It is a known fact that :
"that he (the king) suffered from some disease beyond even the priesthoods of Sarenrae and Abadar’s skill to cure."
Nobody in the priesthood thought of casting a 0 level "Detect Poison" on the sick king?
I don't have the adventure in front of me yet, but I think this is a case of the 3.5 rules getting in the way of the plot.
I'm pretty sure that if the queen or someone else didn't want the king to recover, they could limit the visits of the castle priests and keep a close eye on what they were doing to the king.
In the George RR Martin books, song of ice and fire, poison is considered the weapon of women and cowards, but yet it still gets used. And if you have a person like the queen telling you what to do and what you can and cannot use on the king, it's probably best to obey regardless of what common sense tells you.
In a Purist for System Simulationist style, you might also give the king a saving throw to determine if he died or not.
With the Guide to Korvosa book and some time and effort this could be great fun to watch develop. I would love to read a campaign journal from a DM who tried this.
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It is a known fact that :
"that he (the king) suffered from some disease beyond even the priesthoods of Sarenrae and Abadar�s skill to cure."
** spoiler omitted **
Detect poison tells if someone is poisoned or if something is poisonous.
How long does the poisoned condition last? Is it the one minute period between the two saves, or longer?How hard would it be to fool a cantrip anyways? :)
I don't have the adventure in front of me yet, but I think this is a case of the 3.5 rules getting in the way of the plot.
I'm pretty sure that if the queen or someone else didn't want the king to recover, they could limit the visits of the castle priests and keep a close eye on what they were doing to the king.
In the George RR Martin books, song of ice and fire, poison is considered the weapon of women and cowards, but yet it still gets used. And if you have a person like the queen telling you what to do and what you can and cannot use on the king, it's probably best to obey regardless of what common sense tells you.
Definitely agree, The Song Fire and Ice series presents an excellent example courtly intrigue. If you need a rule based answer, maybe some custom spell based off of Mage's Aura and Nondetection?
It is a known fact that :
"that he (the king) suffered from some disease beyond even the priesthoods of Sarenrae and Abadar’s skill to cure."
** spoiler omitted **
Who's saying the priests even really tried to cure him? Just sayin. :-)
Who's saying the priests even really tried to cure him? Just sayin. :-)It is a known fact that :
"that he (the king) suffered from some disease beyond even the priesthoods of Sarenrae and Abadar’s skill to cure."
** spoiler omitted **
Agreed. 'Cause even if they somehow didn't realize that he was poisoned and not diseased, they still didn't cast one of the Restorations on him to keep him alive until they could figure how to permanently heal him.
Creative Director
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Agreed. 'Cause even if they somehow didn't realize that he was poisoned and not diseased, they still didn't cast one of the Restorations on him to keep him alive until they could figure how to permanently heal him.
A few things to keep in mind, and this includes some big spoilers to the adventure path's plot...
B: The poison used on the king was developed by the Red Mantis, Golarion's most feared and oldest assassin's guild, to mimic a disease. I could have gone into further detail, but basically the poison was designed with spells like remove disease and detect poison in mind, as a way to "cheat the system." Since the poison mimics disease, a spellcaster who doesn't really suspect the disease to be what it was would be totally fooled. As in this case.
C: The poison's damage did ability drain, not damage. Lesser restoration won't help the king; he needs restoration or better. And despite the fact that Korvosa's a big city, there just AREN'T a lot of clerics who can cast these spells floating around the city. Certainly not enough to catch up against the king's ability drain, and especially not with the queen doing everything diplomatic and bluffy in her power to keep those spells from being cast on the king in the first place. You might as well wonder why no one tried to raise him from the dead (in this case, again, the queen stepped in to make sure no one did, if you were wondering).
D: If the king didn't die, the adventure wouldn't start in the first place. Also, if he died from something more obvious (like an arrow to the head), the adventure would have to have changed dramatically, with people realizing he was assassinated far earlier.
Then of course you'd have to consider the dreaded self-inflicted arrow to the head suicide.
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Who's saying the priests even really tried to cure him? Just sayin. :-)And who's to say there wasn't a conspirator hiding in a secret priest-hole, casting Silent Dispel Magic every time a cure was cast?
