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In light of the CM/D discussion currently brewing in the forums, I've been thinking about mundane ways (actions, items, and skill-based) to counter spells.
I've elected a few spells, and posted some weaknesses.
Note: Mundane ways is best dealt with without introducing new items or mechanics unless they are simple and easily remembered.
Let's start:
Fireball: A tried and true classic spell. Fireball's weakness is based off the spell's description (a pea-sized bead, or a fine-sized object) and by intuiting some facts.
Spell Weakness: A fireball can be intercepted with a ranged attack. If a held action triggers in response to a fireball, the target must succeed on an attack roll versus the AC of a 13 (5 base + 8 size bonus). If the attack is successful, the attacker can preemptively explode the bead (discharging the fireball as normal) but in an area of effect chosen by the attacker. The area of effect must be centered at any point between the caster and the initial target of the caster. This can take effect on the caster's space.
Lightning Bolt: Another classic spell. The weakness is easily thought-of: lightning rods.
Spell Weakness: A lightning bolt takes place on its entire area of effect, unless the line passes within 5 feet from a metallic object that is halfway in natural soil or dirt. When passing by this grounded object, the lightning bolt's damage is reduced by 2d6. This can occur multiple times, counted once per object.
Fly: One of the more breaking ones, this spell's weakness does require mechanic changes, but they are rather simple--while flying at all (and not flying by wings), getting hit reduces altitude.
Spell Weakness: If you are hit while flying, you must succeed on a DC 10 Fly check or lose 10 feet of altitude. If this would reduce your altitude to a given surface to 0, you take the appropriate fall damage.
Special: For better scaling, the distance fallen is a number of feet equal the damage taken, and the DC is equal to the damage taken. A successful saving throw negates any loss in altitude (or, to hit the spell again with the nerf-bat, halves distance fallen).
Black Tentacles: Toted as either necessary (borderline overpowered) or weak against CR-equivalent creatures.
Spell Weakness: The tentacles can be harmed, but only one 5-foot square worth of tentacles. They have an AC of 4 (5 base - 1 size), and 16 hit points. If reduced to 0, they can regrow after 1d4 rounds.
Choose a spell, and come up with a mundane way to counter it.
Would countering invisibility with a bag of flour count, or is that actually already part of the rules? I can never remember whether that's strict houserule territory or not.
Ethereal Gears wrote: Would countering invisibility with a bag of flour count, or is that actually already part of the rules? I can never remember whether that's strict houserule territory or not. I always wondered how that "countering invisibility with a bag of flour" thing worked. I'm not seeing it.
Flour tossed at an invisible character counts, actually. It is not built into the rules.
@Distant Scholar: Basically the idea is this: An invisible character can still be hit, right? If thrown at with a bag of flour (or if a bag of flour is dropped nearby), some of the flour would stick on the invisible character and reveal his location.
Invisibility: A known homebrew solution is not dispelling the spell per se, but easing the possibility of pinpointing the target.
Spell Weakness: While invisible, the caster can only make invisible what they add to the folds of their clothes or what they have wielded or are wearing (such as backpacks and armor), but lingering effects such as projectiles do not turn invisible. It costs a swift action to hide one of such effects.
Also, if the caster is subjected to a cloud of powder, or is in an area of rain, smoke, fog, or is swimming, the displacement leaves a mark. Any who can witness the displacement can target the invisible character as if they already pinpointed their position.
Plane Shift: Known for being one of the most egregious CM/D offenses, Plane Shift can be used for utility (as a planar variant of teleport), defensively (retreating to a plane of safety) or offensively (throwing an enemy into Hell). Here is a simple weakness.
Spell Weakness: Every plane has several permanent points to plane shift into. Plane shifting requires the caster choose an entry point, which is usually called a 'planar gateway'. By default, once a character gains access (learns or prepares the spell), they are intuitively aware of only one entry point of every plane that is not secret to them. A character gains knowledge of more planar ways by traveling inside the plane in question, and can plane shift into another gateway once they discover and attune to it by spending one hour in focus and study of the new gateway. If the plane is created via magic, the creator determines the number of entry points (minimum 1) upon creation, and may add more by casting the same spell used in creation of the plane (or expending the same action in case of divine beings).
