Battering Blast spell doubt

For convenience, here follows the spell:

Battering Blast

School evocation [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 3
CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature or unattended object
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex partial (see text); Spell Resistance yes

DESCRIPTION

You hurl a fist-sized ball of force resembling a sphere of spikes to ram a designated creature or object. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike your target. On a successful hit, you deal 1d6 points of force damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6). For every 5 caster levels you possess beyond 5th, you gain a second ball of force.

A creature struck by any of these is subject to a bull rush attempt. The force has a Strength modifier equal to your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (whichever is highest). The CMB for the force’s bull rush uses your caster level as its base attack bonus, adding the force’s Strength modifier and a +10 bonus for each additional blast directed against the same target. Each sphere of force makes its own separate bull rush attempt—if multiple spheres strike one target, you make multiple CMB checks but only take the highest result to determine success. If the bull rush succeeds, the force pushes the creature away from you in a straight line, and the creature must make a Reflex save or fall prone.

This spell pushes an unattended object struck by it 20 feet away from you, provided it weighs no more than 25 pounds per level (maximum 250 pounds). This spell cannot move creatures or objects beyond your range. Used on a door or other obstacle, the spell attempts a Strength check to destroy it if the sheer damage inflicted by the spell doesn’t do the job.

Now, my question is:

What does the part marked above mean? Do you get only a second battering blast (as implied by the word second)? or do you get up to 4 blasts at level 20th?

4 sounds way too good for a 3rd level spell...

Thanks

The typo is using the word "second" rather than "additional."

Yes, at level 20, you get 4 force balls. And no, it's not overpowered. Don't worry, it's just as irrelevant at level 20 as every other 3rd level spell is.

I imagine it was simply poor wording, as it says for every 5 levels not just at CL 10 you get a second, over all the spell does sound pretty good 20D6 total at 20th level. It is force so it won't be resisted by much (if anything) it requires a ranged touch which is easy to hit normally and bull rushes the target doing a lot more than a fireball can for example. I believe this is a strong spell but as it looks like the intended effect was four blasts at 20th level.

The typo is using the word "second" rather than "additional."

Yes, at level 20, you get 4 force balls. And no, it's not overpowered. Don't worry, it's just as irrelevant at level 20 as every other 3rd level spell is.

Are you sure?

This spell also deals force damage (the best damage there is) + free bull rush attempt + free "trip" attempt.

The second level spell scorching rays is 12D6 fire damage over multiple attacks.

Because most 3rd level blast spells have an AoE, dealing that 10d6 to every creature hit by it.

To get that 20d6 you have to be 20th level and attacking the same target with each blast.

Attacks that have a "High damage single target, low damage multiple" bit tend to get extra dice (especially since most require a range touch attack, like Scorching Ray) to make up for it.

The second level spell scorching rays is 12D6 fire damage over multiple attacks.

Fire damage is one of the worst energy types though. Meanwhile force is pretty much non resistible and affects incorporeal creatures.

Also, scorching ray has no other effect attached to it; this spell has 3 others (bull rush, "trip" and knocking doors).

And Scorching Ray is a lower spell level because of the fact that yes, it's less powerful.

Are you sure?

Normal cap damage for a 3rd level spell is 10dice. Four blasts would increase said cap up to 20dice.

Correction, normal cap for a 3rd level AoE spell is 10 dice. At level 20, a Fireball does 10d6 damage to every target in range. Battering Blast does 5d6 to 4 guys, 10d6 to 2 guys, or 20d6 to 1 guy (or, I guess 15d6 to one guy and 5d6 to another). That is not impressive at all.

This spell also deals force damage (the best damage there is) + free bull rush attempt + free "trip" attempt.

Every CR 20 enemy I looked had a CMD in the upper 50s/low 60s.

Your CL is probably 21 (that Ioun Stone), your casting attribute is probably 34 (18 + 5 leveling + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement), for +33 CMB. If you put one orb on each of four targets, you won't succeed against most enemies except on a 20.

So, sure, if you put all four blasts on the target, you've got a +63 and you might be bullrushing a CR 20 enemy upwards of 6 squares! Hooray! Bullrushing kind of does nothing, though, unless there are environmental hazards about, and I honestly can't think of any environmental hazard that would affect any of these CR 20 enemies.

