I had a thought as I was playing around with the Holy Vindicator PRC as well as it's prerequisite, Alignment Channel. Alignment Channel allows characters to affect outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype with their channel energy... but what about other outsiders?
I can't find anything in the rules regarding this. The (Native) subtype only allows creatures to be raised and requires them to eat, breathe and sleep. Does this mean that the ever-lauded Aasimar Cleric can't even channel to heal himself? Are Sylphs immune to an evil cleric's channels? Or am I missing something here?
I had a thought as I was playing around with the Holy Vindicator PRC as well as it's prerequisite, Alignment Channel. Alignment Channel allows characters to affect outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype with their channel energy... but what about other outsiders?
I can't find anything in the rules regarding this. The (Native) subtype only allows creatures to be raised and requires them to eat, breathe and sleep. Does this mean that the ever-lauded Aasimar Cleric can't even channel to heal himself? Are Sylphs immune to an evil cleric's channels? Or am I missing something here?
Honestly? I don't see the difference between the separate Outsiders. I can see why players say that the effect works one way and that others plays say it works another way. The thing is, it does not specify.
I would have to say that in my personal opinion (and can be supported by RAW) that it affects Outsiders of all types (not all alignments, but all types), since it does not make a discrepency to affect only separate/different types of Outsiders.
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Channel Energy affects living creatures and undead creatures. Outsiders are alive and are thus affected by channel energy.
Before you ask 'Then why does Alignment channel exist?' It exists because Channel Positive Energy does not harm outsiders. This allows a Cleric to harm outsiders of a specific alignment subtype. Channel Negative Energy only harms outsiders, this would allow Clerics to heal outsiders of a specific alignment subtype.
This also means that Outsiders without an alignment subtype are Healed or Harmed normally (ie: only with normal uses of Channel Positive Energy or Channel Negative Energy).
- Gauss
Design Manager
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I think the ability is mainly geared towards allowing you to narrow the focus of your heal/harm with channel energy. Since an evil or neutral cleric channeling to harm living would normally damage his party members in the affected area as well, he can instead focus it to harm only appropriate Outsiders. The same would be true of a good cleric wanting to channel to heal without healing enemies in the affected area (though that use is probably substantially less uesful in less your party is full of the appropriate type of Outsider). It's not an expansion on the traditional ability, it's a variant use.
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Ssalarn: Alignment Channel is not limited to the type of Channel Energy you have.
If I channel Positive Energy I can take Alignment Channel (Evil) and use my Channels to damage Evil (subtype) outsiders. OR I can use one of my Channels to Heal Evil (subtype) outsiders although this would probably be a violation of my alignment.
- Gauss
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Design Manager
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Ssalarn: Alignment Channel is not limited to the type of Channel Energy you have.
If I channel Positive Energy I can take Alignment Channel (Evil) and use my Channels to damage Evil (subtype) outsiders. OR I can use one of my Channels to Heal Evil (subtype) outsiders although this would probably be a violation of my alignment.
- Gauss
I get that, I was just trying to use those as examples of situations where the ability would be "useful" to have.
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There's nothing in the Alignment Channel feat text that limits its affected creatures to just extraplanar outsiders or just native outsiders, therefore it affects outsiders of either subtype.
Sslarn: :) Just wanted to be clear so there was no confusion for the other readers.
- Gauss
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Channels affect all living or undead creatures (depending on your choices).
Outsiders (with the exception of a few undead), native or not, are living creatures, so they are healed by positive channelling or harmed by negative channelling.
The undead outsiders are harmed by positive channelling and cured by negative channelling.
The difference of taking Alignment channel is that you can use it to affect all the outsiders of the chosen alignment in the area of your channelling burst without affecting non outsiders.
So if you are fighting a bunch of demons with undead, outsiders minions you can fire a damaging channel vs chaotic outsiders that:
- will not damage your friends,
- will not damage your undead minions
- will not damage your LE tiefling friend
and
- will damage the demons
- will damage the undead, chaotic outsiders.
Same thing, in reverse, if you want to heal the outsiders without healing the prime material plane people.
Edit: I was too slow typing.
Sean K Reynolds:
I agree with your statement with one caviat: If a Native outsider does not have an alignment subtype then Alignment Channel will not affect it. Alignment Channel only affects outsiders with an alignment subtype.
Many Native Outsiders do not have an alignment subtype.
Edit: Nice to see you posting. :)
- Gauss
Got it, thanks for clearing that up(though this makes Alignment Channel seem even less useful than before. )
Sean H: why would it make Alignment Channel less useful?
- Gauss
Well, if you can already heal/harm outsiders depending on what channel you use, you're spending a feat just to do the other to a simple alignment subtype, when Versatile Channel would allow you to do the other to everything. Granted, Versatile has the character alignment prerequisites, but other than that it just seems better.
