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Goblin Squad Member. 788 posts (994 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Goblin Squad Member

TEO Cheatle wrote:

Tanner - Could double down as the butcher

"This jerky is sure tough"

"I didn't say jerky, I said jerkin. Put keep on chewing, it makes the leather softer"

Medieval tanneries were so foul-smelling they were placed outside the towns - I doubt anyone would want meat stored there.

"ooh, a junk node: maybe we'll find something to cook!"

jokes aside: yes, appetizing idea but not vital enough for the first few months.

Goblin Squad Member

celestialiar wrote:

It's cool that you can tab target and attack something by pressing the attack then run up and the attack will be executed,

I wanted to look at different weapon models, so 'attacked' a guildmate at the other end of town in order to get my weapons out.

Two minutes later he ran past me, and the attack went off. Ouch!

Also surprising that you can (at least could) attack yourself with melee weapons. (But quite useful for testing weapons and armor).

Goblin Squad Member

Wszebor Uriev wrote:


I had to get up at 4am a half an hour before I went to sleep and grind my own lead with my TEETH to draw on a piece of moldy deerskin floating down river. And I was THANKFUL for that.

you were allowed to stay up until 4.30 AM?!

ps: no need to use your teeth, if you bang two flints together just right you can get a universal tool that's good for nearly anything.

I miss the old days when we had to carve our own dice from mammoth tusks. "1d4 with of damage" really meant something if you had the right throwing technique.

Jazzlvraz wrote:

...and you try and tell the young people of today that...they won't believe you.

so true, so true.

nor do the older ones, actually.

Goblin Squad Member

I believe Lam's point is that more and more of the interesting forum discussion is happening at the Alpha forums and correspondingly less happens here.

I agree with Carbon: if you are interested in following the game closely at this stage, why not give it a free spin. (Just beware it is alpha and subject to large improvements in the next few months).

PM'ing anyone active in a major guild is likely to give you a free invite, since GW is now reaching the stage of alpha where they want to test what happens when you fill the game with players...

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
I think that finding the way to maximize a skill with a given XP budget might be a NP-class problem. Fortunately we have a relatively small O right now.

I think I agree, (but only because NP contains P, i'm not fully convinced about the N bit).

It should be "fairly straighforward" to calculate the most xp-efficient route to a given ability score treshhold. The "but i just need 0.01 more" complication only applies to the final stage, so that's just a one-time add-on.. or wait... duh! I see your point.

(gah, couldn't we have had this discussion 10 years ago, when I was into this type of stuff)

ps: but is it the right problem? isn't more relevant to minimize costs for a given skill level? Since costs scale the way they do it's very hard to 'squeeze in an extra skill level at the top' through efficient budgeting.

Goblin Squad Member

Whether to upgrade should not depend on this game in any way, but on the 3 eternal questions:

1- do you want to? (*)
2- can you afford it?
3- will doing it get you into trouble (**)(***)

(*) if you really really want to, men generally don't bother with the other two questions.
(**) if you don't understand the question, you are probably a one-person household.
(***) if yes, re-evaluate question 1.

Goblin Squad Member

To OP:

there is a world of difference currently between Int/Dex and Con/Per. Hopefully that will change when ranger/barbarian and sorcerer/bard are implemented

If you want to focus exclusively on being a Tanner, well.. getting your Con high enough means investing heavily into just about every con-based skill.

Nihimon wrote:
I fail to see a rational explanation why learning to wear Light Armor (Chameleon, Scout, and Swashbuckler are the most efficient ways for a Wizard to raise Dexterity) should help me learn to wear Clothing Armor better (Clothing Armor Proficiency 2 requires a 12 Dexterity).

ninjaed by Urman, but yeah: after being forced to run around in tight leather pants, going back to your robes feels just so much better. (Though by that rationale, rogues should need to train medium armor to build dex for their light armor skill..)

..maybe pretending to be a rogue puts you in the right mindset to "unlock your inner dexterity" ?


Goblin Squad Member

KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:
Being wrote:
I haven't been keeping my Ptolemy refreshed: How many seconds in a degree?
360 of course, 60 seconds to the minute 60 minutes to the degree. 60 all the way down like the elephants,
3,600, isn't it?

aye that be likely true

Though it be odd that something that almost came first be smaller than something which be apparently minute or is it miniscule? Edam be confused now.

