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I guess I have two Questions. One can anyone with improved unarmed strike two weapon fight with their fists? Like an unarmed fighter, is there anything stopping them from two weapon fighting?
That leads to my next question, is there anything stopping a monk who takes an arch type that replaces flurry of blows from just taking the two weapon fighting feats? I know they wouldn't get full bab with those attacks like a monk normally would but is it possible?
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The only downside to TWF without the feat is the -6/-10 you take on your attacks. These go to -4/-4 with TWF (if I understand it correctly). Hands are light weapons, so they go to -2/-2.
Monks can take TWF feats just like any other class who has combat feats available. Nothing stopping them at all.
Improved TWF allows a second attack (BAB +6/+6;+1/+1) (and the -2/-2 to begin with) with your offhand.
Greater TWF gives you a third attack (BAB +11/+11/;+6/+6;+1/+1).
I don't see much mitigating the -2/-2 modifier. There used to be an ambidextrous feat that removed 2 more from the attack mod. Don't know where it went. Weapon Focus takes care of 1. But Greater Weapon Focus requires Fighter class level 8.
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If you TWF with your fists and don't have the TWF feat you take penalties at -4 & -8 as your 'offhand' is considered light.
Remember if you're BAB is +6 you gain an iterative attack at +1. You can make this iterative attack with your other hand (regardless if it's holding a weapon or not) and not suffer the TWF penalties.
The TWF penalties are only applied if you are making an additional attack over and above the number of attacks normally allowed by your BAB.
You can TWF with unarmed strikes.
You can only use one off-hand weapon though, so you can't mix in an unarmed strike with two other weapons. Kicking is possible if you are using a two-handed weapon (or just one actual weapon), however. The only limits to TWF are, not surprisingly, having a maximum of two weapons.
This is false you can use as many weapons as you want the only limit is the number of extra attacks.
You get your normal set of attacks and one extra for TWF one for ITWF and one for GTWF. At no point however are you limited in weapons.
At 6th level with TWF and ITWF you could attack main hand with an axe at your +4 attack off hand with a punch at +4. Kick a guy main hand at -1 and then quick draw and throw a dagger with your off hand at -1
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An unarmed strike is one weapon. You cannot two weapon fight with unarmed strikes alone.
I already created a thread awhile back addressing this issue, this was the end result.
This is incorrect. The most obvious example is the Greater Brawler Rage Power, which gives you Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting with unarmed strikes.
I don't know what thread you are talking about that reached this conclusion, but a search of your post history turned up this thread and this one, where the majority disagreed with your assertion.
An unarmed strike is intact one weapon. However a character who holds nothing in their hands has 2 unarmed weapons (aka fists). So a character can TWF with 2 unarmed weapons they possess.
I will however point out that feet, knees, elbows, heads and other body parts could alsobe considered unarmed weapons. For the sake of sanity, those I play with are only allowed to use hands (unless a monk or other specific unarmed fighter) and when using TWF must define the 2 weapons they are using.
Also forgot, one may still use an unarmed attack with TWF but will face AoO unless they have IUA.
There used to be an ambidextrous feat that removed 2 more from the attack mod. Don't know where it went. Weapon Focus takes care of 1. But Greater Weapon Focus requires Fighter class level 8.
It got folded into the TWF feat. In 3.0, all the TWF feat did was reduce the offhand penalty by 4, and had no effect on your main hand attacks. Ambidextrous reduced both hands' penalty by 2.
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If an unarmed strike is not one weapon, then you could just use vermin shape to change into a spider and get 9 attacks. One for each leg, and a bite.
In fact, you can just be a tiefling with a vestigial arm(not the discovery) and take multiweapon fighting, then attack with 5 unarmed strikes.
That is not correct. Unarmed strikes go off of BAB so you would be limited to your BAB for the number of leg attacks. As for the bite it is a natural attack, and not influenced by BAB.
It is not so much that unarmed strike is one weapon that allows you to use you to headbutt, knee, or kick someone. The idea is that headbutting, kneeing, and kicking are all unarmed strikes.
Unarmed strike is one those weird cases where it is treated as one weapon for some cases, but it still qualifies for TWF. The fact that the monk can TWF while using only unarmed strikes shows that.
What they should have done was said that for the purpose of enhancements it counts as one weapon, but for the purpose of TWF it does not since that is how it plays out.
There are no monk rules that say the monk gets an exception as to whether or not it gets to treat unarmed strikes differently with regard to TWF'ing. In fact the idea that two weapons must be used only reinforces that the monk is supposed to use the TWF rules for weapons.
Monk is an exception. The "any combination" part of flurry shows that it is.
If that were true then monks would not be required to use two different weapons, which is what my last post was referring to. That is why the temple sword can't be used in a flurry by itself. The "any combination" interpretation which is what most of us were using until the devs said it was incorrect, is what caused the monk issue a few weeks ago.
Any combination does not mean you can only use one monk weapon in a flurry, so the monk does not get a free pass if unarmed strikes are really one weapon.
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Flurry is a huge undecided mess right now. Let's walk away from that.
Now, why is the unarmed strike a weapon that you can two weapon fight with alone?
