Paradisio's page

Thanks everyone and Mark, those are lovely, I'll be sure to make my own little charts from the book to help out with that :)

So I've been hoisted up to be the DM in about a week, which means I have a very busy week ahead of me especially since the players in the group do not want modules... but setting, well, that remains a bit more open.

I have enough time to put together something basic together for the first session and flush it out later....but how is the pathfinder setting? I have no exposure to it. If it's decent, what books are good to start me off DMing it?

And even so, are there any good resources for defining my own pathfinder setting? PDF available books only, don't have much time to wait for shipping :)

Appreciate any input!

Thanks, as for 5... do you think it would be prudent to only run modules I have played in? The thought came to mine after reading some other posts to avoid metagaming if I play them in the future.

Seems like my area is hard for DMs/GMs though... and although I'm new to pathfinder I do have a large background in other versions of D&D and RPGs.

So I'm getting involved in pathfinder and want to jump immediately into DMing. I've read through most of the pathfinder society materials at this point and have a grasp on what I need to bring to the game/buy... but what things outside of the required books/materials do people find helpful? I know that's vague, status cards, initiative trackers, certain books, apps (on android), etc?

Appreciate any help :)

I love to have a list of changes made between release 2 and 3. It would save me printer Ink, only need to print pages with changes, and time so I don't have to reread every race and class and skill entry, and likely miss a minor change.

What do ya say Jason, pretty please.

Graywulfe

Not promising anything, but I'll see if I can throw together a list of changes. I believe someone did this last release, and while I don't know how to make a pdf, I'm sure I can throw together a text file or something.

IIRC from the eaten post, Jason said the chart was correct.

While I am pleased to hear this, I am sure there are still some bugs to work out. I would love to hear about some samples using this system.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I agree, and I actually appreciate you putting some redundant stuff in there to reduce page flipping looking for racial modifiers and so on.

Well, instead of posting a variety of threads I thought I would go with the status quo and post my own playtest thread. This game is an online game in a private forum, so no link sorry (unless someone like Jason wants to see it), and It's mostly DM run anyways (I make all the rolls). I'm running the Shackled City Adventure Path (the Hardcover).

The group is a bit blind to most of the changes, I only told them the 1st level stuff and will try and gauge their reaction by the new levels. They'll be getting ample opportunities to tweak their characters though if they don't like something. They're only using the Pathfinder classes.

For players, they did 28 point buy. I took a vote and they decided to use the Racial HP modifier.

What I ended up with was:
Level 1 Half-Orc Cleric of Kord with Luck and Strength domains
Level 1 Human Fighter (Charger)
Level 1 Half-Elf Rogue
Level 1 Human Druid
Level 1 Human Fighter (Archer)
Level 1 Gnome Sorcerer with Destined Bloodline

Their first impressions were good. The fighter was a bit leery about the channel changes for some reason, thinking they might be overpowered, but he was reassured when they effected a whole area, and not just selective targets by default. Most agreed the previous turning/rebuke system was far too cumbersome. The cleric loved the changes, now that he didn't have to be a healbot.

The group really liked the racial changes, they finally felt like they could play other races and be on the same footing as humans, especially half-orcs who were unjustly punished for their lineage.

The group liked the HP changes and the favored class mechanic, anything that boosted the survivability at low levels with a bonus for them.

The group liked the skill consolidations, they only were iffy on the combination of Concentration into Spellcraft; and that was because concentration was now based off of Int. I gave a good argument for why managing magical energies would be better for smart people over tough ones and they agreed though. No one missed use rope. The only other gripe with skills was that diversification was harder with only a couple of point to start off with, but that was mostly from the low skill classes (2+). Regardless, they were fine after realizing after 1st level they were basically getting 4 points for 1 if they invested a new skill.

The group really liked the getting rid of Exp costs, as was I. It was something that never made sense to me as a DM and as a player. It seemed to penalize characters who wanted to be prepared and had already sunk their experience into crafting (by buying a bunch of feats).

