I must agree, I haven't had time for a completely thorough read and am curious what all the changes from Alpha 2 are, since many of them must be really easy to skip over when just skimming the material
Director of Games
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I would really like to help you guys out, but the changes were quite numerous and done over about a three week period, based off notes, conversations, and extensive lists pulled from these forums. If I want to keep the Beta rolling along, I am afraid that I just do not have the time to pull together this list.
My apologies to your thirsty ink cartridges.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
That's understandable, there is a lot of new content, I'll just have to pore over it when I get time :)
I love to have a list of changes made between release 2 and 3. It would save me printer Ink, only need to print pages with changes, and time so I don't have to reread every race and class and skill entry, and likely miss a minor change.
What do ya say Jason, pretty please.
Graywulfe
Not promising anything, but I'll see if I can throw together a list of changes. I believe someone did this last release, and while I don't know how to make a pdf, I'm sure I can throw together a text file or something.
A list of major changes would be helpful though. Maybe not every word changed but things like
added monk, bard ranger
eliminated save or die spells etc
Howsabout we use this thread to make our own list,
Say for instance have you noticed familiars no longer hurt you if they die, you just get a new one after a week and a little gp.
I was looking for that and I couldn't find it. Could you give me a page number, please and thank you.
And yay!
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So howsabout it, anyone else notice some little change from release 2 to release 3, I personally don't want to know the big things because I'll catch them on my own, but the little ones can go unnoticed. Let's make this thread useful since otherwise it'll die since Jason's allready said he won't do it.
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If you really have to print it out and you don't want to spend money on it, seems logical to me to bring it to a "professional" print store and just have them print it out. Get some nice bidding.. couldn't cost more then $8.
Well if you print it in color it will be significantly more than $8. In B&W maybe $8... but likely more bound.
Contributor
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I've only made it through the barbarian class description, but here's what I've got so far. I'm not including the one or two grammatical changes I've found...nor am I mentioning the obvious addition of character generation information.
- Omitted from Half-elves, pg 13: ", but they tend toward those favored by their elven relatives."
- Modified Halflings, pg 14: Halfling bonuses now Dex +2, Cha +2, Str -2 (vs. Dex +2, Int +2, Str -2)
- Modified Halflings, pg 14: Favored class is now Rogue or Bard (vs. Rogue or Wizard)
- Modified Humans, pg 14: "Humans gain an additional skill rank <b>at first level and one additional rank </b> whenever they gain a level."
- Barbarian, pg 15: Included weapon proficiencies, fast movement, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, damage reduction, and indomitable will from SRD version of class.
- Barbarian Rage Powers costs adjusted, pg 17: Animal Fury now costs 2 rage points (vs. 3); Clear Mind costs 6 (vs. 9); Increased Damage Reduction costs 4, 8, or 12 (vs. 6, 12, or 18); Elemental Rage costs 8 (vs. 12); Guarded Stance costs 2 (vs. 3); Intimidating Glare costs 4 (vs. 6); Knockback costs 4 (vs. 6); Low-light Vision costs 2 (vs. 3); Mighty Swing costs 8 (vs. 12); Moment of Clarity costs 4 (vs. 6); Night Sight costs 4 (vs. 6); Powerful Blow costs 4 (vs. 6); Quick Reflexes costs 4 (vs. 6); Renewed Vigor costs 6 (vs. 9); Rolling Dodge costs 2 (vs. 3); Roused Anger costs 4 (vs. 6); Strength Surge costs 2 (vs. 3); Surprise Accuracy costs 4 (vs. 6); Swift Foot costs 2, 4 or 6 (vs. 3, 6, or 9); Terrifying Howl costs 8 (vs. 12); Unexpected Strike costs 8 (vs. 12).
- Barbarian Rage Powers, pg 17-18: "(round down)" removed from any power description where a bonus is equal to 1/2 barbarian level.