Why does it get the exception to the rules?
If a human can two weapon fight with unarmed strike, then so can a naga and ooze.
If not, why are humanoids an exception to the rules?
Do creatures with more limbs get more unarmed strikes?
Flurry is a huge undecided mess right now. Let's walk away from that.
Now, why is the unarmed strike a weapon that you can two weapon fight with alone?
Why does it get the exception to the rules?
If a human can two weapon fight with unarmed strike, then so can a naga and ooze.
If not, why are humanoids an exception to the rules?
Do creatures with more limbs get more unarmed strikes?
I never saw IUS as one weapon. Each body part can make an unarmed strike.
My issue with it is that one spell can enchant it as a whole, and one feat can boost it. *Well actually I don't mind it for monks, but it should have been spelled out better.I never never naga's and oozes's can TWF with unarmed strikes. They just need the body parts to do so. I would say a naga could headbutt, and use its tail even though tails are not listed in the combat chapter as an unarmed attack weapon.
What do you mean by get more unarmed attacks? If you mean have more limbs to use to make an unarmed attack with then the answer is yes.
If you are asking do they get to make more attacks then no. That was covered in my response to your spider question.
edit: see *
Ah, but do non-monks using TWF unarmed attacks get to use their full str bonus on all attacks, and how does the Power Attack main-hand/off-hand distinction interact with unarmed attacks?
Yes they do get to use their full strength if they are flurrying because it is called specifically called out.
The Power Attack bonus has nothing to do with how much strength you get to use. It only cares about off-hand attacks, and primary attacks. Since FoB still have off-hand attacks then those attacks do less damage with flurry of blows.
Wraithstrike can you link me to wherever the devs said that?
I will have to look for it. Better yet I will link you to threads that came about as a result of it. They are a lot easier to find.
Flurry of changes to Flurry of blows
This 2nd thread has a link to the post that started the avalanche.
The post in question.<---This is where you go if you don't want to check out the other links.
Actually, because the rules say a monk's flurry is as if he's using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, he can't simply declare that he's using the same fist seven times.
SKR-Dev
This shows that for TWF each body part is it's own weapon.
Using the other fist, knee, and so on is qualifying as a different weapon.|
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Remember, I am walking away from the messy flurry. Let's just stick to regular two weapon fighting with unarmed strike only.
We are also not talking about additional attacks gained from high BAB.
Why is the unarmed strike several weapons?
When does it count as multiple, and when does it count as one?
If each additional limb adds an additional unarmed strike, then multiweapon fighting creates nearly limitless attacks.
This means 3rd level Eidolons with 6 attacks, and with double slice, full strength to all.
Remember, I am walking away from the messy flurry. Let's just stick to regular two weapon fighting with unarmed strike only.
We are also not talking about additional attacks gained from high BAB.Why is the unarmed strike several weapons?
When does it count as multiple, and when does it count as one?
If each additional limb adds an additional unarmed strike, then multiweapon fighting creates nearly limitless attacks.
This means 3rd level Eidolons with 6 attacks, and with double slice, full strength to all.
An eidolon unarmed attack's base damage based on size will most likely do less than natural attack damage, and it would be burning feats to do so. That means that is a bad idea.
In fact, with the "more limbs, more unarmed strikes" a 20th level Biped Eidlion with the limb and 24 tail evolutions and the multiweapon fighting feat can make 31 attacks.
38 attacks if you take Extra Evolution at 1st level, and again at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th, then use Evolution Surge.
They do have a limit on limbs.
Why is the unarmed strike several weapons?
When does it count as multiple, and when does it count as one?
If each additional limb adds an additional unarmed strike, then multiweapon fighting creates nearly limitless attacks.
This means 3rd level Eidolons with 6 attacks, and with double slice, full strength to all.
Look at it this way. The description of an unarmed strike states: "An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon." What is a light weapon? "A light weapon is used in one hand." Therefore, you can only wield one unarmed strike per hand. You are allowed to fluff it up as a kick or a headbutt or whatever you want, but you are only allowed one per hand "slot." This can get into weird cases, where a weapon can be wielded two-"handed" while still leaving your "off-hand" slot free for a kick (or armor spikes), but that does not change the basic concept. If you get more hands, you get more "hand slots" for attacks with manufactured weapons, unarmed attacks, or even attack-replacing combat maneuvers.
You do not get an attack for each possible limb, be it a headbutt or a tail, because of the aforementioned "hand slots." If your interpretation were true, and you can create an arbitrary number of off-hand attacks, you could already attack with two blade boots, a barbezu beard, and armor spikes in addition to two weapons. You cannot do this, however, because any one of these weapons takes up the off-hand "slot" you have available. Using multiple unarmed strikes need not enter into it, making your argument that you can only use one for balance reasons irrelevant.
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You have already been given one: Greater Brawler.
Prerequisite: Brawler rage power
Benefit: While raging, the barbarian is treated as if she has Two-Weapon Fighting when making unarmed strike attacks.
If you can't two-weapon fight using only unarmed strikes, this power is totally useless.
