Hi there!
Big, BIG fan of Pathfinder overall and I'm finally leaving the core classes to look at the PrC's and ... the Eldrich Knight looks weak, weak, weak by comparison to the other PrC's.
So ... what happened? I mean, it REALLY stands out as odd and/or wrong in design compared to the other PrC's that are magic-based.
I mean ... they get 3 feats, 1 interesting class feature, and 1 that is dependent upon critical hits only ... what gives? The rest is all empty class levels. Wasn't this a focus and stated design element?
Nearly every other caster-PrC gets some really unique and potent abilities. The Mystic theurge gets a LOT of abilities that compliment each other nicely and are very powerful vs. the average feat. Maybe they don't get the d10 hd, but still ... they're potent.
Even more, the Dragon Disciple gets d12 hd (even more) and does trade off 3 levels of caster, but look at what they get: good amount of natural armor, good amount of str boosting, flight, claws and breath attacks ... totally worth the 3 caster levels and they get amazing abilities AND have better saves and HD than the EK .... so ... what am I missing?
Honestly, it just looks like a serious oversight to me ... is there an errata or something that addresses this? Thanks.
|
1. Eldritch Knight, as a concept of a melee/arcanist class, does not work. But that's not so much a fault of Paizo as it is a fault of 3.5 ed multiclass system.
2. Having said that, the PrC is quite OK for what it is. You get full BAB and (almost) full spellcasting progression, what else does one need ?
well, i made a theory build with EK and it turned out pretty strong. it was lvl 9, took precise, rapid, many shot, could cast as a lvl 9 caster though it only had the spells of a 7th. but the big draw is that with a full spell progression(in prestige class), u get full BAB progression and all 10 lvls count as fighter for feats. IMO this is to give a physical type character the ability to cast spells. he will never be pure magic, but it is meant to give both.
also, if u choose to go with melee instead of range u should still be dex based, spell failure is no joke
Hmm ... maybe in theory, but look at the other PrC's that are full casters - they get A LOT of bonus stuff ... but not the EK.
I'm just wondering about the disconnect in design ... doesn't really make sense.
Edit: Case in point - I'll itemize them
Arcane Archer
*d10 hd
*4+ skills
*best bab
*2 good saves
*-3 caster levels
*special abilities at every level
Arcane Trickster
*d6 hd
*4+ skills
*worst bab
*2 good saves
*no caster level loss
*special abilities at every level
Dragon Disciple
*d12 hd {OMG!!!}
*2+ skills
*moderate bab
*2 good saves
*-3 caster levels
*special abilities at every level, MANY at 2 bonuses on a given level!!!
Eldrich Knight
*d10 hd
*2+ skills
*best bab
*1 good save
*-1 caster level
*only 4 levels with "abilities" 3 of which are merely feats (ie: FAR less powerful than most PrC abilities)
Loremaster
*d6 hd
*4+ skills
*worst bab
*1 good save
*-no caster levels
*special abilities at every level
Mystic Theurge
*d6 hd
*2+ skills
*worst bab
*1 good save
*-no caster levels
*special abilities in 6 of 10 levels ... each one EXTREMELY powerful!
I mean ... seriously - doesn't that look odd in design? Look at the stuff the other caster-classes get.
There's NOTHING that really stands out at all in the EK PrC.
What my group houserules with the Eldritch Knight is that Eldritch Knight levels also stack for either Wizard arcane school abilities or Sorceror Bloodlines. This on top of their Eldritch Knight levels counting towards Fighters for feats makes what you call "empty class levels" anything but, and leads towards a good support fighter who can still cast at full CL (with that one base trait) and only be two levels behind a normal Wizard while being able to swing a sword/shoot a bow like nobodies business.
First of all, EK went from D6 in 3.5 to D10 in Pathfinder. Very nice!
Probably the biggest benefit to EKs is the new feats.
Arcane Strike
Arcane Armor Training
Feats like Deadly Aim, Vital Strike, and the Power Attack changes.
All of those new fighter only and critical feats.
I think the only real issue with EK's is the whole swift action for armor training/ other things. Then again, how cheap is a still spell metamagic rod, 4K gp? Problem solved.
