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1,807 posts. 9 reviews. No lists. No wishlists.


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kestral287 wrote:
But if you want to shoot twenty-five missiles at a time, then the answer to "how do we balance this" is "make them wait about five more levels".

But you're only seeing balance as a matter of levels and CRs. There's a lot more to the system than that, and because there are more factors, the DM has the ability to allow things outside of the rules.

The DM can alter the action economy, increase the monetary cost, include the possibility of incurring a negative status effect, all sorts of things OTHER than just telling a player to suck it up and wait five levels.

As an advocate of rule zero, I often have to assert that Pathfinder (and games like it), outside of organized play, is meant to be a cooperative endeavor where the DM and players both contribute to a narrative. Balance is an illusion and blah blah gaming philosophy blah blah...

kestral287 wrote:

... Right, so I don't think you're understanding what I'm asking.

How many missiles does he want to fire?

"3-5 wands" doesn't tell us much, because that can mean a huge selection between three and twenty-five missiles per volley.

So! How many missiles (not spells, the actual missiles) does your player want to fire with each shot?

Everything regarding balance depends on the answer to that question. Without it we're spitting into the breeze.

I think you are actually missing the point of the question: the number of missiles doesn't matter in the concept. The concept is to activate a number of wands instead of just one. I don't think numbers are exactly relevant, just something that the DM can use as a benchmark for trade-offs to make it balanced and justifiable without trivializing the game.

Firing off three CL 9 wands of magic missile at one time (via the Rod of Many Wands) will get you 15 missiles at 1d4+1 each, but will consume a total of 9 wand charges (three from each wand). Each of these wands will cost 3375 gp. You would get about 16 uses out of the Rod of Many Wands with three of these CL 9 wands loaded in it (because 50/3 is 16.67). Each use would thus cost roughly 600gp, not factoring the cost of the Rod since it is a permanent item and the wands are like ammo or fuel.

Whether or not that option is fair in the eyes of the OP, I can't say.

Personally, I think it's the easiest, because it already exists. To scale it back a bit more could be as simple as increasing the number of charges drained.

I always find it funny that when people want to try to do something to gain an advantage, there is a mindset of either "this will break the game, don't do it," or "you can do it, but it's going to be so not worth your while that you won't want to do it anyway." I'm just making a general observation there. Obviously if every GM caved to every player's every whim then everything would be pointless and the system would have no meaning. But there are ways to reward player creativity without making it break the game.

Yes, to fire 3-4 wands at once you'd have to break action economy, but you can patch that buy making the trade-off something different. Two people have already pointed out the Rod of Many Wands from 3.5. That costs money, on top of expending a max of 9 wand charges for casting 3 spells at once (which equates to money).

You could also make it so that you can fire off three wands at once, but doing so pulls an abnormal amount of the caster's essence and they are staggered for one round after, or impose a condition that can be cured by using an action. The benefit is having a huge damage spike, but leaving you vulnerable. Creativity should be met with creativity.

OP, I would recommend making the changes yourself if you want to do this. I personally altered several races for my own campaign setting, adding to some and removing a few things from others for flavor. I even have regional "subspecies" based on the lifestyles and environments. But *I* made those changes and they are what they are. I don't have four players coming to me wanting to okay four sets of changes and keeping track of it. You will be better in the long run if you make the changes you want to see.

Overall, I think there is a lot of overemphasis on the numeric values of a race and far less importance placed on the cultural values of that race.

My group borrows a concept from 3.5's Eberron called action points, but we do them quite differently.

I give my players 3 action points per gaming session. They are worth 1d6 added to any d20 roll, among a few other potential uses (like stabilizing at negative HP or adding a small bonus to spell DCs). I also tell them that the riskier and more awesome the narrative is when they use these points, the more lenient I am with the outcome. They get a bonus 1d6 on the effort, and if they use it for something that helps make the game fun, then I generally let it happen.

I have tried this without action points, but the idea of having a finite resource that is limited, but not too precious (like hero points) seems to have increased the risk taking. I am considering changing the 1d6 to a flat +4, but we haven't played in months.

I don't know how you feel about it, but technically, if an animal is able to leap great distances, then their bodies have to be strong enough to withstand the forces that exerts on them.