One rule gets in the way of the plot; one rule restores the plot.
It's the Circle of Life!
As the queen employs people to work as 'servants' to help the priests that can counter spell it
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In a world where spies can scry and assassins can teleport every sensible monarch has nondetection cast on himself regularly.
Maybe to the point where the magic has suffused his being and low-level detect spells struggle to work against him when he is not warded by the spell (the same spell, four times a day for your entire life - that's got to change you...).
Many of the diseases in my homebrew campaign have spell resistance, to mimic antibiotic-resistant bacteria. No reason why a high-SR poison couldn't be introduced.
"that he (the king) suffered from some disease beyond even the priesthoods of Sarenrae and Abadar’s skill to cure."
** spoiler omitted **
I think I will develop a secondary plot line where one cleric wants to tell something "important" about the dead of the king to the players. Of course he will be no where to be found.
Then of course you'd have to consider the dreaded self-inflicted arrow to the head suicide.
"Worst suicide I've ever seen. He shot himself in the back of the head with a heavy crossbow. Twice. After beating the crap out of himself."
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Creative Director
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I think I will develop a secondary plot line where one cleric wants to tell something "important" about the dead of the king to the players. Of course he will be no where to be found.
"that he (the king) suffered from some disease beyond even the priesthoods of Sarenrae and Abadar’s skill to cure."
** spoiler omitted **
I'd still be wary about introducing this element, since the poison used IS designed to fool those who attempt to cure it. The Red Mantis have been around for hundreds of years, but they're also really secretive. Their techniques have only really started to surface in the world over the last hundred years or so.
If you DO want to introduce this element into the game, I suggest focusing on the fact that the poison used was extremely unusual, like "nothing the priest has ever seen," and that while it was a poison, it acted like a disease, which made it very difficult to cure and fix. This gets the word out to the PCs that there was poison involved, but more importantly, it helps to foreshadow the Red Mantis, who play an increasingly strong role in the campaign as it progresses.
Then of course you'd have to consider the dreaded self-inflicted arrow to the head suicide.
Hah! I've had honorable hobgoblins commit suicide via a crossbow to the temple rather than be captured and interrogated by the PCs!
If you DO want to introduce this element into the game, I suggest focusing on the fact that the poison used was extremely unusual, like "nothing the priest has ever seen," and that while it was a poison, it acted like a disease, which made it very difficult to cure and fix. This gets the word out to the PCs that there was poison involved, but more importantly, it helps to foreshadow the Red Mantis, who play an increasingly strong role in the campaign as it progresses.
I think it would work better as just part of the background noise of the chaos. This could be one of the things the angry crowds and firebrands are yelling about. It would be fun to have a true answer in there with the madness. ;)
In my games, detection-resistant poisons are rare and pricey, but exist. In a world with magical detection of such things, they seek ways to "spoof" the spells that detect them.
Another way to defeat such detection: Many medicinal compounds are potentially toxic, if given improperly. "Your spell is just detecting the medicine that eases His Majesty's discomfort. A true toxin would give a stronger reading. Compare the aura to that of the medicine's vial and you'll see."
Another way to defeat such detection: Many medicinal compounds are potentially toxic, if given improperly. "Your spell is just detecting the medicine that eases His Majesty's discomfort. A true toxin would give a stronger reading. Compare the aura to that of the medicine's vial and you'll see."
I'm not sure that squares with Detect Poison. The write up says that it detects if a person is poisoned or is poisonous. I don't think having a degree of medicine below the toxic level in one's system is not being poisoned or being poisonous.
Why not just rewrite the plot so the king died of old age? (Make the king & queen a fantasy analogue of gold-digging Anna Nicole Smith/J. Howard Marshall style marriages, if need be)
I'm pretty sure that incriminating evidence the PCs are meant to discover in a later module is supposed to both further vilify the queen and drive on an important plot development, i.e. the uncovering of a vast and potentially cataclysmic conspiracy involving the Red Mantis assassins, the Gray Maidens, the Plague Doctors, and quite possibly even the "incompetent" churches of Sarenrae and Abadar.
I'm not sure that squares with detect poison. The write up says that it detects if a person is poisoned or is poisonous. I don't think having a degree of medicine below the toxic level in one's system is not being poisoned or being poisonous.