- Barbarian Terrifying Howl rage power, pg 18: Intimidating Glare power replaces non-existent "Hunter's Cry" power as the prerequisite for Terryifying Howl.
- Barbarian Unexpected Strike, pg 18: "This ability is used as a swift action." is omitted from Alpha 3 description.
I printed Alpha 3 out last night on my old Lexmark 1185 (it was free), bought new ink cartridges to the tune of $45.00. Took it to the local FedEx/Kinko's for binding, which cost me $5.00, so I spent a total of $50.00 on it so far. I asked for an estimate for them to print it out for me. I was told it was .59 per page/side for full color. I did some quick math and it came out to over $95.00. It's cheaper for me to go buy ink for my printer and just do it that way.
I took mine to office depot.B&W comb binding, plastic clear frosted covers. And with tax it was $16.74. Wasn't to bad even B&W its clear and easy to see art isn't bad either still very easy to see and make out like watching a B&W TV. 16 bucks well spent if ya ask me
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Contributor
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are those really all the changes we've been able to find?
Those are all the changes I've been able to document, but that's only because I had to stop after getting through the Barbarian class last night. I'll get back to reviewing the changes after work, today.
And you're welcome. I began to notice that there was a pattern for the changes as I was typing them, but I think it's easier to reference specific changes than to give the general formula.
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I would really like to help you guys out, but the changes were quite numerous and done over about a three week period, based off notes, conversations, and extensive lists pulled from these forums. If I want to keep the Beta rolling along, I am afraid that I just do not have the time to pull together this list.
My apologies to your thirsty ink cartridges.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
You aren't maintaining a change document between versions? Even for your own reference? What about a reference document for everyone else in the office?
I understand this is an overwhelming task and you are very busy but I would think a list of changes would have been an organizational norm.
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You aren't maintaining a change document between versions? Even for your own reference? What about a reference document for everyone else in the office?
Why would anyone in the office need a reference document? He's the only one working on it and no one in the office is going to be using the rules to make product until next year... in which case the rules will be finalized.
Personally if I were doing this on my own, I won't waste time on unnecessary document creation either. If something needs to be changed or tweaked I'll just go do it. Making a list of changes takes time away from the several pages of content that needs to be introduced.
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I just realized that I was referencing the PDF document page numbers in my last post. If you're looking at the actual rules page numbers, subtract 3 from each of the page numbers above. Sorry for the confusion.
I think it has been brought up before, but THAT would be something great to fix - max the pdf's page numbers match the book's page numbers.
I don't know much about pdf publishing, but if you can't somehow start the pdf with a few non-counting pages, then just start numbering the table of contents in the actual book as page 4.
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Why would anyone in the office need a reference document?
Was that a serious question? Honestly?
He might be the only one working on the project but he certainly isn't the only one reviewing the material in the office. If he is, well then there are more problems than just the lack of documentation. I would think a document at least noting the changes would be helpful as someone else reviews the new version.
Documentation between versions of a product is never unnecessary. If, for whatever reason, Jason or anyone else needs to refer to how things were done previously a document with a simple note and page reference to the old document (presuming he is keeping the old docs) is efficient as it saves time. For the customer a simple reference document is nice to have to help you understand what changes have transpired without re-reading the entire text. No bells and whistles, just notes and page references. This documentation seems doubly important in this kind of playtest environment. It helps keep everyone on the same page.
In some ways, this is similar to patch notes for software updates. Its good to know what has changed, not only for the consumer for but others in the company not involved in the development of the end user product.
If the schedule is so tight he can't make a note of a change as he is making it then I would be inclined to think the schedule is unrealistic and the final product will suffer for it.
There was a change to the staff recharging procedure. You can now recharge with a spell that the staff unleashes or your highest.
HP Color & B&W ink cartridges: $35.00
Ream of paper: $5.00
Printing and binding at the office: Free
Having a full color copy of the Alpha 3 Pathfinder: Priceless!!!
