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Alright, so back in the day (in 3.x) I made a character that I only got to play for 3 sessions before the campaign came to an abrupt and unexpected end. I loved the concept for the character I made and would have further loved to get to play it out to see how it was.
Mechanically speaking the character was a Ninja who took levels into the Telflamar Shadowlord PrC (from the Forgotten Realms supliment, Unapproachable East) and Shadowdancer PrC with the Shadow-Walker template (from the same book). The character was all about using combat tricks like ghost step and ethereal jaunt to catch foes flat-footed and deal a devistating round of TWF sneak attacks. He often used hit and run tactics but even in a toe to toe fight he was hard to pin down.
From an RP perspective the character was actually a female human who had a lifetime full of mental and physical abuse. It started with the typical story of a girl whose home was ransacked by orcish raiders who raped, killed and pillaged her family's home only to be taken into slavery herself at the ripe old age of 6 years old. The next several years saw her have her tongue cut out by her cruel masters as they no longer wished to hear her rebelious words. Her treatment saw her grow up with a hatred for slavery, orcs, physical contact and a self loathing of being female and helpless. Murdering her master and escaping their clutches she found refuge in a den of human assassins who saw potential in this youth.
The character has high ranks in disguise and wears a leather mask with a demon face stained into it. She raps her (already smallish) breasts and hides her form under armor, black silk and a cloak. Although she had her tongue regenerated she doesn't ever speak. This isn't just to hide her femanine voice (that she detests herself) but also as she has developed a mental block against it from her previous mental abuse. She has a violent aversion to being touched and has deep seeded trust issues. Although she is a bag of mental complexes she is basically a good person and fights to end slavery and mistreatment of those who can not protect themselves whenever the opportunity arises.
Alright, so thats the story. Here is the potential problem: I may want to play this character in an upcoming Pathfinder game and I am not sure what materials are allowed. If I know my GM well he is likely going to allow all Pathfinder material, plus any non-campaign specific 3.5 material. So that means that the "Complete" and "Races of" books are in but likely Forgotten Realms based things are out. Although I would (and I'm sure he would also) prefer to go with no 3.x materials.
So the question is... how would I make this type of character without access to Telflammar Shadowlord and the Shadow-Walker template? Basically what I am looking for is a whirling ball of stab-slicing death who is all shadowy ninja-like and, I dunno.... more shadowy darknessish. I suppose in the end the means to which the character delivers this dark stealth stab-slicing doom doesn't so much matter, but I really did like the original concept.
So here are the things I'm looking at and I'm not entirely certain in which combination I would like to use them:
1. Honestly, the mechanic thing that I liked the most about the original build was the ability it eventually gained to come out of a dimension door type ability doing a full attack. But even being able to do a pounce type attack of any sort is great. I liked the combination of being hidden, BAMFing in and killing the hell out of the guy before he knew what hit him. There isn't a lot that does that but there is a feat in Pathfinder called Dimentional Agility that does basically that. It even has some great follow up feats.
The only problem with all this is that the only way that I can think of to meet the prerequisites for that feat or be able to use it on any kind of regular basis would be to take levels of Monk to get Abundant Step or take caster levels. As this is a melee focused build, the latter is right out and the former is only appealing if I pick up 12 levels of Monk which puts a severe crimper on getting into Shadowdancer (which I would really like to work in there). Also, while Monks definitely can be very ninja-feeling and can certainly fulfill the stealthy dark stab-slicing death I like how the Ninja accomplishes it better. I would consider taking levels in both (I wonder how their Ki Pool work; do they stack with each other if you have levels in both?) that just further delays getting abundant step.
2. That leads me to the Ninja. I like what the ninja offers this kind of build. Where to start? Well, they have disguise (something that my character will be using constantly) and perform (a prereq for Shadowdancer) on their class skill list for one. They get a tasty 8 skill points/level, the same HD and BAB progression (though without flurry). But what I like more than that are their ninja tricks. Particularly tasty are the following:
Vanishing Trick
Shadow Clone
Smoke Bomb (and the other Bomb tricks)
Sudden Disguise
There are several more I like but aren't pivotal to accomplishing what I want the build to do. These include: Pressure Points, Feather Fall, and Flurry of Stars. One of the advantages of taking Shadowdancer is that I would get to take more rogue talents many of which have prerequisites that exist in the ninja tricks list. I don't think it would be a stretch to get my DM to allow ninja tricks in place of the rogue talents from Shadowdancer even as ninja is an alternate class anyway.
