bard playing an instrument that requires both hands should be able to cast spells simultaneously with his perform ability (i'd say the somatic components are perfromed with the instrument)
a bard using only his voice cannot cast spells and perform
i'm going to trial this in my game but thoughts? comments? pitfalls?
I like this idea, either this or some other bonus to bardic music performed with instruments like the effect bonuses increased but that might be a little too much.
I'm going to play a bard soon, and I chose 3 performance skills:
Sing
Comedy
String
As weapons, I chose a rapier, and a heavy crossbow as my main weapon.
Generally, I'll raise party morale by singing rousing songs or make fun of enemies (either to give us bonuses or to weaken them) while shooting with my crossbow.
But if I need a little extra boost with my performance, I'll break out the masterwork instruments and play the enemy against the wall.
The thing is that you can't get a masterwork singing voice, but you can get a masterwork lute. Or even a magical harp!
I'm going to play a bard soon, and I chose 3 performance skills:
Sing
Comedy
StringAs weapons, I chose a rapier, and a heavy crossbow as my main weapon.
Generally, I'll raise party morale by singing rousing songs or make fun of enemies (either to give us bonuses or to weaken them) while shooting with my crossbow.
But if I need a little extra boost with my performance, I'll break out the masterwork instruments and play the enemy against the wall.
The thing is that you can't get a masterwork singing voice, but you can get a masterwork lute. Or even a magical harp!
There's a good point i totally missed. But normal instruments are still more in the way than helping.
The thing is that you can't get a masterwork singing voice, but you can get a masterwork lute. Or even a magical harp!
You might not be able to buy a Masterwork Singing Voice, but you certainly can purchase a Masterwork Composition. The song itself can add a +2.
Also, since your perform check doesn't actually matter for using Bardic Music, a +2 is meaningless.
The OP is right, there is no reason for a Bard to use an instrument (barring magical instruments with unique abilities); the Song and Silence and Complete Adventurer rules for Masterwork instruments and their unique abilities were the only reasons.
-Matt
Also, since your perform check doesn't actually matter for using Bardic Music, a +2 is meaningless.
You know, not everything is about combat. Something's not meaningless just because it can't increase the damage total.
You know, not everything is about combat. Something's not meaningless just because it can't increase the damage total.
Also, since your perform check doesn't actually matter for using Bardic Music, a +2 is meaningless.
quite agree - but thats why i want to give something to PC's who play a bard with an instrument something back.
the last 2 players of bards i've seen are NOT powergamers by any stretch of the imagination, but they just saw too many penalties for having their hands full with an instrument in combat.
actually this was all brought about by a pub discussion on favoured instruments for the races (fwiw brass for dwarves, percussion orcs, something complex with lots of levers & bellows for gnomes, strings for elves, woodwinds for halflings. bagpipes would be considered a crime against humanity). we started talking about wind instruments penalising spell casters before we double checked rules and worked out that no instrument allowed spell casting.. and then we asked why not?
I think allowing a two-handed instrument bard to cast spells is a reasonable idea. I can see no reason NOT to allow it, as it balances the two options. Really, the biggest reason, in my campaigns (which, I'm aware, are not the campaigns of others) is that I like flavorful magical items, which means instruments are frequent. Maybe we need more magical instruments! (or for a masterwork instruments bonus to apply to save DCs).
Director of Games
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Hi there all,
It should be known that I am currently thinking about the possibility of allowing bards to cast bard spells while using bardic performance, regardless of the type. This does not seem too overpowering to me, especially for a class like the bard.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hi there all,
It should be known that I am currently thinking about the possibility of allowing bards to cast bard spells while using bardic performance, regardless of the type. This does not seem too overpowering to me, especially for a class like the bard.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Sounds great. It's not as if they spread destruction left and right. Plus, bardic performance is performance based. Bard spells are performance based (or should be). I don't see why they can't combine the two.
count me in favor of combining the 2
Hi there all,
It should be known that I am currently thinking about the possibility of allowing bards to cast bard spells while using bardic performance, regardless of the type. This does not seem too overpowering to me, especially for a class like the bard.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
if everyone can cast spells, then the advantage goes back to the singer who has a sword and can take aoo's etc
i'd just like to see some benefit to the bard with an instrument that matches what the singing performer gets.....
