Running Away

Short of using the full-blown chase scene rules from GMG, do you guys use any special rules to handle running away?

Sure, you move, they move, you move, they move. Hehehehe. No, I honestly do not use any special rules. It rarely occurs and when it does I just freeform it. Who is faster, who has better con, make checks, make an attack every now and then if you are faster.

- Gauss

Yeah I was thinking of something like opposed dex to get a lead.

Of course it can become moot with teleporting monsters. That is why demons and devils cause so much difficulty.

Yeah I was thinking of something like opposed dex to get a lead.

Well that's what your landspeed is for, and runspeed. Wearing heavy armor slows you down alot in those circumstances.

Usually it's easy. If someone has a 30 ft speed and chases someone with 20 ft speed or so, then unless they have a mile headstart they'll eventually catch him.
If the other guy has 40 ft speed though, then he'll eventually get away.

As I said runspeed is also important as some can use x4 others only x3 etc.

If that doesn't lead to a solution, because they got the same speed or so, it's more a matter of Con who lasts longer.

I've been wanting to post this for awhile but couldn't think of the right wording to make my question clear. I decided to get the ball rolling anyway and see if a conversation starts. Maybe someone else will be able to articulate what I want to say better then I can right now.

The reason I'm interested is because I want to run a sandbox campaign where PC's might easily bite off more then they can chew (even on a random encounter) so I want to make sure running away is viable.

Things I'm worried about:

1. If no man is left behind, the party is only as fast as the slowest member.
2. Withdraw leaves you in range of a charge still? Or did that change from 3.5
3. Run provokes, and an opponent with the same speed can just run up to an adjacent square so that you provoke again when you leave it. Rinse and repeat.

Do you guys find that running away is a valid tactic if you're outmatched, or does it result in TPK's?

Running away is not really a viable option unless you have a means to slow the enemy down.

1) Correct.
2) Correct
3) Part 1 Correct, part 2 Im not sure. With part 2 I would run it that if the bad guy is also running he is in no position to make attacks of opportunity due to loss of dex. Most other loss of dex conditions prevent you from threatning etc. Perhaps it isnt RAW, Im not sure here (it really hasn't come up for me before) but it seems reasonable.

Note: for those creatures with the Run feat (allowed to keep dex bonus) they would get an AoO using my version.

- Gauss

Edit: Just a reminder, people cannot run through difficult terrain or when they cannot see properly. This has benefit for both players and NPCs (players should use this to advantage whenever possible).

Just had a thought:

Assuming both PC and NPC have the same speed and run speeds (call it 30feet x4run):

PC is trying to run away from NPC.
PC moves away from NPC (provokes an AoO) and readies an action 'when NPC makes his attack, I move away'.
Since the PC's action goes before the attack (and forces the attack to be wasted) the following happens:

NPC moves (or charges) and declares attack.
PC moves.
NPC gets an AoO.
PC gets move distance.
NPC is stuck with attacking nothing (or another PC within reach).

PC is now 30feet ahead of NPC and ahead in the intiative count. Run until one of you drop.

The PC has suffered 2 Attacks of Opportunity, one of which would have been a regular attack anyhow.

- Gauss

Fantastic idea about readying the move, once I got my head around it, it really makes sense. Unfortunately, in the eyes of the PC's it will seem too fiddly and uncertain I predict they will end up just fighting to the death like they do now.

There's something about players that makes them do anything to avoid AoO's I find.

Running away is not really a viable option unless you have a means to slow the enemy down.

Exactly what I was afraid of.

If I was on the other side of the screen I would be big on caltrops and potions of expeditious retreat, etc, but I don't want players to have to suffer casualties in my game while they learn this lesson.

Then your PCs will die. Sorry. :)

However, there are the other options I mentioned. A 1st level cleric/wizard spell is a get out of jail free card in this case. Obscuring Mist.

I move away and ready an action. As soon as the BBEG is 20feet away I cast obscuring mist. Everyone else? RUN NOW.

BBEG @ 20feet suddenly loses sight of his target and he is at 1/2 movement.

Next round: caster closes his eyes and makes an acrobatics DC10 check (better have a decent acrobatics number) to move normal speed. He gets out of the obscuring mist and moves at best speed out of there.

Meanwhile BBEG is semi-blind and trying to find the PCs.

- Gauss

Gauss wrote:

Running away is not really a viable option unless you have a means to slow the enemy down.

Exactly what I was afraid of.

If I was on the other side of the screen I would be big on caltrops and potions of expeditious retreat, etc, but I don't want players to have to suffer casualties in my game while they learn this lesson.

Then educate them right from the start. Explain 'this campaign will have big monsters that you should run away from, here is how you run away.' Give them a handout with some ideas.