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Was that a serious question? Honestly?
Why would anyone in the office need a reference document?
No, it was rhetorical actually.
He might be the only one working on the project but he certainly isn't the only one reviewing the material in the office. If he is, well then there are more problems than just the lack of documentation. I would think a document at least noting the changes would be helpful as someone else reviews the new version.
Right, a handful of people "edit" the document over the weekend before it's released 2-3 days later. During that 2-3 days, as far as I know, 2 people are working on turning plain text into the pretty PDF.
The people editing it, the people laying it out, don't need design notes.
Documentation between versions of a product is never unnecessary. If, for whatever reason, Jason or anyone else needs to refer to how things were done previously a document with a simple note and page reference to the old document (presuming he is keeping the old docs) is efficient as it saves time.
Or you open the older document, hit CTRL F and go right to the section. Or Jason has each section in it's own file and each version is actually a folder and opening the old version of skills is a matter of just opening Alpha2Skills.doc
For the customer a simple reference document is nice to have to help you understand what changes have transpired without re-reading the entire text. No bells and whistles, just notes and page references. This documentation seems doubly important in this kind of playtest environment. It helps keep everyone on the same page.
Customers? What customers? There are only playtesters here. They don't need to understand anything. Only find things that don't work or aren't clear enough as they play and post about them.
Notes and page reference take time to generate, particularly if Jason isn't involved with the actual layout of the PDF. What might be page 5 in MSWORD might be page 11 in the PDF.
In some ways, this is similar to patch notes for software updates. Its good to know what has changed, not only for the consumer for but others in the company not involved in the development of the end user product.
Commercial software usually has more then 1 person coding it. Commercial software has design teams whose members are coding different parts of it. Programmer A will probably never see Programmer Q's code. Design teams have work charts, assignments, etc. to help them organize their work efforts. There's also 1 guy not doing any of the actual work, he's managing. Someone whose actually job is to keep track of what's being worked on.
But then again this isn't software.
If the schedule is so tight he can't make a note of a change as he is making it then I would be inclined to think the schedule is unrealistic and the final product will suffer for it.
Oh I'm sure he could make notes if he WANTED to, but again, waste of time. Most of us would rather have the PDF on tuesdays or wednesdays instead of fridays. Beta comes out in August and will have a full year of playtesting before it gets finalized. That's when the serious playtesting will be happening. The point of each alpha builds is to give us a little more to play with in each release.
If you ask me, the fact that Jason makes fixes between Alphas now just makes things easier later.
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Contributor
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Update: I've made it through the Ranger class description. Thought I'd update what I've found so far.
- Added Bard class description, pg 15.
- Cleric Domain Powers, p 22: Added: "If you cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations."
- Fighter, pg 27: New Ability: "Bravery (Ex)" gained at 2nd level
- Fighter, pg 27: Armor Training now raises the Max Dex bonus, in addition to all other previous enhancements
- Fighter, pg 28: Javelin removed from the "thrown" weapons category. (This may be a typo...if shortspear is in there, javelin should be, too, I think.)
- Added Monk class description.
- Paladin, pg 31: Lay on Hands ability can now be used a number of times per day equal to 1/2 Paladin level + Cha bonus and heal one target by a number of hit points equal to her Paladin level (vs. healing a number of point equal to Paladin Level time Charisma bonus). Additionally, undead do not receive a saving throw when Lay on Hands is used to damage them.
- Paladin, pg 32: Channel Positive Energy can only be used 1+Cha bonus times per day (vs. 3+Cha bonus)
- Paladin, pg 32: Divine Bond (enhanced weapon) ability: Omitted reference in the first sentence to a celestial spirit that enhances the weapon. However, spirit is mentioned later in the description. Additionally, the ability no longer ends automatically if the weapon leaves the paladin's possession...instead it is suppressed until the weapon is returned to the paladin. The abilit can now be used more than once per day after the Paladin achieves 9th level.