The Speaker o' Dreams:
Perhaps if you could be a little more specific in what you are looking for in the class... More attack power? More spell power? What do you think the class is missing?
Whoops ... I edited my post above all - please reference it for a quick comparison (what I did in the first place).
As for what I'm looking for ... I don't really know.
I guess maybe some sort of insight to the design choices of why it's ok to leave it blank.
I like the idea of Deathcon, though - let diverse training progress the class abilities of both core-classes. Even THAT is a step up from what's currently there, no?
At present all that Diverse Training does is grant a simple addition to your "fighter level" for meeting prerequisites of other feats. It doesn't add to any fighter-class abilities, and so ... while very interesting, it grants very little to the PrC overall, you know?
What I'm looking for (@Fergie) is maybe ... something to compete w/other classes? I mean ... look at the quick run-down and just note the discrepency. Empty levels are like a defining feature of the EK .. then look at all the cool toys the other classes get. EK's are left in the dust!
I was thinking of maybe a simple adjustment for them ... like maybe add the exact same fighter feat progression to this PrC (vs. the measly 3 feats they get now). So, 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10 would net them at least some way to reap the benefit of Diverse Training, follow? Plus ... feats are FAR weaker than those special class abilities up front, BUT if you're core concept is a warrior-wizard, feats are actually much closer in-line to your bread and butter.
Do you really want the best of both worlds? You continue advancing in whatever spellcasting class you were in before, and in addition you get d10 hit points and a full BaB. That's huge. If you're looking for a Fighter who can cast spells as well as an equal level Wizard, you may want to look into the old gestalt rules.
The -only- thing I'd change is giving the EK two good saves (Fort and Will).
|
One thing I would add is that there is nothing wrong with some empty levels as long as the class gets something like additional spell casting ability. My guess is that the ability to still progress in a meaningful way in both the fighting class and the arcane class is seen as the primary ability of this Prestige Class and therefore few additional abilities were added.
Ok lets look at what the "base" classes get:
Fighter:
d10 HD/Full BAB
Good Fort Save
Feat every 2 levels.
Armor Training
Weapon Training
Wizard:
d6/poor BAB
Good Will Save
Feat every 5 levels.
Spellcasting
Abilities based on school
Now the EK gets:
d10/Full BAB
Good Save
Spellcasting
3 feats in 10 levels
Skills that neither class gets (sense motive I'm looking at you!)
Continued access to fighter only feats.
Improved
Lets not forget that Fighter/wizard is NOT the only way into this class:
Any other class that gives full access to martial weapons suddenly gets 10 levels of fighter for the purposes of fighter only feats. This helps the:
Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin.
All of whom now can have greater weapon focus, and weapon specialization or greater shield focus.
While you can also use Sorcerer or Bard to enter this class too.
Bard would give better BAB and HD as well as armored casting, while sorcerer probably benefits the least from the switch over.
Do you really want the best of both worlds? You continue advancing in whatever spellcasting class you were in before, and in addition you get d10 hit points and a full BaB. That's huge. If you're looking for a Fighter who can cast spells as well as an equal level Wizard, you may want to look into the old gestalt rules.
The -only- thing I'd change is giving the EK two good saves (Fort and Will).
I have NO idea what would be best ... I'm just noting the clear disparity in PrC design amongst casting-types.
Other PrC's may not be getting a full bab, but they sure are getting full caster status (mostly) and some SERIOUS class abilities ... but the EK gets nothing.
Even the 2 good saves would be a step in the right direction, honestly ... I'm less on the patch end than I am in looking to see if I'm the only one noting this discrepancy?
I mean .. dragon disciples not only get better saves and hd, they also fully add their PrC levels to the bloodline powers for powers gained ... that's WAY beyond diverse training (ie: only stacking to meet feat pre-req's - not adding to say weapon or armor training, etc).
I look at the PrC's and it's like the EK is an unwanted child .. I'm just trying to give it some love and attention to at least bring them in-line w/the other PrC's.
Don't forget as well that in Pathfinder, PrC's tend not to be more powerful than the base classes like they were in 3.5.
This can make them seem underwhelming when you consider what you give up to take them.
This isn't just the EK though.
