| Hexamony |
I need some advice. This is my first Society character, and I'm worried about making bad choices. I've searched around, asked others, and I think I'm pretty close to feeling confident in Kemp Oddward, but going with a round of asking the fine folks that haunt the forums for one last pass at my plan.
Specifically, I seek advice on Abilities, Feats, Traits, and Spells. I'm going towards an Archery-build, but I don't know the Point-Blank Shot feat chain, or when best to take different feats or Rogue's Tricks.
Thoughts on Abilities
Set 1: Str 12, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 15 - Original, pre-advice
Set 2: Str 8, Dex 18, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16
Set 3: Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 15 - Current Choice
Traits
Definitely taking Vagabond Child for the Disable Device skill. Kemp was going to be Grand Lodge for thematic reasons, but Osirion was suggested instead. Not sure what to take for second trait.
| andreww |
The main problem I see going down the archery route is that it is very feat intensive and you really don't get many. As far as your stat lines go I would be tempted to dump wisdom a bit to free up some points and then take the Irrepressible trait. It allows you to use your Charisma in place of your Wisdom for saves against charms and compulsions, which covers the majority of Will saves.
| lemeres |
The main problem I see going down the archery route is that it is very feat intensive and you really don't get many. As far as your stat lines go I would be tempted to dump wisdom a bit to free up some points and then take the Irrepressible trait. It allows you to use your Charisma in place of your Wisdom for saves against charms and compulsions, which covers the majority of Will saves.
What? Well, an archaeologist has as many feats as a rogue in this case, since you get rogue talents every 4 levels. Heck, they are better off than inquisitors too, since those do not get any style relevant bonus feats at all, and they are considered good archers. With all the bonuses from archaeologist's luck, they can be great too.
Here is a question though: do you need that much DEX? As a small character, you get a +1 to attack rolls, so you could lower it to 16 and be generally on par with a medium character with 18 DEX. That would help open up your point buy a bit more.
And of course, as someone that loves archaeologists: have you considered the fate's favored trait and the lingering performance feat? Fate's favored gives a +1 to luck bonuses....and as an archaeologist, you get those to your attack, damage, saves, and skills. At level 1, it means you would get a +2 to all that (making it fairly much on par with a barbarian's rage...but applicable to bows) In many ways, it helps much more than the bonus to disable device, since it helps in every thing you can do. Also, you have an ability that gives you half your level in bonus to disable device; is vagabond child really needed?
The lingering performance feat is far more important though.
Since your luck ability counts as performance for most effects, you can take feats and such which help performance, and this in fact helps you. The only drawback to the archaeologist's luck is that it DOES NOT increases your rounds per day of use. That means you would be stuck with only 6 rounds normally. But lingering performance is a feat that allows a performance's effect to continue for 2 rounds after you use it (so it triples your effective rounds, since you use a round, let it linger, and then use again if things aren't dead)
| Hexamony |
That's why I'm asking more experienced folk, lemeres. :)
Yes, I probably don't need that much DEX, but what would I put the points into otherwise? More CON?
Unfortunately, I don't have Ultimate Campaign, so I can't take that trait. I'm limited to CRB, APG, UC, and UM. Bestiary, too, but I doubt that has anything useful for Society characters.
Yeah, Lingering Performance has come up frequently while I look up Archaeologist Bards, and not opposed to taking it. I would just need a better idea of what feats I want, what Rogue's Tricks, and when.
As for Disable Device, I may have some confusion there. Yes, at 2nd level, I'll have an ability that gives me a bonus to disable device, but I don't think that it will make that skill a class skill for me. Better to put ranks into class skills, isn't it?
| Matt2VK |
If you grab the Lingering Performance feat, be sure you have the source material for the Archeologist as a lot of these Bard Archetypes do not work with Lingering Performance.
If you're going with a range build, you might want to think about dropping your CON down to a 10. Then put your favored class points into health.
Those extra points I'd probably put into your CHA. That extra CHA bonus will make more of a difference then those few extra HP probably will.
Traits - I'd seriously look for one of the traits that give +1 to Fort. I believe there is one in those sources you have available, just not sure what it's called. As Fort is your bad save and you'll have a low CON.
