Kvantum |
Thomas Seitz wrote:I'd also like to know (like many others) about the Bestiary in this book.Wonder if there'll be more celestials?
Centianima, CR 4 Undead, a nightmare of two glowing-eyed skulls on either end of a centipede made up of stolen bones. Comes with 7 different variant options, too!
Fiend-Bred Animals, the CR 2 Chellish Hell-Bred Dog, the CR 2 Stygian Hot-Bred Horse, and the CR 1 Quillcat. Basically, half-blooded hellhounds, nightmares, and howlers.
Typhillipede, CR 2 centipede-ish outsider that can eat light, and is a favorite Improved Familiar of Duergar.
Thomas Seitz |
DeciusNero wrote:** spoiler omitted **Thomas Seitz wrote:I'd also like to know (like many others) about the Bestiary in this book.Wonder if there'll be more celestials?
Wow. That second monster seems pretty awesome to me. I can't wait to see it with my own eyes, especially the variants.
Kvantum |
Axial,
The knight-errant is actually a her, an orphan of the streets, turned reluctant servant of Zon-Kuthon, turned really reluctant denatsate beggar (removed her own nose and lips in twisted Kuthonite rite), saved by Iomedans who took pity on the disfigured young woman. She wears a silver helm completely covering the remnants of her face.
The Glorious Reclamation tends to wear white with red insignia or decorations, at least by the artwork.
After the Order of the Godclaw found Iomedae's long-lost sword from her mortal life, they refused to return it to her followers, saying their discovery of it proved the righteousness of their Order. One paladin decided to turn her back on the Hellknights and raised an army of devout servants of the Inheritor to reclaim the sword. After they took Citadel Dinyar, reclaiming the sword wasn't enough for their leader Alexara Cansellarion, so now they have set their sights on Westcrown, the city where her family originally hailed from, until they lost their title and lands in the Chelish Civil War.
Samy |
While looking at the last spread where the entire AP summary is, it strikes me that Hell's Vengeance is an #allmalepanel. Even all the sub-articles in book 1 (gazetteer, fiction, bestiary et al.) are all-male.
Next issue looks like it's going to at least have an article on the House of Thrune by Linda Zayas-Palmer.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
While looking at the last spread where the entire AP summary is, it strikes me that Hell's Vengeance is an #allmalepanel. Even all the sub-articles in book 1 (gazetteer, fiction, bestiary et al.) are all-male.
Next issue looks like it's going to at least have an article on the House of Thrune by Linda Zayas-Palmer.
That happens. And if it's surprising, then I guess that's a good thing because it means folks expect a wider spread of male/female writers in any one volume of Pathifnder these days.
Samy |
Having given the adventure a brief browse, I'm intrigued by what I could possibly salvage from it. As has been mentioned many times by the department of expectation management, there's practically no way to run the adventure near as written for a Good group, and I agree with that. But the situation and NPCs are interesting, and I'm interested in seeing the Good guys win, so I'm throwing around in my head how things might be in a mirror universe.
motteditor RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
Samy |
Slightly concerned by something in the next books that has implications on character free will.
Samy |
In case anyone is curious about artwork, here's the full-body single figure artworks:
p. 26 Razelago, accuser devil
p. 31 Bolgart Caggan, male wereboar
p. 33 Loran Allamar, human male cleric of Iomedae with mace
p. 40 Tileavia Allamar, human female cleric of Iomedae with sword and shield
p. 42 Rhona Staelish, human female ranger with dual axes and longbow
p. 44 Jexxi Six Splinters, halfling female rogue with shortbow and spear
p. 48 Jask Coalimber, kind of undead looking but human male with shortbow
p. 50 Siova Stormhilt, female changeling with axe and spell
p. 52 Losoni, male dryad with club and longbow
p. 57 Cimri Staelish, female human rogue with kukri
p. 59 Lencia Visserene, rather unique and I'm not going to spoil any more
p. 61 Lazzero Dalvera, we've already seen this picture
p. 70 Glorious Reclamation Squire, human female with sword and shield
p. 72 Glorious Reclamation Chaplain, human male with mace and holy symbol
My favorites are the changeling (new changeling art is always good!!) and seeing a male dryad, which was weird.
There's some more bust illustrations too but those are the full-figure ones. Plus the bestiary ones of course.
Axial |
Axial,
** spoiler omitted **
She sounds interesting. Is there art of her mutilated face, or just the silver helmet?
It's a shame, since Thrune, Chelaxian, and Asmodean people seem to prefer red as their color, and it would make sense for the GR to have a more visually opposed style.