As for the "trip," though, 99% of enemies late in the game will be totally unaffected by being prone. They're all flying, teleporting, formless/legless, or just otherwise not concerned.

So, it's a "cute" spell at 20, assuming you need to push someone...

The table bellow is from Ultimate magic.

As shown, scorching ray while above the cap, is only barely so (and only after 11th level).

Battering ram doubles the damage cap, with the best type of damage available and 3 other extra effects.

Maximum Damage for Arcane Spells
Arcane Max Damage Max Damage
Spell (Single (Multiple
Level Target) Targets)
1st 5 dice —
2nd 10 dice 5 dice
3rd 10 dice 10 dice
4th 15 dice 10 dice
5th 15 dice 15 dice
6th 20 dice 15 dice
7th 20 dice 20 dice
8th 25 dice 20 dice
9th 25 dice 25 dice

No doubt scorching ray is less powerful than battering ram, but that's not a fair comparison. A better one would be force punch:

School evocation [force]; Level magus 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT

Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude partial; Spell Resistance yes

[This content was created for the Pathfinder rules by Paizo Publishing LLC and is part of the Pathfinder RPG product line.]
DESCRIPTION

This spell charges your hand with telekinetic force. Your successful melee touch attack deals 1d4 points of force damage per level (maximum 10d4) and causes the target to be pushed away from you in a straight line up to 5 feet per two caster levels. For every size category of the target above Medium, reduce the distance pushed by 5 feet (–5 feet for Large, –10 feet for Huge, –15 for Gargantuan, and –20 feet for Colossal) to a minimum of 0 feet. A successful Fortitude save negates the movement but not the damage.

Yeah, Force Punch is slightly s$~#tier than Battering Blast is, it's true.

That doesn't make Battering Blast any better.

Yeah, Force Punch is slightly s*!@tier than Battering Blast is, it's true.

That doesn't make Battering Blast any better.

Slightly?

Quite frankly I believe battering blast should either be a 4th level spell, or restricted to only 2 blasts.

And quite frankly I believe you should actually think about what you're talking about nerfing for a moment.

It is a ranged touch attack blast spell that hits 20d6 AT LEVEL 20 (i.e. that level most games never hit), and carries two almost entirely worthless riders by that level.

At level 10, it can deal 10d6 to one target, while Fireball and Lightning Bolt are dealing the same to every target in range.

Even assuming 20th level, as a 4th level spell it has to contend with the likes of Ball Lightning, a spell that deals 15d6 PER ROUND, with no attack roll to enemies, making it even MORE lackluster.

You're advocating taking a lackluster spell from a lackluster school of magic and making it into a completely useless option instead of the "Meh, I have nothing better to do right now" spell it already is, because its damage dice exceed some arbitrary damage cap you think it should have at 20th level.

Slightly?

Force punch uses an lower hit dice (d4), requires a melee touch attack (instead of ranged), has half the damage cap (10 dice instead of 20 dice) and doesn't knock anyone prone.

And is really meant for Magi to Spellstrike with, so the melee touch attack is a benefit, not a downside.

And prone is mostly irrelevant by the time you get 2 blasts, and totally irrelevant by 3, so it's just more damage for 4 ranged touches.

There's nothing wrong with the spell. If you're the GM, you're well within your rights to change it's level or ban it, but you're overreacting, I promise you.

And quite frankly I believe you should actually think about what you're talking about nerfing for a moment.

It is a ranged touch attack blast spell that hits 20d6 AT LEVEL 20 (i.e. that level most games never hit), and carries two almost entirely worthless riders by that level.

At level 10, it can deal 10d6 to one target, while Fireball and Lightning Bolt are dealing the same to every target in range.

Even assuming 20th level, as a 4th level spell it has to contend with the likes of Ball Lightning, a spell that deals 15d6 PER ROUND, with no attack roll to enemies, making it even MORE lackluster.

You're advocating taking a lackluster spell from a lackluster school of magic and making it into a completely useless option instead of the "Meh, I have nothing better to do right now" spell it already is, because its damage dice exceed some arbitrary damage cap you think it should have at 20th level.

First, please calm down.

At level 10, it can deal 10d6 to one target, while Fireball and Lightning Bolt are dealing the same to every target in range.