I'll add more a bit later, since this is ongoing, sure I forgot some stuff as well...

I would like to see this test. I have done similar things with my group and found that the fights are harder but they equal out nicely and allow the players to feel more successful. I'm waiting for your results.

Will do then, I'm planning on posting some pretty large playtest posts, I think the changes to the CR system haven't been commented on much, I'm hoping I can give some good feedback on them.

Regardless, do you think I should upgrade their equipment to be equivalent to a level 4 npc?

I'll be testing this soon, I'm running the Shackled City AP which starts off with 3 level 2 NPCs vs the group of 6 level 1s + 1 NPC supporting. But to keep the games CR equal to the base games they'll now be level 4 NPCs, which is a pretty big jump. They also have toughness which got upgraded quite a bit, so they have pretty high ATK and HP, I ran a test scenario and it was about 50/50 with one of them vs the party's fighter, so I guess it's alright since they are outnumbered 2:1. I'm unsure If I should boost their equipment as well.

Okay, but if an NPC fighter is a CR 13 and a Beholder is CR 13, the system says they're supposed to be equal challenges to a party of four characters.

Something is wrong with the CR system if it says the two are equivalent and they're not.

If a CR 13 NPC is equivalent to a Beholder, and they pose an equal challenge to a party of 4, they should also pose an equal challenge to each other.

So, he is correct when he says a 13th level fighter SHOULD win against the CR 13 creature, because the game says the Fighter is CR 13 and therefore equivalent.

This seems actually addressed in pathfinder, a 13 level fighter would be CR 11, not 13 by Pathfinder rules.

Yea I told him that the +3 from class worked for it, but I would like to see this in the next edition and as far as I can see no one else has commented on it.

If the skill is a class skill for any of your classes, your 'ranks' count as total ranks +3 for the purpose of prestige classes, and thus, presumably for skills and skill tricks.

Currently, if you do not have the skill as a class skill for any of your classes, your ranks for the purpose of prestige classes (and presumably feats) is 1/2 your total ranks. This will change. But for right now, you can use it.

So, if your player were taking the skill as a cross-class skill, he could not take the feat (since he'd have 1 rank, and it would only act as 1 rank). If he takes a class skill, he can take the feat.

Presumably being the word, it doesn't say explicitly as far as I can tell. I'm just wondering if this was intentional or not.

I have a player wanting to take a feat that requires 4 ranks in a skill, under the default 3.5 rules he could take that feat at character creation, currently using the RAW for pathfinder, he can not. I think this should probably be added to the section on 'prestige skills' or somewhere in the feat section that the requirements for feats that require skills drops by three (minimum 1).

Hobgoblins do indeed get a boost to CR from race - a human warrior is *not* CR 1, while a hobgoblin warrior is. I can't possibly see how you're stacking 3 more hit dice on that and leaving it as CR 1.

CR 2, easily.

By my copy of the MM, it says CR: 1/2 for a hobgoblin warrior. Which is in line for a level 1 warrior.

Going off the pathfinder rules for CR, I would say Challenge Rating 1. The MM Hobgoblin doesn't get a bonus from it's race to CR as far as I can see, and it only has NPC classes levels. So 4 NPC levels - 3 = CR1. That seems about right to me. I don't imagine such character being much of a threat.

Doing Shackled City AP :P

I believe the enhancement bonus is specifically talking about the enhancement bonus, you can only have a +5 enhancement bonus before epic levels (IE not talking about addons/special effect), which would only be 15th level.

"So a +3 Shortsword can be made by a caster of at least level 9. But a +1 Icy Burst Shortsword can be made by a caster of level 6?

Do I have this right? And, if so, what's the reason for this distinction? Are the special abilities not as good as the base enhancement?"

That seems correct; it seems from my experience the enhancement bonus is typically favored by players over special effects; which typically aren't useful in every situation. A +5 to hit/damage is more useful than an extra d6 that will be frequently resisted completely.