@Marc: Right - I'm fine w/empty levels ... but the other PrC's don't have them - follow? Instead, they all get +1 caster level AND some sort of pretty awesome ability that totally out-shines something like a feat.
@Abraham: While different ways to qualify are interesting ... my complaint is centered at the PrC vs. PrC comparisons. I'm far less interested in the "how to get there" than I am in the apparent disparity between PrC's in construction. I say this looking at it with clearly FAR more powerful PrC's in play ...
@Treant: Sure ... that's fine, but again - I'm just looking at PrC to PrC comparisons ... they're not even close for this one class and I'm grasping at why it is so ... ???
|
|
Do you really want the best of both worlds? You continue advancing in whatever spellcasting class you were in before, and in addition you get d10 hit points and a full BaB. That's huge. If you're looking for a Fighter who can cast spells as well as an equal level Wizard, you may want to look into the old gestalt rules.
The -only- thing I'd change is giving the EK two good saves (Fort and Will).
I have NO idea what would be best ... I'm just noting the clear disparity in PrC design amongst casting-types.
Other PrC's may not be getting a full bab, but they sure are getting full caster status (mostly) and some SERIOUS class abilities ... but the EK gets nothing.
Even the 2 good saves would be a step in the right direction, honestly ... I'm less on the patch end than I am in looking to see if I'm the only one noting this discrepancy?
I mean .. dragon disciples not only get better saves and hd, they also fully add their PrC levels to the bloodline powers for powers gained ... that's WAY beyond diverse training (ie: only stacking to meet feat pre-req's - not adding to say weapon or armor training, etc).
I look at the PrC's and it's like the EK is an unwanted child .. I'm just trying to give it some love and attention to at least bring them in-line w/the other PrC's.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but in answer to your question ... it kind of seems like maybe you ARE the only one who sees a big problem here ...
Please don't take this the wrong way, but in answer to your question ... it kind of seems like maybe you ARE the only one who sees a big problem here ...
Really? It doesn't seem odd the ability spread in other PrC's?
So ... then what am I missing?
@Abraham: While different ways to qualify are interesting ... my complaint is centered at the PrC vs. PrC comparisons. I'm far less interested in the "how to get there" than I am in the apparent disparity between PrC's in construction. I say this looking at it with clearly FAR more powerful PrC's in play ...
Except in this case that is a HUGE part of the classes power. All of a sudden you get several options that you didn't have before. Like speakbreaker, greater shield focus, weapon specialization and greater weapon focus.
Don't forget that you can take Weapon Specialization (rays) or greater weapon focus (rays) and you are highly likely to get to the +16 BAB with this prestige class than any of the others.
In addition it does have better HP and skills too... that's not a little thing.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but in answer to your question ... it kind of seems like maybe you ARE the only one who sees a big problem here ...
I agree here too. I'm playing a EK, and I'm not feeling any loss of love. The Arcane Strike Feats and Mithral Full Plate have been really fun with this PrC. I think that adding any more to EK would harken back to overpowered PrCs.
Actually, he's not the only one. I've always felt it was a little weak. I think they should have added no spell failure in Light Armor only, and some form of Spell Strike ability to put a Spell in your weapon and deliver it through a melee attack. I think that might have evened it out a bit.
Hmm ... ok, so the ability to be "fighter" w/out being a "fighter" is a feature somehow?
Is this one piece I'm missing? I'm not fully convinced of it as a full feature, though - the only way to take advantage of it is through normal progression of level-based feats (as only 3 feats in 10 levels is kind of weak feature-wise).
Where's the skill stuff coming from, though? It only gets 2+ (worst skills).
Again, 90% of my criticisms come from just looking at the other PrC's.
To my eyes, they already look like their a good deal more powerful than most base classes ... so ... yeah. I'm missing something - that's why I'm posting though. I'm trying to figure it out ... what am I missing and overlooking???
{Definitely helping me so far - thanks guys and gals - really}
|
Like the other posters, I feel they are great. At their heart they are better than Arcane Archers AS archers if you want to be mage concentrated. An Arcane Archer requires +6 BAB; that means either concentrating on the fighter side of things or waiting till level 12 to get in. It loses 3 levels of spellcasting along the way.