I'd also think about grabbing the +2 Initiative trait. Most of your defense's will be coming from your DEX and being flat footed will be a pain.
You don't really need the Trait: Vagabond Child for the Disable Device skill as you will be getting it at 2nd level.
| lemeres |
That's why I'm asking more experienced folk, lemeres. :)
Yes, I probably don't need that much DEX, but what would I put the points into otherwise? More CON?
Unfortunately, I don't have Ultimate Campaign, so I can't take that trait. I'm limited to CRB, APG, UC, and UM. Bestiary, too, but I doubt that has anything useful for Society characters.
Yeah, Lingering Performance has come up frequently while I look up Archaeologist Bards, and not opposed to taking it. I would just need a better idea of what feats I want, what Rogue's Tricks, and when.
As for Disable Device, I may have some confusion there. Yes, at 2nd level, I'll have an ability that gives me a bonus to disable device, but I don't think that it will make that skill a class skill for me. Better to put ranks into class skills, isn't it?
Yeah, I was thinking that fate's favored was available (somehow, I missed the first letters of the thread title and ended up thinking this was a character for a path, with only one free trait), and I was probably thinking too far ahead in the long run. Yeah, it does take 8 levels to make up for that difference, and that is not useful in PFS, I'll admit.
Still, getting to keep up what luck you do have for a good long time is useful, so lingering performance is useful.
keerawa
|
I played an Archaeologist bard up to 12 in PFS play, and had a wonderful time. I personally went the melee, Dervish Dancer route, but archery is a fine plan, too.
I HIGHLY recommend Lingering Performance, but you are going to find low-level archery very frustrating until you can get Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Maybe you can convince your party to leave firing lanes open for you, or always attack the critter on the left, and let you take the one on the right?
It is peculiar that Disable Device isn't a class skill, so feel free to take the trait for +4 to a class skill that can save your life.
Another trait option, in PFS play, is Maestro of the Society. 3 extra rounds of performance can make a difference for an archaeologist!
I would, personally, get 17 dex at level 1 and put the extra points into con, or even wis or int. The point buy system makes it cheap to get those small boosts, and they can pay off.
For rogue tricks, I took Trap Spotter, and then Ninja Trick to get Wall Climber. Not over-powered, but fun.
Enjoy!
| Matt2VK |
If this is for PFS play, Lingering Performance isn't really worth the feat slot.
PFS play, on average, 2 to 4 fight encounters with each encounter running around 3 to 4 rounds. So about 12 rounds of Archs Luck you need up.
At 1st level you'll start with 4+CHA modifier and then get 2 more every level afterwards. So by around level 4, you shouldn't need any extra rounds of Luck that Lingering Performance brings.
The feats/Traits that extend/give extra rounds, are very nice during the first couple of levels but then their usefulness drops off fast.
About Trait: Vagabond Child for the Disable Device skill. I goofed in my earlier post. Thought Archaeologist a actually gave you Disable Device as a class skill, which it doesn't.
With the amount of traps and Disable Device skill check in PFS play (low), it's a personal call on if you want to use a trait for 4 extra skill ranks for Disable Device. As at 2nd level you can disable mechanical and at 6th can disable magical traps. You just don't have those extra skill ranks you'd normally have if it was a class skill.
keerawa
|
If this is for PFS play, Lingering Performance isn't really worth the feat slot.
PFS play, on average, 2 to 4 fight encounters with each encounter running around 3 to 4 rounds. So about 12 rounds of Archs Luck you need up.
At 1st level you'll start with 4+CHA modifier and then get 2 more every level afterwards.
Matt - RAW, Archaeologists do NOT get additional rounds of Luck as they level up, unlike other flavors of bard. They only ever get 4+CHA rounds/day. So anything that adds bonus rounds, like the Maestro trait, Lingering Performance, and favored class bonuses, is valuable to them.
I also like to have rounds available for out-of-combat skill checks.
| lemeres |
Matt2VK wrote:If this is for PFS play, Lingering Performance isn't really worth the feat slot.
PFS play, on average, 2 to 4 fight encounters with each encounter running around 3 to 4 rounds. So about 12 rounds of Archs Luck you need up.