Using inferior energy types and allowing for Ref saves for half damage, while carrying no secondary effects at all.

Even assuming 20th level, as a 4th level spell it has to contend with the likes of Ball Lightning, a spell that deals 15d6 PER ROUND, with no attack roll to enemies, making it even MORE lackluster.

Ball lightning uses electricity and not force damage. At higher levels this means a LOT. it also allows for REF save to negate the whole damage. Furthermore each globe only deals 3d6 electricity damage, which can be resisted individually with energy resistance. You will be hard pressed to find a high level opponent that will be taking damage from this at all.

because its damage dice exceed some arbitrary damage cap you think it should have at 20th level.

Its not an arbitrary cap that I made up. Its a guide-line cap given to us by the rules.

I

You know what? You win.

I explained the spell to you to the best of my ability, as did MPL, and you are either unwilling or incapable of seeing the point on this.

Rule however you want at your table. Next time don't post it in the Rules Questions forum if you're just going to houserule it anyway, that's what the Homebrew forum is for.

Ral' Yareth wrote:

Slightly?

Force punch uses an lower hit dice (d4), requires a melee touch attack (instead of ranged), has half the damage cap (10 dice instead of 20 dice) and doesn't knock anyone prone.

And is really meant for Magi to Spellstrike with, so the melee touch attack is a benefit, not a downside.

And prone is mostly irrelevant by the time you get 2 blasts, and totally irrelevant by 3, so it's just more damage for 4 ranged touches.

There's nothing wrong with the spell. If you're the GM, you're well within your rights to change it's level or ban it, but you're overreacting, I promise you.

You have a good point with the magi stuff, but I disagree with prone being irrelevant. It forces your opponent to spend a move to get up (incurring AoO) or face combat penalties.

Usually I am the GM, but I am going to play an evoker wizard in a friends campaign, and this spell is clearly jumping out as obscenely more powerful than all other 3rd level spells to me.

I'll build some encounters and test it at home to see how it feels. Have you used this spell in game? If so could you provide some pratical circumstances in which you felt it fail to deliver?
Thanks

I

You know what? You win.

I explained the spell to you to the best of my ability, as did MPL, and you are either unwilling or incapable of seeing the point on this.

Rule however you want at your table. Next time don't post it in the Rules Questions forum if you're just going to houserule it anyway, that's what the Homebrew forum is for.

I am not going to houserule it, because I am not the GM. I was hoping to discuss the rules governing it though.

...But yeah, if you cannot post without freaking out, I would prefer that you stop posting at all.

You have a good point with the magi stuff, but I disagree with prone being irrelevant. It forces your opponent to spend a move to get up (incurring AoO) or face combat penalties.

No, because flying creatures cannot be knocked prone. The ground is slowly becoming irrelevant around level 10, and is totally irrelevant by 15+.

Prone doesn't matter after the early game.

Have you used this spell in game? If so could you provide some pratical circumstances in which you felt it fail to deliver?

Thanks

I haven't used it because it fails to deliver a compelling reason to take or use it when 3rd level spells still matter.

The problem is you're only looking at how it scales. 5% or fewer of Pathfinder games get to 20, and 20th level casters are not wasting time with 3rd level spells in combat, even ones that scale well.

Look at real levels that real people play at. Though I hate PFS for other reasons, it provides a good guideline here--very few games go past 12th. Before level 10, this spell is strictly worse than Fireball or Lightning Bolt. It's only really useful for the bullrush, but at this level, your casting stat + CL isn't high enough to reliably bullrush anyone important, so the prone effect doesn't even happen.

And the inferior damage types mean little, now, because only caster BBEGs and very specific monsters have resistance/immunity.

At best, this is an anti-ghost blast until 10th. After 10th, it becomes comparable to Fireball against single targets, but at 11th, you'll have 6th level spells. Why are you still using 3rd level spell slots in combat except as clean up?

You're only looking at the upper ends, 15+, when the spell outscales Fireballs and the Force damage really matters. But you're ignoring how powerful it really is around the time when you'll actually be spending precious combat actions casting a 3rd level spell: levels 5-10. For those levels, it's pretty much garbage.

