I wish to present you an incredible situation during the last session of CoCT ! We were at the beginning of the “Escape from Old Korvosa” during the fight against the red mantis. They defeated them but stabilize one of them in order to ask him some question about where would be Vencarlo and so on. The red mantis didn’t want to answer so the three following PC (a NG rogue, a LG Cleric of Sarenrae and a LN Fighter) decided to torture the red mantis. The fighter keep the arm of the red mantis on the table whereas the rogue broke the fingers or the red mantis using a sap. At the end, like the red mantis didn’t want to repentance, the cleric decided to cut his head off thanks to his sword.
Knowing that, what would be the consequence on the alignment of this 3 PC and moreover, on the alignment for the cleric?
Creative Director
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First of all, you have to decide what kind of act torture is in your campaign. In my opinion, torture's an evil act, but not necessarily a chaotic one.
Under that thesis, I'd probably not have the incident impact the LN fighter at all; he had the least onerous role in it, especially if he was "Just following orders" or caving in to peer pressure and doing what the rest of the party wanted to do.
The NG rogue should probably have his alignment shift to Neutral.
The cleric's the easy answer, since you have two ways to measure things. First off, the act should shift her to neutral from good since torture is evil. Second, Sarenrae's not all that big into executions and torture at all, and a cleric that takes part in them is going against her code. A cleric of Sarenrae should have refused to take part in torture of a human (torture of undead and evil outsiders is a much different thing), and certainly shouuldn't have executed the prisoner without giving him a LOT longer to repent and to redeem himself; she's about redemption, after all. Going against Sarenrae's teachings like that is a chaotic act. So I would have the cleric's alignment switch to Neutral. Which would strip her of her cleric abilites until she atones.
Now; telling PCs their alignments change is a tricky issue. I'd not just say "YOUR ALIGNMENTS ARE CHANGING," but instead tell all three characters, particularly the cleric, that their acts are nagging at their conscience. The cleric in particular should feel guilt, and should seek an atonement spell; preferably one cast by another cleric of Sarenrae. If the PCs blow off your alignment warning and keep on going as if the torture/execution never happened, then change their alignments. If the PCs play along but then do a similar act again, change their alignments.
Part of the challenge of playing a cleric, after all, is sticking to your deity's teachings. That's actually as much a part of the balance of the class as the paladin's code; it's not just game flavor.
Part of the challenge of playing a cleric, after all, is sticking to your deity's teachings. That's actually as much a part of the balance of the class as the paladin's code; it's not just game flavor.
Thanks a lot Mr Jacobs !
I’m going to follow your advice. I’m not going to change their alignment next Friday, but remember them that the act of torture they committed last Friday was not a “good” act and that they should feel ill-at-ease about what they did.Moreover, in the EXCELLENT “gods and magic” it is written that “her displeasure (sarenrae) is most apparent through...period of blindness that can last anywhere”, so my idea is to make the cleric blind during they’ll go to Salvator’s house, asking the cleric for a “knowledge religion throw” in order to remember him the precepts of Sarenrae!!!
Thanks Mr Jacobs!!!
Thanks Mr Jacobs!!!
And moreover, thanks to your idea Mr Jacobs, I’m gonna, at the beginning of the next session, talk in private to my Rogue in order to explain him that during the night I dreamt of a strange thing, seeing Gaedren Lamm (for who is worked during his childhood) who kept the hand of a child on a table and broke the fingers of the child with a sad (to make him remind that my PC acted like the person he hated).
Part of the challenge of playing a cleric, after all, is sticking to your deity's teachings. That's actually as much a part of the balance of the class as the paladin's code; it's not just game flavor.
Thanks a lot Mr Jacobs !
I’m going to follow your advice. I’m not going to change their alignment next Friday, but remember them that the act of torture they committed last Friday was not a “good” act and that they should feel ill-at-ease about what they did.
Moreover, in the EXCELLENT “gods and magic” it is written that “her displeasure (sarenrae) is most apparent through...period of blindness that can last anywhere”, so my idea is to make the cleric blind during they’ll go to Salvator’s house, asking the cleric for a “knowledge religion throw” in order to remember him the precepts of Sarenrae!!!