If they can attain any given height on their own power, then they can withstand the landing as well. Been working on my own Dragoon class (as it seems 9.9*10^n+1 people have done and are doing). That was one of the main issues I had with it. I just did away with the fall damage and mitigation. What good does it do to jump anyway when flight is so easily attained mid-game and you can't bull rush people off cliffs (because you have to end movement in a safe, empty square)?

EDIT: I also borrowed heavily from the ninja. I actually built a ninja that used a lance and asked the DM to make a couple of houserules to make the dragoon concept work, and that's where I started building from.

Good luck with your class design!

Saldiven wrote:
Paul Migaj wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
Paul Migaj wrote:

For the next game:
Going to try combat with grid-less maps. Same scale, with round templates, and no more talk of corners of squares and diagonals. It should be more elegant and immersive.
Out of curiosity, will you use a tape measure or ruler for movement, then templates or something to determine if you're in threat range, etc?

For movement: Eyeball it when it doesn't matter, tape measure for when it does.

For threat: For when it's not obvious visually, I plan on using a transparent plastic ruler to check the distance between the bases of figures. (Less than 1", less than 2", etc.)

Speaking as a veteran table top wargamer of some 20-odd years, you'll find that eyeballing will be insufficient in a vast majority of occasions. Players will (intentionally or not) make poor eyeball movements all the time that end up affecting the game. I would suggest, based on my experience of playing such games (Warhammer 40K, WHFB, Mordheim, Infinity, Dark Age, WM/H, Bolt Action, etc.) that you do your best to keep measuring consistent to avoid contention amongst players.

Another game I have played using [insert your favorite plastic brick building system here] has an unmarked playing field and many players use a set up like the one in this thread on one of the forums pertaining to said game. It could prove immensely useful.

Raisse wrote:

The primary reason I would want to take this feat as a player is for the ludicrous ability to play up a crazy wizard that does math problems in the middle of battle (during other players' turns) and then shouts that I've solved the formula on my turn and cast a magicked up spell.

Honestly, the key to making this feat playable is an agreement between player and GM not to abuse it, and working on dice rolling/math before your turn comes up.


I would just tell the player that wants to use this feat (that looks freaking awesome) that if s/he abuses it, becomes a crutch for the other players, or begins to trivialize encounters regularly, that I will impose a drawback on the feat's use. Large Int/Wis/Cha damage or something, no save.

If you set that kind of stuff up prior to including the feat, you shouldn't have a problem.

RumpinRufus wrote:

Casting spells as an AoO is a bad idea for a lot of reasons, IMO.

Firstly is the wizard taking Combat Reflexes, and then declaring in combat that he suddenly considers the party to be his enemies. As they move past him, he now gets to cast 5 spells/round.

Second is that it weirdly incentivizes casters to keep Long Arm active, so they can cast a spell at anyone who tries to melee them.

Additionally, usually someone can only move 120 feet per round maximum, but then if people provoke from them they can now move faster, like 150 feet (or 180 if they have Combat Reflexes and two people provoke)? It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think combat maneuvers like Grapple make sense as AoOs. Other types of actions, not so much, both for balance and for verisimilitude. If you think it's fun, then go for it, but expect a lot of wonky results, especially if people are actively trying to game it.

Obviously some discretion would have to be used. Perhaps a simple expansion of options rather than the over simplified "standard or move" might be more elegant. True casting several spells a round with combat reflexes might get crazy, and movement might need to be a little more restricted, but I think that's just a matter of being more precise (and thus less CONCISE) in wording.

That said, casting a quickened spell would certainly seem to hold within the framework of this houserule's logic. Still mulling it over.

EDIT: I'm thinking that where this may liven up low-level play, it will multiply problems at higher levels. That's just a thought, and I'm not sure how that would help with refining the houserule.

Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

0th level spells may be case 3+casting mod times per day each. This came about because of player abuse.

Prestidigitation has been split into several new spells. This came about because of the same player's abuse.

I would be curious to know how the player "abused" those cantrips/orisons, if it's something other than finding obnoxious and inappropriate times to use them (like continually turning people's hair different colors for no reason).

An interesting concept. This seems like it might inject some chess-like strategy into combat. At first blush this sounds like a fun thing to try, even if it produces some problems later on.

I am withholding further commentary for now, because I have classes going on and a short break, but I'm keeping an eye on this.


Magus for the four-armed melee combat...
Oracle for an alien mystic...