Charm Person: The description of the charmed condition leaves some to be desired. Here is a little fix.
Spell Weakness: If cast on a hostile target or one that is attacking, the spell's power is weakened; the target is instead pacified for the duration of the spell, and is not friendly. While pacified, the target will not attack unless provoked (such as by targeting its friends, attacking the target itself, or otherwise performing an action with clearly hostile ramifications, such as battlefield maneuvering or combat healing) so long the target believes an attack will be inevitable). In this case, the target may roll a Sense Motive check opposed by the caster's Bluff to intuit hidden hostilities.
DM Shade wrote: @Distant Scholar: Basically the idea is this: An invisible character can still be hit, right? If thrown at with a bag of flour (or if a bag of flour is dropped nearby), some of the flour would stick on the invisible character and reveal his location. But objects carried or worn by an invisible person are still invisible, aren't they? As long as they aren't glowing?
Edit: Found this under the invisibility special ability:
Invisibility wrote: If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away). I guess the question comes down to how well one can "coat" an invisible resisting creature with flour.
Distant Scholar wrote: DM Shade wrote: @Distant Scholar: Basically the idea is this: An invisible character can still be hit, right? If thrown at with a bag of flour (or if a bag of flour is dropped nearby), some of the flour would stick on the invisible character and reveal his location. But objects carried or worn by an invisible person are still invisible, aren't they? As long as they aren't glowing?
Edit: Found this under the invisibility special ability:
Invisibility wrote: If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away). I guess the question comes down to how well one can "coat" an invisible resisting creature with flour. If flour falling onto someone under the effects of invisibility magic makes the flour disappear, I think that would be just as noticeable as flour floating around in the shape of some creature. A finely ground powder like flour would kind of float in the air for a while, not just settle immediately.
Teleport: Rather than use familiarity as a rubric for success, there is a simpler and more narrative-based method to rule teleportation.
Spell Weakness: A character can teleport to any area they have a focus from. This focus can be a tablet, book, or even a pebble. An eligible focus must be an object that remained in the designated teleportation spot for more than three months. The spell teleports you to the nearest possible space you can occupy from the location of the focus.
Teleportation cannot also function into an area that is sealed off or lined with lead.
Ever thought of a gift to give your wizarding friend? A stone pedastel and a slab of rock from it. Teleport circles would appear in centers of cities, and trusted casters will be given keys to specific locations to teleport to, such as the library, watchtower, (or in some instances) living quarters.
I wouldn't give weaknesses to any damaging evocation. They're already weak enough. A well built and properly equipped archer with an efficient quiver can put out similar damage all day unless you meet lots of enemies that approach in fireball formation.
Evocations specifically are sub-optimal, that is true.
The fact that evocations cannot be countered save by magic still call for an answer, however. The idea is to give a homebrew framework for mundane characters to have a say when magic is being thrown around.
Flesh to Stone: One of the scarier abilities in a magical beast's arsenal. Not as irresistible as most Wizard/Cleric staples, but still dangerous to groups without Wizards.
Spell Weakness: Most creatures that turn others to stone are resistant to their own abilities. Imbibing, being coated with, or accepting a transfusion of such a creature's blood (for reference: cockatrice, medusa, basilisk, wizard with Flesh to Stone prepared) grants temporary immunity to being turned to stone. The blood dries or becomes inert and useless an hour after application, or a minute after being targeted by Flesh to Stone or a similar effect.
Because we all want an excuse to drink Wizard blood.
DM Shade wrote:
Fireball: A tried and true classic spell. Fireball's weakness is based off the spell's description (a pea-sized bead, or a fine-sized object) and by intuiting some facts.
Spell Weakness: A fireball can be intercepted with a ranged attack. If a held action triggers in response to a fireball, the target must succeed on an attack roll versus the AC of a 13 (5 base + 8 size bonus). If the attack is successful, the attacker can preemptively explode the bead (discharging the fireball as normal) but in an area of effect chosen by the attacker. The area of effect must be centered at any point between the caster and the initial target of the caster. This can take effect on the caster's space.