Ral' Yareth wrote:

You have a good point with the magi stuff, but I disagree with prone being irrelevant. It forces your opponent to spend a move to get up (incurring AoO) or face combat penalties.

No, because flying creatures cannot be knocked prone. The ground is slowly becoming irrelevant around level 10, and is totally irrelevant by 15+.

Prone doesn't matter after the early game.

Ral' Yareth wrote:

Have you used this spell in game? If so could you provide some pratical circumstances in which you felt it fail to deliver?

Thanks

I haven't used it because it fails to deliver a compelling reason to take or use it when 3rd level spells still matter.

The problem is you're only looking at how it scales. 5% or fewer of Pathfinder games get to 20, and 20th level casters are not wasting time with 3rd level spells in combat, even ones that scale well.

Look at real levels that real people play at. Though I hate PFS for other reasons, it provides a good guideline here--very few games go past 12th. Before level 10, this spell is strictly worse than Fireball or Lightning Bolt. It's only really useful for the bullrush, but at this level, your casting stat + CL isn't high enough to reliably bullrush anyone important, so the prone effect doesn't even happen.

And the inferior damage types mean little, now, because only caster BBEGs and very specific monsters have resistance/immunity.

At best, this is an anti-ghost blast until 10th. After 10th, it becomes comparable to Fireball against single targets, but at 11th, you'll have 6th level spells. Why are you still using 3rd level spell slots in combat except as clean up?

You're only looking at the upper ends, 15+, when the spell outscales Fireballs and the Force damage really matters. But you're ignoring how powerful it really is around the time when you'll actually be spending precious combat actions casting a 3rd level spell: levels 5-10. For those levels, it's pretty much garbage.

I agree that prone is less relevant at higher levels, but its pretty useful at lower levels (when you first acquire the spell). My point is that as a low level spell its most useful for the bull rush + prone bit; while at high levels it delivers a pretty decent (force) damage with no save. As its also a low level spell with no save for damage, it's pretty good for adding metamagic (quicken spell, dazing spell, empowered spell, maximized spell and etc).

a battering blast spell with maximize and empowered spell at level 15th, for example, sounds pretty good (90dmg+15d6/2; force damage and no save).

But yeah, you might have a good point regarding managing precious resources at lower level. I guess I'll just give it a shot and see how it feels.

a battering blast spell with maximize and empowered spell at level 15th, for example, sounds pretty good (90dmg+15d6/2; force damage and no save)

That is pretty terrible for a level 8 spell requiring multiple ranged touch attacks which will often be facing a -8 penalty due to cover and firing into melee.

It is however a pretty good choice for Dazing Spell.

Ral' Yareth wrote:

a battering blast spell with maximize and empowered spell at level 15th, for example, sounds pretty good (90dmg+15d6/2; force damage and no save)

That is pretty terrible for a level 8 spell requiring multiple ranged touch attacks which will often be facing a -8 penalty due to cover and firing into melee.

It is however a pretty good choice for Dazing Spell.

The metamagic feats given in the example were not the best, admittedly, but the point was that a lower level spell with high damage cap is very useful for applying metamagic.

dazing + piercing is probably a better example.

I agree that prone is less relevant at higher levels, but its pretty useful at lower levels (when you first acquire the spell). My point is that as a low level spell its most useful for the bull rush + prone bit;

The Prone isn't going to happen much, though. Before level 10, you only get one blast, and the CMD is low--only CL + casting stat. At level 5, that's probably going to be +10 or +11 at best. At level 9, we're in +16-17 range.

CR 5 monsters have CMDs in the early to mid 20s for the most part, so you're looking at less than a 50% chance to trigger the save for prone. So, you have an attack that might miss (early on, touch attacks are much harder), then a Bull Rush that only succeeds half the time (or worse), and then a save on top of it? All for prone? And it only deals 2d6 damage at that point?

There are a few CR 9 enemies with CMDs in the 28-29 range (still under 50% chance), but most are solidly in the 30s, making it almost impossible to bullrush. You get a nice bump at 10th, making it better than a 50/50 prospect thanks to the +10, but you have 5th level spells at that point and it's generally just not reliable at all.

while at high levels it delivers a pretty decent (force) damage with no save. As its also a low level spell with no save for damage, it's pretty good for adding metamagic (quicken spell, dazing spell, empowered spell, maximized spell and etc).