Sounds great. It's not as if they spread destruction left and right. Plus, bardic performance is performance based. Bard spells are performance based (or should be). I don't see why they can't combine the two.Hi there all,
It should be known that I am currently thinking about the possibility of allowing bards to cast bard spells while using bardic performance, regardless of the type. This does not seem too overpowering to me, especially for a class like the bard.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Thirded.
...
if everyone can cast spells, then the advantage goes back to the singer who has a sword and can take aoo's etci'd just like to see some benefit to the bard with an instrument that matches what the singing performer gets.....
That's the way I see it too. Maybe instruments could allow casting and Oratory or Singing could allow attacking (concentration as a move action), opening variant choices to the players, ex.: Howling-Skald vs Spell-Fiddler.
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A bard casting bard spells like Charm Person, Sound Burst, Shout, or Suggestion while singing, dancing, or playing an instrument?
That sounds completely out of character for a bard, and should never be allowed under any circumstances.
WARNING: The above sentence is sarcasm. Such sentences should be read carefully, as they often have a significantly different, if not opposite, meaning than the words as printed. You should not engage in the operation of heavy machinery or motor vehicles while under the influence of sarcasm. Sarcasm lasting longer than four hours could be the sign of a serious medical condition, and a physician should be consulted immediately. Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
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Phlebas: On a related note, the splatbook Complete Adventurer had various bonuses for using different masterwork instruments with different bardic music effects. If you have access to a copy, it might be what you are looking for.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The thing is that you can't get a masterwork singing voice, but you can get a masterwork lute. Or even a magical harp!You might not be able to buy a Masterwork Singing Voice, but you certainly can purchase a Masterwork Composition. The song itself can add a +2.
That sounds pretty cheesy. I doubt I would allow it as a DM, or if it did work you would have to be holding the sheet music while performing to get the +2, just like you have to use any other masterwork tool to get the +2.
Also, since your perform check doesn't actually matter for using Bardic Music, a +2 is meaningless.
No argument here, PF-wise. In 3.5 it mattered what your perform check does, and I guess it still does in PF for countersong and distraction, but none of the other bardic abilities.
The OP is right, there is no reason for a Bard to use an instrument (barring magical instruments with unique abilities); the Song and Silence and Complete Adventurer rules for Masterwork instruments and their unique abilities were the only reasons.
-Matt
It's true. I wouldn't mind seeing a benefit for an instrument.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Hi there all,
It should be known that I am currently thinking about the possibility of allowing bards to cast bard spells while using bardic performance, regardless of the type. This does not seem too overpowering to me, especially for a class like the bard.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I like the idea, with the following questions appended:
1. To go with the OP's question, is there any advantage to using an instrument vs. using your voice or dance? Currently the answer is no, and there is a significant downside (having your hands full and/or your mouth used for blowin'). Perhaps working in some kind of benefit for instruments to counterbalance the inherent advantages of using your 'natural instruments' for performance would be most welcome.
2. A related issue is whether a bard can use performance to disguise spellcasting - to cast a spell without it being apparent. I believe there was a feat to this effect, but it is something that everyone who has ever cast charm person would like to see - some way to do it without being obvious about it.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Bards in my campaign always went the inspiring oratory route rather than the singing, dancing, wtf-is-that-guy-doing-in-a-dungeon route. My experience is that players who go the guitar-playing route are annoying on the same level as players who choose kenders or kleptomaniacal halflings.
Anyway, I'm not a big fan of bards needing an instrument, and the more the class can be viable without requiring the annoying performer shtick, the happier I am. Even in 2e, we held our noses and played the bard because he had an interesting mix of abilities.
Not everything needs to give you a solid in-game benefit for making a choice. Using an instrument simply because it fits your character's personality is a good enough reason, I think.
But at the same time, one should not be mechanically punished, as we've established, for making that choice.
-Matt
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Hi there all,
It should be known that I am currently thinking about the possibility of allowing bards to cast bard spells while using bardic performance, regardless of the type. This does not seem too overpowering to me, especially for a class like the bard.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
not overpowering, actually shouldbe default
sounds good indeedthe saturday we meet an ally who was hurt, my 'bard' gave a couple of orders in elven and the ally healed... she has oratory asher perform and fancies herself a captain... she doesn't sign or dance, she gives order and rousing speeches... so i feel it added if i did the same while casting spells.