Eldrich Knights lose only 2 levels of spellcasting period; basically it's designed as a Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 build. For those 2 levels of spellcasting, you get 3 martial feats, the "critical lets you free-quicken a spell (eventually), and most importantly straight bab and 1 extra HP per level (this accounts for the loss of "favored class" free hp, on average d6 + 1 < d10 by 1)). And you should be "on level" as far as the effects; the talent that gives you +2 to wizard will compensate for you.
Straight BAB and Spellcasting is huge; they can't get much else, they'd push off the charts. Again, you're much better off as an archer (where you only need two stats, Dex and Int; and the lighter armors are less of a disadvantage). One can argue straight caster is still better (this school tells you nothing is better than caster levels, and to an extent it is correct).
It's the fact that you get everything the fighter does, everything the wizard does, and don't really give up anything in return.
You don't lose 3 spell casting levels like the AA or the DD, you still get Full BAB, you still get 3 bonus feats ( just two less than a fighter would get and 1 more than a wizard would get) and you get some special abilities.
A lot of those fighter only feats are really nice, and add a lot to the character, especially if you don't use fighter levels to get into the class.
ah for the good ole days of the elven bladesinger. ;-)
I don't have my book handy with me right now, but I will get it in a little bit and look at things. I will tell you right now though that you might be getting suckered in by the laundry list of "stuff" that the other prc's give you. One thing that I discovered playing in multiple 3.5 games and taking them into epic is that a lot of the times the little things that a prc gives you doesn't really matter or doesn't come up that often. They look pretty, they seem neat, but they really aren't as good as they seem on first glance. Whereas something like the EK that just seems to get a couple of things and full BAB and almost full casting, seems....well neglected. I will post more later after I can look at things.
This thread got me to look at the following build:
20 point buy:
STR 13 (3) DEX 14 (5) CON 12 (5) INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 16.
Half Elf. +2 bonus to CON
Paladin for level 1
Sorcerer for levels 2-4, stat boost to STR
Paladin for level 5
Sorcerer for level 6-8, stat boost to CHA
Eldritch Knight for levels 9-18, future stat boosts to CHA
Note that Diverse Training also says this:
He also adds his level to any levels in an arcane spellcasting class for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites for feats.
Which to me means that the Eldritch Knight counts as levels of Sorcerer for Bloodline Feats and Bloodline Spells, and would give the Wizard bonus feats as well.
|
|
Yep, its the fighter BAB and feats that make this prestige class awesome. Its like taking a level of fighter, but also gaining spells as a result. If you want a fighter class with pretty magic stuff, I suppose you could make up something, but that wouldn't be the eldritch knight, and you'd probably have to offer a lower BAB to balance out the class.
|
|
This thread got me to look at the following build:
20 point buy:
STR 13 (3) DEX 14 (5) CON 12 (5) INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 16.
Half Elf. +2 bonus to CON
Paladin for level 1
Sorcerer for levels 2-4, stat boost to STR
Paladin for level 5
Sorcerer for level 6-8, stat boost to CHA
Eldritch Knight for levels 9-18, future stat boosts to CHANote that Diverse Training also says this:
He also adds his level to any levels in an arcane spellcasting class for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites for feats.
Which to me means that the Eldritch Knight counts as levels of Sorcerer for Bloodline Feats and Bloodline Spells, and would give the Wizard bonus feats as well.
Meeting the prerequisites of spells isn't the same thing as having access to them. However, if he wanted to take a feat that required 5th level caster or something, like perhaps an item creation feat, the Eldritch Knight levels would count toward that.
Ok..
Arcane Archer: good BAB, 2 good saves, -3 spell lvls
Enhance arrows and the Imbue arrow abilities are solid...especially if you get a magical bow so you are stacking the bonuses from the arrows and the bow.
Seeker arrow is at best usable 4 times/day and really just eliminates cover...which is good...but there are better things out there
Phase arrow is usable 3 times/day at 10th level and essentially does the same thing as the Seeker arrow except now it also ignores shields, and armor...but it does state that any magical barrier stops the arrow...so how does that work with mage armor, shield, or magical armor or shields? Would that completely stop said arrow? Seems like it would.
