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I think what Gisher meant was you apply shifting to get a melee weapon with the thrown property (hatchet, light hammer, etc.) not necessarily shifting it during combat.


If you use hatchets with Hunt Prey and Far Shot or Strong Arm you get to a range increment of 40 ft. (technically that's not 100 % correct, but you have no penalties inside of 40 ft). One hatchet should have the returning rune or you use quick draw and have some extra hatchets handy. + Flurry (-2/-4). Works well for me so far. Even better with light hammers (80 ft.)


A question concerning the extra damage from draconic instinct:
"While raging, you can increase the additional damage from Rage from 2 to 4 and change its damage type to match that of your dragon's breath weapon instead of the damage type for your weapon or unarmed attack."

Do you think one could argue that there a two separate possibilites for adjusting your damage?

a) you can increase the damage
b) you can change the damage type

So while I want to increase the damage, I am not going to change my damage type (of the rage bonus damage).

If this were not possible in your eyes, would you believe it to be
a) a balanced houserule
or
b) overpowered?
Thanks for your input.


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I wasn't attacking rusty Mae, but the night hag; it was Rusty Mae who downed me though. My Recall Knowledge about the night hag was successful. I knew about her weaknesses, but I don't recall them now.

I had a cold iron weapon at my disposal and used it. It is shifting +1 striking cold iron dagger, of which we got three from the elves in the jungle.

I assumed the other party members would take care of the badly injured Annis hag, while the monk and me took care of the night hag (which was my hunted prey).


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Captain Morgan wrote:

If the GM ran the book as written, +23 to hit corresponds to Rusty Mae, who is not actually a rust hag but an ANNIS hag, which does also have rust powers. I can totally see why that got confusing.

The biggest red flag for me, Turgan, is your weapons have different to hit bonuses, which indicates you're enchanting the two separately instead of using the cheap doubling rings. Not only is that less cost effective, but it limits your ability to leverage other types of weapons and material.

Didn't know about the doubling rings yet. Thanks for the tip.

And then I was wrong again about the hag, one time the GM said "Annis Hag" and one time "Rust Hag" and I got confused. And yes it was her who took me down, not the night hag. It begins to make sense...

We will improve our tactics the next time.


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keftiu wrote:
Was there any debuffing of the enemy - Trips and Shoves, Demoralize, spells and the like? In PF2, using all three actions to attack on your turn is generally considered sub-optimal, and the game expects that negating your opponent's advantages is just as important as hitting them.

I am not sure, there was more buffing going on than debuffing, but I thought I already wrote that. The wizard's opening was a lot of damage, which took the rust hag to "badly hurt" and the night hag to "hurt". Maybe that's not optimal but it felt okay at that moment. Debuffs are not a catch-all-solution, at least in my play experience.

You wrote: "It is generally considered". I hope I was able to describe the scene somewhat, so this is a very concrete case. I think 2e edition is not about general but about individual solutions at least that's the way I always read it.

Hope this does not come off as rude, if it does, I apologize (As you will have noticed, I am not a native speaker/thinker).


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Thanks everyone for your insight. I learned a lot, but don't get me wrong, I also already knew a lot at that point. I tend to inform myself and play Pathfinder since its inception and I also read a lot in the messageboards. Then again my 2e play experience is rather limited so I really appreciate the insight, especially in this case, where it also comes from experience and not that much from theory-crafting, which I feel was more prevalent in the 1e boards. I appreciate your help.


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Lycar wrote:
Turgan wrote:
But that is not really my point. My point is: even when I hit with three crits (I don't roll that good usually) and all my other attacks, the night hag wasn't going down. My problem isn't that I feel bad because my character went down (that happened often enough before), my problem is my damage output feels pitiful (especially compared to the hag).

SuperBidi already mentioned it, but you have to keep in mind that the martial classes are very closely balanced for damage output in PF2. Since the Flurry Ranger can do a lot of attacks, every individual attack is correspondingly weaker. A critical hit with a d6 Agile weapon is about as good as a regular hit with a d12 weapon outside of static bonuses. On the other hand, you have more opportunities to make the static damage count, so there is that.