3. Thats a great segway into the Shadowdancer. So much about this class meshes with what I want the character to be able to do. Lesse: Hide in Plain Sight check, Evasion, Dark Vision, Uncanny Dodge check check check. The previously mentioned advancing of rogue talents, Shadow Illusion, Summon Shadow and Shadow Jump. Hell, there is so much shadow just in the name of the PrC and the abilities it gets that I don't think there is even a need to reinforce why this PrC is great for the build.
The only issue, again, is that it is much better to go into the class with Ninja than it is Monk. Ninja doesn't grant abundant step and Monk doesn't give it until level 11 so that kinda precludes the idea of jumping out of a BAMF to killstab someone in the face.
I guess another (relatively minor) issue is that the Ninja's Ki Pool is based off their otherwise useless ability score: Charisma. I mean, I suppose it will help disguise checks but beyond that the only thing it will be doing is padding my ki pool. I'd almost rather just tank Charisma and take the extra ki feat. I mean Monks (who are typically considered a weaker class) at least get to use Wisdom for their Ki Pool and it adds to their AC and Will saves as well. Thats much better than Charisma and I definitely wouldn't count Ninja as a stronger class than Monk by any stretch of the imagination. I don't plan on pleading to change this with my DM but perhaps bringing it up might garner more leeway with other things.
And I may need to garner a bit of support because outside of the Shadow-Walker template I don't know of any other way to get a Dimension Door ability from a melee centric class without it. I suppose I could rely on equipment like using a cape of the mountebank or scrolls with ranks in use magic device but I've found using equipment to qualify for PrCs is both silly and folly.
Horizon walker has terrrain dominance at 3rd level that grants it but that just seems like a trap too. I mean, I guess Underground (for blind-fight, a prereq for shadowdancer) and ethereal and forests would be good terrain choices but otherwise the class kinda seems like a waste. Hm... actually, maybe it isn't a bad choice as it also gives ethereal jaunt. Maybe this requires more consideration.
Telflamar Shadowlord has basically been condensed into a single feat (Dimensional Agility) so I guess what I really need to figure out is how to gain Dimension Door as a class ability without use of the Shadow-walker template. I guess Horizon walker does accomplish that, so that is a fallback solution. There used to be a great line of feats that gave bonuses to fighting while ethereal too but I can't seem to find them right now. I have a feeling the character will be feat starved anyway with the TWF tree, Extra Ki, Extra rogue talent (/ninja trick) Weapon Finesse, Dimensional Agility and the follow up feats and such. Being human and getting feats every other level will help to alleviate some of that feat starvation though.
Ideas?
Synthesist gets dimension door at level 6 so that would be your earliest
chance.But I think your best choice would be the magus you can´t two weapon fight with it but with spell combat you can cast dimension door and full attack with only the dimensional agility feat.You need that feat though as dimension door usually(without the feat) doesn´t allow you to take any other actions after casting.Another way would be to go full ninja and take a familiar via eldritch heritage,give the familiar a wand of dimension door so the familiar can take you with it, that way you can still full attack because the limitation of dimension door only applies to the caster.
Magus is your best bet. Spellblade archetype if you really want to two weapon fight.
This type of ability is extremely powerful, so it'll generally take a while to get it.
Ninjas having ki is explicitly there to reign in there power a bit compared to rogues. You can take the Ki rogue talent to change it to Wisdom.
There's a Ninja Trick rogue talent. No need to convince the GM!
Side note: monks are one of the stronger classes now.
Carefull with the Spellblade!!!This archetype is a lot weaker than the regular Magus.
Being that I absolutely want to have this be a TWF character I think Magus is out. Even with Spellblade. IMO it gives up too much without enough gain.
It seems a bit convoluted but what could work would be a Monk 1 (for Wis to AC) / Ranger 3 (TWF + Endurance) / Ninja X (for the tricks) / Horizon Walker 3 (terrain dominance to get dim door Wis +3/day) / Shadowdancer. Unless you see more potential going with rogue over Ninja?
How would you guys build this type of character? I'm curious.
Hm. I could do ninja AND rogue and take the Ki Pool talent. Between Monk, Ninja and Rogue that should give a pretty decently sized Ki Pool. Maybe just 1 level of rogue?
edit: Nevermind. Forgot that I couldn't be both a ninja and rogue because of the alternate class restriction.
Doh, you ninja posted my edit about ninjas. Irony!