I'm just wondering if anyone here has any input on how leaving and returning would impact the game.

They left in the brain room (after defeating it) to go back to town and rest, but I don't want the rest of the dungeon to be a cakewalk now. I decided to swap the BBEG for a psionic version to make things a bit more harder and/or interesting, but the only other encounter really left is the Advanced Octopin/Vrock.

So any input on creatively re-populating the first few segments that would make sense at this point?

Well, I'd be more than a little impressed if the same group managed to play through both. But I seriously doubt it will happen in a rather anonymous PBP game.

If your really on the fence then I would do them in order. There is another benefit as well. By the time your done with AoWs there are going to be tons of threads full of great ideas regarding STAP and you can incorporate these into your game. The experiences of dozens of DMs that have gone before you can be yours with a little patience. Thus allowing you to learn from their mistakes and imitate their success. Also STAP incorporates elements and nods from the other two adventure paths. The Wormfall Festival will seem that much more impactful to your players if it reminds the players (not the characters) of their epic victory over the Kyuss in AoWs.

Well, I'm going to start a new PBP game and I was wondering; in general what do people think is the better path? I've ran a bit of both offline and I like them both, so I really can't make a decision. Does anyone have any input either way? Thanks

Yes they got thedrick and everyone else in the hextor temple ;p

He put up quite a battle.

D) The group is arrested for breaking and entering (a private mine), and slaughtering innocents (the mine guards).

I mean really, to me it sounds like you need to instill within your group, the most basic rules of cause and effect, which is to say that if you flaunt the rules of society you'll lend yourself in trouble. Yes, the evil cult(s) in the min will react to the PC's actions, but keep in mind also the PC's do not (or should not) have a licence to kill whoever they please for no reason, and also remember that the mine owners are effectively the top dogs in town, with the law bent around their fingers. After all, without the mine owners, there would be no town of Diamond Lake.

Luckily, my group have always seen that they are not above the law, and have always been as discrete as possible in their dealings, despite me goading them with the law's intrusions at various points (questioning, paper work to fill in, turning up just as the problem is solved then locking down the crime scene, ...) - my group sees the law in various towns as useless except to get in the way, yet they still do not directly flaunt the laws or work against it; more they tend to work their way around it. I guess that's the way I set it up from the beginning too, where the first thing the PC's saw was a crime in progress, and of course the local law enforcement turned up when the PC's were "questioning" the criminals. Helped show the group that while I give them width to play with, they are still part of a wider universe.

The problem with that is, its basically game over if I arrest them. By the time their sentence is over, the temple will have been relocated because of people knowing their position and they won't be welcome in town.

Then I can't use encounter at blackwall keep because Allustran probably couldn't use them anymore.

Ok, so the group goes into the mine. Only taking the time to bribe the very first set of guards and letting everyone else see them run past and smash the barrier. So they kill the hextorites quickly (having half the temple bum rushing them at the beginning and half the temple getting cleaved to death.) And take their loot back up.

So I had them dump a cart load of ore as they approached the top (since they were moving very slowly and the cart was packed full of stuff.) So the party falls, nearly TPKing (I think they had it coming for being so blunt.) I figured he would assume them to be dead, so patches everything back up assuming they cleared out the temple or leaving them to deal with the remainders of the temple. But they just decide to climb back up, where the slaughter the 6 mine guards on shift and return to town to sell.

They return, eeriely quiet as they return to the temple.

So right now I have them either:
A.) Waiting in the temple
B.) Waiting in the mine to cut the rope and leave them stranded
C.) Balabar moves in to take over the mine since Dourstone is slipping up and now has to deal with Kullen and Gang + Filge who they didn't kill in WC.

Any other ideas? Thanks

Yes, I really played up the fact that how much treasure was originally found. The PCs haven't even hinted about leaving Diamond Lake, they want to find more treasure.