It is generally not possible to one-shot enemies outside the lowest of levels. In return, most enemies will likewise not be able to drop a PC in just one round of attacks.

However, as far as tactics are concerned:
SOLDIER-1st already hinted at it, but if your enemies' actions are worth more then your own individually, it becomes more important to deny the opponent their actions, rather then bringing your own attacks home.

Think of it as trading a pawn for a rook in chess: If you can inflict 20 damage with a hit, and the enemy 30, if you forgo an attack to deny the enemy theirs, you are basically preventing 10 damage to the party. Tripping, grappling and even shoving enemies can force them to either suck up penalties or spend actions countering them.

Sure, if that only costs them their 3rd action, it will not make their first two attacks a round any less deadly, but many monsters have special abilities that require 2 or 3 actions to perform. And if that 3-action attack can, say, inflict 60 damage to the whole party, then your sacrifice of 20 damage just means the party is 40 damage ahead.

Do you have any martial controllers in the party? Can the Monk do trips, grabs and...

All good points. I guess this our weakness, we don't have an efficient martial debuffer.


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SOLDIER-1st wrote:

Night hags have ac 28, 170 hp, +20 attack, and do 2d8+8 or 2d10+8 damage.

I'm assuming you were also level 9 (since you said that next level was 10), so you should have around ac 26, 120-140 hp, +18 attack, and do ~2d8+6. (I don't know your exact build, but those numbers should be close at least)

The hags average damage would be 16/18 per hit (32/36 on a crit), and you said that she took you down in two rounds. She would have had to land all 6 attacks (or just roll EXCEPTIONALLY high damage/get a few crits) in order to do that, which would also mean she wasn't moving anywhere or attacking anyone else.

It sounds to me like you just got really unlucky. A night hags melee is slightly better than yours, but that's offset by the cold-iron weakness (though admittedly that's useless if you don't have any cold-iron). If you were flanking and hasted and still got wrecked that badly, then luck is pretty much the only thing you can realistically put that down to.

On the other hand, you took up 6 entire actions of an on-level enemy, allowing the other 4 party members to use their ~12 actions in relative safety. That seems both acceptably tactical and heroic to me.

All that being said, I'm contractually obliged to point out that there's no reason to end a turn near an enemy when you're hasted. I know you felt like it was an acceptable risk, but it's just not unless you're an AC focused champion/monk or an hp focused barb.

Okay now I think something is off there and I have to ask my GM. We played on Foundry, and he rolled openly one time and we saw her stats. Her to hit was +23, her damage 2d10+12. I guess he had his reasons, but another thing I did not mention is that he played the monk, because the player was not there, and he did it well, but maybe in this regard not completely to his abilities (the player did not fill out the Foundry character sheet, the GM knew most of his numbers but not all).

Still you are probably right about the fourth action; instead of striking it makes more sense to get a good position. At least this is what I seemed to have learnt from this thread. To my defence: In Foundry/Forge you can see the state of health your opponent is in (at least when you allow that feature). The night hag was "Near death" after my Twin Takedown and the second attack. So I assumed it was super risky to go on hitting, but I thought if I can take her out, it is worth the risk (of course: wrong). But then I hit with the third attack, did average damage but did not bring her down. As I still had a fourth action in the second round (remember: already having scored three crits), I tried again. We had her flanked so her AC was at -2, and I had a to hit of +15 (my main weapon already has a +2 potency rune).And I hit her again (rolling a 17 if I remember correctly) again with average damage.

Your calculation about the ranger is almost accurate: It's +19/17/15 with first weapon and +18/16/14 with the other one, 125 Hit Points, AC 27, +29 with Dodge (rogue dedication feat). Damage in this case was 3d6+6 (flanked/rogue dedication with sneak attack). I don't know if there is a one handed weapon that can be thrown, which is agile (very important for a flurry ranger I believe) that has a d8 damage die.

Another thing: Our wizard even gave me Stone Skin after the night hag's first round which ultimately saved me from dying for real.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Turgan wrote:
But that is not really my point. My point is: even when I hit with three crits (I don't roll that good usually) and all my other attacks, the night hag wasn't going down. My problem isn't that I feel bad because my character went down (that happened often enough before), my problem is my damage output feels pitiful (especially compared to the hag).

