|
| 18 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I say my Oracle 4 can draw a wand while moving my speed.
The DM says only a "weapon" can be drawn with BAB +1 while moving your speed.
The text is incredibly muddled. RAW, the DM is right, but the "Draw a Weapon" as a move action includes weapon-like objects, specifically mentioning wands as OK.
Is the intention of the last sentence this, "If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may take the "draw a weapon" action as a free action combined with a regular move." ?
PFSRD below:
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wands are allowed. How is he even arguing against it if it is in the book?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Wands are allowed. How is he even arguing against it if it is in the book?
He's say the text, RAW, says "If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move."
RAW, it says "draw a weapon", not "draw a weapon or weapon-like object", therefore only weapons.
It depends on whether its the action of "Draw or sheathe a weapon" that sentence is referring to, or if its truly just a weapon only.
This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands.
The above is also RAW unless someone can explain why wands are called out even while not qualifying.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I'd say that the "free action while moving" text is arguably intending to also refer to weapon like objects, and for some reason, it's not worded precisely.
Here's my reasoning: The first paragraph details drawing weapons and weapon-like objects as a move action, when in fact, this is already the case by the "retrieving stored items" rules, and the whole paragraph is therefore unnecessary from a strict rules standpoint. But what it does establish is a new class of objects that can be drawn as a move action, or as a free action while moving if BAB >= 1. So, a strict reading implies "no" to wands, but if that's the case, there's huge unnecessary paragraph, ironically followed by a single sentence that is apparently abbreviated, losing meaning.
Edit: wraithstrike, the issue is with the first paragraph including weapon-like objects, but the second paragraph excluding them in one possible interpretation. Because the second paragraph is what's important, there lies the conflict.
Edit 2: (At risk of over-clarifying myself) That is, what you and I are saying is the exact thing Sliska_Zafir's GM is interpreting differently. The GM assumes the second paragraph does not inherit the properties of the first.
|
|
The question is:
Does the sentence "If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move" refer to the "Draw or sheathe a weapon" *action* (which is where they break down everything that action contains), or literally just drawing a weapon.
I guess you can draw anything as "an improvised weapon", and be fine.
The second line seems to be saying that if the weapon or weapon-like object is in a backpack instead of readily available, such as in a sheathe that it still takes a move action by my reading.
I doubt anyone can pull a weapon out of a backpack as quickly as they can out of a sheathe.
If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
edit:correction.
|
If you need to retrieve something from your backpack aka wand, then no. If you go out of your way to make it known that the wand is stored on your person (on a belt, in a holster, etc.) then it shouldn't be an issue.
BUT keep in mind that saying you have wands hanging from your belt or in a holter just makes them a target in combat.
Agreement with Wraithstrike on all counts.
Specific rules trump general rules, and if at any point wands are SPECIFICALLY called out, but are generally not mentioned, then they are SPECIFICALLY included.
However, like ossian666 said, it has to be "sheathed" like a weapon, or placed in a similarly accessible location (like a handy haversack). Stored in a backpack won't work.
Ossian666 that is what I said in my post. :)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
RAW it is:
"If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move."
I still think the developers' intention is that "If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may (take the) "draw (or sheathe) a weapon" (action) as a free action combined with a regular move."
I say one may take the action of "Draw or Sheathe a weapon" as a free action combined with a regular move, which would include wands.
Either it was left unclear accidentally, or they are strictly limiting the combination of "move and draw" to just weapons (not weapon-like objects.)
Which is it?
No you may not sheathe a weapon as free action. It has never been RAW or RAI.
|
|
Ah, I see the question now. So, is a wand considered a "weapon" for the purposes of drawing it as a free action while moving (assuming a BAB of +1)?
In the paragraph prior, a wand is referred to as a "weapon-like" object, but the line in question specifically mentions "weapon" only, not "weapon or weapon-like object". With that in mind, I would think your DM is correct: you could not draw a wand as a free action while moving.
