You know, I really do like these boards. The only boards that I appreciate as much are Candlekeep's boards. There are some great posters here, and even when I don't agree with someone, things stay pretty civil, people do a really good job of actually supporting their points, and most people tend to pull together pretty well and keep in mind that they like Paizo more than they want to argue with people on the internet.
I'm not a big fan of 4th edition. In fact, it would take an act of God to get me to do a turn around on this thing now, knowing what I know. But I've tried to be careful not to say that I know this will fail, or that no fans will like it, or that it would have been best to cater to older fans. All I can really say is that the changes don't do anything for me, and in fact, I've no compelling reason to change to this edition.
So, now that I've set that up, there are some factors regarding the old forums lately that are making it really hard to contribute in a meaningful manner. There are basically three thorns that are a bit sticky for me lately.
Thorn #1 are the handful of posters that are "on my side," but they don't stop and stating what they don't like about 4th edition, they don't stop at saying they aren't planning on buying it. They have to go the extra mile and say that WOTC is intentionally putting out crap, that they have never put out good products, and that ever since they bought TSR, they have been engaged in a grand conspiracy to "force" us to buy crap and then sit back and laugh at us. I'm not happy with WOTC right now, and there have been some products I had little use for, or that I thought could have been a lot better . . . but if I didn't like any of their work, why did I buy everything I did? And furthermore, when you have hyperbole machines going full steam "on your side," it makes it hard for people to cut through all of that to see the actual good points made by some of the anti 4th edition types.
Thorn #2 is a particular poster that, while I respect his opinions, and have agreed with from time to time, seems to have to jump into every single 4th edition thread just to mock the people that abandoned his beloved 2nd edition. According to him, we "deserve" being unhappy with 4th edition because we adopted 3rd edition, which was clearly "wrong" to the core. He makes good points from time to time, but the constant "see I told you so" comments makes quite a few threads a lot more contentious than they need to be, especially when he goes out of his way to invalidate people's opinions with no other rationale than to say that they changed things in the edition he liked.
Thorn #3 is the 4th edition supporter that doesn't really want to debate anything. He wants to answer every single 4th edition thread, and when people show a preference to the way things used to be presented, he tries to dismiss any personal preference by saying that those that have a personal preference don't realize that D&D is a game, and that such people with preferences are lost in a fantasy world and can't deal with reality. Our petty concerns are beneath him . . . or at least they are far enough beneath him that he can dismiss them, but not far enough that he doesn't feel obligated to pop in and respond to remind us that they are beneath him.
Seriously, I want to hear everyone's opinion on this thing, and I realize I'm not always going to agree with people, and from time to time, I'm going to loose it and say something dumb. I'm sorry for that, but I really, really, am getting tired of every thread on 4th edition going like this:
Thorn #1: X bit of information about 4th edition just proves that WOTC sucks. Its more of the horrible crap they have been selling for years, and its obvious they have no talent and only care about money, and they are intentionally making D&D into horrid crap, and trying to force us to buy it.
Thorn #2: I don't know why you care about X. They change Y from 2nd edition and you still bought 3rd. If you sucked up that change, you should just suck up this one too. I really hope they scrap everything that anyone liked in 3rd edition because you all deserve to know how I felt when Y was altered.
Thorn #3: I'm amazed that anyone cares about X. If you don't like it, you can ignore it, but if you are emotionally connected to any of this, then you obviously can't distinguish reality from fantasy. Its clear that the designers are make a great game, and if you realized it was a game, then you would realize that things can change at any time if it is even remotely good for game design. In fact, I like X, but if they change X next week without any explanation, I'd be fine with that, because a devotion to continuity is the sign of a diseased mind.
After all of those posts, the pro 4th edition people are talking to Thorn #1, the anti 4th edition guys are talking to Thorn #3, and everybody that liked anything about 3rd edition is on edge because of Thorn #2.
Seriously, you guys are great, and at times you have all made some good points, and you should make your opinions known . . . but take a look at some of your posts and just, I don't know, take a breath, think about if you are "auto responding," and then move on.
Yeah, I know I need to do that Heathy. I've done that a few times before, when I was pretty sure that I was the one that was starting to get into the knee jerk auto response mode, and I really didn't want to become one of those guys that make you roll your eyes when he posts.
I probably should ratchet back again.
Everybody else, thanks for posting. I was hoping it wasn't just me getting overly sensitive. I mean I might be, but at least I know I'm not completely off base.
Despite my desire to learn more about 4E so as to make an educated decision and to do so without frequenting WOTC, I quickly realized that reading the 4E threads here was a recipe for mental pain and frustration. So I stopped. Since then I have felt mostly better. The only time that frustration rears it's ugly head is when a thread isn't obviously about 4E and I get sucked in for a minute until I realize it is.
Personally I have liked only about 10% of what I have seen about 4E. I have been ambivalent regarding about 40% and I have disliked about 50%. That makes it unlikely I will choose to purchase, or at least to purchase much. That said, I agree with the OP that we don't need to hear the same 'auto responses' over and over again.