I think one issue also comes from your choice of character. The Flurry Ranger makes a lot of attacks. Obviously, the more attacks you do and the less extreme your damage (rolling 2 criticals in a raw is far easier than rolling 4 of them). Your chances to make an astounding round or a useless one are lower compared to a character who makes less attacks.

On top of it, the Flurry Ranger has high accuracy. Obviously, high accuracy means lower damage.
These 2 things mean that even when you are lucky, you don't actually roll that much damage compared to, say, a Barbarian who combines few attacks and no accuracy bonus with a massive damage boost to compensate. Rolling a hit and a crit with a Barbarian is not that rare of an occurrence and the damage in that case it stellar. On the other hand, rolling no hit with a Barbarian is also extremely common (a good third of your rounds) and that can feel disheartening, too.

From my experience, people tend to overvalue spike damage. It's extremely pleasant to see a big damage being rolled and it overcompensates a mediocre average damage.
So maybe the issue comes also from your character that is not a very good fit for you.
It was my 2 cents.

I thought about this and you are right to some extent. I'd say, until now I hit more often than the other martials. But I think I don't overvalue spike damage. I accept that my damage is lower. Problem: My damage against the night hag with three crits and all other attacks hitting (super lucky) was still underwhelming when totalled. Compare it to a Barbarian - some of his attacks would not have hit, because his third attack is at minus 10, mine at -4. The overall damage would have been about the same. Maybe well that I am wrong in this calculation because his crits are so much better on average, I lack experience, we never had a barbarian in our group. But you gave me something to think about.


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HumbleGamer wrote:

Recall knowledge would have paid off ( depends whether your DM gives you good hits or trash ones).

In my experiences, there are a couple of dangerous encounters in AoA, but rusty mae is not among those.

Ps: does your dm somehow describe the attacks you make? For example "the fire ray seems not to be that effective", "when you strike with your holy weapon the creature screams" Or *your dagger hardly scratches the monster skin".

In order to get how different weapon and attacks interact.

A) We recalled knowledge, as described above

B) Yes, he does that.


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My ranger recalled knowledge about the hag even beforehand, because we were able to spy on them. Some difficulty arose because of the positioning of our team and the small entrance to the room.

We did not fight the stone tree (started and soon felt it was pointless), the wizard was able to turn it off somehow (with Thievery and the use of a hero point).

The GM probably changed the encounter, it was a night hag and a rust hag and we had information about their weaknesses and their strengths. The wizard player and my ranger both successfully recalled knowledge about them (Monster Hunter did not help, but it will really come online by the next level (10).

But that is not really my point. My point is: even when I hit with three crits (I don't roll that good usually) and all my other attacks, the night hag wasn't going down. My problem isn't that I feel bad because my character went down (that happened often enough before), my problem is my damage output feels pitiful (especially compared to the hag).

The fight started with some good damage by the wizard, as far as I remember the rust hag crit-failed her save and was already badly injured, the night hag was only injured I think. As I could flank the night hag with the monk and was hasted and able to give my hunt prey to them via Warden's Boon I'd say it was not that bad staying in position, because she already was badly injured. Of course, it was risk, but then it should have paid off, because all attacks hit, damage rolls were a little bit above average.

About the GM: I think he is a good GM; he is neither fudging rolls nor is he someone who has fun punishing his players. In the second book my experiences were not that bad. SuperBidi is of course right, I should talk to him. After the session I already told him that I was not too happy about how it played out.


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I just got noticed that the first APs are not too well balanced and I play Age of Ashes and would confirm this notion, relating to my experience as a player in it so far. So I'd advise against it as a starting point.


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Okay, I am sure you heard it all before and I apologize in advance.
But today was another day of a more or less frustrating experience for my (I think quite optimized, free rogue archetype) ranger. Age of Ashes, fighting against a night hag and a rust hag. I rolled three 20s with my attacks (three critial hits), and 17, 18, 16 (MAP attacks, with -2/-4 all hits, but noc crits) or something like that. It's just not really possible to roll much better. I flanked with my monk buddy (he did not hit a lot). But we could not take her down before she took me down. I was even hasted by our wizard. I think we know Pf 2e quite well and a have a lot of experience and understanding of the mechanics. So this was the setup.
It all did not matter. The hag critted me at least with every second attack (she did not miss with a single strike) and her normal damage was around the double of mine.