You know, another issue I just thought of is that Vanishing Trick is inferior to the 3.x Ninja which allowed you to use Ghost Step. Ghost Step allowed you to be invisible until the start of your next turn. In other words, you could use Ghost Step and get a full attack for sneak attacks before becoming visible on the next turn. This was a great combo with the Shadowlord's ability to get a full attack with a dimension door. Basically what this allowed you to do was to pick a target within range of your dimension door, ghost step, dimension door, and do a full attack sneak attack with two weapon fighting on that target and stay invisible until the beginning of your next turn.
However, Vanishing Trick will not allow for that. So I might be out of luck for this build until getting a means of greater invisibility, blink or a similar effect. That is... unless someone has another idea?
Also, I'm thinking that the best progression at this point would be Ninja 3/Monk 3/Horizon Walker 3/Shadowdancer 10. I would have to pick up the Endurance feat and knowledge Geography would be cross class but it is workable and would allow me to get dimension door 3+Wis/day, all of the Shadowdancer goodies, dimensional agility and all with martial type classes.
The downfalls are that it isn't full BAB, I still would have to get the TWF feats as there is no flurry progression and the lack of ghost step leaves no way to get a full attack of sneak attacks short of greater invisibility type weapons.
Unless someone has a better way?...
Ninja 10 and master trick invisible blade, which is greater invisibility that lasts your level for one ki point.
TWF is complicated with this build though.
And then, you need a high WIS Score to do this often, so better go Monk 4 rest ninja then horizon Walker. 17 levels untill it comes into play. Take a weapon that allows you to flurry with it.
Ranger/Horizon Walker is probably the best, TWF does enough damage then and you have a full BAB.
Just go Ninja/Shadowdancer and ask your GM for use the shadowstep ability for the dimensional agility chain. You have a nice story and concept before the mechanics, and the limitations on shadowstep will make for it. You will get Dimensional Agility at 11, and only will make use of it (as shadowstep is a standard action) at 13 with Dimensional Assault, reaching your concept at 15 with Dimensional Dervish.
As GM I would allow that.
Just go Ninja/Shadowdancer and ask your GM for use the shadowstep ability for the dimensional agility chain. You have a nice story and concept before the mechanics, and the limitations on shadowstep will make for it. You will get Dimensional Agility at 11, and only will make use of it (as shadowstep is a standard action) at 13 with Dimensional Assault, reaching your concept at 15 with Dimensional Dervish.
As GM I would allow that.
Ninja 2/monk1/ninja3/horizon walker3/ninja11
Insert Sap Master/shatter defenses feats build for ultimate craziness.
Badass build.
You will get D agility at 9 and D dervish at 13
Too bad Sap Master can only be used at the beginning of combat, when the enemy is flat-footed.
With shatter defenses and enforcer it can be used endlessly.
And using invisible blade is the same.
Or flanking. I came to love gang up for that^^.
Klevis 69 suggestion is good, you do a lot of damage then, even if its nonlethal, but its feat heavy and you already want the dimenseon feat line (3 or 5 feats) and need endurance.
sap adept
sap master
weapon focus
dazzling display
shatter defenses
enforcer
would be the way to go.
What you really want is offensive defense rogue talent to boost your AC, since you stand next to the enemy for one round at least.
Sap master doesn't really scream "stab slicing shadowy death". In fact, I was likely goin to have her use short swords and rather than using flurry just pick up TWF and ITWF. It isn't as ideal as using 2 monk weapons and just using flurry but as flurry doesn't progress and TWF does I think it is the better option. Besides, the only monk weapons that I liked for this asthetically were Sai and they are bludgeoning weapons. Kama I just don't really like the asthetic of for dual wielding.
There are a few exotic weapons that I could see her using. Like the Wakizashi and Kusarigama. I'm not sure if I would have room for the feats required to use those though. And since I plan on advancing TWF anyway I think it would just be preferable to stay with short swords.
The only feats that I really need in this build are TWF and the Dimensional ability line to make it work.
Right now I'm thinking that the best build for it would be:
Ninja 1/Monk 1/Ninja 2, 3/Monk 2, 3/Horizon Walker 3/Shadowdancer 10.
I'll likely be posting a build soon for critequing.
