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Hey all. I have been reading the description of Mirror Image. It seems to be saying that magic missile with multiple missiles at different figments won't work like in the old days. (1st, 2nd, and all the 3rd editions)of D&D. Since magic missile is not a roll-to-hit spell... Can someone please clarify whether magic missile can still be used to get rid of multiple figments? Thanx
...I guess, the question is is Each of these figments considered a "Creature", or if targeting the Creature will automatically hit the original... correct?
Edit: Sorry... Amateur response, but it seems like Magic Missile will strike them no matter what, as long as the original does not have total concealment/cover. And Mirror Image doesn't grant that. And I don't know if the images can Fool the Spell itself into thinking there are multiple creatures.
In other words, if the caster tried... They'd all hit the original.
Confirmations, anyone?
That's correct. Spells that don't require an attack roll are resolved the same way they'd be if mirror image wasn't up.
...I guess, the question is is Each of these figments considered a "Creature", or if targeting the Creature will automatically hit the original... correct?
Edit: Sorry... Amateur response, but it seems like Magic Missile will strike them no matter what, as long as the original does not have total concealment/cover. And Mirror Image doesn't grant that. And I don't know if the images can Fool the Spell itself into thinking there are multiple creatures.
In other words, if the caster tried... They'd all hit the original.
Confirmations, anyone?
Reading the text of both spell descriptions, what they both seem to say is, you can hit the "real" creature with as many missiles as you like, but you can't affect any of the figments. Or...a hit on a figment won't make it disappear, and will be wasted...that is likely how my current gm will play it. I wish the rules would have given a specific reference to these 2 spells effects on each other...
Reading the text of both spell descriptions, what they both seem to say is, you can hit the "real" creature with as many missiles as you like, but you can't affect any of the figments. Or...a hit on a figment won't make it disappear, and will be wasted...that is likely how my current gm will play it. I wish the rules would have given a specific reference to these 2 spells effects on each other......I guess, the question is is Each of these figments considered a "Creature", or if targeting the Creature will automatically hit the original... correct?
Edit: Sorry... Amateur response, but it seems like Magic Missile will strike them no matter what, as long as the original does not have total concealment/cover. And Mirror Image doesn't grant that. And I don't know if the images can Fool the Spell itself into thinking there are multiple creatures.
In other words, if the caster tried... They'd all hit the original.
Confirmations, anyone?
Heh...U and I came to the same conclusion about 38 seconds apart. :-p Thanks to all who responded.
Magic missile requires you to target the creature. There are many images, but only one creature so you can't really hit an image. This is also supported by the need for an attack roll as quoted above. An image is not a caster. Each image is a target for though as far as attacks rolls go which is why attacks rolls are foiled by them. If they wanted it to foil spells also then they would not have made a limitation on attack rolls to be the only way to get rid of them.
Magic Missile hits automatically.
That doesn't mean the spell is "almost useless", even if it is "bypassed" by a 1st-level spell.
It's like saying stone skin is useless because magic missile can bypass it.
Mirror image is not meant to defend against magic. It's meant to defend against some brute hitting you with a claw or sword or other physical form of attack. It fulfils that purpose most admiringly.
Magic Missile hits automatically.
That doesn't mean the spell is "almost useless", even if it is "bypassed" by a 1st-level spell.
It's like saying stone skin is useless because magic missile can bypass it.
Mirror image is not meant to defend against magic. It's meant to defend against some brute hitting you with a claw or sword or other physical form of attack. It fulfils that purpose most admiringly.
Unless the brute thug has the feat 'Great Cleave'
Still means you'll only be hit once. Without that, the guy would probably hit you at least twice.
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Cleave won't work. Regardless of how many images there are, there's still only one foe.
Mirror Image doesn't present you with multiple "targets" to attack. Just like with Magic Missile, there's only one target, the caster. All Mirror Image does is add a miss chance.
That's rubbish. Magic Missile was always a good spell to use against Mirror Image as you could aim an individual missile at each image taking out the images. Saying it ignores the images and goes straight to the real wizard sucks big time. How can the caster know which "image" to cast the spell at? She would have to aim it at one specific image not in the general vicinity.
How can the caster know which "image" to cast the spell at?
I hate to say it (because it is the actual answer), but: Frikking Magic!
I hate to say it (because it is the actual answer), but: Frikking Magic!
On that basis you don't need to do anything as a caster except wave your hands in the general direction of "away from yourself" and any spell you cast will hit what you want "by magic". Reminds me of the dum dum bullets in Roger Rabbit.
Does anyone let the target of magic missile make a reflex roll? What about fireball and lighting? Just curious
I run by the rules. Magic missile is an autohit, while the other spells only require a reflex saves if they mention one.
I hate to say it (because it is the actual answer), but: Frikking Magic!On that basis you don't need to do anything as a caster except wave your hands in the general direction of "away from yourself" and any spell you cast will hit what you want "by magic". Reminds me of the dum dum bullets in Roger Rabbit.
Not "any spell", just the ones that don't call for an attack roll and fit within how the rules work for the current situation.
That's rubbish. Magic Missile was always a good spell to use against Mirror Image as you could aim an individual missile at each image taking out the images. Saying it ignores the images and goes straight to the real wizard sucks big time. How can the caster know which "image" to cast the spell at? She would have to aim it at one specific image not in the general vicinity.
So according to you, Mirror Image, a 2nd-level spell, could negate Flesh to Stone, a 6th-level spell, just because the caster of Flesh to Stone targeted one of the images instead of the real wizard. That would make Mirror Image the ultimate protection against save or die spells, and that would be real rubbish IMO.
Agreed that magic missle is auto hit but the caster still has to pick a target and that means he has to make a choise as he does not know which one is real.