Allright, this is probably the way it works in Pf 2e, but when you ambush a NPC party (I think around Cl+1) of two opponents with a PC party of five and set it up at least okay, probably not a 100 percent perfect, go down after two rounds (usually the very efficient cleric keeps me alive and working, but this time, there was (only) one round, where he wasn't able to heal me) it feels odd. To be honest, it feels rather frustrating. My AC does not matter (it is the highest possible for a strength focused ranger at this level).

So yes, this was frustrating. I guess it is just not for me then. But hear me out: I want to like it and I want to make it work for me. It just makes me sad, because there's a lot of very nice things in this system and I don't mind failing (well, I probably do). But this time it was not a BBEG encounter, I rolled perfectly, was buffed, had perfect position, used my class feats (e.g. third action to give monk or the gunslinger buddy my Flurry (= Warden's Boon).

Yes we could have improved the setup to a small extent, if we were system masters de luxe, I guess. But we also could have done a lot worse. In the end we survived, but my character never feels like a hero, even if he crits three times. Makes not much sense to me.


If anyone is interested in the build, but wants to optimize a little more: Light Hammers are better in every way for this build (range increment doubled and bludgeoning, same damage; the sweep trait of the hatchet is almost worthless for a ranger (exception: you have double prey, are not using it in conjunction with Shared Prey and the opponents are adjacent).

For me it was just a question of style and the inspiration for the build was "Tracker", the protagonist from "Black Leopard Red Wolf" by Marlon James.


I read the the thread and find interesting arguments for both sides - concerning Twin Takedown.

I'd lean in to the camp that would allow melee weapons with the thrown trait to be thrown; the reason is the wording of other feats that specifically say make a "ranged strike" or a "melee strike", even after specifying what kind of weapons you have to be wielding in the requirements.

Twin Takedown:

Requirements: "You are wielding two melee weapons, each in a different hand."
Text: "(...) Make two Strikes against your hunted prey,(...)"

Penetrating Shot:

Requirements: "You are wielding a ranged weapon."
Text: "(...) Make a single ranged Strike (...)"

Resounding Blow:
Requirements: "You are wielding a melee weapon that deals bludgeoning damage."
Text: " (...) Make a melee Strike. (...)"

There may as well be examples that give credit to the other side of the argument. And maybe it was an oversight, but this is somehow hard to believe, because there are so many instances where the strike is specified and where it is not specified.


Just one question: You wrote:

Level 3
Divine Ally - Weapon
and
Divine Ally - Shield Ally

(You can take Second Ally at level 8)

I wonder why you took Viking Weapon Familiarity at level 4. You already got everything that this feat gives you.

You can't take Viking Vindicator at level 6. Prereq. is level 8


Thanks a lot Captain Morgan (again) and Falco271 for your further suggestions. I will definitely look into all the mentioned archetypes. I had Dual Thrower on the list, but wasn't sure if it wasn't redundant somehow.

@Ed Reppert: That comes very close, if I remember correctly. But in the beginning I had a heavy crossbow and the second class feat was Crossbow Ace which I retrained into Gravity Bow. Attributes are correct as well.


Thanks again, I already changed my build somewhat yesterday and my thoughts on the monster hunter line mirror yours: a +1 to hit is so important in this edition and knowing the weaknesses of an enemy is not bad either (and all without action cost). I threw out Relentless Stalker and took Monster Hunter for it. Level 10 will be Master Monster Hunter - I get another free archetype feat at 10 which will again go to Skill Mastery, so Nature becomes a master skill.

Already thought about taking Warden's Boon for my monk buddy, because fists are agile and he will definitely profit from Hunt Prey + Flurry.
We just should always fight against the same enemy if possible.

