If you use hatchets with Hunt Prey and Far Shot or Strong Arm you get to a range increment of 40 ft. (technically that's not 100 % correct, but you have no penalties inside of 40 ft). One hatchet should have the returning rune or you use quick draw and have some extra hatchets handy. + Flurry (-2/-4). Works well for me so far. Even better with light hammers (80 ft.)
A question concerning the extra damage from draconic instinct:
Do you think one could argue that there a two separate possibilites for adjusting your damage? a) you can increase the damage
So while I want to increase the damage, I am not going to change my damage type (of the rage bonus damage). If this were not possible in your eyes, would you believe it to be
I wasn't attacking rusty Mae, but the night hag; it was Rusty Mae who downed me though. My Recall Knowledge about the night hag was successful. I knew about her weaknesses, but I don't recall them now. I had a cold iron weapon at my disposal and used it. It is shifting +1 striking cold iron dagger, of which we got three from the elves in the jungle. I assumed the other party members would take care of the badly injured Annis hag, while the monk and me took care of the night hag (which was my hunted prey).
Captain Morgan wrote:
Didn't know about the doubling rings yet. Thanks for the tip. And then I was wrong again about the hag, one time the GM said "Annis Hag" and one time "Rust Hag" and I got confused. And yes it was her who took me down, not the night hag. It begins to make sense...We will improve our tactics the next time.
keftiu wrote: Was there any debuffing of the enemy - Trips and Shoves, Demoralize, spells and the like? In PF2, using all three actions to attack on your turn is generally considered sub-optimal, and the game expects that negating your opponent's advantages is just as important as hitting them. I am not sure, there was more buffing going on than debuffing, but I thought I already wrote that. The wizard's opening was a lot of damage, which took the rust hag to "badly hurt" and the night hag to "hurt". Maybe that's not optimal but it felt okay at that moment. Debuffs are not a catch-all-solution, at least in my play experience. You wrote: "It is generally considered". I hope I was able to describe the scene somewhat, so this is a very concrete case. I think 2e edition is not about general but about individual solutions at least that's the way I always read it. Hope this does not come off as rude, if it does, I apologize (As you will have noticed, I am not a native speaker/thinker).
Thanks everyone for your insight. I learned a lot, but don't get me wrong, I also already knew a lot at that point. I tend to inform myself and play Pathfinder since its inception and I also read a lot in the messageboards. Then again my 2e play experience is rather limited so I really appreciate the insight, especially in this case, where it also comes from experience and not that much from theory-crafting, which I feel was more prevalent in the 1e boards. I appreciate your help.
Lycar wrote:
All good points. I guess this our weakness, we don't have an efficient martial debuffer.
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
Okay now I think something is off there and I have to ask my GM. We played on Foundry, and he rolled openly one time and we saw her stats. Her to hit was +23, her damage 2d10+12. I guess he had his reasons, but another thing I did not mention is that he played the monk, because the player was not there, and he did it well, but maybe in this regard not completely to his abilities (the player did not fill out the Foundry character sheet, the GM knew most of his numbers but not all). Still you are probably right about the fourth action; instead of striking it makes more sense to get a good position. At least this is what I seemed to have learnt from this thread. To my defence: In Foundry/Forge you can see the state of health your opponent is in (at least when you allow that feature). The night hag was "Near death" after my Twin Takedown and the second attack. So I assumed it was super risky to go on hitting, but I thought if I can take her out, it is worth the risk (of course: wrong). But then I hit with the third attack, did average damage but did not bring her down. As I still had a fourth action in the second round (remember: already having scored three crits), I tried again. We had her flanked so her AC was at -2, and I had a to hit of +15 (my main weapon already has a +2 potency rune).And I hit her again (rolling a 17 if I remember correctly) again with average damage. Your calculation about the ranger is almost accurate: It's +19/17/15 with first weapon and +18/16/14 with the other one, 125 Hit Points, AC 27, +29 with Dodge (rogue dedication feat). Damage in this case was 3d6+6 (flanked/rogue dedication with sneak attack). I don't know if there is a one handed weapon that can be thrown, which is agile (very important for a flurry ranger I believe) that has a d8 damage die. Another thing: Our wizard even gave me Stone Skin after the night hag's first round which ultimately saved me from dying for real.