It is super-strange to me that there is so much love for the gunslinger in here. I have scarcely been around for several months, but the atmosphere here has really changed. O_O;

Marroar Gellantara wrote:

Human level 10, 22 dex, 10 ranks, stealthy, skill focus, and skill mastery

7 dex + 10 ranks + 3 class + 10 feats = +30

Take 10 + Hellcat stealth means you can always take a 30.

Your math is off. A 22 Dex will get you a +6 modifier.

I wouldn't expect it much more difficult to attain a somewhat similar number (+/-5) with Perception, and without the -10 imposed by the feat. So... meh.

Step 1: Grab a two-handed weapon.
Step 2: Take power attack.
Step 3: ?????????
Step 4: Profit... ;)

Seriously, though, the pain of Samurai Jack's cancellation is probably right up there with Firefly. Not quite that high, but up there.

I think the Forest Shadow *will* be a popular mini. "Used by many?" Ehhh... not when you make them rare.

Anyway, I'm still looking forward to a kasatha mini. :D No rush, no pressure. I'll probably never get to play one anyway.

Mikaze, I feel for you.

On the one hand, from a world building and moralistic standpoint, I agree with you. Having an entire race of creatures who are "supposed to be evil" even if there are token exceptions removes entire spectrums of character options as far as fluff goes. Your race choice, at some point, will become your personality; there will be no separating the two. Which by the way, seems to be the reason some of the Paizo staffers have a dislike of dwarves. Despite having no artificial limitations on their alignment, there appears to be only one kind of dwarf that people play: the Scotch-Irish drunkard with a zest for battle and showmanship, perhaps with a Napoleon complex (oversimplification for illustrative purposes).

On the other hand, the system itself is built around objective alignment, so naturally the world the company builds for it is going to be black or white about these sorts of things. :/ That's just how it is.

Personally, I'd like to see you write your own setting. Weren't you the one who came up with the demi-goddess (Empyreal Lord/Lady?) that pretended to be a bad guy to lead people to heroic destinies? I fricken' loved that.

Matrix Dragon wrote:
Foghammer wrote:
Pupsocket wrote:
Foghammer wrote:

Dodging Panache is strange. The [not!]5-foot step plus bonus to AC make it great for setting up flanking because you keep your actual 5-foot step, but as written, it seems like you HAVE to move to get the AC bonus. If you're flanking already, this seems like not such a great tactical option.
It's great for breaking full attacks.

That is actually a pretty awesome use I hadn't considered, but I am looking at it from the standpoint of someone who [sadly] rarely plays beyond 8th level. Full attacks don't come up too often in our games, but that is an excellent point.

How does that interact with the Step Up feat line, I wonder. It's NOT a 5-foot step, so it wouldn't let them follow, right?

The problem is that the person doing the full attack can simply choose to use a 5-foot step to follow the swashbuckler and then continue the full attack. Step Up isn't necessary.

Well, I guess in order to get it to work, the swashbuckler has to set things up so that the enemy always has to use a 5-foot step in order to even start the full attack. So I guess a smart player could do some fun things here.

Ah... derp. That's true. You would have to get your swashbuckler in, attack, and then when possible, use your normal 5-ft step to back off, then the enemy 5-foots back into melee range, attacks, and then you dodge away out of reach. That's not really a "rinse-repeat" tactic, but it could be useful if you can think to set it up.

Pupsocket wrote:
Foghammer wrote:

Dodging Panache is strange. The [not!]5-foot step plus bonus to AC make it great for setting up flanking because you keep your actual 5-foot step, but as written, it seems like you HAVE to move to get the AC bonus. If you're flanking already, this seems like not such a great tactical option.
It's great for breaking full attacks.

That is actually a pretty awesome use I hadn't considered, but I am looking at it from the standpoint of someone who [sadly] rarely plays beyond 8th level. Full attacks don't come up too often in our games, but that is an excellent point.

How does that interact with the Step Up feat line, I wonder. It's NOT a 5-foot step, so it wouldn't let them follow, right?

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Foghammer wrote:
And the whole thing about just switching it back to Sneak Attack instead of trying to make Studied Combat work just came across as "I'm so close to done I don't care." Rude, in other words.

It was not being rude. It was being honest. I have a list of options. Right now I am looking at data and finding the best way to get the investigator where he needs to be.

Right now I am absorbing and considering positions and data. My answers will absolutely be "this is how it is" and "this is how I think it should be" until I get all the information that I need to make a definitive choice.

