With so many flat out awesome non-core classes out there, can't you put something else in the initial launch in place of the bard?
Bards are despised all over the world for the fact that they sing in battle. This is pretty much the lamest thing ever and I think a lot of people will get behind me on that.
How about an alchemist or magus?!
Goblin Squad Member
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With so many flat out awesome non-core classes out there, can't you put something else in the initial launch in place of the bard?
Bards are despised all over the world for the fact that they sing in battle. This is pretty much the lamest thing ever and I think a lot of people will get behind me on that.
How about an alchemist or magus?!
Goblinworks I beg you, make the bard useful. In a game with epic battles and open ended experience there is a lot of room to make a class that is REALLY awesome based on the idea of a character who while dabbling in many things is most useful for inspiring their allies and weakening their foes.
You've said this game while being based on the concepts of Pathfinder may implement the same ideas in different ways.
I am really excited to see what you guys can do with the bard.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I intend to play a bard. I hope they have the non-music archetypes for me (Archivist Bard, yay), but I also hope they keep the music ones for those who do want it. Music has been a part of battle, used to keep marching rhythm and the such since...well probably as long as there has been war.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I intend to play a bard. I hope they have the non-music archetypes for me (Archivist Bard, yay), but I also hope they keep the music ones for those who do want it. Music has been a part of battle, used to keep marching rhythm and the such since...well probably as long as there has been war.
Ditto there, bard has always been one of my favorate classes in D&D and pathfinder. Now the bards in many other games I would agree, but as the core pathfinder class, the combination of buffing, mellee capability + mind spells = pure fun.
No way can I back the motion to not include bard
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd love to have a guy running around with invisibility and using crowd control songs.
I don't know if songs break invis in the core rules, but they don't when using the rules I've played by.
In any case, fascinated backs are so much easier to stab.
While technically bardic performance doesn't break invisibility, you have to be visible in order to fascinate someone.
Additionally, bardic performances that target foes /would/ break invisibility. You could however be an invisible buffer.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If you have a problem with a bard singing March of the Cambreadth (bagpipes optional) to grant a bonus to attack and damage, you have a problem with fantasy.
Granted, half spell level progression and mid attack bonus isn't broken like the cleric, but that's a discussion for another place.
I like bards!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The bard should be like an 80's rock band. Strum a chord... SQUIBALEDOO... your enemies head explodes.
Though seriously, a bard should be a must-have for any serious adventuring group, their buff/debuff auras should make them invaluable.
The only thing i didn't like about bards when playing NWN was that they never gained access to high level spells. Personally i would like bards to have their own spell tree intertwined with their music that rivals other spell trees. And then Ryan's guitar analogy can have foundation in the game.
With so many flat out awesome non-core classes out there, can't you put something else in the initial launch in place of the bard?
Bards are despised all over the world for the fact that they sing in battle. This is pretty much the lamest thing ever and I think a lot of people will get behind me on that.
How about an alchemist or magus?!
Really? You are aware that the only bard abilities that even suggests taking levels in perform is versatile performance, countersong and distraction right?
You can quite easily play a bard that never sings a note (or even plays an instrument) -- in fact my current character is just such a bard.
Beyond that the bard is (currently) the single best buffer in the game, and the more allies he has near him the more he shines as he provides those great buffs to every ally near him.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The bard should be like an 80's rock band. Strum a chord... SQUIBALEDOO... your enemies head explodes.
Though seriously, a bard should be a must-have for any serious adventuring group, their buff/debuff auras should make them invaluable.
The only thing i didn't like about bards when playing NWN was that they never gained access to high level spells. Personally i would like bards to have their own spell tree intertwined with their music that rivals other spell trees. And then Ryan's guitar analogy can have foundation in the game.
Ultimate magic added some pretty awesome bard spells.
Chord of Shards (1st level spell) 2d6 damage in a 15 ft cone (reflex negates)
Ki Shout (as the 7th level wizard spell)
Shadowbard (5th level) allows you to have a bardic performance going without spending daily uses of it. Stacks with your own performance as long as the bonuses are different.
Overwhelming Presence (as the 9th level wizard spell)
Dance of a thousand cuts - +5 to hit, +5 damage, +5 acrobatics, +5 AC, +haste. (Unfortunately this one is only to you, but if you're playing a dervish bard, it's pretty nice)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Blaeringr, it was a joke.
"Can't tell if serious, or ..." is a meme.
I was riffing off of the obvious fact that this thread indicates significant support for a Bard archetype.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Yay for bards! I've played bards in everything from 1st edition AD&D (when you had to jump through hoops of first leveling as a fighter, then as a thief, and *then* you could start your bard levels), through 2nd and 3rd editions of AD&D.
And yes, I'll sing in battle! :)
Really? You are aware that the only bard abilities that even suggests taking levels in perform is versatile performance, countersong and distraction right?
You can quite easily play a bard that never sings a note (or even plays an instrument) -- in fact my current character is just such a bard.
Those are the only abilities that depend on the outcome of the Perform die roll.