Well, if you can already heal/harm outsiders depending on what channel you use, you're spending a feat just to do the other to a simple alignment subtype, when Versatile Channel would allow you to do the other to everything. Granted, Versatile has the character alignment prerequisites, but other than that it just seems better.
But Aligned channel harms based on alignment, not based on whether they're living or undead, which is what normal channel does. You can't normally harm outsiders by channeling positive energy and you can't normally heal outsiders by channeling negative energy. This feat allows what kind of energy you channel to not matter. And a cleric can only choose to channel positive or negative at the beginning of her career.
Not to mention with Versatile Channeling the second form of channeling is less effective (-2 effective level on the channel).
Good Cleric: would take Alignment channel (evil) to harm Evil (subtype) outsiders.
Evil Cleric: might take Alignment channel (good) to harm Good (subtype) outsiders. Might take Alignment channel (evil) to heal Evil (subtype) outsiders.
Now, Elemental Channel is extremely limited in who would take it.
If you use CPE: If you want to heal Elementals, use your normal Channel Positive Energy. Harming Elementals is not usually a common enough issue to warrant a feat.
If you use CNE: If you want to heal Elementals then this feat is for you (perhaps you summon them alot). If you want to Harm Elementals you have CNE that can do that.
IE: Only one small niche needs this, CNE users that summon alot of elementals.
- Gauss
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Sean K Reynolds:
I agree with your statement with one caviat: If a Native outsider does not have an alignment subtype then Alignment Channel will not affect it. Alignment Channel only affects outsiders with an alignment subtype.
Many Native Outsiders do not have an alignment subtype.
Many extraplanar outsiders do not have an alignment subtype, either (efreet, for example, are evil extraplanar outsiders who don't have the evil subtype). :)
So my statement of:
is still true. "Native" or "extraplanar" is irrelevant to the effects of the feat, only the alignment subtype matters. The feat affects outsiders of either native or extraplanar subtype, so long as the outsider meets the triggering effect of the feat (having an alignment subtype).
Or, to put it another way, "native" and "extraplanar" are as irrelevant to the subtype as "fire" or "air" are. :)
Well, if you can already heal/harm outsiders depending on what channel you use, you're spending a feat just to do the other to a simple alignment subtype, when Versatile Channel would allow you to do the other to everything. Granted, Versatile has the character alignment prerequisites, but other than that it just seems better.
Alignment channel also doesn't have the number-of-targets limitation that selective channel has. So if you know you're going to be in a demon-heavy campaign, and your group has a lot of cohorts, animal companions, summoned creatures, and so on, Alignment Channel (evil) may be a better feat than Selective Channel.
SKR: I wasn't trying to disagree with you. Only apply a qualifier to prevent confusion. :)
- Gauss
I know. :) I'm saying the qualifier isn't necessary. :)
I suppose summoned creatures with the celestial / fiendish template are another example? Although I guess they aren't outsiders either.
SKR: I am SHOCKED Sir! ;) You of all people should realize that if you don't spell things out for people they often take it completely wrong. How often do you run into that problem? :D
Hehehehe
- Gauss
Cheapy, they are neither outsiders nor do they gain an alignment subtype from the template. *Sighs* I houserule both that yes, they are outsiders and yes, they do have the alignment subtype appropriate to the template.
- Gauss
Are there any outsiders who have both the alignment sub-type and an alignment sub-type?
David: could you restate the question please? You basically just asked if there were any outsiders that have an alignment subtype. Answer, yes. Some outsiders have alignment subtypes.
- Gauss
I suppose summoned creatures with the celestial / fiendish template are another example? Although I guess they aren't outsiders either.
wouldn't the templates make them outsider?
Ryu: you'd think so but no.
Type:
3.5 the templates changed them to magical beasts that when on the material plane acquired the extra-planar subtype (not outsider).
PF lists the change in the spell as extraplanar magical beast also (not outsider).
Alignment:
3.5: Alignment changed to match the template type (evil for fiendish, good for celestial). No alignment subtypes though.
PF: While summoned template creatures change alignments to match your own they do not gain alignment sub-types (which is weird because if you summon a fiendish creature and you are neutral it is neutral).
So: Alignment channel fails on two fronts with summoned creatures with templates. First, they are not outsiders. Second they have no alignment subtype.
Additionally, there is another feat (Sacred Summons) that is almost completely useless because of summoned creatures with templates not possessing alignment subtypes.
- Gauss
I think the first sentence of Summon monster needs to be revised. Extraplanar seems to be used colloquially, and animals are summoned, not magical beasts. At least, the templates don't change their types at all.
Good point Cheapy. The spell states magical beasts. The creatures actually summoned are animals. 3.5 templates changed them to magical beasts. PF templates have no such statement.
- Gauss