I emphasized a key part of my post. I'm quite sure you didn't intend to be rude. I wasn't trying to either. I was voicing what I feel is a legitimate concern about the approach being taken.

I wasn't clear and I apologize. My problem really lies with the fact that while you have given perfectly acceptable answers, they are offered without explanation. Some might call it a sense of entitlement, but I don't feel like Paizo OWES me anything, I just expect that when someone HAS an answer, they back it up with a reason other than just "because that's what I think." I would expect that of anyone posting feedback.

You posted three options you were looking at for revisions while people commented back and forth over the particulars, but never gave reasoning for why those were the only options.

I am sorry if my opinion on Paizo's design transparency comes across as hostile. I'm not trying to make trouble, it just seems like a very simple thing to do and the degree of backlash here is highly discouraging.

EDIT: And things I put in "" are not intended to be direct quotes; they just reflecting my perceptions.

Improvements made to the Swashbuckler from Round 1, according to Foghammer:

  • Weapon Finesse at level 1, counts as feat.
  • Parry and Riposte are slightly improved, enough that I'm okay with it.
  • Charmed Life > Bravery (but not enough).

    Overall, the class is better, but having put one together at level 1 and gone through some hypothetical scenarios, it lacks a certain potency that is hard to quantify, even the subsequent few levels. Damage notwithstanding (because I feel like that is beating a dead horse), I feel like there are a lot of abilities coming out that allow character to add a d6 to certain rolls using a pool. That's okay here or there, but it's come to the point that I've recognized it as a trend. Am I off-the-mark there? Perception is reality, right?

    Derring-do just is kind of meh to me. My group carried action points over from 3.5 though, so that colors my perception a lot.

    Dodging Panache is strange. The [not!]5-foot step plus bonus to AC make it great for setting up flanking because you keep your actual 5-foot step, but as written, it seems like you HAVE to move to get the AC bonus. If you're flanking already, this seems like not such a great tactical option.

    The size penalty on the parry ALMOST makes sense; bigger, heavier weapons are harder to deflect. Okay, I can get the logic. But I'm in the camp of keeping martial characters in roughly the same league as casters AND the cult of the rule of cool, so penalties like this become cumbersome and serve only to steal away potential badassery from the class.

    Precise Strike is great except that it precludes the off-hand pistol or main-gauche, which is off-putting. Initiative isn't bad. Kip-up and Menacing Swordplay are meh, but I don't care because the other two deeds at 3rd level are what make it.

    One thing I often see is people trying to make a particular class fill a niche that it ALMOST covers, but can't quite do so because of design choices. People want to make a character with magical "powered armor," they go synthesist summoner. People want to make an Avatar style martial artist, they do MoMS monk and maybe multiclass sorcerer or wizard. I feel like the swashbuckler could, in the long run, cover a wide range of roles, except that it feels to me like everyone thinks it needs to be shoehorned into one iconic image (like the Inigo Montoya, the Sinbad, the Count of Monte Cristo, or the Musketeer; just my perceptions). That, to me, is poor design philosophy.

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    I'm really concerned about the fact that people in the thread have pointed out VERY specific reasons why Studied Strike is flavorful but bad and yet despite these VERY specific arguments, Stephen seems to only counter with "this is how it is" or "this is how I think it should be" kind of comments. And the whole thing about just switching it back to Sneak Attack instead of trying to make Studied Combat work just came across as "I'm so close to done I don't care." Rude, in other words.

    It's great that the devs are getting so involved in the forum aspect, but I will never understand the [apparent] need to guard their thought processes or insights.

    Studied Combat is a fantastic idea. (Is there an echo in here?) Limiting it to once per 24 hours makes absolutely zero sense, for any reason I can think of. First of all, it's not a magical ability, so you can't fluff that away as "the investigator is out of magical studying ability." Studying a target once, damaging it, and then reassessing them after the fact to see what would be the next most preferable target is completely reasonable. Secondly, the bonus damage added by Studied Strike will never amount to anything significant if you can only use it ONCE PER ENEMY. Great, you can probably wipe out mooks faster, if you take the time to study them.

    Honestly, truly, I respect the design team, but sometimes their stubbornness on leaving things a certain way in spite of overwhelming amounts of creative discussion 'just because' is really hard to swallow.

    Googleshng wrote:
    Superior Feint is still worthless unless you're partnered up with a rogue/ninja and want to waste your whole turn setting them up... but even then, you're already setting them up with flanking. I suppose lowering their touch AC might also help certain party members, but I can't see it being a bigger help than you just attacking.