Thanks Mr Jacobs!!!
Yesterday we played the next episod of “escape...”. At the beginning I told to the rogue the dream he made the previous night (in order to make him understand that the torture he made was not good, without telling him right now, using the image of Gaedren but he seemed to not understand). Concerning the cleric, he understood the fact of beeing blind cause of the fact he didn’t act during the torture’s scene. I didn’t tell anything to the fighter.
The party was pretty cool, they accepted the help of Laori, went to the palace of the Emperor of Old-Korvosa, succed in the fact to be alone with Salvator, 3 guards and the emperor. But at that moment, the fighter succeed in a CMB in turning on himself, with his sword and stop his movement in putting his weapon on the neck of the emperor. The guards kept their weapons on the floor, and he asked the emperor to fall on his knees. The monk of the group helped him to do it. So the emperor was helpless, on his knees and decided to cut his head off (thanks to a coup de grace). The gards fled and the gnome fighted till death. The idea of the rogue (NG) was to take the head of the emperor and put it on a piece of wood in order to show to everyone that the Emperor was dead! They didn’t do it because ALL of the group told him that’s not a good idea.So, what do you think about that? Just for the torture’s act and to have had the idea to show the hed of the emperor to everyone, shouldn’t have to change his alignment from NG to NN ? I suppose that for the fighter (LN) the fact taht he cut the head of the Emperor, is less important because for him, it was logical to cut the head of the snake for the peaceful of Old-Korvosa, but for the rogue?
So, what do you think about that? Just for the torture’s act and to have had the idea to show the hed of the emperor to everyone, shouldn’t have to change his alignment from NG to NN ? I suppose that for the fighter (LN) the fact taht he cut the head of the Emperor, is less important because for him, it was logical to cut the head of the snake for the peaceful of Old-Korvosa, but for the rogue?
Hmmm ... there is a long standing precedence in history for the heads of the defeated enemy to be displayed on poles/stakes as a warning/lesson to others in the area. Also folks would get to vent there emotions by throwing things at the vanquished enemy. So I'm not sure that's an evil act per se on the part of the rogue.
I have only had a PC change alignments once in my games, and it was from neutral to good. However, I was very fond of how the change took place... the player made the decision.
When players act in a way that I do not think is in accordance with their alignment I will sit them down one on one and let them know I want to talk about their alignment and their decisions. I will state up front that the decision is 100% theirs if there needs to be a change but I would like them to think about the specifics. Then I bring up those specific incidents I think are questionable and ask them how they think they fit in with that alignment.
It is a little more tricky for Paladins and Clerics as a change can just ruin the character (I have never seen the whole attonement thing ever make an adventure more fun as it either focuses too much on one player or that one player is gimped while the rest of the group completes their quest... not saying it COULDN'T be fun... I just haven't seen it). In this case I try very hard to give them a warning once they say they are going to do something and then give them a chance to amend the action should they so choose. In the original case it might go down like:
Player: "That's enough! I draw my sword and behead him!"
GM: "Hold on for a sec. Your god is one of redemption. How do you feel being complicite in torture and then a quick execution would fit in with your god's teaching?"
Player A: "Who cares!?! Off with his head!!!"
Player B: "Hrmm... your right... I will try and convince these guys to help me turn this guy over to the authorities."
Now, Player A might really be violating the letter of the rules, but if he is having fun with the game and wouldn't be if I messed with the alignment then I won't. Honestly at this point I would likely look for another god who fits how he plays much better and then try to have him turned to that faith through RP. Once the turn occurs then an alignment change might happen as well. Of course, the new god means that the player doesn't loose his abilities AND you got a good game story. Win, win.
Sean Mahoney
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Hmmm ... there is a long standing precedence in history for the heads of the defeated enemy to be displayed on poles/stakes as a warning/lesson to others in the area. Also folks would get to vent there emotions by throwing things at the vanquished enemy. So I'm not sure that's an evil act per se on the part of the rogue.
And if you want to be really literal about it, taking the head of a body is simply separating into two parts something that used to be whole. It's not evil to break a pencil, why would it be evil to break a body?