The first division was into "primae minutae", the next into "secundae minutae", ie first minutes (= small things) and second minutes.

Within short time (but not minutes) this was shortened to "minutes" and "seconds".

(ie: Blame the users, not the design)

why are we discussing time again?

Goblin Squad Member

randomwalker wrote:

Just like for attacks, each matching keyword gives hitpoints and potentially other bonuses.

gahh.. bad wording. Try again: Just like for attacks, each matching keyword gives a stacking bonus. (For armor: hitpoints and other bonuses, for attacks: damage).

attack example:

* basic dagger strike keyword progression:
Piercing/Precise/Light/Masterwork/Penetrating/Hasted, Artifact

* dwarven steel dagger keyword progression:
* steel rapier keyword progression: Piercing/Precise/Balanced/Penetrating

essentially basic dagger strike scales like this:
lvl 1: any dagger or rapier do same damage
lvl 2: use dagger+1 or rapier+1 (or better) for max damage
lvl 3: use dagger+2
lvl 4: use T2 dagger+2 (but a T2 rapier is better than a T1 dagger)
lvl 5: use T2 dagger+3
lvl 6: use T3 dagger+3 or higher

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:
...the various armor proficiencys.
Those appear, from the spreadsheets, to be simple gates, requiring purchase before continuing on the path they control. Each is accompanied by the same small Characteristic boost one gets from buying anything, but nothing beyond; the same applies to all proficiencies, not only armour.

Apart from the gating, the point of buying higher armor levels is to get access to more keywords. Just like for attacks, each matching keyword gives hitpoints and potentially other bonuses.

The keyword progressions were in the spreadsheets at some very early stage but I cannot find them now.
My notes from back then for rogue armor:

Cham: light/stealthy/agile/MW/reinf/shadowskin/intricate/truesilver
Scout: light/stealthy/quiet/MW/supple/shdowskin/flexible/truesilver

now compare this to an armor such as Strapped leather, which has the keywords: |Masterwork, organic|light/stealthy/agile/reinforced|

By comparing the lists, you see that a rogue with
-Chameleon8 (5 keywords) gets 5 matches Strapped leather +3,
-Chameleon6 (4 keywords) gets 4 matches out of a Strapped leather +2 (or +3)
-Chameleon4 (3 keywords) gets 3 matches, but would get the same from the much cheaper Footpad's leathers +2.
-Swashb/scout get no benefit beyond +1 (3 matches incl MW).

Bascially: a Chameleon would want the highest 'plus' Strapped his training would allow. Scout/swashbuckler would use a +1 strapped in a pinch but rather have Boiled leather.

Goblin Squad Member

Hi Nari,

the way it looks to me, there are "3 main parts" to a character:

-weapon and attack feat
-armor and armor feat
-expendables and class feature feat

In addition there is utilities, saves, hitpoints/power, skills, crafting etc etc.

Of the "main 3" you can slot only one at a time, but you can combine different roles.

- You can, for example, slot fighter armor feat, fighter attack feat (weapon specialization) and cleric expendables (spells). You need to keep up with both martial achievements and divine achievements, and you will need to train the full 'class levels' to unlock some skills, so you will lag behind, but you can do it.

- The worn equipment must match the slotted feat. Axe specialization and holy symbol is an obvious mismatch, but armors also need to be keyword-matched as far as possible.

- Weapon swapping... as far as i know (help please?), switching weapon switches attacks but not attack feat. You could have focus weapon and axe, but your orisons would not be very powerful if you have axe specialization slotted. No idea how shields work.

Goblin Squad Member

Agree with the provisio that idea 4) is not to add new training options to a settlement, just adding convenience by offering the already available skills at multiple locations.

Please also make trainers visible on the minimap (and distinguishable from guards). Not seeing buildings nor trainers on the map makes it pretty useless for navigating a settlement!

In the tooltip (to come) for each skill, add info on what trainer can teach it.

Goblin Squad Member

"Hold the line! I'm going to put up a Wall of fire to split their group, so don't charge in until... GAAH! WHY DID WE BRING THE BARBARIAN?!?"