    Good point, and that in addition to the point I made, this does really cheapen feinting as an option.

    Also, it just occurred to me how metagamey feinting is. Obviously you're not going to waste precious action economy on an enemy that the player knows out of character isn't going to be affected by it? It shouldn't be metagamey, but I feel like it is. I guess a reasonable DM would work out a way for the player to know if it was a tactic his character would consider (and the *character* should know when to at least consider using a particular skill he has).

    Pretty much all of Googleshng's post is spot on. It verbalized my complex feelings about the class much more eloquently than I did with my abstract remarks above and gave me other things to consider as well.

    Feinting may be great for rogues to get that coveted "easy-to-hit" and subject to sneak attack target, but lots of folks around here (who play much higher level campaigns than me, I have to admit) say that the higher you go, the bigger the foes are. Larger targets almost always have smaller Dex scores.

    I'm not in the party with the Dex-to-Damage folks, but it would be nice for Dex-based character builds to have something going for them late game other than high touch ACs and decent initiative mods. The Swashbuckler does have some of the most interesting combat mechanics in the game so far, but it still feels like it's going to fall short. It looks much better now, but still needs polish. I'm rolling one up for testing, but I'm not sure if or when it will happen with finals going on.

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    Is there a projected price point for the PDF?

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    Also would like to see the whole Dervish Dance issue surrounding Swashbuckler (and seemingly every dex-based melee character that will ever exist) addressed. Gettin' real tired of the concept that only rapiers and scimitars are fit to be used without being AM MUSCLEHEAD (no offense to AM BARBARIAN and his kin).

    mdt wrote:

    Yeah, Kasatha get four attacks at level 1, and can't hit with any of them except the primary, maybe. If they take MWF, they are maybe able to hit, if they keep the off-hand weapons light (rapier and 3 daggers).

    Iteratives at 6 work just like TWF always does, it add's one primary attack at -5. That's it.

    MWF counts as TWF, so you can take ITWF if you have MWF. It adds one off-hand attack. Not 3.

    So really all the Kasatha get are 2 additional off-hand attacks at first level when multiweapon fighting. Where it get's wonky is theoertically they could weild two two-handed weapons and TWF. Except there are no rules for that as far as what the penalty is.


    mdt and BlackBloodTroll (I think) are the two most on target here.

    I find it odd that, considering the amount of discussion about how two-handed fighting is in every way superior to dual-wielding damage output, that anyone would really bat an eyelash at this. There also seems to be a large group of people who believe that Sneak Attack is not a good class ability (drawing from the playtest forums) so I also find it odd that Sneak Attack is used as a point of contention. Rogue is generally considered a very underpowered class, so would the addition of two attacks per round drag it out of the pit so to speak?

    I think there is a lot of knee jerk "OMG WTF" reactions to Multiweapon Fighting.

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    It was a long time after my group and myself moved away from home and started playing on our own that we realized this. Years; in fact, just in the past several months.

    Get this: Our first DM had it so that a Nat 1 on an attack roll was a fumble and required a DC 15 Reflex save or you threw your weapon (random direction, a number of squares equal to some unknown function), which not only ended your turn, but more often than not got the attacker and his allies seriously injured...

    ...uphill in the snow both ways and whatnot...

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    I'm so deep in Abraham Spalding's corner I... That sounds awkward. I'll stop there.

    "Blasting" casters are not popular builds and it's a niche that no class seems to be designed for. Bloodrager could be that caster, even with only 4 spell levels. Since they do not gain Spell Combat and probably won't do well with metamagic feats (getting only 4 spell levels, Quickened Spell will probably never help them), they have to choose each round between attacking or spell casting. Leave the option for buffs (you pick your own spells known, after all), but make options for stacking blast damage on spells like burning hands or lightning bolt while bloodraging.

    How can anyone argue against this concept with the SITH analogy? It's PERFECT.

    I really hope the devs notice the very convincing arguments Spalding has made.

    DeathQuaker wrote:
    The berserk rage has also been described as a trance you put yourself into to give yourself power, so maybe that could inspire some concepts, even if we tend to think of as trances as a calm thing.

    Professor X seems to agree; he says that "...true focus lies somewhere between rage and serenity."

    And who wants to argue with Professor X?