I think your AC of 13 is for immobile object, but the fireball bead move (and pretty fast, up to 400ft in less than 6 secondes).
The AC should be way higher.
blangel wrote: DM Shade wrote:
Fireball: A tried and true classic spell. Fireball's weakness is based off the spell's description (a pea-sized bead, or a fine-sized object) and by intuiting some facts.
Spell Weakness: A fireball can be intercepted with a ranged attack. If a held action triggers in response to a fireball, the target must succeed on an attack roll versus the AC of a 13 (5 base + 8 size bonus). If the attack is successful, the attacker can preemptively explode the bead (discharging the fireball as normal) but in an area of effect chosen by the attacker. The area of effect must be centered at any point between the caster and the initial target of the caster. This can take effect on the caster's space.
I think your AC of 13 is for immobile object, but the fireball bead move (and pretty fast, up to 400ft in less than 6 secondes).
The AC should be way higher. Maybe an AC equal to the spell's DC? Or perhaps equal to 10+caster's concentration check modifier? Or AC of 10+8 size bonus+caster's ranged attack modifier?
The logic is sound--it is not immobile. Movement speed has little to do with high AC, however. A well-rounded 'ghost Dexterity' would be a 12, for an AC of 24.
Alternatively--
For an approach with scale (which I would recommend in this case), it can be an opposed Attack roll by the caster vs. interrupting character (caster uses Dexterity as if a ranged attack).
If the attacker succeeds, they intercept the fireball bead. If not, it continues unimpeded.
Note: This disadvantages low BAB casters before high-BAB characters. Since the mundane must hold their action, the choice is the caster's.
Feeling lucky, I hope.
Scorching/Polar Ray or Ray of Enfeeblement/Frost/etc.: Seen and hinted in several fantasy stories, 'cleaving' rays is a simple answer.
Spell Weakness: With a successful opposed attack roll as a held action, a creature that is a target of this spell (or through whose reach the spell passes) can intercept this spell with an attack. On a successful roll, the spell instead targets the object intercepted (counting damage against hit points/hardness and halving energy damage as normal). If the spell cannot target an object (such as by being a mind-affecting ray or a ray that inflicts a condition), it is dispelled instead.
Special: If the attacker's check exceeds the caster's check by 5 points or higher, there is a 30% chance the ray does not target the object, and is instead deflected with full force back to the caster; otherwise it is simply negated.
Now, an interesting question arises: Dare we slaughter the sacred cow and treat magic missile as a ray?
Since it is not described as one, I am inclined to say no, but the idea is tempting.
My Self wrote: Flesh to Stone: One of the scarier abilities in a magical beast's arsenal. Not as irresistible as most Wizard/Cleric staples, but still dangerous to groups without Wizards.
Spell Weakness: Most creatures that turn others to stone are resistant to their own abilities. Imbibing, being coated with, or accepting a transfusion of such a creature's blood (for reference: cockatrice, medusa, basilisk, wizard with Flesh to Stone prepared) grants temporary immunity to being turned to stone. The blood dries or becomes inert and useless an hour after application, or a minute after being targeted by Flesh to Stone or a similar effect.
Because we all want an excuse to drink Wizard blood.
Very thematic!
A dab of blood, I believe, would be enough.
DM Shade wrote: Now, an interesting question arises: Dare we slaughter the sacred cow and treat magic missile as a ray?
Since it is not described as one, I am inclined to say no, but the idea is tempting.
No. If a Wizard is trying to kill you with magic missiles, they are truly on their last reserves. Even as a poor semi-martial such as a Core Rogue or Core Monk, you should be able to smash face and win any damage contest against a magic missile user. If you cannot, you should consider an alternative to adventuring- maybe bartending or shopkeeping.
DM Shade wrote: My Self wrote: Flesh to Stone: One of the scarier abilities in a magical beast's arsenal. Not as irresistible as most Wizard/Cleric staples, but still dangerous to groups without Wizards.