I have a side question for this: can you draw as you move a splash weapon (acid, alchemical fire, holy water, etc.)? Do you have to have it on a belt, bandolier, etc. or can it be in a Handy Haversack or backpack?
I retract all earlier post. I just looked the entry up myself. You can only draw weapons while moving as a free action.
The following quote has nothing to do with the paragraph above it.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.
I was thinking that the quote I am now presenting was first, and the OP's quote was right after it as a part of the same paragraph.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm.
I'm going to weigh in and say that drawing a wand as a part of movement would be fine for my table. (If you have the BAB +1 or greater.)
Similarly, if i have a club hanging from a belt loop i could draw it while moving. Yet my rod hanging from a belt loop, which can be identical in size shape etc. to a club, i cannot? Seems needlessly arbitrary and punishing to my view.
Simple solution.
Make your own wands (or pay to have them commissioned), and specify that all wands are clubs. Clubs are long wooden stick weapons that can be used in one hand. A wand is a long wooden stick that can be used to cast a spell.
Voila, now you have a wand that can be used drawn any time a weapon can be drawn.
Note this makes them heavier than wands, and they still don't count as a magic weapon.
EDIT: Well, if you had a magic weapon spell in the wand-club, I suppose you could use the wand to cast magic weapon on itself and then brain people with it. :)
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I retract all earlier post. I just looked the entry up myself. You can only draw weapons while moving as a free action.
The following quote has nothing to do with the paragraph above it.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.I was thinking that the quote I am now presenting was first, and the OP's quote was right after it as a part of the same paragraph.
Actually, I think you could well have been right the first time. Both the sentences (the one starting "This action also applies to weapon-like objects ...", and the one you quote above) are part of the overall section entitled Draw or Sheathe a Weapon.
It wouldn't be totally ridiculous to assume that the sentence you quote could be interpreted as saying:
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may [perform an action of the type currently being discussed in this section] as a free action combined with a regular move.
I'd say that until such time as there is an official clarification, it's well within the remit of an individual GM to rule either way on whether the combined action applies to any Draw or Sheathe a Weapon action (which would include drawing or sheathing weapon-like objects), or whether it is in fact restricted to only drawing a weapon.
I'd probably take the more permissive view myself; I don't think it leads to abuse, so I don't see what benefit there would be from prohibiting the less restrictive interpretation.
Here is the entire quote:
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Drawing and Sheating are not tied together. What applies to one does not apply to the other. By the chart in the combat section they are seperated. Draw a weapon has the number 3 beside if checked in the chart says " If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can combine one of these actions with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one."
"Ready or drop a shield" a shield also has that footnote. Sheathing a weapon which is listed separately does not.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Drawing and Sheathing are not tied together. What applies to one does not apply to the other. By the chart in the combat section they are separated. Draw a weapon has the number 3 beside if checked in the chart says " If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can combine one of these actions with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one."
"Ready or drop a shield" a shield also has that footnote. Sheathing a weapon which is listed separately does not.
Good point. And, in fact, sheathing a weapon is further differentiated from drawing a weapon by the fact that sheathing a weapon provokes an attack of opportunity, while drawing a weapon does not.
The more you look, the less clear it all becomes.
And all this still doesn't clearly answer the original question - is drawing a wand meant to be treated like drawing a weapon?
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I don't see the fuss on this one.. rules are quite clear.
1) "Draw or Sheathe a Weapon" is divided into 2 paragraphs, first one tells us that handling anything is a move action. Second one gives us an exception aka the +1 rule.. but this one mentions weapons, and weapons only.
2) "Manipulate an Item" again tells us that it's a move action.
3) "Quick draw" feat doesn't even allow it. (And we're even talking about using a feat here)
4) "Gloves of storing" is made for this exact purpose.