    Off the wall idea: Ranger and Druid are both too nature-y and well-rounded to try and combine. The Ranger is heavily front-loaded with abilities, and the Druid is capable of so much (wildshaping for melee, 9th level spells, a respectable skill set and number of class skills) that the two of them just don't mesh well. They are complementary, of course, but trying to hybridize them isn't going to give you anything new or even just unique.

    And there seems to be a consensus that the Ranger isn't visible in the Hunter at all.

    So how about trying to combine the druid with something else entirely? Inquisitor seems to be a popular one. Magus might be good.

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    Seeker of skybreak wrote:
    Honestly though the more I think about it the Ranger is the hunter and this class feels forced. Like they wanted a "magus" for the divine nature types. This class needs a new name and direction all together to fill a theme neither the druid or ranger already does. My 2 copper


    Brainstorming (or Keyboard Diarrhea):
    What if this class was like a hybrid of the magus/arcane archer but with druid/ranger spells, an animal companion (full or ranger advancement [/shrug]), and limited wildshape? I would call it something other than Hunter at that point...

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    Partly On-Topic(?): I have never understood the point of limiting finesse to what it is currently limited to. Obviously rapiers are more agile than an arming sword or a bastard sword, but I think just about any weapon can benefit as much from fine-tuned application of force over sheer brute strength if a warrior makes it a point to master such a style of fighting. I would argue that it's easier to list weapons that couldn't be used with finesse than to try and pin down 'appropriate' weapons.

    Also, I like this class, but it does feel a little off. This thread has given me a lot of things to reconsider.

    The slayer, thus far, is my favorite, and the only one I see that I can't comment on (beyond what's already been changed). I kind of agree that it needs more skill points, but that's a smallish issue compared to the problems I have with the Hunter.

    I have to be completely negative here, but I hope to come across as logical and objective and not just whiny.

    "Hunters can adapt their tactics to many kinds of opponents and cherish their highly trained animal companions. As a team, the hunter and her companion can react to danger with incredible speed, making them excellent scouts, explorers, and saboteurs."

    Emphasis mine. Sounds like they need more skill points.

    Overall, I don't like it. I like the concept but to be blunt, I don't think this class executes anything it was set out to do. The ranger side loses BAB, HD, and skill points in addition to combat styles, while the druid side loses spellcasting, wild shape, and that beautiful Will save.

    Animal aspect might make up for losing the good Will save. Teamwork feats don't make up for much either. Even the two of them together leave A LOT to be desired... like... I know Paizo has given their stance on having some sub-par options, but I hope that philosophy doesn't hold up in this particular case.

    I would recommend drawing more from the Ranger and less from the Druid. things I would keep are the Ranger's BAB and skills and the Druid's 1st level animal companion. Spellcasting should be reduced. A Hunter sounds far less mystical than a Ranger.

    Pipe kitsune are Japanese. I learned about them from XXXHOLIC years ago.

    Some people refuse to make active efforts to understand other people, Adamantine Dragon. It's not your fault. EDIT: Well, in the time it took me to write a reply, that part of the discussion went from uncivil to something else. :/

    What is the rogue's intelligence score? Is the character capable of the introspection required to know that what he's doing is inherently evil*?

    (*And not very smart, since he could have picked their brains for information or bargained with them for whatever they might know, maybe even offer them jobs as part of "reforming" them under the good party.)

    If he has a lower Intelligence, then this act would probably fall towards a more "I'm just being pragmatic" approach, even if it's not "correct."

    If he has a higher Intelligence, and his character would have thought it through more, then it was either an act of boredom (lack of respect for life) or paranoia. In either case, it isn't justified.

    Of course, as others have stated, I wouldn't swing the alignment straight away. It might have been on the whim of the player, but ultimately you need to get the player to really consider the circumstances and explain themselves. If the answer is shallow, treat it accordingly. If the answer is deeper, then you probably will have something more to work with.

    Set wrote:

    I'd be more interested in seeing a mage that manipulates space and spatial relationships. Moving people around the board like chess-pieces, and one pill makes you larger, and one pill makes you small.

    These spaces cost twice as much to cross for you, but only half as much to cross for me, making your attempts to flee futile, as I can walk as fast as you can run... (Material Component; Hockey Mask)

    Stuff like this and the post about the extra-spacial "time out box" make my head hurt, but I love it. I would pay pretty good money for a set of abilities like this in template form (to add to NPCs/monsters).