1 - Ninja 1: Poison Use, Sneak Attack 1d6, Two Weapon Fighting (1st), Combat Reflexes (Human)
2 - Flowing Monk 1: Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Redirection, Dodge(bonus)
3 - Flowing Monk 2: Unbalancing Counter, Evasion, EWP: Kusarigama (3rd)
4 - Ninja 2: Ki Pool, Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick
5 - Flowing Monk 3: Flowing Dodge, Maneuver Training, Still Mind, Endurance (5th)
6 - Ninja 3: No Trace, Sneak Attack 2d6
7 - Horizon Walker 1: Favored Terrain: Urban, Mobility (7th)
8 - Horizon Walker 2: Favored Terrain: Forest, Terrain Mastery: Underground (Blindfight as bonus feat)
9 - Horizon Walker 3: Terrain Dominance: Astral Plane (+1 attack/damage vs. outsiders, Dimension Door 3+Wis/day), Dimensional Agility (9th)
10 - Shadowdancer 1: Hide in Plain Sight
11 - Shadowdancer 2: Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge, Dimensional Assault(11th)
12 - Shadowdancer 3: Rogue Talent: Shadow Clone, Shadow Illusion, Summon Shadow
13 - Shadowdancer 4: Shadowcall, Shadow jump 40ft., Dimensional Dervish(13th)
14 - Shadowdancer 5: Defensive Roll, Improved Uncanny Dodge
15 - Shadowdancer 6: Rogue Talent, Shadow jump 80ft., Dimensional Savant(15th)
16 - Shadowdancer 7: Slippery Mind
17 - Shadowdancer 8: Shadow Jump 160ft., Shadow Power, Improved TWF(17th)
18 - Shadowdancer 9: Rogue Talent: Sudden Disguise
19 - Shadowdancer 10: Improved Evasion, Shadow jump 320ft., Shadow Master, Weapon Finesse (19th)
Straight Monk would give an extra feat but Flowing Monk gives a lot more opportunities for getting in sneak attack. I'm not sure it is worth the trade off as I can't fit in Weapon Finesse or Improved TWF until WAY late in the build. If I went for a normal Monk then I would probably forgoe the Kusarigama in favor of Wakizashis and just forget about the whole "tripping, making them provoke an AoO which makes them flat footed" thing that the Flowing Monk does. What it gives up for in far more opportunities for sneak attack it makes up for in faster feat aquisition.
Another option I considered was to see if my DM would allow me to have Flowing Dodge count as the Dodge requirement for Mobility and for Shadowdancer's requirement. If I was allowed to do that then it opens the door to fit in Weapon Finesse earlier. I'm still down a feat and can't seem to fit in Improved Two-Weapon Fighting any earlier unless I delayed my Dimensional Agility feat progression. As that feat line is the basis for the build I don't really want to do that.
Any suggestions?
1 - Ninja 1: Poison Use, Sneak Attack 1d6, Two Weapon Fighting (1st), Combat Reflexes (Human)
2 - Flowing Monk 1: Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Redirection, Dodge(bonus)
3 - Flowing Monk 2: Unbalancing Counter, Evasion, EWP: Kusarigama (3rd)
4 - Ninja 2: Ki Pool, Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick
5 - Flowing Monk 3: Flowing Dodge, Maneuver Training, Still Mind, Endurance (5th)
6 - Ninja 3: No Trace, Sneak Attack 2d6
7 - Horizon Walker 1: Favored Terrain: Urban, Mobility (7th)
8 - Horizon Walker 2: Favored Terrain: Forest, Terrain Mastery: Underground (Blindfight as bonus feat)
9 - Horizon Walker 3: Terrain Dominance: Astral Plane (+1 attack/damage vs. outsiders, Dimension Door 3+Wis/day), Dimensional Agility (9th)
10 - Shadowdancer 1: Hide in Plain Sight
11 - Shadowdancer 2: Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge, Dimensional Assault(11th)
12 - Shadowdancer 3: Rogue Talent: Shadow Clone, Shadow Illusion, Summon Shadow
13 - Shadowdancer 4: Shadowcall, Shadow jump 40ft., Dimensional Dervish(13th)
14 - Shadowdancer 5: Defensive Roll, Improved Uncanny Dodge
15 - Shadowdancer 6: Rogue Talent, Shadow jump 80ft., Dimensional Savant(15th)
16 - Shadowdancer 7: Slippery Mind
17 - Shadowdancer 8: Shadow Jump 160ft., Shadow Power, Improved TWF(17th)
18 - Shadowdancer 9: Rogue Talent: Sudden Disguise
19 - Shadowdancer 10: Improved Evasion, Shadow jump 320ft., Shadow Master, Weapon Finesse (19th)Straight Monk would give an extra feat but Flowing Monk gives a lot more opportunities for getting in sneak attack. I'm not sure it is worth the trade off as I can't fit in Weapon Finesse or Improved TWF until WAY late in the build. If I went for a normal Monk then I would probably forgoe the Kusarigama in favor of Wakizashis and just forget about the whole "tripping, making them provoke an AoO which makes them flat footed" thing that the Flowing Monk does. What it gives up for in far more opportunities for sneak attack it makes up for in faster feat aquisition.