- Paladin, pg 33: Remove Disease now costs 2 uses of Lay on Hands.
- Paladin, pg 33: Remove Curse, Neutralize Poison, Break Enchantment, and Heal abilities added. Each costs multiple uses of Lay on Hands.
- Paladin, pg 34: Omitted the limitation on multiclassing. A paladin may now choose to multiclass without forfeiting the ability to take future levels of Paladin.
- Added Ranger class description, pg 35-38.
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Contributor
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Update #2: Classes section review complete.
- Sorcerer Bloodlines , pg 42: Each Bloodline now grants a new class skill, as well as additional spells and bonus feats granted starting at 3rd and 7th levels.
- Sorcerer, pg 42: Sorcerers now receive Cantrips at will as spell-like abilities and receive Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at first level.
- Aberrant Bloodline, pg 42: Acidic Ray (vice Acidic Touch); Long Limbs, reach increases to 15 feet at 17th level.
- Abyssal Bloodline, pg 43: Claws ability reworded to become a two-claw attack, full-attack action.
- Celestial Bloodline, pg 43: Heavenly Fire ray attack (vice Heavenly Touch); Wings of Heaven duration changed from rounds to minutes (must be used in 1-minute increments).
- Destined Bloodline, pg 45: Touch of Destiny bonus is now equal to 1/2 caster level (vs whole caster level); It Was Meant to Be rules clarified (use after first roll, but before results revealed).
- Draconic Bloodline, pg 46: Claws ability reworded to become a two-claw attack, full-attack action; Breath Weapon Damage decreased to 1d6, but it is usable multiple times per day starting at 17th level; Wings can be manifested as a standard action and dismissed as a free action; Power of Wyrms ability no longer grants casting of form of the dragon III.
- Elemental Bloodline, pg 46: Elemental Ray (vice Elemental Touch); Elemental Blast now causes elemental vulnerability in enemies who fail their saves and can be used multiple times per day starting at 17th level; Elemental Body no longer grants casting of elemental body IV
- Fey Bloodline, pg 47: Laughing Touch replaced Fist of Thorns; Soul of the Fey ability now grants casting of shadow walk (vice tree stride).
- Infernal Bloodline, pg 47: Corrupting Touch now lasts multiple levels starting at 4th level and subsequent attacks on the same target reset the duration; Hellfire causes good creatures that fail their saves (vice those that are damaged) to become shaken and can be used multiple times per day starting at 17th level; On Dark Wings allows wings to be manifested and dispelled; Power of the Pit removes specific reference to the deeper darkness spell.
- Undead Bloodline, pg 48: Grasp of the Dead does 1d6 dmg per caster level (vice per 2 caster levels) and is usable 2 times per day at 17th level and 3 times at 20th level (vice max of 2 times at 13th level), range of 60 feet is now specified; Incorporeal form lasts for 1 round per caster level (vice 1 round per two caster levels)
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Contributor
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Update #3: Here're the changes I found in the Skills, Feats, and Combat sections:
Skills
- Acrobatics, pg 55: Base DCs now incorporate opponent's BAB.
- Heal, pg 59: clarifies treat deadly wounds description--Wisdom modifier applied only if positive.
Feats
- Improved Channeling, pg 67: Name changed from Improved Turning
- Arcane Armor Training (Combat), pg 68: Prerequisite is now Armor Proficiency (Light) (vs. Medium)
- Table 6-1 Combat Feats: Arcane Armor Training and Lightning Stance entries corrected
Combat
- Performing a combat maneuver, pg 77: Added to the end of the first paragraph: "If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat manuever against it."
- Feint, pg 79: References to "Deception" skill are changed back to Bluff and Sense Motive, where appropriate.
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Contributor
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Update #4 (Final): Okay, here's the last input. I probably missed something, but I did a complete side-by-side check of a 162-page PDF, so hopefully I caught the majority of the changes.