Having no save doesn't matter to Dazing--if there's no save, it adds one.

You're also ignoring that this spell is single target, so the damage boosting metamagics have significantly less effect. Maximize? 90 damage to one target with 3 attack rolls and a 6th level slot? Who cares?

You could have used that 6th level slot on Cold Ice Strike and used one of your 8th level spells with the standard action.

a battering blast spell with maximize and empowered spell at level 15th, for example, sounds pretty good (90dmg+15d6/2; force damage and no save).

That averages 116.25 damage. Hardly impressive. That's, what, 2-3 swings from a Pouncing Barbarian? Not worth the slot, not by a mile.

There's not really any combination of metamagics that makes this good. It's a weak spell early on, hands down. At high levels, it happens to be better in combat that most other 3rd level spells, but at high levels, you're just not using those slots in combat, so it doesn't matter.

Ral' Yareth wrote:

Have you used this spell in game? If so could you provide some pratical circumstances in which you felt it fail to deliver?

Thanks

I haven't used it because it fails to deliver a compelling reason to take or use it when 3rd level spells still matter.

Because from level 10 on it deals twice as much damage as Magic Missile and there aren't any other damaging force effects and Spectres are APL-3 mooks now and deployable en masse.

Because the Ghost template can be used to produce incorporeal opponents of nearly any CR and there are no damaging force spells between Battering Blast at spell level 3 and Bigby's Clenched Fist at spell level 8. And the latter is a not terribly fast acting single target damage over time spell.

Because at level 15 you don't want your front line friend to eat a full attack from an APL+2 Marilith and at that level it bull rushes at int+caster level+20 with three attempts and more likely to knock it out of full attack range than even a barbarian using strength surge.

CR 5 monsters have CMDs in the early to mid 20s for the most part, so you're looking at less than a 50% chance to trigger the save for prone. So, you have an attack that might miss (early on, touch attacks are much harder), then a Bull Rush that only succeeds half the time (or worse), and then a save on top of it? All for prone? And it only deals 2d6 damage at that point?

There are a few CR 9 enemies with CMDs in the 28-29 range (still under 50% chance), but most are solidly in the 30s, making it almost impossible to bullrush. You get a nice bump at 10th, making it better than a 50/50 prospect thanks to the +10, but you have 5th level spells at that point and it's generally just not reliable at all.

Yeah, you are probably right about the spell at level 5th, I'll give you that.

At 10th level I would say the spell is performing as it should. It doesn't suck and it isn't awesome.

It's the lack of cap at higher levels that makes this spell way more useful than other 3rd level spells. It deals damage as a 6th spell should with a crazy high cmb bonus to bull rush.

Having no save doesn't matter to Dazing--if there's no save, it adds one.

As it should, since its adding one more effect. To be clear, I never tried to claim otherwise.

What I meant to say is that bull rush + prone + daze is a really strong combination to be added on top of uncapped dice/level damage-dealing force spells.

You're also ignoring that this spell is single target, so the damage boosting metamagics have significantly less effect. Maximize? 90 damage to one target with 3 attack rolls and a 6th level slot? Who cares?

You could have used that 6th level slot on Cold Ice Strike and used one of your 8th level spells with the standard action.

So spending two combined higher level damage spells is a good measure on how much damage a 3rd level spell (albeit with metamagic) should do?

That averages 116.25 damage. Hardly impressive. That's, what, 2-3 swings from a Pouncing Barbarian? Not worth the slot, not by a mile.

Could you point me towards a damage spell "worth the slot" (preferably a single target one) so we can compare their effects ?

At high levels, it happens to be better in combat that most other 3rd level spells, but at high levels, you're just not using those slots in combat, so it doesn't matter.

By your own admission, the spell performs better than other 3rd level spells. You even compared it to casting a 8th level spell + a 6th level spell simultaneously cast. It seems more than worthwhile to memorize it, since you are using cheaper slots to great effect.

Because at level 15 you don't want your front line friend to eat a full attack from an APL+2 Marilith and at that level it bull rushes at int+caster level+20 with three attempts and more likely to knock it out of full attack range than even a barbarian using strength surge.

Precisely. You are also potentially dealing 15d6 force damage on top of all that.