Goblin Squad Member

good craftsmanship!

as i commented, there is an inherent self-selection in all surveys of this type, but I suspect the intro questions are there for a reason several good reasons.

(I guess you are planning to look for correlations/anti-correlations, bimodal distribution etc and not just averages/totals. I for one would be curious to see if you can group responses into 'PvE' and 'PvP' groups or if there is a full continuum. Also it could be interesting to see if there is clear correlations in the top/bottom priorities).

Goblin Squad Member

celestialiar wrote:
300 ms is lag city.

My pingtest from scandinava to US west coast gives results around 180 ms (East coast around 110ms).

If GW reduces the 300ms tick, that might easily turn the game into a "US-only" game.

Goblin Squad Member

Crazyriver wrote:

And yet another way to frame the question...
If I would like to be a substantial crafter and adventurer, will this take longer than might truly be feasible? (Given xp is solely related to time)

i'd say you can do both, but will have to narrow/specialize in both roles. You will lag behind the specialists but I currently believe (hope?) that lag will be less apparent as we reach higher levels and the power curve flattens out.

Very rough rule of thumb is that half the xp cost of lvl 20 put you somewhere around lvl 15-17, so you could think of it as "fighter16/weaponsmith16" vs "fighter20" vs "weaponsmith20"

For the adventurer, the difference between 16 and 20 is 1-2 extra keywords in play (if you have top notch gear). For the crafter, though, it may be the difference between having and not having a key t3 recipe.

Note that Refiners and Crafters can be 100% dedicated alts just sitting safely in a settlement. Expect most large guilds to have 100% dedicated crafter characters. Gatherers on the other hand actually need to stay alive in the field, so there is good synergy between adventuring and gathering.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:

...We'll look back at it once the server economy is in full swing to see if it's still resulting in weird behavior.

I suppose this is good enough for now, seeing as you may have other stuff too on the to-do list.

After a weeks the cold start problems should be over, so the issue may more or less resolve itself.

Goblin Squad Member

what Guurzak said about cold start,
not just for adventurers, but for crafters and refiners.

The argument of 'different players should do it' is valid for justifying high xp cost to progress in each craft/trade, but not for the mismatching levels.

Goblin Squad Member

Simple question:

looking in the GW "sample crafting and refining" guide, i see a lot of seemingly basic recipes that require (IMO) disproportionally high refining ranks to make.

example1: footpad's leathers. This appears to be the "starter rogue armor" given at leatherworker rank 2 , but requires a weaver rank 7 padding. For comparison the starter fighter armor (hide and steel banded) only requires rank 3 components. Reaching weaver level 7 is a significant xp cost, and players at these levels have likely outgrown rank 2 armors...

example2: introductory trophy charm. This appears to be the "starter fighter feature item" given at jeweler rank 1, but requires smelter rank 6 silver bars.

Question: are item ranks for refining equal to the minimum skill level for making them, or can you make them at lower skill (given the recipe) just using correspondingly longer time?

Goblin Squad Member

Bluff, persuasion, sense motive and perform are already on the skill list.
Factions are on the to-do list.
Aiding (and controlling) escalations are on the wish list.

Goblin Squad Member

Giorgo wrote:


Pending Confirmation
Blacksmith, Carpenter, Stonemanson

these three skills match the bulk construction resources very well:

Blacksmith -> bulk iron ore
Carpenter -> bulk wood
Stonemason -> bulk stone

I expect the 3 skills are for constructing buildings (settlements/PoI). So far unknown how they interface with Architect (and siege engineer...)

Goblin Squad Member

Quintalmot wrote:
Hmm, you have not seen reform of US export regulations perchance, have you? Reformed yes, simple, uh. ...

Did you make your Will save, or did you take the full Wis damage?

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:

The distinction is important because it's debatable whether or not chaos is a bad thing. Some settlements (such as Aragon) would say it's a good thing. Where corruption is always a bad thing even for chaotic settlements. It generates only negative effects.

I don't like the term 'Chaos' here. 'Freedom' and 'Deregulation' have good sides, but 'Chaos' is almost by definition negative - Webster synonyms include Mess and Havoc.