Other usages of Bardic Performance are still Performance, and since nothing says otherwise, still needs to fit within the 9 categories of Performance (though you can house-rule your own categories if you wish). Strictly speaking, every Performance still calls for a SkilL Check, it just doesn't matter for the outcome of most Bard abilities.Back to the OP, PRPG Bardic Performance need not be Music or Singing - It can be Dance, Oratory, Comedy, etc... It just needs to fit within the 9 given categories for Performance, and be perceivable by your desired targets of the Bardic Performance. Countersong must be something that can be heard (so, probably Musical, though Comedy could count), and likewise Dirge of Doom... But unless the specific ability specifies, a non-Sonic Performance can definitely be used.
That is within the 'core bard' anyways. And we already known they are planning to have different archetypes available for all the classes, so why would Bard be an exception?
Back to the OP, PRPG Bardic Performance need not be Music or Singing - It can be Dance, Oratory, Comedy, etc... It just needs to fit within the 9 given categories for Performance, and be perceivable by your desired targets of the Bardic Performance. Countersong must be something that can be heard (so, probably Musical, though Comedy could count), and likewise Dirge of Doom... But unless the specific ability specifies, a non-Sonic Performance can definitely be used.
Alas, some of my opinions are extremely unpopular but I'd like to take this opportunity to say I absolutely adore the tactical niche of the bard. It's this performance stuff that irks me.
Comedy? Dance? These things seem even lamer than singing in battle.
I dance. You gain X buff.
I tell a joke. You gain Y buff.
I adore the archaeologist, I really do. When I first heard of pathfinder I thought to myself, "For the love of god I hope the bard either doesn't exist or has been stripped of this performance stuff." I certainly hope a non-performing bard appears soon after launch so I can allow the class in my clan.
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I never played a bard, and I can say: They rock. Despised? Pshaw, we love our Bard and his bardic performance buffs... or debuffs.
And what the heck is wrong with singing in battle? It throws off people, buffs your party, and therefore make bad guys sad. Truth be told, I find bards more heroic in battle than fighters. I mean who else has the courage to sing in battle? Not me.
Wouldn't laughing in battle be worse? Because if so, the witch is a big offender, and they are fun to play/fun to have too :|
LOTRO made Minstrel quite an interesting class, if a bit overcomplex - I was messing up which buffs I already have and which I should use now. So PFO will manage to do this. And pnp Bard is awesome. Those claim otherwise just failed to play them right (either on mechanical or roleplaying level or on both).
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon quoting another meme: "If You Have to Explain a Joke, It's Not Funny".
Yeah, I almost made that point myself when I explained my joke.
Oh well, I am not unfamiliar with failure.
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Alas, some of my opinions are extremely unpopular but I'd like to take this opportunity to say I absolutely adore the tactical niche of the bard. It's this performance stuff that irks me.
Comedy? Dance? These things seem even lamer than singing in battle.
I dance. You gain X buff.
I tell a joke. You gain Y buff.
I adore the archaeologist, I really do. When I first heard of pathfinder I thought to myself, "For the love of god I hope the bard either doesn't exist or has been stripped of this performance stuff." I certainly hope a non-performing bard appears soon after launch so I can allow the class in my clan.
If you have ever listened to a song and felt 'pumped up' or 'energized' before doing a physical activity, you essentially benefited from a singing/musical instrument playing bard.
To echo SolidHalo, music as motivation has been around in battle for ages. It only stopped being as relevant once the scale and pace of battle became prohibitively dangerous (Introduction of automatic weapons).
But having a man on drums or a bugle was simply a part of fighting. Same thing with hunting horns.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pathfinder Online is going to be a different kind of MMORPG, not a race to be the most useful class in combat.
As I have said in many threads, social skills are important. A bard has always lost in the race to be the most useful or effective character in combat, but excels in non-combat aspects. This is not a bad thing.
As I have begged Goblinworks, employ the use of entertainers and musicians to inhabit taverns and social hubs in order to heal the minds/fatigue of players, and to inspire them to greater deeds with 1 hour 'gentle' buffs.
The Bard should be designed similarly to the dancer/musicians of Star Wars Galaxies and thus shall forever be an important class in Pathfinder Online, both in the towns and in the back lines of a battle. A bard would make a great utility character in negating debuffs of players in combat.
Do NOT turn the bard into a cookie cutter combat class who happens to carry a loot. As I intend to play a bard myself, I see no better role for myself than that I have just described. Allow us to maintain or position in combat as per the tabletop, but allow us to form troupes and a meaningful position in earning meager coin in the cities and you've hit the nail on the head.
Really? You are aware that the only bard abilities that even suggests taking levels in perform is versatile performance, countersong and distraction right?
You can quite easily play a bard that never sings a note (or even plays an instrument) -- in fact my current character is just such a bard.
Those are the only abilities that depend on the outcome of the Perform die roll.