I think its also important to tell your players that this is a module, and honostly its kinda moot to run a module if the players run from plot hooks like spheres of annihilation. I think modules require just a tad of railroading to get them to work in a lot of groups; I had a lot of trouble running adventures with my group originally because they just wanted to run around. I showed them that something that had been pre-constructed would probably would be a little more enjoyable then ad-hocing everything.

I haven't played the module or read any of the entries, can someone give me some general information on it? I really like the AOWAP and would like to hear how it is in comparison.

Any help is appreciated. ;p

Because of catastrophic events in the later part of the module, I reccomend not allowing the players to purchase the mine. I don't want to spoil too much, so thats all I will say. Your likely to end up with some upset players.

Regardless, If they pay and treat their miners decently they will probably make very little money off the mine (or possibly lose money). Most of the mine managers don't have good alignments for a reason ;p I think the way the campaign sets up, Diamond Lake is pretty much unsalvageable, and the later events don't help.

Paradisio wrote:

That really isn't the point, such checks were never made or even brought up.

Try bringing them up to your DM next time you want your character to try and fake out his opponents by pretending to have (or not have) certain abilities. You may find the tactic to be more successful when you use the mechanic designed to implement it.

I still don't think it matters.

Wearing armor your not proficient with makes you a spellcaster?

Why couldn't I be a rogue or something?

The point is, I was being unfairly targetting by my DMs by regular NPCs who have no prior knowledge of my abilities (like the common level 1 bandit.) "Oh look at the guy in the back in fullplate, all bandits attack him first (make sure to coup de grace as well)! Here let me use my scroll of AMF!"

It was kinda like the guy who captured me putting a gag in my mouth because I had the warlock shatter, and I had never used it before... but he didn't do it to anyone else in the group.

That really isn't the point, such checks were never made or even brought up.

Paradisio wrote:

Because they are...? Every DM I know has metagamed NPCs, giving them insight and knowledge not possible (like the complete abilities of someone who just joined the game) and putting me at a huge disadvantage. Regardless of my attempts to hide my class(es) or abilities. The enemy always know I'm a weak spellcaster; regardless if I am in full plate, monks robes, or I've never cast a spell in the party/adventure/region thusfar.

Just a comment on that particular tactic - I see people trying that sort of thing a lot, but rarely with any ranks in Bluff or even Disguise. It might full the gullible, but someone with a decent Spot or Sense Motive is going to know you're putting on an act. Disguise self and hats of disguise don't really go all that far without Bluff or Disguise to back them up, at least not vs. foes with decent Sense Motive and Spot.

Russ

You get a sense motive vs a hat of disguise? Wha...? Where is this ruling?

Anyways, i'm not just talking about illusions. I'm talking about actual armor as well.

Sounds like you've had some crappy DMs and have become accustomed to thinking that DMs are "out to get" their players.

Because they are...? Every DM I know has metagamed NPCs, giving them insight and knowledge not possible (like the complete abilities of someone who just joined the game) and putting me at a huge disadvantage. Regardless of my attempts to hide my class(es) or abilities. The enemy always know I'm a weak spellcaster; regardless if I am in full plate, monks robes, or I've never cast a spell in the party/adventure/region thusfar. DM paladins are allowed to break the rules, murding innocent people and killing the helpless; but they will ban you of all your abilities if you even take a swig of ale or look at that lady of the evening the wrong way; point being, I think most DMs are out to get their players.

I try to take all my experience and make the game more fun for my players; and not go on a power trip.

Seriously, trying to stop min/maxxing is like asking someone if you can break their legs. Disallowing prestiege classes or allowing them to only be in one is basically a challenge. Also, most of the "broken" builds are only 2-3 class characters. So your either better off not allowing PRCs or you need to talk to the players directly about the issues of the "pissing contest" as I would put it.

Age of worms in particular requires player to have strong characters that know how to use the rules to their advantage.

I can remember several PRC which require you to be part of an organization; most of them are campagin specific. But classes like mage of the arcane order require you to be in an organization; but I don't have all my books with me.