So Alexara is probably the final boss...is it just me, or does she seem a bit seflish? Like, I WANT TO OWN IOMEDAE'S SWORD, or I WANT TO GET MY FAMILY'S LANDS BACK. Her goals seem kind of personal. But I suppose she is fighting to reclaim Cheliax. Maybe it's foreshadowing and she's not actually good-aligned?
Axial |
Slightly concerned by something in the next books that has implications on character free will.
** spoiler omitted **
It seems almost like an "evil PC control mechanism". In the intro to Way of the Wicked, Gary McBride more or less says that evil PCs need an external force controlling them or the campaign will devolve into a mindless kill-fest. WoTW sort of has that in the form of Cardinal Thorn. Hopefully, the game offers some kind of escape hatch to prevent the PCs from becoming total Thrune slaves.
[spoiler=Regarding the artworks...
Is Lencia the Paladin who you need to kill, or is it someone totally different?
Samy |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
By the illustrations in this book, I don't think the Glorious Reclamation has a uniform look. Perhaps that changes further in, but right now, Lencia the paladin, the generic squire and the generic chaplain all look quite different. If I would say anything is their dominant color, it would be metal/silver. All other NPCs in this adventure fighting for the Glorious Reclamation are just Longacre residents wearing what I guess are their normal outfits -- they haven't gotten any sort of headquarters-designed clothing shipments.
I did not get a selfish vibe from Alexeara, more just a fundie vibe. Like "Jesus was born in Nazareth, so it being in the hands of infidels is an affront to him" sort of thing.
Samy |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This adventure makes me wonder how I should run it as a GM. Should I play up children who are orphaned by the PCs' actions, people who are killed or their livelihoods ruined. Should I emphasize the pain and anguish they are creating. Is that part of the point of an evil AP? Or should I want to make the players feel good about what they're doing, that they're cool and badasses and whatever. Yeah yeah I know, table variation and talk to your specific players about their expectations, that's basic stuff. But I would like to hear peoples' opinions in general. When your *characters* murder a rescue puppy, should the DM make the *players* feel good or bad? Should I play up the puppy's sad eyes as the light leaves them, or describe what a cool arc through the air its head makes?
Hroren Ironbarrow |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This adventure makes me wonder how I should run it as a GM. Should I play up children who are orphaned by the PCs' actions, people who are killed or their livelihoods ruined. Should I emphasize the pain and anguish they are creating. Is that part of the point of an evil AP? Or should I want to make the players feel good about what they're doing, that they're cool and badasses and whatever. Yeah yeah I know, table variation and talk to your specific players about their expectations, that's basic stuff. But I would like to hear peoples' opinions in general. When your *characters* murder a rescue puppy, should the DM make the *players* feel good or bad? Should I play up the puppy's sad eyes as the light leaves them, or describe what a cool arc through the air its head makes?
I think this is as much a matter of the "shades of evil" as it is character expectation. So, for example: I think a character can be "evil" without being "indifferent". A villain could love puppies, but love himself more. He kills the puppy because it benefits him in a way he feels nescessary, but he may be conflicted in doing it.
In the same way that a good character may be conflicted when called to do something less than good, an evil character may do something evil and regret that it was "nescessary". If that's the case, make the player feel that angst. If they're committed to playing the role, they'll appreciate it.
On the other hand, turbo murder hobo? They'll revel in the gore.
F. Wesley Schneider Editor-in-Chief |
11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Should I emphasize the pain and anguish they are creating. Is that part of the point of an evil AP?
That entirely comes down to the game you and your group want to play.
With any game—but especially with ones that don't conform to common fantasy RPG expectations—before you start playing you and your players should discuss what you all want to get out of the game. That discussion should form the foundation of the experience you, as GM, seek to provide.
In the case of an evil Adventure Path, you should pose exactly the question you just asked to your group.
Maybe your players want the experience of being juggernauts of evil, fighting and crushing monsters they don't usually get to and indulging '50s comic book villain expressions of evil. If so, great! Go for it. Cackle along as the PCs burn every orphanage of wicker lesheys they encounter.
Maybe your players want an exploration into what it means to be evil, with all the ramifications and hurt laid bare, pitting their characters' angst and dark pasts against a world that scarred them. If so, great! Let them lash out, let them feel bad, let them push the boundaries of what they can bring themselves to do and see if their characters weep when finally their humanity breaks.
Maybe your players want something in between, 'cause there's quite a gulf there.
In any case, it's for you and your group to figure out what's right for all of you.
Along with that, you should CERTAINLY set some ground rules for what is and isn't too far. Evil games do NOT mean that everyone's filter gets switched off and every imaginable expression of id is suddenly okay. Talk with your group about what they do want to see in the game and what they certainly don't. Having these guidelines will help you run a game everyone enjoys and will serve you in defining what is too far.