Other usages of Bardic Performance are still Performance, and since nothing says otherwise, still needs to fit within the 9 categories of Performance (though you can house-rule your own categories if you wish). Strictly speaking, every Performance still calls for a SkilL Check, it just doesn't matter for the outcome of most Bard abilities.
Um... no it doesn't -- citation please, and even if you are correct I would point out that you can't fail a perform check, and even then performing isn't the same as singing, which is what the OP suggested.
Now I still maintain that you don't have to put a single point into performance to play a bard, and that the only bardic abilities that even suggest putting ranks into a perform skill are those I listed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now I still maintain that you don't have to put a single point into performance to play a bard, and that the only bardic abilities that even suggest putting ranks into a perform skill are those I listed.
On that note, we should also stress that the game itself is being structured to the skill system of Eve Online (one assumes) and either way will be a game in which one 'constructs' ones class, or at the least has room to maneuver within a given class.
We are all talking very finite builds of classes; this is a scenario which I don't see happening. As much as you can build a bard on the tabletop to play a greater combat role and a very slim set of bardic skills, I assume (and very much hope) I can play a bard who rarely would need to leave the confines of a City but for moving to another. Such a build on the tabletop is rare (imagines a GMs face when given that character sheet), yet in a MMORPG? Fun fun fun.
Goblinworks Founder
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I would love to see Bards work along the same lines as SWG entertainers, but also focus on their social skills for knowledge and lore, as well as their inspirational abilities to help fellow adventurers. I don't intend on playing a bard, my heart will always lie with the adventuring Thief but I would like bards to be part of the game.
Perform(Oratory) = Tell your allies about an opening they didn't see.
Not the usual 'silly singer' some people seem to still think the bard is.
(All) usages of Bardic Performance are still Performance, and since nothing says otherwise, still needs to fit within the 9 categories of Performance (though you can house-rule your own categories if you wish). Strictly speaking, every Performance still calls for a SkilL Check, it just doesn't matter for the outcome of most Bard abilities.Um... no it doesn't -- citation please, and even if you are correct I would point out that you can't fail a perform check, and even then performing isn't the same as singing, which is what the OP suggested.
Now I still maintain that you don't have to put a single point into performance to play a bard, and that the only bardic abilities that even suggest putting ranks into a perform skill are those I listed.
A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired.
I definitely agree you don't need to put a single point into a Performance skill: You don't need to be Trained to make Performance checks, and I definitely agree that you can't really fail a Performance check (in the normal sense of failing a check), I hope you didn't get that impression from my post. But neither of those facts (which apply to ANYBODY using the Performance skill, not just Bardic Performance) takes away from the fact that Bardic Peformance is still using Performance, as the citation makes clear. As you say, Performance need not be Singing, that's pretty obvious and up-front if one reads the skill.
Anyways, as my original post also stated, GW has said they are doing Class Archetypes... So I don't see a reason why we should expect that the no-Performance Bardic Archetypes won't be options as well. MAYBE they will exclude them for some reason, but unless there's evidence of that there doesn't seem much of substance to discuss about that subject...
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Let us not forget the Court Bard, who uses her Performance of insult-comedy to actually make the enemy lose morale. If you're talking bad about the dragon that's tearing into your group you are either insane, extraordinarily brave, or both.
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LOTRO made Minstrel quite an interesting class, if a bit overcomplex - I was messing up which buffs I already have and which I should use now. So PFO will manage to do this. And pnp Bard is awesome. Those claim otherwise just failed to play them right (either on mechanical or roleplaying level or on both).
So true, the minstrel was the most interesting and skill based class they had in that game other than the warden. Using ballads to buff up yourself, your party, or your healing output could end up being very skill intensive.
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Bards are despised all over the world for the fact that they sing in battle. This is pretty much the lamest thing ever and I think a lot of people will get behind me on that.
Bard is a lot of people's favorite class. Just because you have an opinion, doesn't mean it's truth.
I love SINGING Bards.
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Goblinworks Founder
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I liked my bard who had high ranks and feats for Use Magic Device, so he was practically able to use anything magical. Made him a great support character who had something for every scenario.
The bard is fine and shouldn't be changed, it's all how you play them.
The possibilities of what Bardic Knowledge could be used for in game.
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So I know I mentioned it, but I never really gave a concrete example.
So, seeing as most adventure paths end at 17, here is a level 17 Half-elf Dawnflower Dervish bard.
By himself.
With his only gear consisting of a +5 Mithral Chain Shirt, +5 Human Bane Scimitar, and a +6 Belt of Physical Perfection.
These are his stats for 17 rounds of combat a day:
40 AC
+45/+45/+40/+35 Attack
3d6+29 Damage
34 Acrobatics
19 Fort
19 Wil
28 Reflex
139 HP (average for all HD other than first, which was max)
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they seem to be weak end-game when scripted encounters specifically need a certain number of dps or whatever and a rogue or mage will "do the job better" .
Did you not see my post DIRECTLY above yours? XD
Bards do not have to be weak. People play them weak because they are taking a 'support' role. If that role is already filled, they can be just as good if not better than many of the other classes.