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This came up in another thread, and I think it would fix most of the concerns I have.
What if it was a monk feature that their body was itself masterwork weapon, and therefore capable of being enchanted.
It fits the flavor, it saves the slot, and you can adjust costs to being equal to a double weapon...
Simple solution that fixes 95% of the concerns.
Thoughts?
Giving them 2+ masterwork weapons for just being a monk... I don't like it.
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I approve of this measure. I might suggest an addendum or two for it, lest we have someone with a flaming burst knee, running around. I'd say that you could enchant the body in two separate occurances. However, i'm sure there will be a lot of snickering, and someone will certainly have their butt enchanted for some sort of gaseous burst...
Makes sense to me!~
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This came up in another thread, and I think it would fix most of the concerns I have.
What if it was a monk feature that their body was itself masterwork weapon, and therefore capable of being enchanted.
It fits the flavor, it saves the slot, and you can adjust costs to being equal to a double weapon...
Simple solution that fixes 95% of the concerns.
Thoughts?
I agree. Also be sure to remove all the rubbish from the flurry of blows fallout. By that I mean, not only implement this, but also firmly state, "Unarmed Strike is one and the same weapon. Whether you knee, or kick or punch or whatever is entirely a flavor decision." And of course, "Flurry of Blows: This can be used with any combination of monk weapons or unarmed strikes, including using the same weapon for all attacks. Can't wait to see how the monk haters try and twist this into not working."
And yes, at this point, actually putting that last sentence into the rules themselves seems warranted.
Giving them 2+ masterwork weapons for just being a monk... I don't like it.At first level it would basically give them the same attack bonus as the other martial classes when fighting unarmed. I don't see it as that much of a bump if you think about it.
Point taken, it's like giving anyone who takes Improved Unarmed Strike 2+ masterwork weapons. Still don't like it.
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Point taken, it's like giving anyone who takes Improved Unarmed Strike 2+ masterwork weapons. Still don't like it.Giving them 2+ masterwork weapons for just being a monk... I don't like it.At first level it would basically give them the same attack bonus as the other martial classes when fighting unarmed. I don't see it as that much of a bump if you think about it.
No, just monks. It should be a monk class feature.
And if you stop thinking of unarmed strike as more than 1 weapon, since...it should not be considered so..., it's also far more easy to accept.
You know what would be nice?
Going back to 3.5 flurry of blow rules, except with PF's addition that you get full BAB during it. Cuts all those stupid ties to two-weapon fighting completely. It'd be even nicer to use 3.5 flurry of blows and just plain give the monk full BAB 24/7...
And if you stop thinking of unarmed strike as more than 1 weapon, since...it should not be considered so..., it's also far more easy to accept.
You know what would be nice?
Going back to 3.5 flurry of blow rules, except with PF's addition that you get full BAB during it. Cuts all those stupid ties to two-weapon fighting completely. It'd be even nicer to use 3.5 flurry of blows and just plain give the monk full BAB 24/7...
I was merely going off the OP's suggestion that it be priced as a double weapon. I assumed that it was his suggestion we were discussing.
As to what would be nice, I prefer one poster's idea that we should leave monks at 3/4 BAB but rework flurry so that it is a simple full-attack, but it uses a standard action instead of a full-round action.
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Make a feat:
Master of Melee / Fierce Fist / Powerful Pugs / Natural Nibbler?
pre-req: Str 13, improved unarmed strike, or monk lvl 3, or 1 minimum primary natural attack that gains a 1.5str bonus
You have honed your prowess with your unarmed and natural fighting ability to the point where your strikes are as deadly as forged weapons.
benefit: unarmed strikes or natural weapons become masterwork for the purposes of enchantment. this feat does not grant the +1 to hit bonus normally attributed to a MW weapon.
As far as magic fists go, you can buy an allying weapon and transfer the bonus to your fist(s) (exact requirements on actually using the weapon are in the air). It is akin to enchanting your fists with +1-5 at the cost of a +2-6 weapon. That, of course, leaves your amulet slot open, or lets you put miscellaneous bonuses on your AoMF.
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YOU COULD PUNCH GHOSTS!!!! WITH YOUR KICKS!!!
lightning headbutt
The imagery I'm coming up with for this is awesome...
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As far as magic fists go, you can buy an allying weapon and transfer the bonus to your fist(s) (exact requirements on actually using the weapon are in the air). It is akin to enchanting your fists with +1-5 at the cost of a +2-6 weapon. That, of course, leaves your amulet slot open, or lets you put miscellaneous bonuses on your AoMF.