Having done this work (and knowing full well that there has already been some sniping about the issue) I would like to request that Jason and his cohorts produce a change document when the Beta edition is released. I discovered that there are a lot of nuance-level changes that some people will miss unless they are pointed out to them. (I'm fairly certain I would have missed them had I not gone about creating this list.)
It is entirely possible that just reading the updated document might not reveal the change. If they happen to skim over a section with a change in it, they may continue playing based on an old version of the rules.
That being said, here is my final input for the list of changes... (Oh, and you're welcome, lastknightleft. It was a good mental exercise for me.)
Spells and Magic
- Polymorph Subschool, pg 80: "Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume." added to first paragraph
- Polymorph Subschool, pg 80: "If a polymorph spell is cast by a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell." added to the end.
- Animal Domain, pg 86: Animal Form (Su) functions as beast shape III vice the ploymorph spell.
- Univarsalist School, pg 85: Hand of the Apprentice ability "can draw a weapon (including a magic weapon)"--magic weapons now allowed. (Still no mention of proficiencies or changes to weight limits.)
- Magic Domain, pg 91: Hand of the Acolyte ability "can draw a weapon (including a magic weapon)"--magic weapons now allowed; uses Wisdeom bonus (vice Intelligence)
- New Spells, pg 95-120: New spells: Destruction, Divine Power, Finger of Death, Implosion, Restoration, Greater Restoration, Righteous Might, Slay Living, Wail of the Banshee,
- Glitterdust, pg 107: -40 penalty on Stealth checks (vs. non-existent "Hide")
- Mage's Disjunction, pg 110-111: Area: "or one magic item (see text)"--"You can also use this spell to target a single item. The item
gets a Will save at a –5 penalty to avoid being permanently destroyed."
- Polymorph, pg 113: Changed name from Polymorph Other I
- Polymorph, Greater, pg 113: Changed name from Polymorph Other II
Running the Pathfinder RPG
- Added sections on Treasure and Monsters, pg 122-128
- Option 2: Complete Conversion, pg 129: Creatures with a natural flight ability no longer gain the Fly skill for free.
- Additional comment about Power Level, pg 129.
Entire Chapter on NPCs
Magic Items
- Staves, pg 138: When recharging a staff, caster must forego a spell slot of the highest level cast by the staff (vs. of the highest level he can cast). The corresponding levels in the example are also changed.
- New Wondrous Items, pg 139-142: Belt of Physical Might, Belt of Physical Perfection, Headband of Mental Prowess, Headband of Mental Superiority.
Glossary
- Poisons, pg 151-152: Changed damage to static values instead of dice rolls and removed or changed secondary damage on some poisons
- Damage Reduction, pg 153: This is a new section.
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I would really like to help you guys out, but the changes were quite numerous and done over about a three week period, based off notes, conversations, and extensive lists pulled from these forums. If I want to keep the Beta rolling along, I am afraid that I just do not have the time to pull together this list.
My apologies to your thirsty ink cartridges.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason,
It was a shot in the dark, I understand you are busy. Thanks anyway, keep up the good work.
Paris,
Thanks for the effort so that we can all enjoy all of Jason's fine work.
graywulfe
I would have missed alot of little things if not for this thread, especially among the changes to already released classes, the paladin in particular I hadn't realised there had been changes.
Thank you alot Paris, you're a hero.
Spells (pg 99-114): The spells Beast Shape I+, Elemental Body I+ and Plant Shape I+ have been removed from the druid spell list. The only polymorph spells that druids now get are Animal Shapes, Baleful Polymorph and Shapechange.
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Contributor
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Thanks for the feedback and additional changes, folks. Also, I need to correct myself on one issue.
The Universalist Wizard's Hand of the Apprentice ability does, in fact mention proficiencies. The only thing that wasn't added was mention of a weight limit, which leads me to believe that the limit remains the same as for the mage hand spell.