It deals damage as a 6th spell should with a crazy high cmb bonus to bull rush.

Bull Rushes really aren't very useful, but I'll pretend they are. The damage is not like a 6th level spell. A single target 6th level spell is dealing (2xCL)d6 (Disintegrate). 15d6 at 15th vs. 30d6 (or really 32d6 because you must have that ioun stone by 15th).

Or 15d6 from Cold Ice Strike as a swift action.

So spending two combined higher level damage spells is a good measure on how much damage a 3rd level spell (albeit with metamagic) should do?

I think you misunderstood. You're worrying purely about slots spent, and I'm thinking about action economy, too.

Cold Ice Strike is great because it takes a swift action. You can use another spell, too. Two spells > one spell.

You're harping a lot on the damage, but it's single target. If you like single target damage and piles of d6s, you should play a Rogue. Then you'll see how ineffective it really is.

Could you point me towards a damage spell "worth the slot" (preferably a single target one) so we can compare their effects ?

Cold Ice Strike, for sure. Maybe Disintegrate, sometimes.

Mostly, though, I don't think single target damage is a worthwhile pursuit for a sorcerer or wizard. Their damage is weak. You need to jump through hoops for it to matter (usually a Crossblooded Sorcerer dip, all your feats and traits, etc.). Where they shine, damagewise, though, is AoE damage. Fighters can only hit one guy at a time for the most part, but a spellcaster can take out clumps.

If you're dealing damage as a spellcaster, in my opinion, it should be to lots of enemies at once. That is why I find Fireball far more valuable than this spell--it hits a huge area, and that's your job as a spellcaster.

If you're only facing a single foe, or only one that matters anyway, you're way better off "battlefield control"ing him. Isn't Flesh to Stone 6th level?

And hey, as a double threat at 6th level, a spell like Tar Pool doesn't just cripple the enemy's action economy (the true way to win fights), it can potentially deal a tremendous amount of damage, too.

By your own admission, the spell performs better than other 3rd level spells.

In Combat it is, but in combat, 3rd level spells are irrelevant by the time it's actually better.

You even compared it to casting a 8th level spell + a 6th level spell simultaneously cast. It seems more than worthwhile to memorize it, since you are using cheaper slots to great effect.

No, I unquestionably did not.

You misunderstood the meaning of that comment.

I compared it to casting Cold Ice Strike. One of them did force damage and came with a push, while the other gave me the opportunity to also cast another spell. The opportunity cost has a value as well.

Atarlost" wrote:

Because at level 15 you don't want your front line friend to eat a full attack from an APL+2 Marilith and at that level it bull rushes at int+caster level+20 with three attempts and more likely to knock it out of full attack range than even a barbarian using strength surge.

Precisely. You are also potentially dealing 15d6 force damage on top of all that.

I think pushing the Marilith away is potentially screwing your fighter friend over, too. He doesn't want to eat a full attack from the Marilith, but neither does the Marilith want to eat a full attack from him. And unlike the fighter, the Marilith can still be dangerous without a full attack action. I don't think the Fighter wants to face any of the Marilith's spell like abilities, either.

My real question, though, is why are you casting Battering Blast at the Marilith and wasting your action, when you could have cast a better spell that would incapacitate it longer?

Irresistable Dance means it'll be prancing and capering about, provoking AoOs for at least one round (and potentially up to 5). Even a lower level spell would be better--Banishment perhaps? Ice Crystal Teleport paralyzes. Lower still, Charm Monster would end the fight instantly. Hell, I'd even rather use Glitterdust than Battering Blast. Mariliths have pitiful Will saves.

Bull Rushes really aren't very useful, but I'll pretend they are. The damage is not like a 6th level spell. A single target 6th level spell is dealing (2xCL)d6 (Disintegrate). 15d6 at 15th vs. 30d6 (or really 32d6 because you must have that ioun stone by 15th).

Or 15d6 from Cold Ice Strike as a swift action.

I believe I wasn't clear here. What I meant was that the spell has a damage cap of a 6th level single target spell. I did not mean to claim battering blast was as good as a spell pf that level; as I said before, maybe it should be 4th level spell.

Disintegrate is an oddball example, because it used to be a save or die spell (5d6 with a successful Fort), so the damage was kept high in 3.5 and PFRPG to represent that.