I like gravity weapon but it only activates on the first strike and if you don't hit with it, it is wasted, so it is probably a candidate to be swapped out for Warden's Boon. Sadly that does not work: I have to switch it with Blind Fight, as both are have level 8 as a requirement.
I guess I will retrain gravity weapon (2nd level) for monster warden when we hit level 10, which will take some time as we only recently reached level 9.

Planned class feats open for debate:
12 Double Prey
14 Blind Fight (?)
16 Second Sting (?)
18 Impossible Flurry
20 Accurate Flurry (?)

The other question: Do I go on with the rogue archetype after level ten or do I take another dedication? Until now I don't see too much reason to change it, as taking advanced tricks or skill mastery is very good I think.

I think I don't need to be a switch hitter as hatchets work for ranged and melee. 40 feet range is not super great, but were mostly okay it seemed.


Hi Captain Morgan, thanks a lot for your suggestions. Most things you suggested, were already part of my build. (Played books one and two with him, but after a long break GM allowed us to respec or change characters, but I only want minor changes)
But: until now: no pet, no monster hunter
Survey Wildlife was automatic via hunter background.
I took Toughness and Fleet.
Quickdraw did not really work out for me, because for Twin Take Down I always need two weapons in my hands.
Nature is my third best skill.

The build until now:
Class feats are Twin Takedown, Gravity Weapon (via Natural Ambition), Relentless Stalker, Disrupt Prey, Far Shot, Nimble Dodge (via free archetype), Blind Fight, Skillmastery (free archetype), Sneak Attacker (free archetype)

Skill Feats are: Survey Wildlife, Quiet Allies, Terrain Stalker, Foil Senses, Cat Fall, Streetwise, Experienced Tracker,

General Feats: Fleet, Toughness, Swift Sneak

Ancestry Feats: Natural Ambition, Clever Improviser, Incredible Improvisation (almost never needed the last two).

Took no medicine stuff, because three players already did, one of them is the healbot cleric.

Master Skills: Survival & Stealth
Expert Skills: Acrobatics & Nature
Trained: Athletics, Deception, Diplomacy, Society, Thievery.

I also wonder which class feat to take at level 10.


Some things are set, we are currently level 9 and before the third book of the age of ashes campaign. Ulan Dhor is a human ranger from Thuvia whose basic stick is fighting with two hatchets (no animal companion).
We use the free archetype variant, and I chose Rogue.
Hatchets (both +1 striking, one returning) are for throwing and melee and with Far Throw and Hunt Prey active I can throw 40 feet without penalties.
The rest of the party are Healbot Cleric, Caster-Blaster (Wizard), Monk (strangely the meatshield, more or less) and one who might be a gunslinger.
I am interested in general feats, ancestry feats, skill feats, I think I have attributes and class feats covered, but I take suggestions. My main skills are Stealth and Survival (both Master prof.).
Thanks in advance


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I will not say anything about statistics, because enough has been said about that. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to compare the extremes of PF 1 and 2, because that is not what the OP is about. He never said he wants the PF1-thing, where NPCs only hit with a 20, and PCs only not hit rolling a 1 (besides this is more of a "problem" with optimizers in the 10+ level range. In our Pf1 campaign Iron Gods we don't have these extremes). I think and may be wrong of course, he'd like to experience a slightly higher to-hit-chance for the PCs in general.

I play both games and I can relate to the feeling of the OP. I want to like Pf2, because when I read (and still learn) it, it makes much more sense, seems more solid than Pf2. On the other hand, actual play (AoA campaign) felt ok, when with four players and like a death spiral when with three players. Rolls feel so much more important than in Pf1. I think this is basically a good thing, but I also don't like it when I have average dice rolls and don't hit with my good attack(s) when we're fighting against some stupid birds that have higher ACs and to hit than we do.

I think it makes sense that if you fight the real baddies, everything can go wrong and it is really hard to succeed. But lying in the dirt with the dying condition in the first round of combat against some mooks is not what I find terribly entertaining, because I want to contribute.

I am still undecided on the system (loved it when I read it) in actual play, because I need more experience in the system to judge it. I really hope we will improve (as players but also as our player characters).


The intent is clear in this case. The text of the basic crafter's book even refers to page 293 (and thus the level 0 formulas). Still the basic crafter's book has the problem of being much too cheap for containing all the formulas of level 0 adventuring gear, but that is another problem.