SuperBidi wrote:
I thought about this and you are right to some extent. I'd say, until now I hit more often than the other martials. But I think I don't overvalue spike damage. I accept that my damage is lower. Problem: My damage against the night hag with three crits and all other attacks hitting (super lucky) was still underwhelming when totalled. Compare it to a Barbarian - some of his attacks would not have hit, because his third attack is at minus 10, mine at -4. The overall damage would have been about the same. Maybe well that I am wrong in this calculation because his crits are so much better on average, I lack experience, we never had a barbarian in our group. But you gave me something to think about.
HumbleGamer wrote:
A) We recalled knowledge, as described above B) Yes, he does that.
My ranger recalled knowledge about the hag even beforehand, because we were able to spy on them. Some difficulty arose because of the positioning of our team and the small entrance to the room. We did not fight the stone tree (started and soon felt it was pointless), the wizard was able to turn it off somehow (with Thievery and the use of a hero point). The GM probably changed the encounter, it was a night hag and a rust hag and we had information about their weaknesses and their strengths. The wizard player and my ranger both successfully recalled knowledge about them (Monster Hunter did not help, but it will really come online by the next level (10). But that is not really my point. My point is: even when I hit with three crits (I don't roll that good usually) and all my other attacks, the night hag wasn't going down. My problem isn't that I feel bad because my character went down (that happened often enough before), my problem is my damage output feels pitiful (especially compared to the hag). The fight started with some good damage by the wizard, as far as I remember the rust hag crit-failed her save and was already badly injured, the night hag was only injured I think. As I could flank the night hag with the monk and was hasted and able to give my hunt prey to them via Warden's Boon I'd say it was not that bad staying in position, because she already was badly injured. Of course, it was risk, but then it should have paid off, because all attacks hit, damage rolls were a little bit above average. About the GM: I think he is a good GM; he is neither fudging rolls nor is he someone who has fun punishing his players. In the second book my experiences were not that bad. SuperBidi is of course right, I should talk to him. After the session I already told him that I was not too happy about how it played out.
Okay, I am sure you heard it all before and I apologize in advance.
Allright, this is probably the way it works in Pf 2e, but when you ambush a NPC party (I think around Cl+1) of two opponents with a PC party of five and set it up at least okay, probably not a 100 percent perfect, go down after two rounds (usually the very efficient cleric keeps me alive and working, but this time, there was (only) one round, where he wasn't able to heal me) it feels odd. To be honest, it feels rather frustrating. My AC does not matter (it is the highest possible for a strength focused ranger at this level). So yes, this was frustrating. I guess it is just not for me then. But hear me out: I want to like it and I want to make it work for me. It just makes me sad, because there's a lot of very nice things in this system and I don't mind failing (well, I probably do). But this time it was not a BBEG encounter, I rolled perfectly, was buffed, had perfect position, used my class feats (e.g. third action to give monk or the gunslinger buddy my Flurry (= Warden's Boon). Yes we could have improved the setup to a small extent, if we were system masters de luxe, I guess. But we also could have done a lot worse. In the end we survived, but my character never feels like a hero, even if he crits three times. Makes not much sense to me.
If anyone is interested in the build, but wants to optimize a little more: Light Hammers are better in every way for this build (range increment doubled and bludgeoning, same damage; the sweep trait of the hatchet is almost worthless for a ranger (exception: you have double prey, are not using it in conjunction with Shared Prey and the opponents are adjacent). For me it was just a question of style and the inspiration for the build was "Tracker", the protagonist from "Black Leopard Red Wolf" by Marlon James.