So i would say that the missles hit what ever he noninates as the target which could be one of the images because yes they are auto hit but they hit what the caster picks as a target and if he picks wrong then they miss
That's a nice house rule, but it doesn't work that way according to the RAW.
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Magic missile can't hit the figments because magic missile only affects creatures, which figments are not.
Magic missile can't hit the figments because magic missile only affects creatures, which figments are not.
Yep, Abraham is right. It's not because it worked in a certain way in the old Black Ilse isometric D&D computer games that it should work the same way in Pathfinder. ;)
I hate to say it (because it is the actual answer), but: Frikking Magic!On that basis you don't need to do anything as a caster except wave your hands in the general direction of "away from yourself" and any spell you cast will hit what you want "by magic". Reminds me of the dum dum bullets in Roger Rabbit.
Have you read the magic missile spell?
Agreed that magic missle is auto hit but the caster still has to pick a target and that means he has to make a choise as he does not know which one is real.
So i would say that the missles hit what ever he noninates as the target which could be one of the images because yes they are auto hit but they hit what the caster picks as a target and if he picks wrong then they miss
Screw that. I'll just use burning hands. Or fireball. By your logic, that instantly pops all the images since an area spell affects all targets in its area, and those images are all in the same space as the caster.
Is the way the rules work totally logical? Not necessarily. But we're talking about a game that simulates magic. Logic will not always have a place there. And, as I just proved, this can go both ways. Think it's bad that the spell doesn't protect you from magic missiles? That's nothing compared to the case where every area spell will not just fry you, but do away with all your mirror images, so better pray that no spellcaster you ever meet has even the slightest preference for evocation.
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Cleave won't work. Regardless of how many images there are, there's still only one foe.
Mirror Image doesn't present you with multiple "targets" to attack. Just like with Magic Missile, there's only one target, the caster. All Mirror Image does is add a miss chance.I disagree.
Here is the relevant passage from the spell mirror image:
Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed.
So, the great cleave attack would possibly target an image. If it hits and destroys the image, the brute gets to attack an adjacent target. They target you, but roll an image instead (dang those shifting images!). They hit and destroy the image. So they get to target an adjacent foe. They would like to target you, but frustratingly target an image instead...
Great cleave would not work.
per the feat:
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
The wizard and his images are not different foes. You are only targeting the wizard.
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Ah, but you are wrong when you say that the user of the feat 'Great Cleave' is only targeting the wizard. The spell 'mirror image' clearly states, 'Whenever you are attacked or are the...Cleave won't work. Regardless of how many images there are, there's still only one foe.
Mirror Image doesn't present you with multiple "targets" to attack. Just like with Magic Missile, there's only one target, the caster. All Mirror Image does is add a miss chance.I disagree.
Here is the relevant passage from the spell mirror image:
Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed.
So, the great cleave attack would possibly target an image. If it hits and destroys the image, the brute gets to attack an adjacent target. They target you, but roll an image instead (dang those shifting images!). They hit and destroy the image. So they get to target an adjacent foe. They would like to target you, but frustratingly target an image instead...
Great cleave would not work.
per the feat:
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.The wizard and his images are not different foes. You are only targeting the wizard.
Ah but you're missing the point that all the figments and the caster all share the same space and thus are not adjacent to each other. Cleave and Great Cleave require seperate creatures in seperate adjacent spaces. You cannot Cleave mirror image.
--Vrocking Grasp
Magic missle automatically hits the wizard as the only viable target of the spell. If you are really that worried about 1d4+1 cast shield.
Edit - I dont think ive seen a mage past level 4 that hasnt had Mage armor , Blur , Shield and Mirror image up constantly ( The last 3 used with a meta magic rod of lesser extend )
Edit 2 - linking spells
Mirror Image
School illusion (figment); Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level
This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.
When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly.Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead.If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).
and
Magic Missile
School evocation [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.
The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat, so long as it has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out. Objects are not damaged by the spell.
For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.
Magic missle doesnt have an attack roll. Mirror image only triggers on attack rolls. /thread
I removed a post. Let's be civil, please, even if the topic has been brought up before.
I'd rule that Great Cleave wouldn't work because ultimately, you are still attacking the same foe as the attack that destroyed one of the images. Mirror Images don't count as a separate foe because they themselves can not be targeted.
I'd rule that Great Cleave wouldn't work because ultimately, you are still attacking the same foe as the attack that destroyed one of the images. Mirror Images don't count as a separate foe because they themselves can not be targeted.
Great Cleave (Combat)
You can strike many adjacent foes with a single blow.Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
The mirror images are in your square not adjacent to you. Great cleave will not work.
I'd rule that Great Cleave wouldn't work because ultimately, you are still attacking the same foe as the attack that destroyed one of the images. Mirror Images don't count as a separate foe because they themselves can not be targeted.Great Cleave (Combat)
You can strike many adjacent foes with a single blow.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +4.Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
The mirror images are in your square not adjacent to you. Great cleave will not work.
I wasn't arguing that point. I was offering more of an explanation in the event someone tried to be clever with their interpretation of adjacent, especially if the group didn't use miniatures.
There is only room for debate if you completely ignore what is actually in the text of each ability or spell in question.
This is becoming one of those 'teach the controversy' things isn't it?
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you clearly have missed the point that I'm trying to make.
That in my oppion there is room for debate on this subject and I'm belive that it's not so black and white as other believe
It is as debatable as saying that you are timing your spells to hit the wizard who has blink up. In both cases, you have to obey the rules of the spell. And since Mirror image states that all spells that do not require an attack roll do not pop images, then magic missile (which does not require an attack roll) does not pop an image.