See page 293, Table 6-13. It only contains level 0 formulas.


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Box, page 293: the basic crafter's book only contains the level 0 formulas. The items you list are all level 1+ (p.454f.). The chirurgeon refers to the (blank) formula book (p.290).


Thorax Toothlicker wrote:

Is a Level 3 item from that section (Infiltrator Thieve's Tools, in this case) considered "common"?

Trying to navigate the crafting rules after just completing my first Society scenario. Initially I thought I had to buy a Formula Book, but now I'm inclined to think that's more akin to a spellbook for Alchemists.

So my next question is whether I have to buy the Level 3 Formula for the Tools, or just the Basic Crafting Book, or both.

Super late, sorry, but in case anyone else has this problem: The basic crafter's book only contains the common level 0 formulas [EDIT: of the Equipment chapter]. There is no book for higher level formulas. The blank formula book is not needed, it's just handy to have all your formulas in one place (that' how I understand it).


Maybe the investigator was announced to be featured in the APG, I don't know.
But in 1e it was not part of it, as a hybrid class it was only introduced with the Advanced Class Guide.


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I'd rule it that the "unconventional weapon" feat (human ancestry) would give you proficiency with any one uncommon weapon (depending on your proficiencies of course; e.g. you only gain access to an advanced uncommon weapon if your are proficient with all martial weapons)


The Glaive and the Kukri at least are common for gnomes.
I guess one could assume that the Katana is common in Tian Xia.


Very well written. In really enjoyed it. Next time I encounter a statue, I will consider my options.


Impressive work! Very helpful, thank you!


K1 wrote:

Seems only while raging, if you check the higher rank combined with the instinct sheet

https://2e.aonprd.com/Instincts.aspx

Sorry, I don't unterstand this. Is this an answer to the OP or to my question?

I know that the instinct ability works only while raging, and it is unclear if weapon spec. is always active or also only during a rage.

So I want to know if the boni are added up during a rage or if instinct already includes the damage of weapon spec.


Are instinct spec. and weapon spec. cumulative during a rage or does instinct override/include weapon spec.?


Sorry for thread capture, but the messageboards won't let me make my own thread (got cancelled, twice)

Hi there,
I am trying to build a human bard, worshipper of Shelyn who wields a glaive.
I can get trained in the glaive via versatile heritage/ weapon proficiency (general feat).
I will get bardic weapon expertise at 11th level, but only with simple and bard's weapons (longsword, rapier, etc.).

Is there a way to get to expert proficiency in glaive/another or all martial weapons via a general feat, multiclassing or something I have missed out?

Thanks a lot!


Two reach weapons might be overstretching it - especially on a crowded ship during a raid.
Reach weapons are not the answer to all problems, at least not in a typical Pathfinder module, where combat usually takes place in tight spaces.
The OPs original setup sounds more reasonable in this scenario.


They were betrayed by an illusion and you randomly kill them, and you don't even know if they are guilty. Sounds like super chaotic evil to me.
Sorry for this answer, but you asked for it.


@OP: By RAW this works. Some people might argue about not being able to imagine this, but that's their problem. There are more absurd things a character can do in Pathfinder than being fast with a shield. Anyway, their immersion issues are not a problem of the game engine.

Of course, a GM could always rule that only one free action per round is reasonable, but that would clearly be out of line with rest of the system.


@avr: To the Champion of the Faith archetype you might add sth. like: Power +1 when playing with a 25 point-buy


Imho an archer should have: Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot. Don't take a second companion - it's a trap option.


Technically, two-handing a weapon and getting the bonus of a shield is possible with the quick draw feat and a quick draw shield with a one-handed weapon that may be two-handed (e.g. longsword). Of course, AoO will be weaker. Then there are two other ways: shield brace (alas, not for Pathfinder Society as I understand it) and unhindering shield.


@Gray Warden: Unless you can really pull it off. A ranger switch hitter needs "only" Power Attack and Quick Draw for melee, the rest would go into archery. When he gets Point Blank Master online (6+, I'd rather say 10th level is quite early enough), he could retrain the feats. Or stay a not so super optimized switch-hitter.