At 1st level you'll start with 4+CHA modifier and then get 2 more every level afterwards.Matt - RAW, Archaeologists do NOT get additional rounds of Luck as they level up, unlike other flavors of bard. They only ever get 4+CHA rounds/day. So anything that adds bonus rounds, like the Maestro trait, Lingering Performance, and favored class bonuses, is valuable to them.
I also like to have rounds available for out-of-combat skill checks.
Well, balance-wise, it is easy to understand why they chose not to scale rounds. It is basically inspire courage, but faster and with a lot larger range. Very powerful, even if you can't share it with friends. Especially if you can get fate's favored, which turns it into a rage-like boost.
That, and the fact that lingering performance solves the problem so simply, makes it pretty reasonable for it not to increase each level. I mean, with just a decent CHA score of 14, you get 6 base rounds, which translates to 18 effective rounds each day. And as Matt said, a lot of games do not go on long enough for you to really spend that in battle (well, you might also spend them out of battle on skill checks)
| Matt2VK |
Matt2VK wrote:If this is for PFS play, Lingering Performance isn't really worth the feat slot.
PFS play, on average, 2 to 4 fight encounters with each encounter running around 3 to 4 rounds. So about 12 rounds of Archs Luck you need up.
At 1st level you'll start with 4+CHA modifier and then get 2 more every level afterwards.Matt - RAW, Archaeologists do NOT get additional rounds of Luck as they level up, unlike other flavors of bard. They only ever get 4+CHA rounds/day. So anything that adds bonus rounds, like the Maestro trait, Lingering Performance, and favored class bonuses, is valuable to them.
Thanks for the correction. Thought it played like the other flavor of Bards. Looked at the class but ended up going with the Dervish of Dawn Archetype instead with my Halfling Dancer.
| Tengu Verymuch |
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I am not familiar with PFS rules, so, some of my suggestions may not be legal.
"Fates Favored" trait is a MUST. There is no reason you wouldn't want to improve your bonuses by an extra +1.
The second trait is up to you. Both Matt2VK's suggestion for that extra initiative ("Reactionary") or keerawa's suggestion for "Maestro the Society" are excellent suggestions. I would go with the latter for the extra 3 rounds of Archaeologist Luck.
I learned about Lingering Performance could be applied to Archaeologist Luck on these boards actually. Again, there is no reason to not accept extra opportunities to use your luck. I have to disagree on Matt2VK's point of vue of "Lingering Performance" usefulness in low combat games. Bards are usually the group's skill monkey and Archaeologist Luck can be used on skill checks, so even if the game lacks combat encounters, extra uses of luck is never a bad thing.
I also built an halfling archaeologist and I went with a dip into Ranger with Wild Stalker and Trapper archetypes. The Trapper archetype gives you Disable Device (and "Trapfinding") as a class skill without spending a trait for it , and the Wild Stalker archetype gives you nice perception bonuses with "Strong Senses".
"Strong Senses (Ex): At 1st level, a wild stalker's life among the wild has sharpened his senses. He gains low-light vision and a +1 bonus on Perception checks. If he already has low-light vision, he gains a +2 bonus on Perception checks instead. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 1st..."
A level dip into Ranger also gives you the same number of skill points as a bard, +1 BAB, +1 on REF and FORT saves, access to better armor and weapons, tracking.
I would keep DEX at 18 and go for the archery option as the OP. The bard was always meant as a support character, not a frontliner. Plus, a halfling with high DEX makes a VERY stealthy scout, adding extra trapfinding, better perception/senses, and tracking only makes sense.
| Hexamony |
And I'm still uncertain about how to proceed. :p
For feats, it seems agreed I will eventually want Lingering Performance, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Weapon Finesse. At level 4, I can use my first Rogue Talent to take Finesse Rogue. I'm not sure what other Rogue Talents I would want at later levels, but nothing else covers a vital feat for a bard.
So the question is this. Do I take Point-Blank Shot at level 1 or Lingering Performance? I assume I would take the other at level 3, then precise shot last. What would I want at 9? (Level 9 seems so far away for a Society character, but I will plan ahead.)
I'll have to mull over traits, but I still can't take "Fates Favored" since I don't own the book that it comes in.