Another option I considered was to see if my DM would...
I think continue ninja instead of shadow dancer.
Can get the feats you need.
Thats true with feats but Shadowdancer grants Shadow Jump for use with Dimensional Agility. Ninja does not grant any ability like that. It does give extra feats and Invisible Blade, though. Invisible Blade would be good for this build but it can be easily duplicated with items by that level while the class abilities granted by Shadowdancer can not. I believe Cape of the Mountebank is the only item that does and that is only 1/day. There were more in 3.x - particularly in the magic item compendium - but I would rather not rely on those.
7 - Horizon Walker 1: Favored Terrain: Urban, Mobility (7th)
8 - Horizon Walker 2: Favored Terrain: Forest, Terrain Mastery: Underground (Blindfight as bonus feat)
9 - Horizon Walker 3: Terrain Dominance: Astral Plane (+1 attack/damage vs. outsiders, Dimension Door 3+Wis/day), Dimensional Agility (9th)
If i am not wrong, I think you can only take Terrain dominance over one terrain that has already been selected for Terrain mastery, which isnt the case here.
Ah, you are correct sir. Ok, change that to Terraine Mastery: Astral (+30ft move in planes with no or subjective gravity)then.
Not nearly as useful as Blindfight but then with Darkvision it decreases the usefulness of Blindfight anyway.
Man, Shadow-Walker would just be so much better for this build. Then again, so would the Telflamar Shadowlord PrC. They are just campaign specific 3.x stuff that I'd rather not use in Pathfinder if it can be emulated without. I'm coming close but it still is pales in comparison.
Ninjas get wakizashis, kusarigamas and katana plus some other stuff for free.
I´m playing a flowing monk2/ninja10 halfling and it rocks.
Went the combat expertise -> greater trip route, got a whip with improved whip mastery, gang up and combat reflexes, all in a 20 point buy.
Later i will include combat patrol, use invisible blade and just trip everything in 20 feet radius that moves.
Its real fun because i can trip nearly everything that is tripable.
With the flowing monk stuff no one comes near me hehe.
What also occured to me, as a ninja level 10, all acrobatics DC´s for jumping are halved and you always have a running start. Get expeditious retreat on your boots and you can just jump everywhere.
My personal wish was to include dodge-mobility-spring attack-whirlwind attack to my build, but its too many feats.
Omigosh, your right. They do get those weapons for free! That frees up another feat. Thank you, Hayto Ken. :)
Yeah, I was also thinking of trying to fit in combat expertise and at least improved trip but I can't see where I would fit them. Its really alright though as I wasn't trying to focus overmuch on tripping anyway. Its just that it works so well with flowing monk. Especially as it can make my foe flat footed to me to allow for sneak attacks.
Exactly. My chartacter has now three possibilites for sneak attack:
-invisible blade
-flanking with gang up (we have an oakling monk with 10 foot reach in the group, a paladin and an inquisitor)
-flowing monks redirection (with greater trip and combat reflexes two free sneak attacks, DC 18)
Well, actually unbalancing counter say half the monks level to DC, i hope that´s not only monk levels again. Thats the problem with a lot of cross class stuff, only class levels count on it, although you give up a lot for cross classing in the BAB and saves department.
The other story is with many classes you just dont get enough feats to pull off the feat chains you want and that are fun.
Just go Ninja/Shadowdancer and ask your GM for use the shadowstep ability for the dimensional agility chain. You have a nice story and concept before the mechanics, and the limitations on shadowstep will make for it. You will get Dimensional Agility at 11, and only will make use of it (as shadowstep is a standard action) at 13 with Dimensional Assault, reaching your concept at 15 with Dimensional Dervish.
As GM I would allow that.
Yea, this is the route I would recommend. I would also suggest that you use a rogue archetype that replaces uncanny dodge since you will be getting that from shadowdancer anyway. You can technically do this since Ninja is just a modification of the rogue class ;)
Knife Master to replace poison use and no trace and then scout.