Your interpretation certainly has merit, but I'm suggesting that a grey area could be introduced. In a world where guilds of assassins have existed for hundreds of years, subtle poisons could have reached a startling level of sophistication.
What happens when the sufferer starts taking his medication in slight overdoses, trying to alleviate pain beyond what it is designed to handle? The line between medicine and poison could easily be crossed.
What about medicines with harmful side effects: Wouldn't those flag as poisons? Wouldn't a vial of potentially-harmful medicine flag as toxic? After all, it could kill somone who foolishly drank too much.
Another option for "spoofing" detect poison would be multi-part toxins: Each agent might be individually harmless, only growing harmful after it was ingested.
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Creative Director
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Why not just rewrite the plot so the king died of old age? (Make the king & queen a fantasy analogue of gold-digging Anna Nicole Smith/J. Howard Marshall style marriages, if need be)
Because that takes away the fact that the queen is evil enough to have killed the king, and there's some pretty important plot elements in the last adventure that hinge on the fact that she was using this rare, potent poison to do the job.
I'm not sure that squares with detect poison. The write up says that it detects if a person is poisoned or is poisonous. I don't think having a degree of medicine below the toxic level in one's system is not being poisoned or being poisonous.Your interpretation certainly has merit, but I'm suggesting that a grey area could be introduced. In a world where guilds of assassins have existed for hundreds of years, subtle poisons could have reached a startling level of sophistication.
What happens when the sufferer starts taking his medication in slight overdoses, trying to alleviate pain beyond what it is designed to handle? The line between medicine and poison could easily be crossed.
What about medicines with harmful side effects: Wouldn't those flag as poisons? Wouldn't a vial of potentially-harmful medicine flag as toxic? After all, it could kill somone who foolishly drank too much.
Another option for "spoofing" detect poison would be multi-part toxins: Each agent might be individually harmless, only growing harmful after it was ingested.
Dude, it's magic. It detects when someone is poisoned. If they were poisoned by a multi agent poison, they are still poisoned.
James pointed out that the poison has special qualities that may have interfered with detection and have plot significance later in the AP. I can live with that. I'm a little surprised that ninth level clerics are that rare in Korvosa, but I can live with that, too, for plot reasons.
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James pointed out that the poison has special qualities that may have interfered with detection and have plot significance later in the AP. I can live with that. I'm a little surprised that ninth level clerics are that rare in Korvosa, but I can live with that, too, for plot reasons.
They have mentioned that there are only a few clerics in the entire setting that are of high enough level to raise a dead PC if I remember correctly.
They have mentioned that there are only a few clerics in the entire setting that are of high enough level to raise a dead PC if I remember correctly.
James pointed out that the poison has special qualities that may have interfered with detection and have plot significance later in the AP. I can live with that. I'm a little surprised that ninth level clerics are that rare in Korvosa, but I can live with that, too, for plot reasons.
They did, but then they said that the ones that could would probably be in Magnimar or Korvosa.
After reading a few of the threads pertaining to this AP, I've decided I'll have to wait for a few more of the modules to come out before I approve the characters my players are setting up for it. Three of the four (Paladin, Cleric, Monk) are directly tied to "good" churches (ok, Irori(sp?) probably doesn't fit that label), and I'd hate to find out after starting that one of them was somehow involved in a way that the PC might have been able to detect.
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Just have the poison provoke a death attack (save or die and raise dead won't work).
When a king dies - do you think that anyone can approach and just start casting spells. Unless you are high-born there is no way on Golarian that you'll be let near the corpse.
The queen, if she's any good will have only people that she owns and are loyal to her anywhere near the body.
Before playing any of these take some time (yes some of these books are lengthy) and read:
A Game of Thrones by George R.R. Martin
Rules of Ascension by David B. Coe
and see what power a noble should have. Unless you have a noble background you are far beneath any of these people. The Queen is a monarch, she answers to no one, and dissenters would and should be summarily executed.
Later
I don't fully understand all of these threads that I've read that talk about the difficulty of "keeping" the King dead and his murder a mystery.
The most powerful leaders of the churches in Korvosa arrive in the main throne room at the request of the Queen. She notifies them that the King has died, and she is now the sole reigning heir.