In the same way, 'Lawful' is too positive. Less rosy alternatives are: Bureaucratic, legalistic and conforming. (And netural good is obviously the best alignment).

Chaotic settlements should be allowed to rename the 'Law-Chaos' axis to 'Bureaucracy-Freedom' in forum discussions.


to the topic: economic warfare is good, but trying to evade consequences is ...bad sportsmanship. Shame on the ninja locust! Shame I say!

Goblin Squad Member

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KarlBob wrote:
What do robot cows like? Electronic hay?


that i lurked for a long time before posting

Goblin Squad Member

Master of Shadows wrote:
a fighter does not forget how to swing a sword, a cleric does not forget how to wear armor, a rogue does not forget how to pick locks, and a wizard does not forget how to prepare spells simply because they moved away from home...

And major league baseball players would keep the same batting average if they trained with a soccer team for a season?

Taking away things I have spent a significant amount of time and energy developing is a pisspoor mechanic from a customer service standpoint.

Having your settlement razed - that is loss of significant time and development. Having to find a new place to live within a month or some skills are temporarily disabled - not really so much.

(And if anyone ends up in the situation where no established settlement will take them, then the real problem isn't the loss of skills).

Goblin Squad Member

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Ryan Dancey wrote:

There's a corner case [....] "Dear customer service, we keep finding people in nearby hexes strip mining and they're all aligned with NPC settlements and we can't get rid of them without taking Rep and Alignment hits, please make them stop."

But... that only works if the company actually listens to the players, and everybody knows tha... oh, right. This is Goblinworks - talking to them is actually very likely to work.

To paraphrase (with great artistic liberty): We don't believe this will be an actual problem. If so happens, we'll deal with it.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:

3. Every harvester, even if criminal flagged, may be bait just waiting for an attack. How long do you figure before the NBSI turns a settlement's controlled lands into a PVP playground?

I don't quite follow. If the harvesters are unaffilated, how many players could you end up in combat with? (ie what is the max "party size"?) Five? You don't get to say "me and THIS army" if you are unaffilated.

Giving ninja harvesters the criminal flag lets defenders pick the fight if they want to, and might even (?) have npc guards respond. If you see "getting the criminal flag cheaply so you can bait defenders" as an advantage, we see it differently. Settlements can obviously legalize it if they prefer.

Blue blocking requires collision detection between non-hostiles. Is that in the game? (if so, blocking building access will be more annoying than mushroom guarding). Also, blue blocking isn't very successful at protecting from ranged attacks in a tab-target game.

Goblin Squad Member

KarlBob, some weeks ago wrote:

Armor slowing effects or no, I just like to go faster than un-augmented characters in most MMOs. I hope at least one feat line will let us run faster than a baseline character in street clothes.

Note: I don't mind waiting if that's not part of MVP.

I expect/suggest/hope that monks and barbarians get this some way into their armor feat line. Not tabletop monk speeds, but a small increase (+10% ish). Certainly less than a mount.

But: In tabletop, barbarians and monks typically use their speed to get into melee, not for kiting. There would have to be a way to prevent evoker monks from dominating pvp and pve.

Goblin Squad Member

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Lam wrote:
I have vague memories (or not given my age), but Nihimon for the actual reference! Or sometimes KC.

I find the problem isn't so much remembering stuff that was stated by devs, as forgetting all that was speculated by forumites and avoiding mixing them up.

so.. why did Buurz marry that fish again?

Harad: I must say I am impressed with the amount of work you put into preparations. Your maps have been praised multiple times, but let me restate it's a privilege to play with a GM who takes such pride in quality preparations. (And with the latest gobbocasts i even got a face and voice to go with the text...)

You may all meet Foxglove in game - she is likely to be an elf, mostly travelling around the southeast map during GMT prime time (based somewhere in the Bri/KP/Phae trinity), but with great ambitions of traversing the entire map and visiting every settlement during EE.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Black Silver of The Veiled, T7V wrote:
ugh... someone in Alpha has already started 'Griefing' activity. Shame on you. Hope you get it out of your system before EE starts if not, I hope the 'Ban Hammer' hits you repeatedly.

From a different angle: GW prioritized these changes to the game in this extremely hectic period because of one single griefer.