So to sum up.. retrieving from a easy-reach-container (aka scroll case, potion belt (something we kept from d&d 3.0 FR campaign setting), tuck into belt ect. ect.) IS A MOVE ACTION. Only a weapon (on the weapon list, again see quick draw regarding alchemical weapons, wands ect.) can be drawn doing a -> regular <- move.
As i said.. seems quite straight foward :)
I think a wand can be drawn like a weapon in most cases, but the paragraph for drawing weapons as a free actions only calls out weapons, not weapon like objects. Quick Draw also only calls out weapons.
In the first sentence where it list a difference between drawing a readily availible weapons or weapons like object it is because of something I mentioned earlier, and something that is in the rules.
Pulling a dagger out of a sheathe will be a lot easier than pulling one out of a backpack.
This is also represented in the rules by allowing you to unsheathe a weapon without provoking, but drawing a weapon that is stored in a backpack would provoke since it would count as a stored item. That is what the first paragraph is referring to.
The second paragraph is only concerned with drawing weapons while moving.
The third paragraph is referring to ammunition.
If the 3rd paragraph was the only one that was its own topic then the first two paragraphs would be combined, and "weapon like objects" would also have been included in the second paragraph also.
PS:In 3.5 you could draw wands that way according to the Rules of the game articles and the 3.5 FAQ since they count as light weapons for the purpose of drawing them.
Does drawing a wand from a wand sheath provoke attacks of opportunity or can I draw it as if it were a weapon? If I have Quick Draw, can I draw a wand as a free action?
As described on page 142 of the Player’s Handbook, the “draw a weapon” action also applies to weaponlike objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. (The Sage would suggest that magic rods and staffs also fall into this category.) Thus, drawing a wand doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, and a character with Quick Draw could draw one as a free action.
Wands and rods (but not staffs) also fall into the category of “light or one-handed weapons” for the purpose of drawing them in conjunction with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (see page 142 of the Player’s Handbook).
I think the sage was wrong, but I would like to know what the Paizo devs think also. :)
Pathfinder is not 3.5 sorry to say.. pathfinder changed a lot of rules from 3.5, and to refer to house rules on the subject is not what is needed here.PS:In 3.5 you could draw wands that way according to the Rules of the game articles and the 3.5 FAQ since they count as light weapons for the purpose of drawing them.
3.5 FAQ wrote:
Does drawing a wand from a wand sheath provoke attacks of opportunity or can I draw it as if it were a weapon? If I have Quick Draw, can I draw a wand as a free action?As described on page 142 of the Player’s Handbook, the “draw a weapon” action also applies to weaponlike objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. (The Sage would suggest that magic rods and staffs also fall into this category.) Thus, drawing a wand doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, and a character with Quick Draw could draw one as a free action.
Wands and rods (but not staffs) also fall into the category of “light or one-handed weapons” for the purpose of drawing them in conjunction with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (see page 142 of the Player’s Handbook).
The Sage would suggest
emphasis on "suggest".
Now if people wanna go house rule it.. be my guest, but as a DM i would never allow it.. there's a big difference on drawing a weapon and hitting ->1<- mob once over the head, then let's say a sorcerer with a bloodline and trait that enhances lightningbolts or fireballs and a lesser maximize rod, who can pull the rod out doing a move.. go into position and dish out 60+ sure damage.
Depends on the Rod a good number of them funtion as weapons and therefore can be drawn under those circumstances anyways.
Pathfinder is not 3.5 sorry to say.. pathfinder changed a lot of rules from 3.5, and to refer to house rules on the subject is not what is needed here.PS:In 3.5 you could draw wands that way according to the Rules of the game articles and the 3.5 FAQ since they count as light weapons for the purpose of drawing them.
3.5 FAQ wrote:
Does drawing a wand from a wand sheath provoke attacks of opportunity or can I draw it as if it were a weapon? If I have Quick Draw, can I draw a wand as a free action?As described on page 142 of the Player’s Handbook, the “draw a weapon” action also applies to weaponlike objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. (The Sage would suggest that magic rods and staffs also fall into this category.) Thus, drawing a wand doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, and a character with Quick Draw could draw one as a free action.