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Spells while performing makes sense, especially if their way of casting is by playing music, etc.
But it would be nice if there was some advantage to using an instrument vs. just singing or orating. One clearly cannot swing a sword and play an instrument at the same time. Somehow, there ought to be some benefit or bonus for the player who forgoes attacks to play music.
I like the idea of an instrument as a focus kinda' thing. Bards could cast without one, but they cast better with one. This would probably mean re-arranging the different perform skills, though. Each one would need to be do-able with or without an instrument. In a way, this make sense because, come on, keyboard? A guy plays piano and I'm inspired to greatness? It seems to me it's the voice that, like the verbal part of a spell, releases the magic. The instrument helps, but it's the voice that does the job. Maybe for oratory and comedy, it could be some kind of prop instead of an instrument or an instrument that accompanies the verbal portion of the performance.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Not everything needs to give you a solid in-game benefit for making a choice. Using an instrument simply because it fits your character's personality is a good enough reason, I think.But at the same time, one should not be mechanically punished, as we've established, for making that choice.
-Matt
James has a point, of course, but I will agree with Matt here. It's not that it's approximately equal choices where you are making your choice for flavor. It's that to fit your character's personality you have to (in this case literally) play with your hands tied. Which = lame.
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Hi there all,
It should be known that I am currently thinking about the possibility of allowing bards to cast bard spells while using bardic performance, regardless of the type. This does not seem too overpowering to me, especially for a class like the bard.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I think it's a great idea because it's not difficult to imagine a bard working magical power into the words/notes of a song/performance. But the issue still remains then of how to balance bards with instruments vs. bards without... I know a lot of the 3.5 bards I played with went without for the same reasons mentioned in this thread.
I think a good start could be as simple as having an instrument increase the effectiveness of the various bardic music abilities. Then the player needs to choose between stronger bardic music or more combat savvy.
Not everything needs to give you a solid in-game benefit for making a choice. Using an instrument simply because it fits your character's personality is a good enough reason, I think.
i'll be using bards with instruments for that reason - flavour - but it does feel like there's a harsh penalty for it
Perform:Comedy natural 20
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Phlebas: On a related note, the splatbook Complete Adventurer had various bonuses for using different masterwork instruments with different bardic music effects. If you have access to a copy, it might be what you are looking for.
I think one of my freinds has this one so i'll mine it for ideas.
thanks for the tip!
(i just had a thought - would a mastercrafted custard pie give a +2 circumstantial modifier.....)
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Perform:Comedy natural 20
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Phlebas: On a related note, the splatbook Complete Adventurer had various bonuses for using different masterwork instruments with different bardic music effects. If you have access to a copy, it might be what you are looking for.
I think one of my freinds has this one so i'll mine it for ideas.
thanks for the tip!
(i just had a thought - would a mastercrafted custard pie give a +2 circumstantial modifier.....)
Only if immediately followed with blast from a masterwork bottle of seltzer. :-)
I think it may be neat if we could work in Bardic Colleges again, where each one was associated with an instrument (Ollamh Harp. Fochluchan Bandalore, etc.. for instance)or focus and provided the Bard with special (or spell like)abilities.
I suspect that considering the numerous revisions to the Bard, that such an upgrade would not pass the "Overpowered litmus test", but it would certainly be flavorful and enriching.
Mayhap the Bard could form a "bond" (I know I know) with an instrument that would allow them to access special abilities at higher levels. I had been playing around with this concept using the specialist wizard as a template, but it seems somewhat forced and artificial as I have constructed it so far.
In other words I am not that happy with my work to date, but the concept still intrigues me.
If I could get it together to revise it, I'll post it somewhere but I am not sure its even needed, it would just be in the order of a "pet project".
That being said, I agree that instruments add a lot of flavor and the Bard should be the gold-standard out-of-combat expert. All too often, at least in 3.5, the player with the Bard is forced to watch the Paladin, Barbarian or Fighter charge an enemy that may have been susceptible to charm or fascinate or something to the effect.
While that is an issue of play style in essence, there may be something that we could work on mechanically to improve the Bard's options under these circumstances.