I read the the thread and find interesting arguments for both sides - concerning Twin Takedown. I'd lean in to the camp that would allow melee weapons with the thrown trait to be thrown; the reason is the wording of other feats that specifically say make a "ranged strike" or a "melee strike", even after specifying what kind of weapons you have to be wielding in the requirements. Twin Takedown: Requirements: "You are wielding two melee weapons, each in a different hand."
Penetrating Shot: Requirements: "You are wielding a ranged weapon."
Resounding Blow:
There may as well be examples that give credit to the other side of the argument. And maybe it was an oversight, but this is somehow hard to believe, because there are so many instances where the strike is specified and where it is not specified.
Just one question: You wrote: Level 3
(You can take Second Ally at level 8) I wonder why you took Viking Weapon Familiarity at level 4. You already got everything that this feat gives you. You can't take Viking Vindicator at level 6. Prereq. is level 8
Thanks a lot Captain Morgan (again) and Falco271 for your further suggestions. I will definitely look into all the mentioned archetypes. I had Dual Thrower on the list, but wasn't sure if it wasn't redundant somehow. @Ed Reppert: That comes very close, if I remember correctly. But in the beginning I had a heavy crossbow and the second class feat was Crossbow Ace which I retrained into Gravity Bow. Attributes are correct as well.
Thanks again, I already changed my build somewhat yesterday and my thoughts on the monster hunter line mirror yours: a +1 to hit is so important in this edition and knowing the weaknesses of an enemy is not bad either (and all without action cost). I threw out Relentless Stalker and took Monster Hunter for it. Level 10 will be Master Monster Hunter - I get another free archetype feat at 10 which will again go to Skill Mastery, so Nature becomes a master skill. Already thought about taking Warden's Boon for my monk buddy, because fists are agile and he will definitely profit from Hunt Prey + Flurry.
I like gravity weapon but it only activates on the first strike and if you don't hit with it, it is wasted, so it is probably a candidate to be swapped out for Warden's Boon. Sadly that does not work: I have to switch it with Blind Fight, as both are have level 8 as a requirement.
Planned class feats open for debate:
The other question: Do I go on with the rogue archetype after level ten or do I take another dedication? Until now I don't see too much reason to change it, as taking advanced tricks or skill mastery is very good I think. I think I don't need to be a switch hitter as hatchets work for ranged and melee. 40 feet range is not super great, but were mostly okay it seemed.
Hi Captain Morgan, thanks a lot for your suggestions. Most things you suggested, were already part of my build. (Played books one and two with him, but after a long break GM allowed us to respec or change characters, but I only want minor changes)
The build until now:
Skill Feats are: Survey Wildlife, Quiet Allies, Terrain Stalker, Foil Senses, Cat Fall, Streetwise, Experienced Tracker, General Feats: Fleet, Toughness, Swift Sneak Ancestry Feats: Natural Ambition, Clever Improviser, Incredible Improvisation (almost never needed the last two). Took no medicine stuff, because three players already did, one of them is the healbot cleric. Master Skills: Survival & Stealth
I also wonder which class feat to take at level 10.
Some things are set, we are currently level 9 and before the third book of the age of ashes campaign. Ulan Dhor is a human ranger from Thuvia whose basic stick is fighting with two hatchets (no animal companion).