If any of these Clerics were brazen enough on their own to request an autopsy the Queen simply informs them that the King's final wishes were explicit in their meaning to avoid any kind of magical or mundane interference with his remains upon his passing.
The Queen, tearfully, notifies the assembled clergy that she would like her husband's final wishes respected to the fullest degree and bids them all a good day.
Who would doubt her? Who would care enough to try to circumvent this relatively benign characterization of the situation? They knew he was sick.
Your players may suspect whatever they wish, but if your players make their characters act upon those suspicions you may want to remind them that there's a modicum of roleplaying required here, not just rollplaying.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I don't fully understand all of these threads that I've read that talk about the difficulty of "keeping" the King dead and his murder a mystery.
The most powerful leaders of the churches in Korvosa arrive in the main throne room at the request of the Queen. She notifies them that the King has died, and she is now the sole reigning heir.
If any of these Clerics were brazen enough on their own to request an autopsy the Queen simply informs them that the King's final wishes were explicit in their meaning to avoid any kind of magical or mundane interference with his remains upon his passing.
The Queen, tearfully, notifies the assembled clergy that she would like her husband's final wishes respected to the fullest degree and bids them all a good day.
Who would doubt her? Who would care enough to try to circumvent this relatively benign characterization of the situation? They knew he was sick.
Your players may suspect whatever they wish, but if your players make their characters act upon those suspicions you may want to remind them that there's a modicum of roleplaying required here, not just rollplaying.
Agree with all of this posting except for the last paragraph. The players may have their suspicions. They may even act on them - if they like a stay in the dungeons. Besides, before they have a shot at this on their own, the king is probably solidly past Raise Deads horizon, since i can't imagine him receiving any gentle repose spells. Resurrection might still work, but this would make it one of the last acts in the planed adventure path anyway.
Agreed. 'Cause even if they somehow didn't realize that he was poisoned and not diseased, they still didn't cast one of the Restorations on him to keep him alive until they could figure how to permanently heal him.A few things to keep in mind, and this includes some big spoilers to the adventure path's plot...
** spoiler omitted **
Just a thought but what if the king wasn't the only one effected and the ailment developed when any suitably powerful clerics were not present or kept unavailable without a link to the queen?
It wouldn't be hard to have the king be given daily doses of womething that would suppress or counteract any magic say by means of a ring with it exposing him to something that would NOT radiate as either magic NOR poison as it would actually be beneficial IF the subject was under threat of being assassinated by magical means however because the assassin is aware of this "protection" what if an overdose was provided that would result in the king's death but leave no trace as the only people who know of this particular method are either dead, in the queen's confidence or unable to be contacted perhaps the PCs are sent to get advice believing it to be some kind of poison or disease and the adventure starts with them trying to protect their contact as the assassins are targetting him without them being aware of the true situation...
Many thanks for this this is going to well worth sorting out!
Take care and all the best!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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In some monarchies, the king's physician was a highly sought after position and granted one exclusive rights to treat the king. Suspicion of treason prevented anyone but the most trusted of family members from having anything to do with the king's medical staff and the physician would enter and exit in secret to avoid the spread of rumours.
I haven't picked up PF#7 but that is how I might sell it.
After reading a few of the threads pertaining to this AP, I've decided I'll have to wait for a few more of the modules to come out before I approve the characters my players are setting up for it.
There is no problem playing the adventure with good characters. The whole event described is outside the PCs comprehension at this point.
There is no problem playing the adventure with good characters. The whole event described is outside the PCs comprehension at this point.After reading a few of the threads pertaining to this AP, I've decided I'll have to wait for a few more of the modules to come out before I approve the characters my players are setting up for it.
It's not the fact that they are "good" that I'm concerned about. But if one of the churches they chose plays an important role, I want to know that before starting. Fortunately, none of them chose Abadar... the Paladin player in particular thought creating a Paladin of a church concerned with wealth would have been some sort of paradox, despite the fact that it seems to be the most important church in the city. :) I ended up modifying one of the deities for him... I removed Sun from Iomedae and added Protection. Sun doesn't make sense to me for Iomedae anyhow, but all I have to go on is the one line description. <shrug> She overlaps Torag too much now, but oh well.