Hail of arrows is usable 1 time/day....I don't really have anything bad to say about this ability...it's solid. It's ranged great cleave, yay.
Arrow of death is....well you can only have one at a time, and it takes 1 full day to make one. So that ability is usable at best once every other day...and the save dc is 20+ cha mod....so it's ok, but so limited in how often it can be used.
Also the Seeker and Phase arrow abilities are full round actions so for the ability to ignore cover you lose all of your other attacks that round and the chance to cast any spell that is not quickened...
Overall the class is good for what it is...but it doesn't get super cool things every level.
Arcane Trickster: Poor BAB, 2 good saves, does not lose any casting levels
Ranged Legerdemain: this is pretty cool...as long as you keep your ranks in Disable device and Sleight of hand high it means that a prison cell probably won't be able to keep you for long, and you can now disarm those nasty traps at range so if you mess up you are less likely to get it in the face.
the bonus to sneak attack is good, but remember you are losing BAB with this class so the likelihood that you will hit all the time is going down....although I am pretty sure that you could deal sneak attack damage with a ray, so that is fun, ranged touch attack-y sneak attacks are nice.
Impromptu Sneak attack is good but only usable 2 times/day, so not a good ability to get the class for. (I want my abilities to be usable as often as I need them)
Tricky Spells is a good ability, again if you are captured. You are in a prison or in custody and you are bound and gagged but can still cast some spells...it's a decent ability.
Invisible Thief is ok...you have a spell that does the same thing...the good thing is that it is a supernatural ability so it can't be dispelled, but can still be supressed in an antimagic field. Again there's the limit of only 10 rounds/day at 10th level that I just don't care for...
Surprise Spells....this is good but you are doing it already doing that with ray spells. This ability is unlimited in use however....so it's pretty freaking nice.
You are still sacrificing BAB for all of this...it is more of a mage with rogue abilities than a rogue with magic imo although you have to be a 3rd lvl rogue to get into it, so you are really losing 3 spell levels for it.
Dragon Disciple: medium BAB, 2 good saves, loses 3 casting levels
Blood of the Dragons: Read, you should be a sorcerer with the dragon bloodline for this class...it's the best thing for your. It's good, it lets your prc levels stack with your sorcerer levels for your bloodline abilities....nice
Natural Armor Increase is good...+3 nat ac..can't complain there
Ability Boost ok, you get +4 Str...your a sorcerer who cares, +2 Con that's good more hp, +2 Int....good for skill points but not much else, remember to get the most out of this class you are a sorcerer so you need Cha not Int.
Bloodline Feat further ensures that the lvls from this class stack with sorcerer with the dragon bloodline, which is nice but not super great.
Breath Weapon, see above
Blindsense is nice, it is a great ability...the range of 30 ft kinda sucks because you will most likely be lobbing spells but oh well, it's a rare ability that is pretty good.
Dragon Form is great, although you are limited to Form of the Dragon II with this ability can only use it 2 times/day and gain the Form of the Dragon III as a bonus spell due to your bloodline, oh well it's 2 extra 7th lvl spells a day, so it's useful in that respect.
Wings....ummmmmm....ok.......so you can fly now....you could before too....if you took the bloodline you now have a movement of 90 ft which is pretty awesome, but that's about it.
So overall it has a ton of flavor but a gish prc it is not...
Loremaster: Poor BAB, one good save
Secret, oh cool you get to choose 5 numerically negligible abilities through the course of a 10 lvl prc...yay. Seriously, you can only choose each secret once and aside from Instant mastery, Secret Health, and Applicable knowledge they aren't really that good imo....
Bonus Languages, soooooo.....2 bonus languages....neat I guess....language has never really been an issue with any of my games especially at this level because if there is an issue you just cast tongues....just my thoughts though.
Lore, now you can have Bardic knowledge too little wizard. I really like this ability though...wizards should know a little bit about everything but their poor skill points/lvl limit that.
Greater Lore, so permanent identify right??? Ok, that's what I thought....it's nice, but not what I would consider game breakingly powerful
True Lore, once per day you get to cast an additional 6th lvl spell....not bad, and very fitting for the class.