Cold Ice Strike is great because it takes a swift action. You can use another spell, too. Two spells > one spell.

I'm not sure I understand what you are aiming for here.

If you were comparing cold ice strike with battering blast, I agree that the former is usually better (except if facing enemies resistant/immune to cold). wouldn't it be better to compare cold ice strike with a quickened battering blast? The former deals automatic area damage with a bad damage subtype and ref for half; the second requires multiple ranged touch attacks to deal one of the best kinds of damages in the game damage, a chance of making the target prone and no save for damage (1 level higher though). It seems a fair trade-off, except that the damage cap of the battering blast is higher than the cold ice strike one.

But is there a single target 3rd-4th level spell as good as battering blast?

My real question, though, is why are you casting Battering Blast at the Marilith and wasting your action, when you could have cast a better spell that would incapacitate it longer?

Irresistable Dance means it'll be prancing and capering about, provoking AoOs for at least one round (and potentially up to 5). Even a lower level spell would be better--Banishment perhaps? Ice Crystal Teleport paralyzes. Lower still, Charm Monster would end the fight instantly. Hell, I'd even rather use Glitterdust than Battering Blast. Mariliths have pitiful Will saves.

I don't actually disagree with you here, but I still find it odd that the spell is allowed to have a damage cap way higher than all other 3rd level spells and I am not entirely sure this was intentional.

I also get, your argument that in most cases this is a non-issue, but the spell just seems off-target, that's all.

I'm not sure I understand what are you aiming for here.

If you were comparing cold ice strike with battering blast, I agree that the former is usually better (except if the target is resistant/immune to cold). wouldn't it be better to compare cold ice strike with a quickened battering blast? The former deals automatic area damage with a bad damage subtype; the second requires multiple ranged touch attacks to deal one of the best kinds of damages in the game damage and a chance of making the target prone (1 level higher though). It seems a fair trade-off, except that the damage cap of the battering blast is higher than the cold ice strike one.

And a Quickened Battering Blast is 7th level. And Cold Ice Strike hits a line, which sometimes might get more than one guy (but usually won't). And the damage cap is only higher at levels the game won't likely reach (specifically 19-20). And it's worse for the first 4 levels you have 6th level spells. And a lot of things. You have to stop looking at the spell at level 20. Level 20 doesn't matter.

But is there a single target 3rd-4th level spell as good as battering blast?

Instant single target damage? No, I don't think so.

Boneshatter is tied at CL 10 and CLs 15-19, but better at all other CLs save 20+.

But then, you do have to consider, there does have to be a "best spell" for every circumstance. Is there any other 3rd level damage spell that hits as many targets for as much damage as Fireball? No.

Being the best spell for a specific job does not make the spell overpowered. Morningstars the best simple weapons (tied for best damage, multiple damage types, can be used one or two handed). Does that make them overpowered?

I don't actually disagree with you here, but I still find it odd that the spell is allowed to have a damage cap way higher than all other 3rd level spells and I am not entirely sure this was intentional.

I also get, your argument that in most cases this is a non-issue, but the spell just seems off-target, that's all.

I can't argue that it seems off to you. I just don't think it matters. Certainly not enough to do anything about it. If you're bothering to use it at level 20, I'll be shocked.

I guess I don't get the argument here. So Battering Blast can deal 20d6 Force Damage (in 5 groups of 4d6) at 20th level. Is it moderately better than other 3rd level spells at 20th level? Yeah, maybe. Is it overpowered? Not in the slightest. I can't think of a single situation where this spell will severely hinder a CR 18-22 creature.

Using the eyeball test, this spell isn't so great that every 20th level caster will have it memorized in multiple slots at the exclusion of many other 3rd level spells, so it isn't broken, and the odd damage cap isn't an issue.

Sorry for necroposting, just read the spell.
Intensified Battering Ram would deal 10d6 per ram, so 40d6 damage by 20th CL.
And you call this spell not broken?

Intensified empowered maximized battering ram deals 60+(10d6/2) = 77 damage per sphere? 77 * 4 = 308 damage. With non-resistable element (force)

It is slot of 9th level spell btw, can you please tell me better damage dealing spell on that level?