Wands and rods (but not staffs) also fall into the category of “light or one-handed weapons” for the purpose of drawing them in conjunction with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (see page 142 of the Player’s Handbook).The Sage would suggestemphasis on "suggest".
Now if people wanna go house rule it.. be my guest, but as a DM i would never allow it.. there's a big difference on drawing a weapon and hitting ->1<- mob once over the head, then let's say a sorcerer with a bloodline and trait that enhances lightningbolts or fireballs and a lesser maximize rod, who can pull the rod out doing a move.. go into position and dish out 60+ sure damage.
1.I disagreed with the Sage's ruling which was stated above.
2.If that was the correct 3.5 way then it should work in PF, assuming the words did not change. You can't have the same words in both games with different meanings barring PF dev intervention. In short the 3.5 isn't PF is not an argument since the game is backwards compatible.
Depends on the Rod a good number of them funtion as weapons and therefore can be drawn under those circumstances anyways.
This one i'm pretty sure of. "Functions as a weapon" is NOT the same "as" a weapon. There's been a dev ruling on this one.. regarding a empthy hand adept monk and using "functions as a quarter staff" and a standard quarter staff..
But anyways.. as i said.. the rules are pretty clear. What people do is up to them :)
2.If that was the correct 3.5 way then it should work in PF, assuming the words did not change. You can't have the same words in both games with different meanings barring PF dev intervention. In short the 3.5 isn't PF is not an argument since the game is backwards compatible.
There are gazillion books for 3.5.. books that let's you do pretty much anything. Pathfinder is a back to basics book. Yes it stats that it's backwards compatible but if you go that way, why not just stay with 3.5? In my party (as DM and player) we exclusive use pathfinder materials. To each their own.
Backwards compatible does not mean all the rules are the same. It does mean that all the rules that have not been explicitly changed due to different wording still work the same way.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.
The first paragraph describes wands as weapon-like objects.
However, the second sentence states "draw a weapon", not "draw a weapon or weapon-like object".
The question is, should it be Read exactly as Written (RAW)? Or should we read it as, " If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may [perform the] "draw or sheathe a weapon" action as a free action combined with a regular move (RAI)?
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
just announce you are drawing the 'wand' improvised weapon... which is a weapon. voila.
I'm pretty confident that you can draw a wand during a move if you have +1 BAB. They don't repeat the "weapon-like objects" clause in the following sentence because it would be redundant and a waste of space. Seriously, I can't think of a way to word it in without it looking silly.
That's not to say you can't make the argument; by the most pedantic reading, it technically does not say you can draw a wand during a move. But satisfying such a perspective would bloat the rulebook to twice its current size, as such duplications would appear everywhere.
It is not that much space and treating something like a weapon in once instance does not mean it is treated like a weapon in all instances. If so a clause saying weapon-like objects are always treated like weapons would have handled the issue.
It is not that much space this time. There are many other places where a similar argument could be raised. Every line of text costs money in printing, so I would hazard that SOP is to attempt to be as concise as possible while getting the point across. Going by precedent, it is not out of the realm of possibility that they felt this was explicit enough and that was that.
I agree that the "weapon-like objects" clause would not apply everywhere. But we're literally talking about the next sentence after the clause. I'll have no trouble sleeping at night with this interpretation, and I won't even bother to FAQ it.
Again, if context is not taken into account beyond the fact that they're separate sentences, then you may not draw a wand during a move. I draw the context line a little differently. Paizo rules language, like everything else in English or any other natural language, is occasionally semantically ambiguous. Maybe they'll respond to your FAQ request and settle it.
It is another paragraph. If it was the next sentence over I would be more inclined to agree. If all that was meant to be taken in together it should have been one paragraph. I don't think it is broken BTW. I just don't think it was the intent.
improvised weapon FTW. that should even work fine for halflings.