If you are a wizard this is a decent class with a lot of flavor
This is the trend...these classes have more abilities than the EK but they are flavorful things...they do neat things...they aren't super powerful by themselves, having a permanent identify isn't going to make taking out that Great Wyrm any easier, but it does give you some fun rp things that you can do.
Mystic Theurge: poor BAB, one good save, no loss in caster level
So why didn't you bring up this class....it gets 2 abilities one just escalates which I guess if you are just glancing at them makes it looks like it is more than it is.
Combined Spells...this can be nice, especially with the dreaded 4th lvl spell slots...just mem more of the good 3rd lvl spells with them, yay.
Spell synthesis is niiiiiiiice....only once/day, which kinda sucks but for one round a day you can cast 3 spells....(the combined casting and a quickened spell).....that will clear up a battle field.
I did bring up the Theurge -- it's REALLY powerful and not only a full casting class, but in 2 different classes! I didn't get into specifics, but yes - there's something there.
You've forgotten one pretty potent factor, IMO, in the Dragon Disciple: d12 HD.
Really, though, I think the point you made about flavor-abilities might just be what I'm looking at. You're utility may vary on things like a Loremaster, but the fact remains that these classes all get spells AND some "stuff" for flavor.
The EK is ... vanilla for lack of a better term. There's nothing there, and so it looks underpowered/valued by comparison. This is the root of my problem in observations and comparisons.
I definitely don't agree on the Dragon Disciple thing, though, str matters w/their natural attacks granted from the bloodline. Flight is powerful - at will, no limits ... don't care what you say otherwise. It matters. Free ability boosts ... what other class grants free ability boosts ... 4 times!?!??! And natural armor - as a permanent feature!?!?! No - this class is crazy powerful. If the sorcerer is getting out of combat most of the time (w/a d6 hd only) when he's just in his bloodline, if his spell selection is carefully crafted around making him a melee-fighter/enhancer/whatever ... the INSTANT he gets Dragon Disciple, his BAB increases to 2nd best, and his HD becomes THE best in the game period ... why wouldn't he craft himself towards becoming a crazy-front-line-magic-enhanced combat monstrosity? He's only trading off 3 levels at most in caster ... it's very, VERY powerful.
I mean, spells like bull's strength, cat's grace, and the like (not to mention the cha-booster for messing w/spell DC's) plus Enlarge Person, and displacement, haste, vampiric touch, stone skin, tenser's transformation, troll form, etc, etc, etc. This stuff will make the sorcerer super-bad-ass!!! Especially backed with d12 hd ...
|
|
Since the sorcerer gives up 3 spell levels by pursuing this PrC to its fulfillment, it would probably only have access to 8th level spells by 20th level. (the max in Pathfinder) A 10th level sorcerer/10th level dragon disciple only has access to spells as a 17th level sorcerer.
Giving up the most potent level of spells for a prestige class shoud have some cool abilities to counterbalance it.
Wings: A sorcerer who takes dragon disciple as a PrC gains access to wings at 14th level if he remains a 5th level sorcerer/9th level dragon disciple (casting spells as 11th level sorcerer). This is only one level lower than a typical draconic bloodline sorcerer. A 5th level sorcerer/10th level dragon disciple (casting spells as 12th level sorcerer) has flight with the added bonus, but at this level only has access to 6th level spells.
So yes, the dragon disciple is a powerful class, but the earlier you want the dragon disciple powers the fewer spells you have access to. For a sorcerer, it feels like a fair trade.
Let's do a little bit of min/maxing and say that there's a 12th level sorcerer/8th level dragon disciple. This would be one of the few ways that a sorcerer would get access to 9th level spells with this prestige class. He would have access to flight at 12/3 but would not be able to gain the prestige class's additional flight speed.
Dragon Disciple: medium BAB, 2 good saves, loses 3 casting levels
Blood of the Dragons: Read, you should be a sorcerer with the dragon bloodline for this class...it's the best thing for your. It's good, it lets your prc levels stack with your sorcerer levels for your bloodline abilities....nice
Natural Armor Increase is good...+3 nat ac..can't complain there
Ability Boost ok, you get +4 Str...your a sorcerer who cares, +2 Con that's good more hp, +2 Int....good for skill points but not much else, remember to get the most out of this class you are a sorcerer so you need Cha not Int.