Whether the griefing was an "experiment" or not, the response from GW is encouraging.

Harad, is it time to declare this dead?

Goblin Squad Member

Find Cheatle's guide, or the GW alpha crafting guide. Sorry for not providing links (short coffee break at work only).

That should give a list of skills, but the production lines are not completely straightforward.

miner -> smelter -> weaponsmith & armorsmith

but miners may also find crystals, weapons also need leather grips or wooden hafts, etc. etc.

Goblin Squad Member

longbow kills contribute to martial achievements,
shortbow kills contribute to subterfuge achievements.

Goblin Squad Member

Dragoons appear as female goons. In terms of game mechanics, it's an armor skil. Probably the skill needed by burly fighters for squeezing into chainmail bikinis.

Goblin Squad Member


The items have to be good to fetch that kind of money. As Edam implied, there will be enough crafters rushing to craft equivalent items (either to make money or to close the percieved power gap)

But the description of smallhold makes me wonder how Taverns will work in order to be worth that much more.

ok, let's try to continue.

I'm away next 2 days for my grandpa's funeral (sad enough, but he was 92 so not tragic nor very surprising), but will surely check in on my return.

Goblin Squad Member

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Democracy doesn't have to be absolute democracy nor direct democracy. Bascially (according to Popper and myself) it simply means that leadership is accountable to the people and can be controlled/replaced by them without needing to change the system (as opposed to a dictatorship/tyranny, where revolution is needed).

Democracy by representation is good enough for reality, and the government/administration/board/council can be fully accountable without everyone meddling in day-to-day affairs.

One feasible way of organizing a functional 'democracy' is by means of electing representatives for various committes and/or a centralized government. In practice, settlements and guilds will be divided into subgroups anyway which make logical units.

Mechanically, it is not possible to enforce unless GW give mechanisms that allow transfer of power (formal guild/settlement leadership) without the consent of the current holder. This was previously discussed in the context of settlement leaders going AWOL and crippling the settlement, so I'm sure there have been some thinking around the issue. On the other hand, if you need to enforce democracy it isn't a very good democracy in the first place.

My best solution: find a leader you trust, and talk to him/her as needed. (If large organization: make a hierarcy of such leaders).

I would like to see the story come to some kind of conclusion, though I would would be ok with fast-forwarding and summarizing a bit to move the plot along quickly.

I am still intrigued by the story hook - the statuette, insane dwarves and the mysterious 'one in the water'.

On the other hand, you playing Alk as npc requires Dezi and Cat to take a more active role to compensate - so I'm only for continuing with a solid buy-in from everyone.

The cat is very intriguing, but moves too much in the background. If we go on, there should be a revelation scene so we can establish Cat as a proper party member.

nice interview with Tork. Nice to have a face to the voice too :-)

any idea when/if this will resume?

Goblin Squad Member

Nightdrifter wrote:
Similar problem cropping up for wizards. Eg. to get level 8 wizard requires Mage 6 which requires Clothing Armor Proficiency 2 which requires Dex 14.

Dex for wizards and Wis for rogues is much easier to train by taking cheap levels of adventuring and trading skills. Con is harder based on the current data.

(Ironically, I expected Rogues to be the most MAD class, but it turns out they may be the least).

Goblin Squad Member

Congratz! Nothing like getting a new alt!

Kitsune Aou wrote:
..except the [thing], which is resolved by using caffeine

yeah.. caffeine is one of your closest friends the next 1-2 years. (but don't give anymore to the baby).

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:

Keywords on your role feature/expendables don't have anything to do with keywords on your attacks/weapons or armor feat/worn armor.

so.. to sum up & dumb down (feel free to correct):

There are 3 independent keyword systems here, each linking something you trained (and slotted) with something you have equipped.
attacks (including cantrips & orisons) <-> weapon (sword, staff, wand etc)
armor feat <-> armor (cloth to heavy)
role feature <-> expendables (trophy charms, rogue kits, spellbooks, holy symbols)

It feels weird to think of spellbooks, holy symbols and thieves tools as 'expendables', but this is how I understand Stephens response.
Role features are weapon specializations, sneak attacks, wizard schools and cleric domains.