Edit: to the Dev's: When you talk about combining performances and spellcasting are we talking about something like
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Hi there all,
It should be known that I am currently thinking about the possibility of allowing bards to cast bard spells while using bardic performance, regardless of the type. This does not seem too overpowering to me, especially for a class like the bard.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Yes Please, also spontaneous casting would be very useful for bards...
I particularly liked the bards for the Book of Eldritch Might series. Although I know that isn't backwards compatible, so I'm not asking for that.
I'm getting ready to play a bard in a PbP Beta Playtest...One Paellat "Pae" Silvertongue of Osirion. So I'll defintely be chiming in on what I think of the current bard.
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Hi there all,
It should be known that I am currently thinking about the possibility of allowing bards to cast bard spells while using bardic performance, regardless of the type. This does not seem too overpowering to me, especially for a class like the bard.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
+1 for this idea. Since Complete Scoundrel came out, every single bard i have seen/played (5-6 at least) have had that feat, simply so they don't have to keep dropping music simply to cast a healing spell or throw up haste on the 1st round of the 2nd combat of the day.
-t
I've played bards with instruments, for fun, and that's OK. I've also used the bard class as a kind of core Marshall, taking perform (oratory) and using the bard class to model a military leader who inspires his companions with tactical urgings. Requiring an instrument would sure hurt the latter. So, yeah, giving bonuses as a way of throwing a bone to the instrument guys is OK, but just don't nix the military commander type!
I've played bards with instruments, for fun, and that's OK. I've also used the bard class as a kind of core Marshall, taking perform (oratory) and using the bard class to model a military leader who inspires his companions with tactical urgings. Requiring an instrument would sure hurt the latter. So, yeah, giving bonuses as a way of throwing a bone to the instrument guys is OK, but just don't nix the military commander type!
pathfinder is all about giving options so i wouldn't like to nix the orators either. I do think that the ability to have weapons in hand counts for a lot in combat though. especially ranged weapons
all i ask for is a little love to the lute.....
all i ask for is a little love to the lute.....
D&D is all about the lute. Well, phonetically.
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Not everything needs to give you a solid in-game benefit for making a choice. Using an instrument simply because it fits your character's personality is a good enough reason, I think.Unless you're a powergaming munchkin that only looks at numbers. :)
No reason you can't have multiple perform skills, I had both. You get a +2 assist when accompanying yourself in perform checks(that might have been a houserule that we made up) and you get a +2 with masterwork instruments. At first level you can take 10 on both of those and 25 with 18 charisma(4) + 1 rank + 3 bonus + 3 skill focus and +2 to assist and +2 for masterwork. I did this with a monte cook bard and she was so much fun to play. By 7th level I could conceivably have a perform of +40 with a 19 or 20 which provided a lot of story hooks for us to follow.
Since we've got domains, bloodlines, and schools all using similiar mechanics, why not then add such a thing to the humble bard.
These "domains" could be something like instrumental, vocal, pantomime, or possibly other types of directions, like inspiring, or depressing et c. Have the domain grant a free skillpoint at each level for that particular type of performance as that would the bard's particular speciality.
Say you have a domain for playing musical instruments, now you can make it more powerful to compensate for the downsides listed above for pursueing such a path. Also you get more difference between an orator vs. musician for example.
I could see domains like
Instrumental (possibly subdivided into instrument types[sting, horn, percussion etc] or even specific instruments if you really wanted to go nuts)
Singing
Storytelling
Comedy
Drama
all with different benefits.
I've played bards with instruments, for fun, and that's OK. I've also used the bard class as a kind of core Marshall, taking perform (oratory) and using the bard class to model a military leader who inspires his companions with tactical urgings. Requiring an instrument would sure hurt the latter. So, yeah, giving bonuses as a way of throwing a bone to the instrument guys is OK, but just don't nix the military commander type!
thought about this again overnight
rather than think of instruments as a specific case lets look at the class again in terms of what benefits performance effects. and IMHO it comes down to props versus weapons
even a military leader/orator could have a benefit from a prop. wether its a ceremonial staff of office, swagger stick, flag or standard.
every dancer would benefit from castanets, ribbons, or even veils
comedians with a ladder or a jester with a balloon on a stick. singers with an instrument etc etc
so maybe the solution is to give a benefit from using any prop that prevents you from using a weapon. this means that any bard variant can choose between performing with sword or bow in hand OR using instrument / flag / custard piet etc to get a benefit to perform.
now the benefit could be as simple as +2 DC to the save against a performance effect - but now EVERY bard can make a valid choice between waving a weapon or concentrating on the performance
(I still like the idea of letting instrumentalists only get the spell-casting + perform but i can see some resistance to that idea so here's a compromise)
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I could see domains like...