If you are a melee gish, a Bard 12 / Dragon Disciple 8 or a Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Dragon Disciple 4 / Eldritch Knight 10 will use that Ability Boost.
In some way, i think too that the EK is missing something, a class ability that cannot be cloned by any other class, like spell channel, better AC spell.
ah for the good ole days of the elven bladesinger. ;-)
I'm actually in process of attempting a PF-version of the Bladesinger and I'm basing 90% of it off of the old AD&D source material for it.
Yea!!!!! ;-)
Why not something like:
Eldritch Shield:
At level 3, level 6, and level 9: 1/day, you can burn a spell for a damaging aura (similar to Fireshield but untyped). Lasts 1 minute/class level.
The spell level burned determines damage taken from foes that hit you (Xd4).
Or
Eldritch Boost:
As swift action, Burn a spell to boost caster level on next spell. Spell level determines boost amount (up to class level limit so at level 1 can only boost by 1 no matter spell level).
|
|
I did bring up the Theurge -- it's REALLY powerful and not only a full casting class, but in 2 different classes! I didn't get into specifics, but yes - there's something there.
You've forgotten one pretty potent factor, IMO, in the Dragon Disciple: d12 HD.
Really, though, I think the point you made about flavor-abilities might just be what I'm looking at. You're utility may vary on things like a Loremaster, but the fact remains that these classes all get spells AND some "stuff" for flavor.
The EK is ... vanilla for lack of a better term. There's nothing there, and so it looks underpowered/valued by comparison. This is the root of my problem in observations and comparisons.
From what you've wrote, it's pretty obvious you have your idea of what is powerful and what is not. EK is pretty good PrC. It is a bit vanilla, but even back in 3.5, players create what they create first, and then use EK to fill out rest of the class. EK is meant to be a straight fighter/wizard without any other tricks. The way PF is made, I won't be expecting much development on PrCs. We might get another duskblade/arcane warrior type, but not much else. Although I agree with less PrCs, I wish the PrCs were better made and flavored.
I did bring up the Theurge -- it's REALLY powerful and not only a full casting class, but in 2 different classes! I didn't get into specifics, but yes - there's something there.
Not really.
Theurge is mixed. At lower levels, it's horrible. Seriously, it's absolutely atrocious. You're far better off having level 2 arcane or divine over level 1 of both. It actively makes you way, way weaker.
At higher levels, it jumps the power gun and flies into space Team Rocket style, only here space represents power, and the road it leaves behind is the power curve.
EK is good. It doesn't get a bunch of "cool" abilities, but it doesn't need them. It's a wizard that gains fighter abilities. Or a fighter that gains wizard abilities.
In most of your example, caster levels are lost, and for a primary caster, that's something you avoid at all costs. That's why EK is so good - other PrCs lose caster levels as a trade off, but EK loses almost nothing
ah for the good ole days of the elven bladesinger. ;-)I'm actually in process of attempting a PF-version of the Bladesinger and I'm basing 90% of it off of the old AD&D source material for it.
Yea!!!!! ;-)
So it's an elven-only class that's 100% better then everything else for the primary reason of "it's elven."
Please be sarcastic about this. My view of the universe can only take so many people who actively enjoy Complete Book of Elven Wankery. And that number of people is ideally 0.
ah for the good ole days of the elven bladesinger. ;-)I'm actually in process of attempting a PF-version of the Bladesinger and I'm basing 90% of it off of the old AD&D source material for it.
Yea!!!!! ;-)
So it's an elven-only class that's 100% better then everything else for the primary reason of "it's elven."
Please be sarcastic about this. My view of the universe can only take so many people who actively enjoy Complete Book of Elven Wankery. And that number of people is ideally 0.
Wow! ... just ... wow.
Actually, my inspiration is more based on the flavor text of what it was supposed to be representing (ie: elven answer to a paladin), and less about mechanics and such as that type will just be more like stuff that's already in PF/3.x and has been better in refinement.