Just go Ninja/Shadowdancer and ask your GM for use the shadowstep ability for the dimensional agility chain. You have a nice story and concept before the mechanics, and the limitations on shadowstep will make for it. You will get Dimensional Agility at 11, and only will make use of it (as shadowstep is a standard action) at 13 with Dimensional Assault, reaching your concept at 15 with Dimensional Dervish.
As GM I would allow that.
It's a house rule that I personally allow in my games, as Shadow Step is actually weaker than Dimension Door / Abundant Step imo.
Why not replace poison use with knife master?
Its the ability that takes that place.
Why not replace poison use with knife master?
Its the ability that takes that place.
I think knife master also replaces trapfinding
Knife Master replaces trap finding and trap sense, imho poison use and no trace. Scout replaces uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge.
I suggest just following the ninja and perhaps investing in the assassin prestige class. Your current build is going to hurt to play in combat.
Knife Master replaces trap finding and trap sense, imho poison use and no trace. Scout replaces uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge.
Does it not seem that Ninja shouldn't be allowed to take Knife Master since they don't have the required class features to be replaced?
Shawdow Dancer really loses its luster after level 2, but if you want the flavour go for it. Mechanically, base classes would be stronger, either the Ninja or Monk route. I would go strong with one dip the other and 3 horizon walker and 2 shadow dancer. A Ki mystic with a ton of vows and horizon walker dip gets the most uses of dimensional agility I can think of
I didn't know that you could use archetypes on alternate classes.
Glutton: While I do like the flavor that by far the sole reason I'm going for the class. It gives a dimension door type ability that works well with dimensional agility. Ki Mystic does not fit the build either thematically or mechanically.
I didn't know that you could use archetypes on alternate classes.
Glutton: While I do like the flavor that by far the sole reason I'm going for the class. It gives a dimension door type ability that works well with dimensional agility. Ki Mystic does not fit the build either thematically or mechanically.
I don't understand why waste time with shadow dancer. Just take the 3 levels in horizon walker and stay with ninja.
I just explained it. More Dimension Door abilities. Ninja doesn't grant that. Its the bread and butter of the build. Why would I NOT go Shadowdancer?
I think it's not worth the sneak attack dice that you sac. Especially if you'll be relying on things like Offensive Defense (pretty much must) to help you survive a full attack before you actually get dervish, you want to keep your sneak attack progression as pure as you can before you get there. Plus, it seems the build is just lacking in damage. Bamfing around is all cool and stuff, but safer to do it a little less and kill stuff faster, imo.
I thought that you could not go both Monk and Ninja since they are alternate classes?
klevis69: The whole idea of the build is bamfing around killing stuff. Like that is my whole entire goal. And since getting further levels of ninja does not help to accomplish this goal it is not in the build.
While I appreciate your advice I would rather it be directed at helping me attain my goal rather than telling me how I can do something that I'm not trying to accomplish better than doing what I am trying to accomplish.
blackbloodtroll: Thank you for providing lostpike with the clarification.
I think what klevis69 tried to point out is that your current build is weak.If you want to "bamf around killing stuff" this build will have huuuge problems with the "killing stuff" part of your plan.
I know you ruled the magus out already but I have to say it would be a whole lot better at what you are trying to do than your current build.I know I said the spellblade is weaker then the regular magus but hes still way stronger then that build.In addition to that the magus gets more "move and full attack" options then any other class and much earlier ,too.With bladed dash you can move and full atack as early as level 4 , at level 7 you get forcehook charge and at level 11 you can get dimensional agility and start dimension door full attacks.And this way you would actually be able to dish out some punishment once you teleport next to your enemy, and thats one thing I´m afraid your current build is not able to do.
Sleet Storm: Magus doesn't give the correct feel mechanically for the build and their attack options aren't as robust. You said that the Magus will, "...actually be able to dish out some punishment once you teleport next to your enemy..." but I don't see how the Magus will be dishing out any more punishment than this build. In fact, I think it will be less.
Unless I'm missing some offensive hidden talent of the Magus that they could use in a full attack? Full attacking with TWF sneak attacks > full attacking with a single 1-handed weapon.
But I'm not totally decided here. I invite you to convince me why the Magus is the right choice cause so far I must be missing what you are seeing.
Sleet Storm: Magus doesn't give the correct feel mechanically for the build and their attack options aren't as robust. You said that the Magus will, "...actually be able to dish out some punishment once you teleport next to your enemy..." but I don't see how the Magus will be dishing out any more punishment than this build. In fact, I think it will be less.