When they said weapons I am sure they meant things that are listed as weapons, not any random object.
What the person winds up doing with whatever they pull out should be immaterial. The question should be, "Is the act of retrieving one three-foot long iron spindle any different than the act of drawing another?"
Arguing about whats realistic and whats not, is rather pointless in a game of d&d where monsters and magic are more commen than not. It's about game balance, nothing more. All the rules are there to make sure everything is balanced. Thats why they wrote that it's up to the DM to manage the rules, but that he should consider the ramifications of changing them.
For me it's a balance issue. "insert former example about maximize rod here"
I'm pretty confident that you can draw a wand during a move if you have +1 BAB. They don't repeat the "weapon-like objects" clause in the following sentence because it would be redundant and a waste of space. Seriously, I can't think of a way to word it in without it looking silly.
Weapon-like is not the same as a weapon, there's been a ruling on this one.. can't remember the thread name :(
It is not that much space and treating something like a weapon in once instance does not mean it is treated like a weapon in all instances. If so a clause saying weapon-like objects are always treated like weapons would have handled the issue.
Your right on the money about this one. The following is from a thread regarding skillpoints.
James Jacobs (Creative Director) Apr 14, 2010, 12:23
All bonuses are retroactive when an ability score increases, be they bonuses to damage, to skill ranks, to hit points, to saves, to skill checks... all of them. Skill ranks not being retroactive are a 3.5 convention we specifically removed from the game because it was a weird exception to the rule, and since now there are no exceptions to this rule, there´s no need to specifically state that skill ranks are retroactively granted if your Intelligence goes up.
If you compare that to the text in Draw a weapon or Sheathe a weapon which states the precise requirements rather thoroughly, there's not much room for interpretation. Now i know a counter argument could be made that there´s no need to specifically state as it is implied in the first paragraph. My point here is, why devide the paragraphs (paragraphs indicate you start on a new subject) and not just add everything under the same paragraph, saving the precious text space. Why not just write wands again in the second paragraph (it's 2 or 3 words.. come on people space issues?!?). Why is it not possible to do it with feats (Quick Draw).
Improvised weapons are not weapons. They are just objects that might be used when no real weapon is available.
Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weaponsnonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
If anything can be considered a weapon then anything can be used with quickdraw or drawn while moving no matter what it actually is.
If anything can be considered a weapon then anything can be used with quickdraw or drawn while moving no matter what it actually is.
couldn't say it better myself..
+1
"Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move."
My take would be that the first paragraph qualifies "weapon-like objects" as weapons for the purpose of time taken in "drawing and sheathing"
The second paragraph differentiates drawing from sheathing.
I also believe that AoOs are a seperate issue (my thought would be that a weapon which is being drawn could be used to parry or threaten an opponent, therefore not provoking an AoO. Objects, such as wands, make less useful parrys).
|
|
"Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move."
My take would be that the first paragraph qualifies "weapon-like objects" as weapons for the purpose of time taken in "drawing and sheathing"
The second paragraph differentiates drawing from sheathing.
I also believe that AoOs are a seperate issue (my thought would be that a weapon which is being drawn could be used to parry or threaten an opponent, therefore not provoking an AoO. Objects, such as wands, make less useful parrys).
You do bring up an interesting nuance: you may only make an AoO with a melee attack. If you are wielding a wand (and only a wand) do you threaten around you for the purposes of making AoO? If you don't threaten, it's not a melee weapon.
|
|
If anything can be considered a weapon then anything can be used with quickdraw or drawn while moving no matter what it actually is.
I think that is what they are preventing from being abused. If you are drawing a wand as part of your move and calling it a weapon, that character better be hitting someone over the head or poking them in the eye with it at the end of their move and not expending charges.
The table makes clear that the "draw a weapon" action can be taken as part of your move.
The "draw a weapon" action also applies to wands.