Man ... I think you must have had a bad experience to come off like that at the mere mention of source material. If you could let prejudice go, there was a lot of merit behind the idea of the kit and style, and a lot of role-play potential as well .. not you're bag, though I guess.
This is only relevant as something that I wanted to examine before fully trying this was to look at the PF standards in PrC's and crafting ... but the EK stands out strangely where the others seem to follow an easy enough pattern.
Mystic Theurge: poor BAB, one good save, no loss in caster level
So why didn't you bring up this class....it gets 2 abilities one just escalates which I guess if you are just glancing at them makes it looks like it is more than it is.
Combined Spells...this can be nice, especially with the dreaded 4th lvl spell slots...just mem more of the good 3rd lvl spells with them, yay.
Spell synthesis is niiiiiiiice....only once/day, which kinda sucks but for one round a day you can cast 3 spells....(the combined casting and a quickened spell).....that will clear up a battle field.
Well, Mystic Theurge is cool but there are two MAJOR problems with it.
One, you say no loss in caster level? True, BUT because of the requirements, you will ALWAYS be at least 1 spell level behind an equivalent arcane/divine caster. This HURTS. And so you know a lot of spells, ok, cool...but...you can still only cast 1 spell per round.The level 10 ability is fun, but is it worth it? I dont think so.
That said, I think the flavor of the class is fun, and the versatility could be very useful in some campaigns. It is NOT, though, a Power PRC.
Man ... I think you must have had a bad experience to come off like that at the mere mention of source material. If you could let prejudice go, there was a lot of merit behind the idea of the kit and style, and a lot of role-play potential as well .. not you're bag, though I guess.
Yeah, I think the whole book can be summed up in "bad experience" ;p
My issue with the fluff is that it doesn't really need to be seperated from EK, not if the entire difference between it and an EK is "Well this one's an elf."
The issue with Bladesinger is that, as it was presented, it was literally "Fighter/mage but three times as powerful, because you're an elf." That's the big issue - the idea that elves get their own kit - or PrC - that's literally always going to be better then everything else just because they're elves.
Well, Mystic Theurge is cool but there are two MAJOR problems with it.
One, you say no loss in caster level? True, BUT because of the requirements, you will ALWAYS be at least 1 spell level behind an equivalent arcane/divine caster. This HURTS.
I can attest to this. In our campaign our cleric3/wizard3/MT1 JUST got enough XP to level up and use 3rd level spells (waiting for some downtime to level up), while I'm a short handful of XP from hitting 9th level Wizard (5th level spells!).
And so you know a lot of spells, ok, cool...but...you can still only cast 1 spell per round.
The level 10 ability is fun, but is it worth it? I dont think so.
That said, I think the flavor of the class is fun, and the versatility could be very useful in some campaigns. It is NOT, though, a Power PRC.
What the MT gets in spades is versatility and endurance. You almost always have a spell for a situation and can cast spells a lot longer than any other class. It's a long hard road though, so kudos to anyone who does it.
To be fair, the ball was dropped on all the PrCs but the Assassin and Dragon Disciple.
Wow. Another thread about EK's being icky. :)
If it were me, I'd just get rid of PrCs completely and turn their class abilities into feat chains.
Nope not seeing it. If your a Fighter 1/wizard 5/EK 10. Your 16th level with a BAB of +13 a 14th level spellcaster, counts as an 11th level fighter for feats and has 11 feats (4 being combat) and the ability to cast a spell on a crit and base saves of +7/+5/+8
You are in all respects the classic fighter/mage
To be fair, the ball was dropped on all the PrCs but the Assassin and Dragon Disciple.
Now this sounds interesting ... could you elaborate a bit?
Well, Mystic Theurge is cool but there are two MAJOR problems with it.
One, you say no loss in caster level? True, BUT because of the requirements, you will ALWAYS be at least 1 spell level behind an equivalent arcane/divine caster. This HURTS. And so you know a lot of spells, ok, cool...but...you can still only cast 1 spell per round.
The level 10 ability is fun, but is it worth it? I dont think so.
That said, I think the flavor of the class is fun, and the versatility could be very useful in some campaigns. It is NOT, though, a Power PRC.
I fully agree with you...I didn't even go into the requirements to get into any of the classes. Mystic Theurge's are...steep.