I really like this idea actually. It would allow options and the ability to distinguish your bard from anyone elses bard. This is something that I feel lacks in the game for bards and one of the reasons I don't play them more regularly. If I make a bard, it's more or less going to be like the last bard I did. Oh sure, she might dance to get that bonus to morale, but really it doesn't make a whole lot of difference in how she plays. But having some interesting options for specialization would go a long way to making that a really interesting class to play above and beyond the norm. Something to give them more options to fill out the class would be great in my opinion, especially if you are going to stick to performers as the core of the class.
I've been shouting out the idea of new and more performance abilities on here for a while now, but it's nice to see it getting some traction finally.
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so maybe the solution is to give a benefit from using any prop that prevents you from using a weapon. this means that any bard variant can choose between performing with sword or bow in hand OR using instrument / flag / custard piet etc to get a benefit to perform.
now the benefit could be as simple as +2 DC to the save against a performance effect - but now EVERY bard can make a valid choice between waving a weapon or concentrating on the performance
(I still like the idea of letting instrumentalists only get the spell-casting + perform but i can see some resistance to that idea so here's a compromise)
I was fiddling with some similar ideas...
1) Maybe bardic performances are so intensive that you simply CANNOT wield a weapon at the same time, even if you are singing and doing oratory, not just playing an instrument. Orators, actors, dancers and singers need their hands free to gesticulate and such.
2) Or maybe hands-free performers (orators, singers, dancers, etc.) CAN use their hands to wield weapons and what not, but can't use their mouths to cast spells or activate magic items (dancers are too busy waving their hands to do the spell gestures). On the other hand, instrument player can't wield weapons but can use their voices to cast spells and activate magic items.
3) Or maybe everyone needs a prop of some kind, even singers, dancers, etc.
4) Or maybe they don't NEED props but get a bonus for having one. Instrument users are pretty much always going to get it, and hands-free bards can use their prop and get the bonus or skip the prop and use a weapon.
Whatever the final fix is, it just wouldn't be fair for some bards to be able to wield weapons while performing and others not, without some little perk to make up for it.
Have masterwork musical instruments give +2 not only to Perform checks (and thus Countersong effectiveness) but also to the save DCs for the bardic powers that can be used with Perform (keyboard, percussion, wind, string) -- Fascinate, Suggestion, Dirge of Doom, Frightening Tune, Mass Suggestion, and Deadly Performance.
The thing is that you can't get a masterwork singing voice, but you can get a masterwork lute. Or even a magical harp!
He pretty much hit it on the head right here. If your character knows how to play musical instruments, he/she can use magical instruments that he discovers on his adventures (or creates). It's probably best to take an instrument-based Perform skill and a voice-based Perform skill and swap out your performances as necessary.
The thing is that you can't get a masterwork singing voice, but you can get a masterwork lute. Or even a magical harp!He pretty much hit it on the head right here. If your character knows how to play musical instruments, he/she can use magical instruments that he discovers on his adventures (or creates). It's probably best to take an instrument-based Perform skill and a voice-based Perform skill and swap out your performances as necessary.
or you wait until you next level up and sink skill points into the appropriate perform as i have seen happen....
I know that there are masterwork / magical instruments. But i don't think its unrealistic to lessen the penalty you get from using props/instruments - especially at lower levels when magical and masterwork items are few and far between
I want to throw my thoughts out. I might repeat some things:
And, of course, there are so many more options here. I can see this getting a huge treatment.
rather than think of instruments as a specific case lets look at the class again in terms of what benefits performance effects. and IMHO it comes down to props versus weapons. even a military leader/orator could have a benefit from a prop. wether its a ceremonial staff of office, swagger stick, flag or standard.
Yeah, I like that a lot. I feel like having a compulsory prop would really relegate the bard to a cohort/NPC class, but if they could choose to use a prop and gain meaningful bonuses for it, that would fit in both thematically and mechanically. Good call, Phlebas.