Apart from that, if in the game world of your GM weather and visibility are a thing, a melee option might come in handy.

For most characters switching between melee and ranged might be doable for the first three or four levels but after that it's usually not worth to keep it up. Specialization is a thing in Pathfinder and Air Walk and Fly are not unheard of.


I don't get what the betrayer feat really does, besides giving the opponent a very circumstantial -2 on initiative. Wouldn't you be able to do all that without the feat?


Grimniir wrote:

How can accuracy be mediocre?

I got WT, GWF...

I guess I wasn't looking correctly at your to hit: It's +22 with PA included, right?

(BAB 11 Str 8 weapon 2, weapon training 2, WF/GWF 2 = +25 -3 PA = +22

+25 to hit is not mediocre, it's good. Especially when your bard's haste (+1 haste) + inspire courage (+3 comptence) come into play. +29/+29/+24/+19 or with PA +26/+26/+21/+16 is really good.


The nodachi is a martial weapon. Still, that does not invalidate your point, Dasrak. A scimitar can be used one or two handed, a big advantage when you suddenly find yourself grappled by a monster with an (usually) incredbly high - or better: ridiculously high - CMD/CMB.

OP: your AC is (not bad but still) too low to really matter. Against low-level enemies you don't need it, because you kill them too fast, against higher CR enemies it's not enough to be of importance. I also think you should go two-handed.

A good indicator (only my experience from play) for Martials is the following: Can you reliably hit your own AC with your first attack? If the answer is yes, either bring it up or use your resources for other things.
Other people say that around level 10, a good AC is 20+level, a very good AC is 25+level and that's presumably the better benchmark. Of course, this may be different at your table.

I'd advise against dazzling display and the like, because at this level fear immunity is quite common - many monsters are outright immune to mind affecting effects. Besides you already have Cornugan Smash, which is way superior to Dazzling Display (because: Action Economy).

Two important things already mentioned in the thread: up your saves and get Gloves of Duelling, ASAP. Your accuracy is slightly above mediocre, same is true for your saves.

EDIT: I hope this does not come across as rude - I don't know your group or your GM, it's all just based on my experience, so take it with a grain of salt.

EDIT II: I should read before I write. You already aim for gloves of dueling and you have a bard for accuracy. He effectively doubles your damage. Be thankful, protect him. So, increase damage ouput (go two-handed!) and improve your saves. All in all the character is already a solid build.


FYI: Cu Mannory/Almuric the Numerian (PDF) in Google Docs, work in progress


I am completely open to another backstory that fits the basic mechanical assumptions:
1: one level of savage technologist
(I feel the vigilante has some issues with accuracy after building one character and comparing it to other level 10 builds (inspired blade swashbuckler1/investigator9, ravener hunter sanctified slayer inquisitor10, swashbuckler10)
2: Human from Taldor
3: Two-handed finessable weapon, getting the most out of Lethal Grace
(I'd love to have a two-weapon user I just don't see it working, accuracy is at least 3 points down per attack, but this is not a point for discussion here)
4: Ancestral Weapon trait
(I know I bore you to pieces now: for accuracy reasons)

I only took the trait "Disgraced Noble" for story reasons. In every case I want one of the campaign traits in the Player's Guide

Still more important: how to play the dual identity with the setup (or your new backstory)


@Isaac Zephyr: Thanks for the input, this is a good idea.

@Dave Justus: What you suggest would lean (as I understand it) towards the idea of three identities: the "public" vigilante who works in the open, more or less; the social identity Almuric the Numerian, a bodyguard (or sth. else) and the real identity Cu Mannory. Cu will lay open his true identity and his plans to exact revenge before the group rather sooner then later.

Or did you have sth. else in mind?

Concerning backstory/motivation:
I think Cu will have enough motivation to work toghether with others because he needs friends/support to achieve his personal goals. On the meta-plane: I am a team player and usually play good guys or neutral guys who lean towards good. Of course I will not hold back my vigilante identity from my fellow adventurers for long, I think that is not even possible. As I understand it from the Player's Guide, the PCs get a chance to dabble in the intrigues of high society. Is this not a wonderful possibility for someone who wants to take on revenge on the aristocratic wirepullers behind the assassination of his family?