    I, too, feel that "mindless" is too extreme. By the same token that other material should never say things like "this material is unbreakable" or "this ability can never be suppressed" because it corners expansion. By saying that any creature with any degree of autonomy, method of locomotion, and biological needs is totally mindless is too severe. It's already been stated that there is a much wider range of consciousness than the game system accounts for. In most instances, I would treat creatures that are currently considered "mindless" to be either Int 0 or 1 and tack on a trait to either one that essentially states the kinds of functions it is capable of performing, and a caveat about Int 0 not being totally vegetated.

    Zombie intelligence should be based on the animating force, and then to what degree that force affects the corpse. A disease-based zombie should have an Int score that decreases as it decomposes (minimum 0, with the aforementioned trait). A magically created zombie should have an Int score that increases as it ages (to a predetermined cap, probably 3 or so, also with the aforementioned trait).

    This is actually begging to be picked up by a 3rd party publisher. Hope someone's taking notes.

    Neo2151 wrote:
    Izar Talon wrote:
    (For example, was a concept such as "master of whip fighting" REALLY so prevalent that it deserved an entire 10 level PrC? No, but such a thing could easily warrant an Archetype with just a few variant class abilties.)

    Really want to play "devil's advocate" with this argument:

    Okay, so which class gets the "Whip guy" archetype? The Fighter, the Rogue, or the Bard?
    And now that you've chosen which one gets it, that means it's unavailable to the other classes that could otherwise make that character (ie: if it's a Bard archetype, then how do you make the Rogue version? The answer - you can't.)
    Prestige classing was a way to give an interesting option to anyone who could qualify rather than hog-tying unique roles to specific classes.

    And then you have to wait until somewhere around 5th to 7th level to start doing what your character concept is supposed to be all about. Different strokes for different folks; while I understand your position, I see the merit in both methods, and I prefer archetypes even though I lament certain options being limited (like archer fighters being the only archetype to get ranged combat maneuvers [sorry rangers]). It gives me better options at lower levels, which is where most of my games take place.

    What we need are more archetypes that cover multiple classes like the Scroll Scholar. It would be harder to pull off, but I think that the reward for that work would be well worth it. It won't replace the prestige class, but it would definitely help alleviate the issue you pointed out.

    Here's a wacky idea: why not have a set of non-base classes, non-prestige classes, non-archetypes -- maybe 5 or 10 levels each, depending on how many they need -- that have no requirements or affiliations. They are just highly specialized (but balanced, possibly with calculated weaknesses) around a type of weapon, a specific combat tactic, or what-have-you?

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    It's already been said, but I'm going to come out of semi-retirement to say it again: Any DM of mature outlook and sound mind will not outright ban 3pp for no reason. I have always told my players that 3pp will be judged on a case-by-case basis, and if anything was off-limits, there were reasons given for it before character creation started. Also, anything by Kobold Press/Open Design is fair game, because that is the highest quality of third-party player material I have had the pleasure of spending my money on. Anyone turns their nose up at that material has a hole in his head, I reckon.

    Third-party material under Paizo's reign is infinitely better than it was with WotC's. Maybe I'm completely oblivious, but it seems to me that there is little to no 4e-support from 3pp, but a glut of 3pp working with Pathfinder rules. That's not edition warring, that's a personal observation. I have no hate for 4e, I just put all of my money into one game, and Pathfinder delivers what I want.

    Also note that in 3.5 you only got a new feat every 3rd level, and half of a Fighter's levels were dead levels. There is so much more to Pathfinder than there was to 3.5. I loved 3.5, and that's why I latched on to Pathfinder as support for 3.5 crumbled away beneath my feet (woo, dramatic metaphor!). It not only offered me a way to stay with the rules I loved, but it made them better (obviously debatable with some of you, and I'm not interested in that discussion), and gave my characters even MORE options.

    I don't know... I cannot see anything I sympathize with in the OP. I love Paizo, I love their business model, I love the work they do, and I love the way they handle the market. They are like the royal family of tabletop RPGs; they have class, dignity, and poise, and that's the vibe I get from reading any interaction 3pp publicly discuss having with them. Oh, and they allow a lot, and I mean A LOT of their content to be posted online FOR FREE. How many other games of this size and scale can you play for free? I'm sure there are others, but how many?

    A [primarily dwarf racial class?] "necromancer" class that is based solely on raising their ancestors' spirits and not just defiling the corpses of random creatures they happen to be near to. No alignment restrictions, but perhaps options based around alignment (like the cleric).