Unless I'm missing some offensive hidden talent of the Magus that they could use in a full attack? Full attacking with TWF sneak attacks > full attacking with a single 1-handed weapon.
But I'm not totally decided here. I invite you to convince me why the Magus is the right choice cause so far I must be missing what you are seeing.
A spell-blade can create a force weapon in his offhand I believe, so you will still be two weapon fighting. Also, you should be able to add a touch spell to your full round attack if you wish.
Personally, I would use the Kensai archetype if you did a Magus/Ninja. It replaces the armor skills with Canny Defense, so you'll get to add Int to defense. Plus the flavor of Kensai kind of fits with Ninja.
Honestly though, I think a ninja/shadowdancer would allow you to reach your 'goal' of teleporting around and doing sneak attacks faster. A Magus can't cast dimension door until 10th level, and then you wouldn't even have any ninja levels. On the other hand, you could get Shadow Jump as a Ninja 5/Shadowdancer 4.
What you have there is a TWF medium BAB build with no major to hit bonuses.You will have strong problem hitting anithing CR apropriate with this build and unbalancing counter will not change that,you have to hit with an AoO for that and then the opponent gets a reflexsave that depends on your monk level so I wouldn´t count on landing that too often.Honestly at mid levels it will be almost irrelevant already.2d6 sneak attack from are not amazing too and sneak attack is conditional.
As for the Magus: The offensive talents of the magus are in no way hidden, its probably the strongest damage dealer in the game right now besides a summoners eidolon,and taking the spellblade will still let you end up with top tier damage.As you don´t seem to see the damage capabilities of the magus i´ll give you a few hins
-Arcane weapon enchantments
-Arcane Accuracy
-Hasted Assault
-Accurate Strike
-Critical Strike
-Devoted Blade
-Bane Blade
-Arcane Edge
Trust me Ninja/Rouges got nothing on the Magus damagewise,(even if they go straight Ninja and get Full Sneak Attack progression) and honestly not in any other way.
EDIT: OOOOH, I forgot you also get to buff yourself up with spells like Heroism and all that good stuff:)
..........
Honestly though, I think a ninja/shadowdancer would allow you to reach your 'goal' of teleporting around and doing sneak attacks faster. A Magus can't cast dimension door until 10th level, and then you wouldn't even have any ninja levels. On the other hand, you could get Shadow Jump as a Ninja 5/Shadowdancer 4.
Well even with Ninja 5/Shadowdancer 4 you would not get Dimensional Dervish before level 13.The Magus on the other hand doesn´t even need Dimensional Dervish,just get Dimensional Agility at level 11 and you can start Dimension Door Full Attacking right away.
Just my 2 cents
Sleet Storm, I do understand what your saying and it wouldn't make a bad character, for sure. I didn't really miss anything about what your saying and I do think it is strong damage but it doesn't give as robust of combat options as I believe my build does. Also I think you are missing some potential of my build.
1. If it is the surprise round skip to 3.
2. Vanishing trick, declare charge
3. Dimension Door, pop in and get a flat footed trip attack at +2 to attack +6 to CMB.
4. Continue your dimensional dervish by popping onto the other side of your foe, you are now flanking so you get a sneak attack.
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until you run out of itterive and off hand attacks each of which should be paired as a trip and a strike.
6. End turn threatening an opponent who is prone.
7. On opponent's turn if they attack you (with severe negatives as they are sickened and attacking from prone) you get an AoO which they are flat footed for allowing you to sneak attack them. If they stand, you get an AoO that they are flat footed for and you can sneak attack them. If they are really stupid they could do both provoking twice.
8. If more opponents approach for vengence they provoke AoOs from movement which you can choose to either sneak attack them or trip them with a preference toward tripping. The more opponents who actually are able to get within threatening distance the higher your AC goes.
If I can work in Greater Trip as well then they provoke an AoO when they get tripped allowing another trip. If I can get Flowing Dodge to count as a prereq for Dodge then it shouldn't be an issue. IMO it should as it replaces Dodge. While it isn't RAW I'm fairly certain my DM would go for it. With that and the extra feat I would get by taking out the EWP which the character already gets from Ninja that frees up 2 more feats. Allowing for sooner aquisition of ITWF and Greater Trip.
Yes, it is only 2d6 sneak attack along with the base damage of the build. However, with the number of times that she should be triggering it and being able to Dimensional Dervish it should happen fairly often and all those 2d6 will add up quickly.