Now an argument could be made, as Sean did, that a character who claims to worship a god who would be displeased by it should at least have second thoughts.
Hmmm ... there is a long standing precedence in history for the heads of the defeated enemy to be displayed on poles/stakes as a warning/lesson to others in the area. Also folks would get to vent there emotions by throwing things at the vanquished enemy. So I'm not sure that's an evil act per se on the part of the rogue.And if you want to be really literal about it, taking the head of a body is simply separating into two parts something that used to be whole. It's not evil to break a pencil, why would it be evil to break a body?
Now an argument could be made, as Sean did, that a character who claims to worship a god who would be displeased by it should at least have second thoughts.
Agreed. If the "Emperor" had been killed, but not beheaded, then lopping off his head to stick on a pole could be a stickier issue depending on gods and such. But in this case, he was already in two pieces, so I wasn't viewing this as a "breaking apart" issue, but whether suggesting that they take the already decapitated head and display it would be considered evil. The rest of the party didn't like it, so the rogue backed down, but the suggestion itself I don't think would be evil in this situation.
suggestion itself I don't think would be evil in this situation.
OK, i'm gonna talk once again with the rogue and make him understand that he can't do anything he want without consequence on his alignment and taht he have to think about it, becasue the lign between the good and the bad is not a thin lign in Pathfinder so...
I might not change someone's alignment from NG to N just for a single torture session, but they'd get a warning, both in game and out of game. I count that as a "strike", and have something like a three-strike-rule, except that it doesn't have to be three - depends on what they do.
I wouldn't necessarily change someone's alignment for using someone's severed head as a warning. Adventuring, like war, is a grizzly thing, and special circumstances require some leeway.
I would give someone another strike for forcing someone on his knees and then murdering him, though.
And you cannot do a coup the grâce unless the person is helpless. Being on your knees is not enough. The guy wouldn't hold still while you take a full 6 seconds to saw through his neck.
A couple of links to aid you in a discussion with your players:
Note lesson number four from the Center for Victims of Torture:
http://www.cvt.org/main.php/Advocacy/TheCampaigntoStopTorture/WhatCVTknowsa boutTorture
Note the last two paragraphs here:
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0120-25.htm
May I ask what's wrong with the application of the intimidate or diplomacy skill? With the use of Zone of Truth and Discern Lies or Speak with Dead on the guy slain? Why role play torturing someone? Why not just go to the roll and move on? As DM, it's your job to fade in and fade out, to go to mechanics or to stay in the moment.
As DM, it's your job to fade in and fade out, to go to mechanics or to stay in the moment.
I dislike GM who decided everything. I’m for the fact to let free PC as free as possible, even if they do some stupid things like tortures and so on, because if they see the evolution or the psychology of their PC like that, that’s their PC and not mine, so even if I dislike acts like torture, they choose to do it, and in that case, some consequences will come!
If the clreic of Sarenrae continues to indulge in torture I would be tempted to have him dream of commiting further tortures but in the name of Zon Kuthon. The cleric wouyld then have the option to see atonemnet or fall further to the dark side....
A couple of links to aid you in a discussion with your players:
Note lesson number four from the Center for Victims of Torture:
If the clreic of Sarenrae continues to indulge in torture I would be tempted to have him dream of commiting further tortures but in the name of Zon Kuthon. The cleric wouyld then have the option to see atonemnet or fall further to the dark side....
I have used dream sequences often for my players to have them self-anaylze their actions.
One of my favorite side encounters was one that did a Total Player Kill .... then they all woke up in a sweat from their "shared" dream.
Sometimes you need to be drastic to get them thinking .. but that also depends upon the group.
- Rose
I dislike GM who decided everything. I’m for the fact to let free PC as free as possible
He didn't say that he wanted the Cosmic Mind Control Ray to stop them from torturing people. He said that he didn't want players to describe this.
It's not everyone's cup of tea to listen to a guy describing how he tortures someone.
Some encounters, like torture, rape, or sexual encounters in general, should definetly not be played out unless everyone at the table is okay with it. (Any good-looking female players who need a male GM to run a game where they want to play a squad of seductresses and temptresses and are eager to roleplay each encounter are welcome to drop me a line ;-))