Goblin Squad Member

on the topic of keywords, can someone confirm how the keyword system works?


Ex: Say I'm doing a basic dagger strike:
-i have the attack at lvl3, giving me keywords: Piercing/Precise/Light
-i have one-handed melee specialization at lvl2, giving me keywords Slashing/Piercing
-i have light blades specialization at lvl1, giving me keywords Piercing

Does the attack and fighting style independently look for equipment keywords?

ie: Assuming my dagger is piercing, precise and light, does that mean I get:
* basic hit chance/damage based on weapon and attack
* 3 bonuses (extra hot chance? damage?) from my attack skill matching keywords
* 1 bonus (+5 precision) from 1h melee spec matching keyword
* 1 bonus (+5 precision) from light blades spec matching keyword

(btw.. can I slot both specializations or only one?)

Do you simply get the feat bonus added once per keyword that matches between the armor and your armor feat?

Ex: if a unbreakable14 fighter wore an armor with all 8 keywords matching, would he gain 8x35 bonus hp, 8x2 fortitude bonus, etc ?

Goblin Squad Member

Reading the latest 'Alpha testing week' blog notes, I see the Achievement system is being fleshed out in a way I like very much. Thanks.

Consider my worries dropped until further notice ;-)

(ps: does subterfuge replace martial for rogues? ).

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote: may find that you rarely pay attention to Achievements until you're very close to earning one and then maybe you adjust your play a bit to close it out.

Thanks, good to see the same message reinforced. But: I would definitely pay attention to achievements if I can't advance to the next level because I lack points.

Now, I don't expect that to be the case until lvl 16 or so. Then the question is "what % of total achievements to i need to max the role"? If there are 1000 martial achievements in the game, it isn't a problem. If there are only 500, getting 400 of those likely means blademasters must go out and get the "kill 1000 mobs using a greatclub" achievement.

Ryan's comment suggests (but isn't crisply clear to me) there will be enough achievements laying around that achievements won't be the bottleneck.

The corner case is gathering skills: if I want to gather materials but not craft, the bottleneck for advancing my skill is definitely the craft achievements.

Goblin Squad Member

Dear GW,
You promised me something like "xp over time means no grind, only meaningful stuff".
But the currently available info about Categories and Achievements has me worried.
It is a simple matter of scaling, really, but still... (if lvl 20 is supposed to be 2 years away, then the number 6250 means 'several per day')

1) Craft achievements.
So far, the only thing we know(?) we get craft achievements for is crafting stuff. Fine. But if lvl12 achievements require you to craft 6250 items (that seems to be the pattern) of said type and you need a total of 400 craft achievements to reach lvl20 skills (and 250 for the gathering/refining skills), then even if we can craft 40 different types of materials, it still seems we must craft thousands and thousands of items (and hours!!) just to qualify for increasing our skill. And many of these will be in crafts we don't even care about - low-lvl stuff made just for the 'cheap' achievements.

2) other achievements.
Essentially the same. Requiring players to play around with different possible weapon/spell combination is good. Requiring them to kill thousands of mobs with weapons/combos they don't like just so they can reach the next level with the those they do like... sounds awfully grindy.

What is the crucial piece of info I'm missing here?

-Is it that i can get 75% of the achievement with 1% of the work, so that the grind doesn't start until the endgame, and the powercurve there is so flat I shouldn't worry if don't like it?
-Is it that there will be so many more crafting/mob/weapon/spell/escalation categories added that I'll never need a lvl 10+ achievement to make it to 400?
-something else?

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Don't worry about it. I read all the ideas and if I think that something is too close to a feature that will be in the game I usually take action.

so.. is Ideascale then only for new and original ideas?

I thought the crowdforging was also (more!) about priorities ("I want this before that") and not just brainstorming.

Three quick points from the devil's advocate:
-If I believe the community would prioritize a "known idea" way higher than GW thinks, isn't Ideascale exactly the right tool for that?
-If the community absolutely loves an idea you were going to put in anyway, isn't that just good?
-If the community hates an idea you were planning... isn't it better to know?

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

Passive, Attack, and Expendable Feats


ooh.. shiny!!

Finally starting to get a real grip on the keyword system with this.

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