Incorrect, for the same reason you can't Intensify magic missile. It doesn't have a damage cap. It has a cap on how many spheres you can create.

Incorrect, for the same reason you can't Intensify magic missile. It doesn't have a damage cap. It has a cap on how many spheres you can create.

On a successful hit, you deal 1d6 points of force damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6)

It actually has damage cap and by RAW you can Intensify this spell

It's still the sphere dealing the damage on a successful hit, and not the spell itself.

It's still the sphere dealing the damage on a successful hit, and not the spell itself.

I beg your pardon? :D

Fireball. It's not spell dealing damage, it's fireball that is being created by spell. LOL. :D
Cone of Cold. It's not spell dealing damage, it's cone of cold that is being created by spell... And so on.

Better examples would be non-area spells like shocking grasp. What's the point of the smileys by the way? Are you overjoyed that you had to ask those questions?

Sorry for necroposting, just read the spell.

Intensified Battering Ram would deal 10d6 per ram ...

No, an intensified Battering Blast would max out at 7d6 of force damage per ball at 14th level.

Intensified Spell increases a spell's maximum number of damage dice by 5 levels, not 5 dice.

Better examples would be non-area spells like shocking grasp. What's the point of the smileys by the way? Are you overjoyed that you had to ask those questions?

Yes, those questions and your initial answer improved my mood greatly.

I see no reason debating this further.

Mrakvampire wrote:

Sorry for necroposting, just read the spell.

Intensified Battering Ram would deal 10d6 per ram ...

No, an intensified Battering Blast would max out at 7d6 of force damage per ball at 14th level.

Intensified Spell increases a spell's maximum number of damage dice by 5 levels, not 5 dice.

You are correct, my bad.

So it would deal 28d6 damage by 20 CL. I would say that this is even better than Polar Ray, considering extremely good bull rush, prone condition and non-resistable element vs 1d4 Dex drain.

Still really really broken spell for its 3rd level. I would limit it to 4d6 per sphere max and max 2 spheres.

What's the point of the smileys by the way? Are you overjoyed that you had to ask those questions?

:D :D

Smiley face swarm. Damage dealt forces a Will save or be affected by Hideous Laughter.

Bestiary 6 monster right there.

Emmit Svenson wrote:

Mrakvampire wrote:

Sorry for necroposting, just read the spell.

Intensified Battering Ram would deal 10d6 per ram ...

No, an intensified Battering Blast would max out at 7d6 of force damage per ball at 14th level.

Intensified Spell increases a spell's maximum number of damage dice by 5 levels, not 5 dice.

You are correct, my bad.

So it would deal 28d6 damage by 20 CL. I would say that this is even better than Polar Ray, considering extremely good bull rush, prone condition and non-resistable element vs 1d4 Dex drain.

Still really really broken spell for its 3rd level. I would limit it to 4d6 per sphere max and max 2 spheres.

That severely undervalues the spell for a 3rd level single-target spell (capped at 8d6). The odds of the riders coming into play are less-than-favorable as amply demonstrated. The spheres suffer almost all of the usual limitations of ranged attacks: soft cover, concealment, firing into melee, etc etc. which more than counteracts the generally less-than-stellar riders. If you're going to houserule it that way, do your players the courtesy of telling them before they acquire it.

This talk of damage caps only tells part of the story however. Look at Flaming Sphere, it does 3d6 per round, and lasts one round per level. Does that mean at CL 20 I should consider it's "damage cap" to be 60d6?

I could do that all to one guy, man, that seems way out of line, a Meteor Swarm only does 24d6!

A CL 18 Burning Arc hits 6 targets dealing 10d6/5d6/2d6/1d6/...1d3? 0?Well that's still 18d6, way better than Fireball!

No, I'm not serious, I just wanted to show that there are other considerations here. Sure, a CL 20 Crushing Hand could deal 40d6+240 damage, but that's not very likely to occur. Spell damage caps are (terrible) guidelines at best. Many of the iconic damage spells haven't had their damage adjusted since 1989, when monsters had far less hit points. Using Fireball as an example of a good damage spell is...not really a great idea in the first place, but just ask yourself how much damage it can theoretically deal- how many enemies can you pack into it's area? Now multiply that by 10d6, and that's the spell's real "damage cap".