This way they have fair warning.

BTW, Knowledge skills might be helpful for them to identify 'oh crap we shouldn't be here'.

- Gauss

You can only run up to your constitution score number of rounds until you need to start making CON checks to keep running. Generally, speed being equal, the side with the most endurance is going to catch up/escape.

You don't really need any other rules for chases, I've found.

Aratrok, the problem with that is the issue with attacks of opportunity. If you start toe to toe with a guy there is nothing in the rules that states he does not continue to get attacks of opportunity every time you move away from him.

Round 1: PC runs (provokes AoO). BBEG runs and catches up.
Round 2: PC runs (provokes AoO). BBEG runs and catches up.
etc. etc. until one of them drop due to failing con checks.

From everything I have read a creature running still threatens and is still allowed to makes AoOs. Personally, I think this is an oversight in the rules and I would not allow a creature that is running to threaten and make AoOs.

- Gauss

Im thinking of old CRPG's/JRPG's where you have a simple option to run away. I would kind of like to house-rule a mechanic to simulate that. Not that I want it to auto succeed, but something like the chase scene rules from GMG, scaled down to be resolved in fewer rounds, and to apply in any environment without the need to prep index cards.

I know that would belong in Home-brew Forum and this is Advice but I wanted to see if there was anything already in the rules that I was missing.

TBH, I had forgotten about the Con checks so that helps. But it still seems like a lot of rounds and a lot of opportunity attacks before it can be resolved that way.

Grimmy, like I said: a creature running should be unable to make AoOs unless they have the Run feat. But unfortunately that is not RAW. Then again, you are running a home game so you can play it any way you want. :)

- Gauss

I like that.

Another house rule I just thought of that could help is Withdraw x4 movement. (Or up to your top run speed)

I wouldnt go that route with Withdraw. It changes too much.

- Gauss

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/mastery/chases.html

Use those rules if you are so inclined to have someone being chased, after running from a situation. Depending on the situation, alot of creatures might find the chase to be too much effort to continue.

I mean, just because something could run full speed for x time, doesnt mean it will.

Addicted2Fail, apparently you didn't read the thread. The first post the OP made was that he wanted alternatives other than those rules.

Also, those rules still do not satisfy the problem of attacks of opportunity.

- Gauss

Would there be any attacks of opportunity? the only time a character or npc could attack is if

a- they caught up and managed a trip type attack (look at an ankle tap)

b- if the person being chased took a wrong turn and was cut off or trapped

c- if the person chasing had a movement advantage

I would recommend allowing an attack after running, but with negatives to hit. as they are expelling most of themselves on the actual chase.

PC is running away from NPC. They start next to each other.

Round 1:
PC uses the run action and provokes an AoO.
NPC uses the run action and catches up.

Round 2:
PC uses the run action again and provokes an AoO.
NPC uses the run action and catches up.

Repeat until PC is dead or one of them fails a con check.

You would think that creatures using running actions cannot make attacks of opportunity right? So did I. Until I checked the rules and it is not stated that they cannot make attacks of opportunity.

- Gauss

Thanks for understanding my dilemma Gauss.

No problem Grimmy, I am playing in Kingmaker after the current campaign (CoT) which I am GMing. My player (and future GM) has already stated that we better learn how to run. I have been concerned about this so I have been thinking about how to get around the problem of running away.

Honestly, I think the solution is Obscuring Mist or the Readied action technique I mentioned earlier. Either one fixes the problem, unless the creature has a faster move speed than we do. In which case the old axiom "I don't have to run faster than the troll. I just have to run faster than YOU!" comes to mind.

- Gauss

running away at lowish level is pretty tricky given the rules, AOO and such.
It is a shame as it does mean you lose some 'story' options....ie you'd like the party to nip in somewhere, get X and then fight + run way out

I imagine a fighting withdrawl is even harder to play out given the rules

At high level it is much easier....in a KM session last week the party of 7 escape from a combat quite efficiently

If the PCs know there can come times when they have to run they can prepare for that.
And always remember that you can use terrain to your favor.
For example you can use the withdraw action to move away from your enemy in a way that puts a square of difficult terrain between you and him, so he can't charge you.

There are some things the PCs could use to get away:

Items:
-Tanglefoot bags
-caltrops
-Scrolls of the spells below

Spells:
-Touch of fatigue
-ray of exhaustion (works even is the target saves)
-Slow
-Haste
-Obscuring mist
-Grease
-Animal aspect
-If there is a steep drop nearby --> feather fall
-Summon monster to guard your retreat

Feats:
-The dragon style
-Run
-fleet
-nimble steps

That's just off the top of my head.

Another solution from GM side is that not all creatures chase the PCs till they're dead.
Some just chase them out of their lair and when they're sufficiantly scared and far enough away they slow down and return, letting them escape.