If this is not enough in your eyes, do you have some ideas for hooks?


For an upcoming campaign (War for the Crown), I plan to play an avenger vigilante with one level of savage technologist. The (as of now not too well constructed) story goes as this:

As a child and teenager, Cu Mannory, member of the minor noble house Mannory in Oppara (proteges of house Basri) was trained in the use of the Elven Curve Blade (ECB), traditionally used by nobles of house Basri (see Player's Guide WftC).
[in game terms: human bonus feat "Exotic Weapon Proficiency: ECB", trait "Ancestral Weapon: ECB"]

After a series of apparent misfortunes (?) in business and ill-omened performances in noble circles, the fortunes of the family dwindle. Nevertheless, with the help and protection of house Basri, the Mannorys overcome those dire straits, although their standing in the nobility is greatly diminished
[in game terms this translates to the campaign trait "Disgraced Noble", see PG WftC]

When Cu is twelve years old, destiny strikes with a heavy blow: his parents and other important figures of his family are killed by assassins; he and his sister are kidnapped. It is assumed behind closed doors that business rivals house Talbot are at the bottom of the attack. Cu and his sister Virinia are sold to slavers by the assassins instead of killed (they fetch a good price as they are both pretty and healthy). The slavers sell the sister after having her way with her first. Cu is sold to agents of the Technic League near the border to Galt. They travel north but are surprised by a raiding party of the Blood Gars tribe. Cu is able to flee (in doing so snatching a firearm) and survive some weeks in the wilderness of southern Numeria. His training begins (+ story...)
[in game terms: class level: barbarian/savage technologist]

After some years, he feels ready to begin his revenge and travels back to Oppara, Taldor. He calls himself Almuric, finds out that house Mannory still exists, though only as a shadow of its former self: his grandmother, a mentally retared cousin, an old cook, and a servant (who will later become his partner in crime). He does not want to endanger his relatives, so he only reveals himself to the butler. Unbeknown to his relatives, he takes up a small room in the vast but run-down mansion.
Before he can start to investigate the assassination and really start his revenge mission, he takes up some jobs to earn money and build up a small reputation as Almuric the Numerian, bodyguard (or something else, not sure yet).

Whatever the reason, something earned him the attention of Lady Martella Lotheed (Maybe she knows more than meets the eye?) and the campaign starts.

Yes, the story has some striking similarities with "The Count of Monte Christo".

QUESTION: I still do not know how I should handle the dual identity stuff. For I currently see three identities:

1. Cu Mannory, assumed dead (real)
2. Almuric the Numerian (social)
3. the Vigilante identity - he will be an avenger with lethal grace and signature weapon for the elven curve blade, perhaps with the wild soul/falconite archetype

Or would it be enough if "Cu Mannory" were his vigilante identity? How would you do/play it?

As for his patron deity, I think Calistria is quite fitting.

Mechanics:

We always have a 25-point-buy: his stats will be Str 14, Dex 16+2, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
Planned feats up to level 10:
1 Extra Rage, Prof. ECB (HB), 3 Power Attack, 5 Great Fortitude, 7 Leadership (the Butler, perhaps as Court Fool Bard to buff accuracy of the party, good disguise to be able to help both identities, SL should be ok with that), 9 Deceitful (boni to bluff and disguise)

Planned Social Talents up to level 10:
2 Social Grace, 4 Companion to the Lonely (not sure yet, but fits with patron deity), 6 Mockingbird, 8 Many Guises, 10 Ancestral Enlightenment

Planned Vigilante Talents up to level 10:
3 Lethal Grace, 5 Signature Weapon, 7 Steely Resolve, 9 Cunning Feint, 11 ?, 13 Mad Rush
This is still open to debate, especially the order, of course if I take Wild Soul/Falconite only 3 and 5 will stay albeit at other positions.

Skills are mainly for intrigue; then of course Perception, Stealth, Acrobatics, maybe some points in Climb, minimum 1 point for the knowledge class skills to get sth. out of Ancestral Enlightenment

I will have other questions, but for now this is all.

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