There's a lengthy discussion about exactly this in our upcoming Pathfinder RPG Horror Adventures book, and it makes sense that this comes up here—an evil game and a horror game have many similarities.
But ultimately, if you're going to try and make the players feel something negative—fear, discomfort, sorrow, etc—you should have that conversation upfront, let them know what they're in for, and let them make the fully informed call on whether or not they want to play.
Evil can be fun, but evil can also be unsettling, and that's entirely in your and your groups' hands. Make sure you're all on the same page about the story you're going to tell/play so everyone can have the best possible time.
F. Wesley Schneider Editor-in-Chief |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In case anyone is curious about artwork, here's the full-body single figure artworks:
** spoiler omitted **
For interested parties, Losoni is Pathfinder's second canonically male dryad. The first was encountered by Harsk and Lini over in Pathfinder Origins #5.
You can read my thinking on, as Mark Moreland termed them, guyads, right here.
Samy |
While I have you here, Wes, any chance of some input regarding swearing the Hellfire Compact:
F. Wesley Schneider Editor-in-Chief |
Samy |
It is interesting that such a situation is glossed over particularly in a Cheliax-focused adventure. You would expect a whole lot of details and stipulations and so on, in the devil-focused country. For instance, there's no cancellation terms, so theoretically, you could walk out the door and cancel the deal like a cellphone plan or a Pathfinder subscription. "I no longer swear my absolute allegiance to those guys." There doesn't appear to be any sort of penalty involved. Nor is any sort of penalty given for breach of contract. You could just work against those guys, and the Compact doesn't state that you would have to pay any remunerations or anything. So it seems like at face value, the Compact is rather toothless.
My theory is that Fex actually tricks the characters into unwittingly signing on to something, like anybody who touches this stone will be unable to harm him in the future, which might play out in the third book where you apparently go up against him.
baron arem heshvaun |
Robert G. McCreary Senior Developer |
Samy |
The sort of "details and stipulations" that you mention come a little later. The starting PCs are still lower-level mooks; they need to prove themselves first before they're offered better things (and before they sign away better things).
But as written, they sign away *nothing*, which is what I don't get. The scene appears to have no meaning. I guess what I'm saying is that I could use some more information when my players start asking questions. If there's one thing I expect to have a problem with in this installment, it's that
Mikko Kallio RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Robert G. McCreary Senior Developer |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some clarifications about swearing the Hellfire Compact here. I think the GM Reference thread is a better place for such discussions.
F. Wesley Schneider Editor-in-Chief |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some clarifications about swearing the Hellfire Compact here. I think the GM Reference thread is a better place for such discussions.
Summarizing what Rob says over there:
"Kill them all."
Thanks, Rob. You're hardcore.
Lokifrid |
Hi,
I'm relatively knew to the world of Golarion (my 1st Adventure Path was Giantslayer) and wanted to know if the Council of Thieves AP somewhat sets a back story for Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance and if i should purchase/read/DM to my group it prior to the 2 Hell's AP. Note I do intent the same group to run both on different characters.
Thanks in advance!
donato Contributor |
Hi,
I'm relatively knew to the world of Golarion (my 1st Adventure Path was Giantslayer) and wanted to know if the Council of Thieves AP somewhat sets a back story for Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance and if i should purchase/read/DM to my group it prior to the 2 Hell's AP. Note I do intent the same group to run both on different characters.
Thanks in advance!
It isn't necessary. Council of Thieves would serve you well to help you understand how Cheliax "works" as a nation and to inform you on the city of Westcrown, which is featured in Hell's Vengeance.
Ryeookin |
This looks great! I wanted to play me some Way of the Wicked as a player but couldn't find anyone to run it near me sadly, so I ran it myself for a year. We got into Book 2 and had a blast but the group fizzled just before we got into the real fun stuff in book too. Tis a shame.
Anywho, if any of you guys/gals plan to run this over the internet like with Fantasy grounds 2 or similar, and are looking for players let me know! I'd love to get in on this. :D
If so you can reach me at rye oo kin @ hotm ail . com (just remove the spaces).
Note: I've dm'd an evil campaign and know how to play them constructively (read LE and the party works together, not trying to kill each other etc). As a player I look to contribute to the groups collective enjoyment of a game, not to take from it. As for character types, I kind of prefer the smart evil genius type. Hmm, maybe I could bring along my WotW character concept (the character I never got to play). I can dream anyway.. can't I? ;)
"All hail Asmodeus!" >:)