I could find no published characters on d20pfsrd who fight with two unarmed strikes, but that really doesn't say much of anything. There are also no dual shield wielders, or characters that two-weapon fight with a two-handed weapon and armor spikes, yet you can do those. They are just weird fighting styles, and ones that haven't happened to be published.
Not on Tails.
Quote please.
I will also add that only by RAW only certain body parts are unarmed strikes. Tails even if you provide a quote do not get to make them.
edit:
Max. Attacks
This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
Tails are natural attacks and therefore can't bypass the limit.
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@Mort the Cleverly Named: Brawler power is allowing you to add unarmed strikes to full attacks without taking heavy penalties.
@wraithstrike: unarmed strikes are not natural attacks, and not limited.
Max. AttacksThis indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
Tail (Ex)An eidolon grows a long, powerful tail. This grants it a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to balance on a surface. This evolution can be selected more than once.
@Mort the Cleverly Named: Brawler power is allowing you to add unarmed strikes to full attacks without taking heavy penalties.
If that were the case, it would be incredibly awful. The full TWF penalties would still apply on any attacks with a main hand manufactured weapon, meaning a -4 penalty on your sword or axe or what have you. Since Brawler is based on making a character more powerful with unarmed strikes, it would make no sense that the follow up power would be there solely to allow them to combine armed and unarmed attacks really, really poorly.
@Mort the Cleverly Named: Brawler power is allowing you to add unarmed strikes to full attacks without taking heavy penalties.
@wraithstrike: unarmed strikes are not natural attacks, and not limited.
Max. AttacksThis indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
Tail (Ex)An eidolon grows a long, powerful tail. This grants it a +2 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to balance on a surface. This evolution can be selected more than once.
I think you are misunderstanding me. I know unarmed strikes are not natural attacks. I am saying that by RAW they can only be made with certain body parts.
As for the tail, just because you can pick it more than once, that does not mean it can bypass my previous posts. As an example you can select claws more than once also, but they are still natural attacks, and can not bypass my previous post.
edit:I now see the tail is not an attack, but the tail slap which is a different evolution is. That still does not allow tails to make unarmed strikes though.
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet.
At no point is a tail mentioned.
Think of it like this, an unarmed attack is just a light weapon regardless of where on your body it is being weilded.
Example ... a sword in right hand an dagger in left. With TWF you get an extra attack with either the sword or dagger as an off hand attack (defending on what you used for your interum BAB attack).
Example ... a fist with your left hand and a fist in your right. Fist = unarmed. So with TWF you get an extra fist attack using the one you didn't use with your interum. You suffer all the usual TWF penalties. Theybare both unarmed attacks but are in fact two different weapons. Fist could be substituted with foot, head, knee, ect.
The other thing not to confuse is that unarmed attacks are not the same as natural attacks.
It is expressly stated in the rules that all your attacks derived from TWF must be with the same weapon.
Talonhawke, please read the TWF rules on the OGC. It states:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.
This means you do have a maximum of two weapons for TWF. You could say that an unarmed strike counts as an off-hand weapon for these purposes but this is bending the rules a bit. Not unfair or cheesy, just not quite right. I'd leave it up to individual GMs, and personally wouldn't ban it, but it doesn't seem 100% RAW to me. Once again poorly worded rules about unarmed strikes confuse people :(
I'm going to ask you one thing and one thing only. Can a character make a full attack with thrown weapons while using the TWF feat?
Are saying you need a head, arm, or leg to make an unarmed strike?
What does an ooze use to make an unarmed strike?
Without GM fiat, nothing.
As for Greater Brawler Rage Power, I see no mention of a reduction in penalties.
Well, how do unarmed strikes interact with multiweapon fighting?
RAW I would say that each potential limb that qualifies can make an attack.
RAI I would say that IUS would count as one weapon for this purpose, but due to how the rules are written I can't really prove it.
I am sure there is a way to break this combo by RAW though if someone tries hard enough. I think the unarmed strike rules need to be revisited personally or multi-weapon fighting can be reworded.
The prerequisites for the feat show that manufactured weapons were what was intended to be use though.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
They would not mention hands if they intended to allows you to fight with knees and elbows also with that feat.
@ talonhawke: I'm going to ask you one thing and one thing only... Can you take a move action and a full action in the same turn? That should answer your question.
That is nonsequiter to the issue at hand. Quick Draw allows me to draw those thrown weapons as a free action thus negating any move action required for anything.
So I ask you again, can I TWF with thrown weapons using my full BAB string?
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@Blackbloodtroll: Where are you getting the idea that unarmed attacks are somehow outside the iterative attack sequence? It doesn't matter if you have 100 hands, you can only make as many unarmed strikes as your BAB allows. TWF allows a maximum of 3 extra attacks and that's if you take the full feat chain.
I don't, that is why I believe the unarmed strike is one weapon.
@ talonhawke: I'm going to ask you one thing and one thing only... Can you take a move action and a full action in the same turn? That should answer your question.
What does that have to do with Talonhawke's question.
PS:Yes you can use TWF to throw multiple weapons.
PS:Yes you can use TWF to throw multiple weapons.
I know that but apparently some people don't. Once you declare your primary hand any attack not coming from it is an off-hand attack. But the limit is still the number of attacks not the number of weapons.