Spell Weakness: Most creatures that turn others to stone are resistant to their own abilities. Imbibing, being coated with, or accepting a transfusion of such a creature's blood (for reference: cockatrice, medusa, basilisk, wizard with Flesh to Stone prepared) grants temporary immunity to being turned to stone. The blood dries or becomes inert and useless an hour after application, or a minute after being targeted by Flesh to Stone or a similar effect.
Because we all want an excuse to drink Wizard blood.
Very thematic!
A dab of blood, I believe, would be enough. A possible problem with only a dab would be that you can take a lot of dabs of blood from your party wizard or a living cockatrice without serious harm. It would be trivial to get a bunch and apply ever hour or after every combat.
Just to add on to the weakness: Being coated with all of the blood of one of the creatures mentioned should be able to allow another save to throw off the stone-ness.
DM Shade wrote:
Fly: One of the more breaking ones, this spell's weakness does require mechanic changes, but they are rather simple--while flying at all (and not flying by wings), getting hit reduces altitude.
Spell Weakness: If you are hit while flying, you must succeed on a DC 10 Fly check or lose 10 feet of altitude. If this would reduce your altitude to a given surface to 0, you take the appropriate fall damage.
Special: For better scaling, the distance fallen is a number of feet equal the damage taken, and the DC is equal to the damage taken. A successful saving throw negates any loss in altitude (or, to hit the spell again with the nerf-bat, halves distance fallen). So, the fly skill rules... that already apply. It's not even a change. And the special doesn't make any sense to add, frankly.
Grease: A low-level Wizard control spell staple.
Spell Weakness: A large bucket of soapy water should do. A full round spent cleaning the grease with soapy water reduces the remaining duration of the grease to 1 round/5 levels (1 at 1st, 2 at 5th, 3 at 10th, etc), instead of 1 minute/level.
DM Shade wrote: Evocations specifically are sub-optimal, that is true.
The fact that evocations cannot be countered save by magic still call for an answer, however. The idea is to give a homebrew framework for mundane characters to have a say when magic is being thrown around.
The counter is called having d10 or d12 hit dice. It's just damage. Or in the case of the rogue and monk it's having a fast reflex save progression and evasion.
Another option for teleportation is that it doesnt just blink you to the other location but rather opens a gateway that must be moved through. The caster must make a check with a dc to be determined to actually close the gateway
Ooh Mirror image: illusions are just that. Not physically there.
Weakness: same as invisibility. If the flour floats through it you know it aint real. Etc etc for water and such
The Archive wrote: So, the fly skill rules... that already apply. It's not even a change. And the special doesn't make any sense to add, frankly. You're half right: the skill check does apply, but only if you use winged flight.
The spell Fly does not require you to make checks if struck.
CRB wrote: If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. My Self wrote: A possible problem with only a dab would be that you can take a lot of dabs of blood from your party wizard or a living cockatrice without serious harm. It would be trivial to get a bunch and apply ever hour or after every combat. Perhaps only the blood of the creature who imposed the effect can undo it.
But perhaps a dab is too little indeed.
Are we thinking of a literal blood-bath? :D
@Grease: I like it. I would also allow normal fire (or fire spells) to set the Grease aflame to accomplish the same effect (dealing 1d6 fire damage per round as well).
Note: This is in fact a Mythic spell function, but it is intuitive enough to not warrant requiring Mythic.
Quote: Mirror Image: llusions are just that. Not physically there.
Weakness: same as invisibility. If the flour floats through it you know it aint real. Etc etc for water and such
Quite so.
A general weakness of figments:
Spell Weakness: Looking at illusions through reflective mediums (such as mirrors, water, or similar reflective surfaces) count as interacting with the illusion, allowing a saving throw to disbelieve.
I like the figment one, although, can I ask, has it ever been precisely clarified what does and doesn't, per RAW, count as "interacting" with an illusion? Because if so I have destroyed many friendships with fellow gamers unnecessarily. :P
I believe Ultimate Intrigue has some answers to that, but it's not on the SRD yet.
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