And, no one has mentioned Spells. I know I'll take Saving Finale at 1st, but as to what else is good/useful for Society games, I'm not sure.
| galahad2112 |
Honestly, the ranger dip is not a bad way to go...The thing is, 2 levels in it are REALLY nice, since you can choose to take precise shot without needing to take point-blank as a prerequisite. And the Trapper archetype is in UM, so it should be available to you.
Also, ultimate campaign is only like 10 bucks as a pdf. If you have more than a passing interest in playing this character (i.e. you'd really like to see lv.10+), it's a very worthwhile investment.
Still, lingering performance is GOLD for a first level feat. It basically means that you ALWAYS have your luck going in combat EVERY ENCOUNTER.
As far as spells are concerned, there really aren't any that stand out. The best spell (i.e. not as good in wand form) is feather fall, since the casting time is an immediate action. Grease is another very popular choice, but, again, a wand is very nearly as good. Same with CLW, Comprehend Languages, etc. BTW, saving finale really isn't that great, as you'll have to end your bardic performance, which you CAN'T DO when using lingering perform....So, you'd have to keep performing, burning away your 6-7 rounds VERY fast, on the off chance that someone fails a save, REALLY needs a re-roll, and DOESN'T have a shirt or character folio or some such. That's AWFULLY situational.
| Matt2VK |
I've made some assumptions that this class played like a normal bard. Of which I was wrong.
Traits -
Maestro the Society - if you have the book.
Vagabond Child - you want to have disable device as a class skill (get 4 extra ranks in it. I don't consider (my opinion) this to be a good choice)
I would grab one of the Traits that give +1 Fort saves. There's a couple of them with different names. Not sure which you would have books too. This will help vs the poison and diseases your character will face.
The +2 Initiative Trait is always a good standby but with a high dex character it's not really needed. If you do plan on using spells for group buffs it can really help.
My suggestion is go to the advice section of these forums, click on the sticky - Guide to the Guides. and then scroll down and look at the - A Guide to Traits. Lots of good info in there to help you decide for traits.
Feats
If you grabbed the Maestro of the Society, I'd hold off on Lingering Performance and grab the archery feats as soon as possible. Taking a -8 to hit is painful when shutting through a ally.
Spells
Cords of Shards - This is a AoE spell that does good damage and since it's AoE is useful against swarms. You'll develop a hatred of swarms in PFS as they are nasty.
Cure Light Wounds is always handy.
Saving Finale is almost worthless because the person has to be under the effect of your Bardic Performance.
Beguiling Gift can be nasty but it depends on the GM. Cast the spell and hand the target some handcuffs. Next round watch them put those handcuffs on.
| master_marshmallow |
Remember that for the Archaologist you can pick up Weapon Finesse at 4th level by taking the rogue talent for it.
One could recommend taking it at 1st level, and rocking a rapier or short sword, then at 4th level retrain it using the retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign into Weapon Focus while you take Finesse Rogue and keep your Weapon Finesse.
A dip into Divine Hunter for a level or two may not be bad either, CHA to saves, free Precise Shot, and a smite to throw out there once a day.
Magda Luckbender
|
Note that, in PFS play, ownership of a PDF copy of a Paizo book is acceptable. Fate's Favored is in Ultimate Campaigns, which is $39.99 in Hardcover or $9.99 for the PDF. The PDFs come watermarked with your name, which makes their content legal for PFS. Bring the PDFs with you to games in case you are ever audited.
| Hexamony |
Alas, $10 is a luxury I lack right now. Though, I hope to run Pathfinder in a few months, and Ultimate Campaign sounds like a great resource. We'll see what happens on that front.
I don't think Chord of Shards works for an Archaeologist Bard, but I am suddenly reminded I need to find a way to deal with swarms. Seems I've read Society adventures just love them.
Kemp is Neutral Good, so Paladin dips won't be possible. Ranger dips sound interesting, but only add to the complexity and confusion of building this character.
Seems the Resilient Trait is also in Ultimate Campaign.
For Maestro of the Society, is the Pathfinder Field Guide still a viable resource? It seems kind of old, and the reviews leave me wondering. Plus, that pesky lack of funds again to buy new books right now.
Based on the feedback about spells, I may be uncertain what my role in combat will be. Can anyone enlighten me?