Paradisio wrote:

Olmac wrote:

I solved the munchkin problem very simply.

I disallow 1 or 2 level dips into prestige classes. If my players want to have a prestige class, they have to complete all the levels in it, be it a 3, 5 or 10 level class.

I would quit that game; your better off just not allowing prestiege classes. There are too many situations where that rule becomes an issue, and most of them are in character issues. I don't think most prestiege classes are very good for "dipping" anyways, base classes provide more benefits.

Oh, I allow them. I think they are a great idea. But I do not see how one can say they are not good for "dipping" when you look at all the min/max and optimization boards and see all the cherry picked prestige classes in them. This thread alone shows that.

Now as for the prestige classes, I like to keep them just that, prestige. How can something be prestigous if they are getting cherry picked by every adventurer in the world. Almost everyone one of them is connected to some sort of organization. Why would those organizations allow someone come and train one level then leave it like they are chopped liver.

Or, maybe that is the DM roleplaying the fact the the organizations want truly dedicated members and will not allow themselves to be used by someone out for themselves. Heck, to further the roleplaying, why would not some of these evil prestige class organizations hunt down and kill everyone that leaves? Why would they let someone run around the world knowing their secrets?

I DM two different groups and play in third. Now what this mean is that I do not have time to sit around for hours optimizing the NPCs to combat the optimized players. Optimization creates an arms race essentially. The players come up a new one hit kill shot optimaized character and I have to spend time coming up with something equally as tough to make it challange for said character. Then what happens is the they come up with a new one to meet that challange...

So you would force a player to continue advancing in a class you no longer provide him benefits for or he no longer qualifies for?

Or a class that puts him in an organization that no longer exists or is different than in the context of the class?

Or he has a change of heart and the class is evil?

Point being, forcing players to stay in a class is basically railroading in a very severe form, and thats why I said I would quit a group with such a ruling.

I hate to break it to you, but not everyone tries to ruin their DM's game.

I've been in about 4 different D&D groups, every DM save one exploited every possible character weakness at every possible junction. Making me abandon prestiege classes because of how fundamentally he changed the organizations involved, or destroyed them entirely soon after I joined them.

My warlocks probably were never that great because magic items have always been few and far between for my characters. I played with one DM for 2 years; never found a single scroll, staff, or wand.

If I point buy I always use 32 points, anything below that makes some classes virtually useless (paladin and monk.) I like the 4d6 7 times idea though.

1. Gnome Cleric - Died on my introduction module (not technically age of worms, but we were working up to it.)
2. Halfling Monk - Eye feared him and he went into the brown mold.
3. Human Cleric - Fell during the elevator collapse. Even if he survived, the swarm would have finished him off. Having a negative reflex save = fatal at low levels.

I solved the munchkin problem very simply.

I disallow 1 or 2 level dips into prestige classes. If my players want to have a prestige class, they have to complete all the levels in it, be it a 3, 5 or 10 level class.

I would quit that game; your better off just not allowing prestiege classes. There are too many situations where that rule becomes an issue, and most of them are in character issues. I don't think most prestiege classes are very good for "dipping" anyways, base classes provide more benefits.

Joseph - No offense, but just looking at the sword makes me think you let them mix/maxx... That sword alone is epic level and at least a +11 (I have no idea what the stun enhancement is) not to mention being intelligent. I don't know if this was an item found in one of the modules or not, but it is extremely powerful.

I can't possibly see a warlock being powerful, no matter how much they min/maxx it. I've had several NPC and PC warlocks of varying level; they can't keep up to true arcane casters, and I'm a pretty hardcore min/maxxer.

A player can't just will such powerful weapons into being, and few people can craft things of that power.

Well my online group died, and some of my players (who were in the online campaign) and I wanted to continue playing. Although I wanted to restart, since the new players wouldn't know whats going on.

They hadn't met the ghost of the land family yet (in the first module.)

If anyone has any ideas for how to change the mobs/traps I would like to hear them, thanks :P