Allying weapons requires a lot of machinations, not to mention the +1 cost and your partner giving up their bonus.
Seems a complex solution to a simple problem.
As far as magic fists go, you can buy an allying weapon and transfer the bonus to your fist(s) (exact requirements on actually using the weapon are in the air). It is akin to enchanting your fists with +1-5 at the cost of a +2-6 weapon. That, of course, leaves your amulet slot open, or lets you put miscellaneous bonuses on your AoMF.Allying weapons requires a lot of machinations, not to mention the +1 cost and your partner giving up their bonus.
Seems a complex solution to a simple problem.
You misunderstand. As a monk, pick up an allying kama, wield it in battle, and choose to transfer the bonus to your fists. You count as your own ally after all.
I like the flavor of this, and unifying unarmed strikes as a single "weapon" sounds like an easy, simple, and concise way of handling it. Flurry of Blows is a Monk only thing, and Monks (outside of style feats) are inadequate anyway. I didn't keep up with the Flurry threads (100+ posts a day? No, thanks.) but I feel like this issue is blown out of proportion for fear of throwing balance out the window, when countless threads have been started dedicated to buffing the monk.
Oh, hello Mr. Wizard... No, we're not discussing YOUR balance issues...
RAI is extremely unclear in respect to allying and defending weapons. SKR claims that you must actually attack with the weapon to get the bonuses to work, whereas the ability descriptions claim that you choose at the beginning of your turn, before you are able to attack.
As far as using the weapon in an... unintended manner, I say monks need all the help they can get, and it is technically legal so I await errata before I deny a monk the ability to have an affordable magic fist.
EDIT: I find it odd that you would be so skeptical of legality, when you yourself suggested changing the rules flat out.
EDIT EDIT: I should mention that my preferred weapon is a cestus as I can transfer the bonus to the underlying fist and attack with the fist that has the cestus, but refrain from actually using the cestus for damage.
rabble rabble rabble. yes, it is ridiculous. yes, monks need help hitting things. i'd carry an oversized Q-staff it it meant i could kick better.
Is it as ridiculous as your friend carrying the quarterstaff that makes you kick better?
Can we all agree both are ridiculous?
Meh, I think you carrying your own allying weapon can be quite thematic, especially when using close fitting weapons such as a cestus.
Perhaps I am jaded by my long exposure to the 3.5/3.p system, but I am more than accustomed to the need for magical items. A monk doesn't need such things, as he has 2d10 fists at level 20, which is high enough to counteract some DR's through sheer base damage differences. But to defeat high magic foes, one generally needs some high magic of his own.
If they can hit, which is the bigger issue than damage as they are a 3/4 bab class that can at attack bonus to the primary iconic weapon of the class.
I do not understand the bolded part.
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A 20th level martial class with a +5 weapon hits at +25 before adding in strenght or other bonuses.
Since a monk can't increase his attack bonus for unarmed, and are 3/4 Bab they hit on +15.
A wizard with a +5 weapon is as likely to hit as a monks unarmed strike.
Amulet of mighty fist takes a slot (so no amulet of natural armor) and maxes out at a +d bonus, period (as opposed to weapons which can get +10 worth of enhancement)
You can't damage what you can't hit.
You mean +18 when flurrying. And that is also up to 4 attacks at +18. He can also use an allying weapon, much cheaper than the amulet at higher EB's. So he is just 2 behind a martial class, but he does have a slightly more expensive weapon (+6 price vs +5).
22K more expensive.
On topic, why not just let monks, and only monks, enhance their fists? Price it as a double weapon and only have it work when wearing no armor and I see no issues.
Using an allying weapon + AoMF is actually 2k cheaper than a single +10 weapon. Using two allying weapons and one AoMF is far cheaper than 2 +10 weapons.
The lesson, just use an allying weapon or two.
I think it is very similar to the enchanted handwrap idea myself.
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I'm willing to bet a lot of money that Paizo will be making handwraps for monks in Ultimate Equipment. Because it solves multiple issues.
1, AoMF sucking for monks.
2, Monks being good at unarmed combat and using their unarmed strike damage.
3, Flurry of Blows with handwraps solves the TWF decision of FoB that Paizo created. That's why there's no response on the TWF clarification, because it becomes mostly moot once handwraps/armwraps/knee pads/shin guards/etc are created.
My biggest fear is that somehow they'll screw it up, and that item will take up a valuable magic item slot. Ideally, it'll be something that doesn't take up a slot and is difficult to remove, but the magic involved affects all of your unarmed strikes.
Or else fighters will be mocking monks again by disarming their monk sash/vest/wraps/whatever.