    Vadskye wrote:
    All magic weapons can be shut down by antimagic or dispel suppression; that's not a downside that should be included in the price estimation.

    This is 99% correct in that magic item properties are shut down, but in this case, the weapon would literally cease to be a weapon at all in the case of anti-magic. THAT, I feel should be considered, even if lightly.

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    Oi, Mikaze. Saw this pop up on my Facebook feed and thought of you.


    Awesome! Thanks, OSW! That aasimar variant DID NOT disappoint! :D

    Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
    @Foghammer: I know you were interested in a tougher, magusesque witch - here's a link to the Genius Guide to the Hellion. My own similar concept is still being hammered out...

    Is it too soon to pester you for that aasimar racial archetype for the gauntlet witch?

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    kevin_video wrote:
    It says in the description: "New archetypes like the mad dog barbarian or carnivalist rogue to help classes that haven’t traditionally used animals work with their bestial allies, as well as tips on how every class can employ animals.". If a gunslinger doesn't have the ability to have an animal companion as well, then this constitutes as false advertising.

    Actually it doesn't. There are plenty of ways to employ animals that do not require them to be class features. A gunslinger can buy and use a horse same as anyone else. That's "employing" an animal.

    Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
    @Foghammer: I know you were interested in a tougher, magusesque witch - here's a link to the Genius Guide to the Hellion. My own similar concept is still being hammered out...

    I'll have to check this out, especially if I get snowed/iced in tomorrow. Thanks! And keep that iron in the fire. :)

    Dotting for future reference!

    Lucent wrote:
    Foghammer wrote:
    I don't think half-lycanthropes can exist because lycanthrope is a curse, not a bloodline. How is it that NO ONE ELSE has said this yet?

    Vampirism isn't a bloodline either. In fact it even states in Blood of the Night that their organs are useless and dead and they do not reproduce biologically. Some dhampir probably get the "Blade" treatment, where they are created when a vampire feeds on a pregnant woman. Also magic, likely.

    Were-creature blooded races would make sense in the same vein. Pregnant woman bitten by lycanthrope. Child partially infected. Half-curses, weird magic gone awry, sunspots, fickle whims of capricious Elder Gods, rule of cool, etc.

    Fair enough. I was looking at half-lycans in a vacuum, outside of the discussion of dhampir and unintentionally ignoring half of the conversation.

    Looking at it in more detail now, as I often do when I'm corrected, I am surprised that I never noticed that vampirism isn't a condition that applies a template, it just is a template applied under certain circumstances. Lycanthrope, on the other hand, is curable. It is interesting just how the vampire template works: create spawn raises the victim from the dead, then changes the creature type to undead (augmented)... so it kills them again, kind of. The interesting thing about this is that casting resurrection on a vampire seems as if it would restore the vampire, not the being it was before the template, because resurrection does not remove templates, and the template is added to living creatures, so it appears to be recursive. A resurrected vampire loses its undead status and comes back to life, but then immediately becomes an undead again as the template kicks in...

    Am I missing something, or is that right?

    I don't think half-lycanthropes can exist because lycanthrope is a curse, not a bloodline. How is it that NO ONE ELSE has said this yet? I'm always late on this sort of thing.

    As for the people saying things that seems like they believe that vampires can't be PCs in a normal game: If you're the DM and you put an NPC vampire in the mix, then you're making it a possibility and you need to be ready to deal with it. I may be alone on this, but I think most people would rather have a character die a heroic death fighting that vampire than to be turned and then the DM ask for the character sheet. That would insult me. "You're not adult enough to handle this and I know it, so you can't play that character."

    Same goes for lycanthrope. The character only becomes a mass murdering beast under certain circumstances. It's not Instant NPC-ville.

    If you're assailing your players with these monsters and not allowing them to roleplay their character's journey through the afflictions they present, whether they embrace it or try to get rid of it... I don't know what that makes you, but it doesn't have any positive connotations in my book.

    Not excited about the vampire stuff here but I do hope a lycanthrope players' guide is in the talks.

    My biggest problem with wordcasting was that there's no way to replicate light which is a 0 level spell, even as a 1st or 2nd level wordspell.

    I really want to play a wordcaster who adds illumination effects to all of his force spells (magic missile, shield, wall of force, etc), but that's just not going to happen. :(

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