While I understand what you are going for with the Magus and how it would work it doesn't really fit the theme of the build. They aren't a skill monkey sneaky type build at all. They aren't ninja types or shadow lurkers. They don't have shadowy powers. They are arcanists rather than martial types. They use armor rather than are a dextereous dodgy type. They aren't good at TWF as it would make them severely MAD. To me it just doesn't feel like it fits the build. I know you want it to and you probably love the Magus but it is a square peice trying to fit into a round hole IMO. I mean no offense by this and I DO value your opinions and advice.
I have redone the build. This build works under the assumption that Flowing Dodge works as a prerequisite for Mobility. Also, I took out EWP: Kusarigama as the Ninja gets this for free. I have moved the Rogue Tricks around a bit to pick up a feat (Greater Trip) earlier as it synergizes very well with the build. I still couldn't manage to get ITWF any sooner than level 17 which really blows but I felt I had higher priorities. With the number of AoO the character should be getting I felt that I should focus more on Greater Trip to allow for more Sneak Attacks of Opportunity as that is what fuels the character's attacks rather than TWF.
1 - Ninja 1: Poison Use, Sneak Attack 1d6, Two Weapon Fighting (1st), Combat Reflexes (Human)
2 - Flowing Monk 1: Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Redirection, Weapon Finesse (bonus)
3 - Flowing Monk 2: Unbalancing Counter, Evasion, Improved Trip (3rd)
4 - Ninja 2: Ki Pool, Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick
5 - Flowing Monk 3: Flowing Dodge, Maneuver Training, Still Mind, Endurance (5th)
6 - Ninja 3: No Trace, Sneak Attack 2d6
7 - Horizon Walker 1: Favored Terrain: Urban, Mobility (7th)
8 - Horizon Walker 2: Favored Terrain: Forest, Terrain Mastery: Underground (Blindfight as bonus feat)
9 - Horizon Walker 3: Terrain Dominance: Astral Plane (+1 attack/damage vs. outsiders, Dimension Door 3+Wis/day), Dimensional Agility (9th)
10 - Shadowdancer 1: Hide in Plain Sight
11 - Shadowdancer 2: Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge, Dimensional Assault(11th)
12 - Shadowdancer 3: Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Greater Trip, Shadow Illusion, Summon Shadow
13 - Shadowdancer 4: Shadowcall, Shadow jump 40ft., Dimensional Dervish(13th)
14 - Shadowdancer 5: Defensive Roll, Improved Uncanny Dodge
15 - Shadowdancer 6: Rogue Talent: Shadow Clone, Shadow jump 80ft., Dimensional Savant (15th)
16 - Shadowdancer 7: Slippery Mind
17 - Shadowdancer 8: Shadow Jump 160ft., Shadow Power, Improved TWF (17th)
18 - Shadowdancer 9: Rogue Talent: Sudden Disguise
19 - Shadowdancer 10: Improved Evasion, Shadow jump 320ft., Shadow Master, Dimensional Maneuvers (19th)
Weaknesses I see in the build:
1. Redirection will be limited to 3/day. This shouldn't be a big issue as her foes will likely be provoking attacks from standing up, moving through her threatened area or doing stupid provokish type stuff (trying to cast a spell, drink a potion, etc) fairly often. Especially when they don't know that she is there as she can pop invisible with Vanishing Trick.
2. Unbalancing Counter is Monk level dependant. Even with a fairly low DC (Ref save vs DC10+1+Wis) it will still likely happen frequently on foes with weak Ref saves. Besides this will typically be in combination with a Trip attack with decent bonuses or in reaction to an AoO and thus triggering Redirection. Its kinda just gravy. It also gives more reason to pump Wis which is already a very important stat for this build.
3. I need more ways to get Dimension Door type effects. I think I have exhausted class abilities as much as I can so it basically falls to equipment. I plan on having high ranks in UMD so that might be able to help with wands, etc. Especially important will be wands of Mirror Image (very in theme) and Dimension Door. I would prefer use/day items like the Cape of the Montebank but they appear to be in short supply. Ideas on other items with similar effects?
Dangit. I just realized that I missed Monk 4 to actually get a Ki Pool as I don't plan on putting points into the worthless Charisma stat to get the Ninja Ki Pool. I do, however, plan on putting points into Wisdom as it it a much better stat for the build.
Now...where to fit in that pesky level of Monk...