In the end while I wish the good information and productive discussion would come to the surface and the remainder would fall away, I realize this is not likely to happen. Because of this I find myself seeking other topics that I remain interested in because I enjoy this community and respect many of the posters in it.
I'm not a big fan of 4th edition. In fact, it would take an act of God to get me to do a turn around on this thing now....
Well, I'll try my best. :)
Wait you post in the 4th edition threads!?! Why would a nice guy like you do something like that? That's like posting in the "Please Kick Me in the Nuts" Forums. Just stop - All the sane people have. Really what does it accomplish? I mean you read a blog about what some designer is doing and either drool or froth about it. The guy next to you says it's brilliant/crap the likes of which he has never seen before. You argue with him about it. Sure you may have the inside track on the real dope, but come on a lot of that could change or have an "and/or" clause added that you don't know about yet. So why bother until it's in print form. Really how many novels could you have written set in the Forgotten Realms for the amount of verbage wasted on such boards just making yourself angry. You can't save people who don't want to be saved and life is for living not arguing about things that are mostly outside of your control. If you are dead set against 4.0 invent 5.5 and get on with it.
Excuse me I just got a ping from another thread - someone needs to be kicked in the nuts - AGAIN!
Where are my Doc Martins?
;)
GGG
PS Good luck battling your addiction.
Excuse me I just got a ping from another thread - someone needs to be kicked in the nuts - AGAIN!
Where are my Doc Martins?
;)
GGGPS Good luck battling your addiction.
Heh . . . thanks GGG . . . that brought me a bit of Christmas cheer.
Yeah, I know I need to do that Heathy. I've done that a few times before, when I was pretty sure that I was the one that was starting to get into the knee jerk auto response mode, and I really didn't want to become one of those guys that make you roll your eyes when he posts.
I probably should ratchet back again.
Everybody else, thanks for posting. I was hoping it wasn't just me getting overly sensitive. I mean I might be, but at least I know I'm not completely off base.
Nope, you aren't, and I've recently come to the same conclusion. It is unfortunate, but if a thread involves 4th edition, it is usually best to just keep on going. Kinda like a fender bender on the freeway; move along, nothing to see here. :)
Let me guess
#1: Razz
#2: DangerDwarf
#3: CrossWiredMind
Do I get a prize?
I prefer not to get into specific names, but you may indeed be onto something.
Prize is yours.
To be fair, the prize is a virtual miniature of an invisible stalker, so hey, you can both have one!
Truth be told. Several of us probably do need to take a break from being poo flinging monkeys.
But if it doesn't get flung, it all just starts to pile up . . .
I hope you don't take what I said too harshly. While I do honestly get a bit tired of the same general comments over and over again, I do respect your opinion. Heck, its probably a function of the fact that I spend to much time on these boards that your comments are burned into my retinas.
|
Truth be told. Several of us probably do need to take a break from being poo flinging monkeys.
But if it doesn't get flung, it all just starts to pile up . . .
I hope you don't take what I said too harshly. While I do honestly get a bit tired of the same general comments over and over again, I do respect your opinion. Heck, its probably a function of the fact that I spend to much time on these boards that your comments are burned into my retinas.
Believe me, I don't take your comments too harsh at all. Plus, thanks to the nifty new miniature, we're cool.
|
|
Despite my desire to learn more about 4E so as to make an educated decision and to do so without frequenting WOTC, I quickly realized that reading the 4E threads here was a recipe for mental pain and frustration. So I stopped. Since then I have felt mostly better. The only time that frustration rears it's ugly head is when a thread isn't obviously about 4E and I get sucked in for a minute until I realize it is.
Personally I have liked only about 10% of what I have seen about 4E. I have been ambivalent regarding about 40% and I have disliked about 50%. That makes it unlikely I will choose to purchase, or at least to purchase much. That said, I agree with the OP that we don't need to hear the same 'auto responses' over and over again.
In the end while I wish the good information and productive discussion would come to the surface and the remainder would fall away, I realize this is not likely to happen. Because of this I find myself seeking other topics that I remain interested in because I enjoy this community and respect many of the posters in it.
I agree here. Now that it's been mentioned, I also noticed some of this "Reflexive Posting" in the 4E threads and thought about joining in, but more sensible threads like this one deserve our attentions more. My personal attitude is to just wait and see, and let those arguing it out in the 4E threads work it out amongst themselves. Good to see I'm not alone in looking for a sensible discussion of the new edition.
I think Lennon/McCartney said it best "Let It Be". I now shall fade-out of 4e threads and I shall retire Benard the 4e Troll. Although it was fun making fun of 4e, All of it makes my head hurt. So perhaps we should all just sit back and watch the show as observer's and say nothing, because you may well... end up buying/playing 4e...
I'm just glad I'm not one of those thorns. Then again, I've always stuck away from the 4.0 threads.
I think a lot of us have gotten carried away. And in some cases, its not just that we are posting pointless stuff, its that (and I'm really guilty of this myself) we've already made the points we post over and over again, and even if they are well reasoned, brilliant points (okay, that's pushing it), we've already made our opinion know 20 times.