That doesn't work with all of course.

But maybe have it start with an encounter like this or two, so they realise that stuff might be tougher. Then they should start by preparing escape routes ahead of time in case they need them. Have the horses ready, some spells prepared etc. If they don't do that, they might ahve to sacrifice the halfling.

And honeslty if they just wander into caves and attack stuff to find out if it's too strong, then they should feel the pain of being wrong. It's their fault for doing sloppy recon or not being careful enough to watch the target before attacking (for a knowledge check).

Although I was originally hoping there was a simple mechanic for shaking up the rigidity imposed by static movement rates, I still really appreciate the ideas you guys are tossing around. Different then what I was after, but still great.

Although I was originally hoping there was a simple mechanic for shaking up the rigidity imposed by static movement rates, I still really appreciate the ideas you guys are tossing around. Different then what I was after, but still great.

There is. And I'm kind of suprised to see the thread got this deep without any posts from anyone who knew of it.

Evasion and Pursuit

In round-by-round movement, when simply counting off squares, it's impossible for a slow character to get away from a determined fast character without mitigating circumstances. Likewise, it's no problem for a fast character to get away from a slower one.

When the speeds of the two concerned characters are equal, there's a simple way to resolve a chase: If one creature is pursuing another, both are moving at the same speed, and the chase continues for at least a few rounds, have them make opposed Dexterity checks to see who is the faster over those rounds. If the creature being chased wins, it escapes. If the pursuer wins, it catches the fleeing creature.

Sometimes a chase occurs overland and could last all day, with the two sides only occasionally getting glimpses of each other at a distance. In the case of a long chase, an opposed Constitution check made by all parties determines which can keep pace the longest. If the creature being chased rolls the highest, it gets away. If not, the chaser runs down its prey, outlasting it with stamina.

Excellent! How did I miss that! Thanks so much!

I know this is not exactly what you were talking about,but something for the party to consider once they get more use to a sandbox campaign like this: usually encounters begin with the party some distance from the enemy (whenever they come into sight). Even if they stumble upon something in a cave, if they are being careful, they might have time during the surprise round to start high-tailing it out of there.

It is much easier to run before you have started attacking or being attacked.

John I am interested in that side of it as well.

Don't worry Grimmy: I missed it too.

Regarding Run: James Jacobs said it does still allow people to make attacks of opportunity.

- Gauss

Short of using the full-blown chase scene rules from GMG, do you guys use any special rules to handle running away?

Not sure if this is what you are looking for but it might help.

In that same thread lower down is an idea that could be used in conjunction or alternately.

Gauss I noticed that you asked James Jacobs I was following along. It's great that he avails himself to us in that thread but in this case his advice to perform a trip maneuver only works if you play a pretty fast and loose game. By RAW it seems you would just spend a standard to trip, move away with a single move. NPC would spend a move to get up from prone, move adjacent to you again. Same problem with staying always adjacent, same problem with AoO's.

Grimmy: *shrugs* I don't like to contradict the man. As was shown though I was only half right about the tumble. While tumbling away+normal move is a decent tactic and will prevent attacks (and attacks of opportunity) it presumes a number of things. Especially: success using tumble. Failure = AoO anyhow. With that many rolls (against a monster that you are needing to run away from anyhow) the chances are you will fail a decent number of times and due to the reduced movement you will never escape.

Unfortunately, the chase rules (both sets of them) do not actually result in zero attacks of opportunity. Just who eventually wins the footrace. That is a scale that is not covered in 'a few rounds of running away'.

On the other hand, the readied action technique does limit you to exactly two attacks of opportunity after which you are perpetually 1 move action ahead of the BBEG (at which point you can use the chase rules).

Obscuring Mist can also be used in combination with the readied action technique with only 1 attack of opportunity made.

Anyhow, I think you have some suggestions to make to your players. I know I will be using them when the time comes.

- Gauss

I don't like to contradict him either he's a gentleman and a scholar.

About tumble: Maybe best used to get past/through something. Not for running away.

The Evasion and Pursuit rules Coriat linked were just what I was looking for. Everything else in the thread is gravy.

Coriat's link is good IF they are not next to each other to start. If they are next to each other then you wind up with AoOs. That is where the readied action trick comes in.

- Gauss

The question about such evasion rules is what to factor in.
Is it just base speed or are feats like nimble moves counted as well?

If I'd be fleeing through the forest (lots of difficult terrain), chased by a foe with the same base speed I'd be somewhat upset if my GM told me that we are equal in speed and so a dex check solves if I get away or not. After all I can move 5ft faster per turn through difficult terrain than he can.

Sounds like the dex check is in the event of a tie. So you wouldn't need it.