I will not say anything about statistics, because enough has been said about that. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to compare the extremes of PF 1 and 2, because that is not what the OP is about. He never said he wants the PF1-thing, where NPCs only hit with a 20, and PCs only not hit rolling a 1 (besides this is more of a "problem" with optimizers in the 10+ level range. In our Pf1 campaign Iron Gods we don't have these extremes). I think and may be wrong of course, he'd like to experience a slightly higher to-hit-chance for the PCs in general. I play both games and I can relate to the feeling of the OP. I want to like Pf2, because when I read (and still learn) it, it makes much more sense, seems more solid than Pf2. On the other hand, actual play (AoA campaign) felt ok, when with four players and like a death spiral when with three players. Rolls feel so much more important than in Pf1. I think this is basically a good thing, but I also don't like it when I have average dice rolls and don't hit with my good attack(s) when we're fighting against some stupid birds that have higher ACs and to hit than we do. I think it makes sense that if you fight the real baddies, everything can go wrong and it is really hard to succeed. But lying in the dirt with the dying condition in the first round of combat against some mooks is not what I find terribly entertaining, because I want to contribute. I am still undecided on the system (loved it when I read it) in actual play, because I need more experience in the system to judge it. I really hope we will improve (as players but also as our player characters).
Thorax Toothlicker wrote:
Super late, sorry, but in case anyone else has this problem: The basic crafter's book only contains the common level 0 formulas [EDIT: of the Equipment chapter]. There is no book for higher level formulas. The blank formula book is not needed, it's just handy to have all your formulas in one place (that' how I understand it).
K1 wrote:
Sorry, I don't unterstand this. Is this an answer to the OP or to my question? I know that the instinct ability works only while raging, and it is unclear if weapon spec. is always active or also only during a rage. So I want to know if the boni are added up during a rage or if instinct already includes the damage of weapon spec.
Sorry for thread capture, but the messageboards won't let me make my own thread (got cancelled, twice) Hi there,
Is there a way to get to expert proficiency in glaive/another or all martial weapons via a general feat, multiclassing or something I have missed out? Thanks a lot!
@OP: By RAW this works. Some people might argue about not being able to imagine this, but that's their problem. There are more absurd things a character can do in Pathfinder than being fast with a shield. Anyway, their immersion issues are not a problem of the game engine. Of course, a GM could always rule that only one free action per round is reasonable, but that would clearly be out of line with rest of the system.
Technically, two-handing a weapon and getting the bonus of a shield is possible with the quick draw feat and a quick draw shield with a one-handed weapon that may be two-handed (e.g. longsword). Of course, AoO will be weaker. Then there are two other ways: shield brace (alas, not for Pathfinder Society as I understand it) and unhindering shield.
@Gray Warden: Unless you can really pull it off. A ranger switch hitter needs "only" Power Attack and Quick Draw for melee, the rest would go into archery. When he gets Point Blank Master online (6+, I'd rather say 10th level is quite early enough), he could retrain the feats. Or stay a not so super optimized switch-hitter. Apart from that, if in the game world of your GM weather and visibility are a thing, a melee option might come in handy. For most characters switching between melee and ranged might be doable for the first three or four levels but after that it's usually not worth to keep it up. Specialization is a thing in Pathfinder and Air Walk and Fly are not unheard of.
Grimniir wrote:
I guess I wasn't looking correctly at your to hit: It's +22 with PA included, right? (BAB 11 Str 8 weapon 2, weapon training 2, WF/GWF 2 = +25 -3 PA = +22 +25 to hit is not mediocre, it's good. Especially when your bard's haste (+1 haste) + inspire courage (+3 comptence) come into play. +29/+29/+24/+19 or with PA +26/+26/+21/+16 is really good.
The nodachi is a martial weapon. Still, that does not invalidate your point, Dasrak. A scimitar can be used one or two handed, a big advantage when you suddenly find yourself grappled by a monster with an (usually) incredbly high - or better: ridiculously high - CMD/CMB. OP: your AC is (not bad but still) too low to really matter. Against low-level enemies you don't need it, because you kill them too fast, against higher CR enemies it's not enough to be of importance. I also think you should go two-handed. A good indicator (only my experience from play) for Martials is the following: Can you reliably hit your own AC with your first attack? If the answer is yes, either bring it up or use your resources for other things.
