Simply due to the numbers I am getting I am fairly sure that my understanding of how Flurry-Of-Blows works is flawed.
At any level- but lets consider level 10- the table lists a bonus for Flurry of blows; +8/+8/+3/+3 at our considered level.
Does this stack with-
a. The full BAB which the 'Flurry of Blows' description grants
b. Your strength modifier
c. Weapon focus and the rest?
The table accounts for a) and the TWF penalties.
You need to add the character's Str bonus and other mods, as you would for any other melee attack.
So the table is taking +10/+5 BAB, and adds TWF and Improved TWF, considering the "off-hand" weapon to be light, giving a -2 penalty to all attacks, and two attacks with the "off-hand", leaving us with +8/8/3/3.
Just to be absolutely clear, I'm using the quote marks because the monk gets his full Str bonus to damage with all of those attacks, unlike normal TWF where the off-hand weapon is restricted to half the Str bonus.
Thank you for your very clear answer; I'm glad, my Zen Archer seemed to be hitting far too often.
Happy to help. I'm not as up on the minutiae of some of the rules as some of the people around here, but I've had cause to parse that table in my head a few times, and it kind of sticks with you after a while.
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Quick clarification for me.....can you use Flurry of Blows and Two weapon fighting together? (if this has been discussed before sorry)
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
It seems to me that the description of Flurry of Blows already is using two weapon fighting feat???
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TWF and flurry-of-blows do not stack, period. Even if FoB is ruled to not be a form of TWF, they do not stack.
Since they are both full-attack actions, no they can't stack. Functionally, they both require the character's full attention for the whole round.
And like Gignere said, there's really no benefit to it. By 4th level the Monk can spend a ki point for an extra attack in the flurry. If you take the feat slots you'd spend on TWF and pump them into Extra Ki instead, you can do one extra attack at your highest bonus just about every round.
As far as I'm aware the rules use "as if" to mean "under the defined circumstances, consider the character to".
At least I'm not aware of any rule where that means anything else.
In this case, it means the monk is considered to be able use TWF (and the subsequent feats) when making unarmed strikes and/or using monk weapons. He does not gain those gets as bonus feats, because he would then be able to use them with any weapon, but his ability to emulate them functions identically to the feats, including the general feat rule that the same feat doesn't stack with itself unless specified in the feat description.
Therefore, no, FoB and TWF do not stack, because they are the same thing. Should FoB be ruled to not be TWF, the rule will require a caveat that a monk cannot use TWF when making a FoB, because the monk would be able to gain a truly insane number of attacks (7 from FoB at +18/18/13/13/8/8/3 and 6 from the TWF tree at +13/13/8/8/3/3 (assuming light weapons) - regardless of whether they are monk weapons, if they are used at the +1/level BAB, they would need to be part of the FoB, so would use the monk's normal BAB).
TWF was allowed in 3.5, and it did allow an insane number of attacks. Of course, none of them could hit anything with an AC better than that of a musty old sofa, but it was fun rolling all those attacks. Once. Then it was just frustrating.
Then it got fun again when you were able to make it hit all the time. I recall seeing a 3.5 monk build that could get over 12 shuriken in one round, and all would hit most enemies. With strength out the wazoo...ouch!
Flurry of Blows IS Two-Weapon Fighting. All Flurry of Blows is for a monk is that monk using Two-Weapon Fighting with the following changes:
1. While using Flurry of Blows, a monk has good BAB instead of medium.
2. All attacks do 1x strength. There are no off hand attacks.
3. A flurry of Blows can only be performed with a list of special weapons or unarmed strikes.
The Flurry of Blows numbers given basically only change the Monk's BAB to equal their Monk level and then apply Two-Weapon Fighting. Those numbers are simply your BAB during a Flurry.
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Then it got fun again when you were able to make it hit all the time. I recall seeing a 3.5 monk build that could get over 12 shuriken in one round, and all would hit most enemies. With strength out the wazoo...ouch!
1d2 + Strength that is either rolled or low because you are using your Dex bonus to attack? And at the level you have 12 attacks, everything has reach so the range of shuriken might as well be Melee.
So if you have a 20 strength you average 6.5 points of damage a hit?
Not trying to be snarky, but unless I am missing extra bonuses, damage out the wazoo may be a bit overstated.
Saying that a monk is considered to have the TWF feats for the purpose of FoB is overcomplicating the issue. He has FoB. The base attack, number of attacks, and damage are all listed so no need to worry about the feats.
A TWF attack takes a full round but is a different type of attack than FoB even though they both take a full round. If the Monk wants to take and benefit from TWF feats, he may only use them when taking a normal full round attack action, not FoB. Simple.
Flurry of Blows IS Two-Weapon Fighting.
No it's not. It was originally meant to be, but nobody treated it as such. Then Paizo tried to clarify it, and it was pointed out that NONE of their own designers had used it as such in all the state blocks, so they retratced the clarification. It's up for review, which basically means for now, it's up to your DM.