Sometimes I think its a desperate hope that someone will validate us, will understand out particular brand of disgruntledness, and pat us on the back for saying it. Its funny, because you can have people that agree with you that find your opinion valid, but obvious, so they don't post, and you have people that you know disagree with you, who aren't likely to pat you on the back, ignore your point to make your own.
"The sky is blue."
"You know, I've noticed, the clouds tend to be white."
"Perhaps you've missed my point, the sky is, indeed, blue."
"That's not what I'm talking about right now."
"That SOB won't even acknowledge that I'm right about the sky being blue!"
I think the impetus for another round of the same posts (and I know I'm very much guilty of this one as well), its some new tidbit about the game, which in the grand scheme of things ends up not really expanding what we know much, but serves as an excuse for load up again.
I know one of the things that prompted my original post was someone feeling the need to start a new thread complaining about something we've all known for a couple of months now, that I'm almost certain he's posted about before, but because WOTC has a new article further elaborating on what we already new, "boom" lets pretend we didn't know this months ago and start the indignant machine up again.
And also, I apologize if my own repetitious pattern of posting caused anyone else any stress. I didn't mean to imply in my first post that I was above being someone else's thorn. I'm sure I have been. I just took seeing the stuff that annoyed me to see the patterns that were playing out over and over again.
So again, I'm sorry if I beat the dead horse too much around here myself, and I've not set myself above such reprimands.
|
|
UGH! I'm not even reading this 4e tripe anymore.
Have fun.
Sweet. I plan on making up completely absurd quotes by you (no one will bother to scroll through the pages to see if it really was something you posted or even if you did post) and you won't even be able to correct me!
Mwuhahahahahahahahah!
Now, I must practice!
When rubbing the 3e PHB on my chafed nipples quit providing me with the pain relief I still needed, I realized it was time for a new edition. I'm not going to run straight 4e though, I'm envisioning more of a 4e/Rifts/Toon hybrid with 42 1/2 subraces of gnomes who worship Captain James T. Kirk. I think I'll call it, 4-Evah! because that is how long I will play it.
That's just fun stuff right there, I don't care who you are.
;P
|
I was just thinking about my personal behavior in the 4e threads and realized I was....lacking in social graces.
I agree, no matter how I feel about the new game, it does nothing to belabor points and beat dead horses. It never helps to go out of my way to insult someone.
I seem to be given over to strong emotional responses. I know this and I need to be more judicious in my choice of words.
This thread has made me re-think my behavior and I will take a break from the 4e threads here and elsewhere as well.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I likely don't post as tactfully as I think I do, nor do I come across as netural as I hope. I too will refrain, for at least a few days.
Forgot to mention, DD, despite your love of the clunky 2e system ;-) you do come across as pretty laid back at times.
Disclaimer: I loved the 2e bard, most broken thing ever.
|
|
Forgot to mention, DD, despite your love of the clunky 2e system ;-) you do come across as pretty laid back at times.
I must take a moment to instruct you on the proper usage of the #e descriptor when speaking of editions.
3e = acceptable
4e = acceptable
Any further editions (5e, 6e, 7e, etc) all acceptable.
However, it is unacceptable to taint earlier editions with this new fangled wannabe hip "e" lingo. You must spell out 2nd Edition, or 1st Edition, etc.
Such is the law.
Damn...I prolly just ruined that "pretty laid back at times" comment huh?
;D
I knew there was a reason I avoided the 4e threads. Well, that and not having any interest in the game (outside of the professional level of interest needed to retain my job).
I'm curious, how does that work, exactly? I would have thought that a game editor would have to be into the game.
|
Contributor
|
I knew there was a reason I avoided the 4e threads. Well, that and not having any interest in the game (outside of the professional level of interest needed to retain my job).I'm curious, how does that work, exactly? I would have thought that a game editor would have to be into the game.
I'm totally into 3e. I'm sure I can be sold on 4e if I ever actually get to see it... ;)
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
Yeah, to be perfectly honest, the reason I haven't been posting as regularly here on the boards lately is that 99% of all the discussion that's going on here falls into one of the following categories:
1.) 4E discussion/speculation
2.) Complaints about refunds or missing/delayed orders
3.) Random nonsense
4.) RPG Superstar
Gone are the days where people start threads about character builds or discuss how they want to set up a fight with a BBEG. No one asks about "can X spell do Y thing under Z circumstances" anymore. No one theorizes about magical items, hypothetical combat situations, or any of the other juicy gaming talk that I jump for joy over.
Therefore, I have been lurking and waiting for something to change... and keeping up with the RPG Superstar stuff and my PbP games (mostly).
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
Start one up. I'll jump in.
Heh. The thing is, I'm not currently running or playing in any D&D games right now (other than PbP) so I don't have a whole lot of discussion to start. I'm always willing to put my 2 cents in on someone else's situation, though.
I'm also fairly certain that people don't want to hear me talking about my WoD games all day long either, but those are the only games I'm currently involved with.