I'd advise against dazzling display and the like, because at this level fear immunity is quite common - many monsters are outright immune to mind affecting effects. Besides you already have Cornugan Smash, which is way superior to Dazzling Display (because: Action Economy). Two important things already mentioned in the thread: up your saves and get Gloves of Duelling, ASAP. Your accuracy is slightly above mediocre, same is true for your saves. EDIT: I hope this does not come across as rude - I don't know your group or your GM, it's all just based on my experience, so take it with a grain of salt. EDIT II: I should read before I write. You already aim for gloves of dueling and you have a bard for accuracy. He effectively doubles your damage. Be thankful, protect him. So, increase damage ouput (go two-handed!) and improve your saves. All in all the character is already a solid build.
I am completely open to another backstory that fits the basic mechanical assumptions:
I only took the trait "Disgraced Noble" for story reasons. In every case I want one of the campaign traits in the Player's Guide Still more important: how to play the dual identity with the setup (or your new backstory)
@Isaac Zephyr: Thanks for the input, this is a good idea. @Dave Justus: What you suggest would lean (as I understand it) towards the idea of three identities: the "public" vigilante who works in the open, more or less; the social identity Almuric the Numerian, a bodyguard (or sth. else) and the real identity Cu Mannory. Cu will lay open his true identity and his plans to exact revenge before the group rather sooner then later. Or did you have sth. else in mind? Concerning backstory/motivation:
If this is not enough in your eyes, do you have some ideas for hooks?
For an upcoming campaign (War for the Crown), I plan to play an avenger vigilante with one level of savage technologist. The (as of now not too well constructed) story goes as this: As a child and teenager, Cu Mannory, member of the minor noble house Mannory in Oppara (proteges of house Basri) was trained in the use of the Elven Curve Blade (ECB), traditionally used by nobles of house Basri (see Player's Guide WftC).
After a series of apparent misfortunes (?) in business and ill-omened performances in noble circles, the fortunes of the family dwindle. Nevertheless, with the help and protection of house Basri, the Mannorys overcome those dire straits, although their standing in the nobility is greatly diminished
When Cu is twelve years old, destiny strikes with a heavy blow: his parents and other important figures of his family are killed by assassins; he and his sister are kidnapped. It is assumed behind closed doors that business rivals house Talbot are at the bottom of the attack. Cu and his sister Virinia are sold to slavers by the assassins instead of killed (they fetch a good price as they are both pretty and healthy). The slavers sell the sister after having her way with her first. Cu is sold to agents of the Technic League near the border to Galt. They travel north but are surprised by a raiding party of the Blood Gars tribe. Cu is able to flee (in doing so snatching a firearm) and survive some weeks in the wilderness of southern Numeria. His training begins (+ story...)
After some years, he feels ready to begin his revenge and travels back to Oppara, Taldor. He calls himself Almuric, finds out that house Mannory still exists, though only as a shadow of its former self: his grandmother, a mentally retared cousin, an old cook, and a servant (who will later become his partner in crime). He does not want to endanger his relatives, so he only reveals himself to the butler. Unbeknown to his relatives, he takes up a small room in the vast but run-down mansion.
Whatever the reason, something earned him the attention of Lady Martella Lotheed (Maybe she knows more than meets the eye?) and the campaign starts. Yes, the story has some striking similarities with "The Count of Monte Christo". QUESTION: I still do not know how I should handle the dual identity stuff. For I currently see three identities: 1. Cu Mannory, assumed dead (real)
Or would it be enough if "Cu Mannory" were his vigilante identity? How would you do/play it? As for his patron deity, I think Calistria is quite fitting. Mechanics: We always have a 25-point-buy: his stats will be Str 14, Dex 16+2, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
Planned Social Talents up to level 10:
Planned Vigilante Talents up to level 10:
Skills are mainly for intrigue; then of course Perception, Stealth, Acrobatics, maybe some points in Climb, minimum 1 point for the knowledge class skills to get sth. out of Ancestral Enlightenment I will have other questions, but for now this is all.
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