A few more interesting questions might be does the extra attack in a flurry (from spending ki) stack with haste or similar effects? And can you put speed property on an amulet of mighty fists?
MA
A few more interesting questions might be does the extra attack in a flurry (from spending ki) stack with haste or similar effects? And can you put speed property on an amulet of mighty fists?
MA
An excellent question, and I see no reason why the extra attack from Ki wouldn't stack with Haste. Likewise there is no reason you shouldn't be able to put Speed on an Amulet of Might Fists.
Unless of course Paizo really does hate Monks.
Flurry of Blows IS Two-Weapon Fighting.No it's not. It was originally meant to be, but nobody treated it as such. Then Paizo tried to clarify it, and it was pointed out that NONE of their own designers had used it as such in all the state blocks, so they retratced the clarification. It's up for review, which basically means for now, it's up to your DM.
I clearly don't see what you're talking about. In 3e and 3.5, monks had FoB, which looked nothing like TWF. It was just like 'When making Full Attacks, use this instead of your normal base attack.' and then gave you a bunch of numbers.
In Pathfinder, quite literally, to figure out what your 'base attack' is during FoB, all you have to do is change your base attack to equal your monk level and apply TWF. BAM, you have the number listed under FoB. Then, once 6th level rolls around, they get a third attack because of their FoB base attack hits +6. 8th level, they get a fourth attack. Why? The monk's normal BAB meets the prereqs for Improved TWF. Imagine that.
So it is exactly the same as TWF as written, whether they review it or not. I think your DM would be silly if he/she claimed it wasn't.
Edit: Also, the wording of FoB is "When doing so he may make one additional attack ... as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat)."
Flurry of Blows IS Two-Weapon Fighting.No it's not. It was originally meant to be, but nobody treated it as such. Then Paizo tried to clarify it, and it was pointed out that NONE of their own designers had used it as such in all the state blocks, so they retratced the clarification. It's up for review, which basically means for now, it's up to your DM.I clearly don't see what you're talking about. In 3e and 3.5, monks had FoB, which looked nothing like TWF. It was just like 'When making Full Attacks, use this instead of your normal base attack.' and then gave you a bunch of numbers.
In Pathfinder, quite literally, to figure out what your 'base attack' is during FoB, all you have to do is change your base attack to equal your monk level and apply TWF. BAM, you have the number listed under FoB. Then, once 6th level rolls around, they get a third attack because of their FoB base attack hits +6. 8th level, they get a fourth attack. Why? The monk's normal BAB meets the prereqs for Improved TWF. Imagine that.
So it is exactly the same as TWF as written, whether they review it or not. I think your DM would be silly if he/she claimed it wasn't.
Edit: Also, the wording of FoB is "When doing so he may make one additional attack ... as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat)."
Except for . . .
1. That pesky little phrase "in any combination" that appears in flurry of blows and does not appear in Two-Weapon Fighting, which has a very specific combination. And . . .
2. That monks do not have an off-hand for unarmed strikes (so how again are they supposed to use unarmed strikes as an off-hand weapon?). And . . .
3. The folks who write Paizo's adventure paths and modules have published every last single monk NPC showing the use of single weapon flurry, not two-weapon flurry. There is not one published monk NPC (to the best of my knowledge) anywhere in Pathfinder material, who actually uses two weapons. Their flurry attack routine is detailed with a single weapon (manufactured or unarmed strike) only.
MA
Except for . . .
1. That pesky little phrase "in any combination" that appears in flurry of blows and does not appear in Two-Weapon Fighting, which has a very specific combination. And . . .
2. That monks do not have an off-hand for unarmed strikes (so how again are they supposed to use unarmed strikes as an off-hand weapon?). And . . .
3. The folks who write Paizo's adventure paths and modules have published every last single monk NPC showing the use of single weapon flurry, not two-weapon flurry. There is not one published monk NPC (to the best of my...
Number 1 is true, but irrelevant to the argument. Plus I'm PRETTY sure it doesn't matter in what order you make your attacks while two-weapon fighting, so long as you make the appropriate number of attacks at the appropriate BAB. Number two I already mentioned in my first post on the matter, but again. Irrelevant. And finally, yes. They can use only a single weapon. But it still IS two-weapon fighting. Just with one weapon. I'm being absolutely technical here. Sure fighting with one weapon isn't two-weapon fighting. But RAW, to a monk it is.
Lastly, it should be mentioned that all of this was just me saying "Nope. Doesn't stack. Because who would try using TWF and TWF at the same time?"
I feel it's disingenuous to claim that a monk fighting unarmed is only using a single weapon when the description of unarmed attack explicitly mentions multiple variations (punches, kicks, headbutts).
I am of the school of thought that unarmed strike is a single weapon, with the variations being only FLUFF. You don't have a punch attack, a kick attack, a headbutt attack, an elbow attack, and a knee attack, each of which have to be enchanted seperately; you have a single unarmed strike, which you may perform with any of those bodyparts.
Unarmed strikes are not natural attacks, nor are they manufactured weapons. They are a single special attack form available to humanoid creatures.
Master Arminas