Is there anyplace in the FAQ, or anywhere, that I can print an explaination with examples to had to my judge before the game starts so that I can find out how it is going to work during the game?
Are you asking for examples of when your character is in immediate danger or distracted?
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"When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10".
I think any time your character is not threatened or would need to make a Concentration check if he were casting a spell, it is okay to take 10. I would accept the argument that you can't take 10 near combat, as how immediate immediate danger is can be interpreted differently.
There is currently not an FAQ, official or other wise. There is still argument over what "immediate danger" means.
Actually I'd jump over to PFS General and post your experience with this issue. I'd also encourage our GMs and fellow players to come join you there and relate their side the confusion. Maybe that way we'll get a faster response and some clarification of those folks who don't seem to really get how Take 10 is supposed to work.
*edit*
I'm with Ryan. Costello, personally. Combat is called out as being equivalent to "immediate danger". While it got lost from PF Core, there used to be an example of a Barbarian Iconic character using take 10 to climb a cliff back in the 3.5 rule book. He could, even on the most nasty surface. Then goblins start shooting arrows at him and he is now in "immediate danger".
Agreed, if a Wizard would have to make a concentration check to cast, that a good sign of distraction.
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I went to a con this past week, and as always, played at several tables for several different judges. As often happens, I get "instructed in the game", "corrected" on the rules of a game I thought I understood. So, I'm going to come here and see if I can check up on some of the things I thought I knew.
I know we have beat the Take 10 rule to death. And I can read the rule to the DM before/during/after a game, get him to read it, etc. But there is still problems with when I can take 10. Is there anyplace in the FAQ, or anywhere, that I can print an explaination with examples to had to my judge before the game starts so that I can find out how it is going to work during the game?
If not I will try to put one together, but I don't want to repeat something someone else has already done.
Thanks everybody!
I've seriously considered having a T-shirt made with the Take 10 rules on the front, with some lines highlighted, and wearing it to every PFS session I go to for the rest of time.
Anyway, let's go over Take 10:
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
Now, there's plenty of debate as to what constitutes being "in immediate danger or distracted", so I won't bother touching that here. Probably best to leave it up to the GM. There is one big thing worth pointing out, though:
Starting about halfway down, it describes the Take 10 mechanic as typically being "purely a safety measure" that you employ when you "fear that a poor roll might fail".
Whatever your interpretation of when you can and can't use Take 10, if your interpretation couldn't be called a "safety measure", you're doing it wrong.
For instance, I had one GM who, when asked if a PC could take 10 on a check, would ask what their bonus was. He then would only let them "take 10" if their bonus was high enough that it was impossible to fail the skill check (keeping in mind that skills don't auto-fail on a 1). This method is incorrect because he turned it from a "safety measure" into more of a "you can't fail so don't bother rolling". The mechanic specifically states that you use it when you fear that a low roll will fail, yet the GM only allowed it when you couldn't fail. Thus, this was incorrect.
So to reiterate, Take 10 is a safety measure that is explicitly described as a method used to avoid a potential failure. Any interpretation to the contrary, then, is incorrect.
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I tell the DM that I am going to take 10 on Perception and someone (DM or other player) says - "that is going to take too long". Or I say I'll take 10 on a Disable Device to open a lock. "Nope, can't do that. There's a chance for failure" (arguement ensues - other players are upset at me for not rolling dice and "getting on with this").
Flips metaphorical table in anger over people still confusing Take 10 for Take 20. RRRAAAA! My gods, they're two different f****** entries with two totally different uses! How are people still f****** this up. YES! You can take 10 on a roll with a chance of failure, THAT'S WHAT IT'S THERE FOR (and you can print this out and hand it to your next GM)!!! NO, take 10 does not take longer to perform, it is not 10 tries, it is ONE try assuming an AVERAGE 10 result for SAFETY because YOU DON'T WANT TO RISK FAILURE!!! RAARAAWW!!!
I ask to take 10 on a Stealth roll to peak around a corner and see if anything is in the next room (or crack a door open) and get the response "Can't do that"
Okay... that one's harder to call, but unless there is active combat (not the threat of combat) Take 10 should still apply.
*Edit*
Also please remind them that there are no Auto-Fail (on 1) or Auto-Pass (on 20) for Skill checks. To repeat, Skill checks do not Auto-Fail or Auto-Pass.
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In a way yes, I guess. The problem arises for things like Perception checks. I tell the DM that I am going to take 10 on Perception and someone (DM or other player) says - "that is going to take too long".
This sounds like they're confusing it with Take 20, which involves (in game time) making about twenty separate checks. Take 10, however, is a single check - identical in game time, and faster in real time. Their mistake.
Or I say I'll take 10 on a Disable Device to open a lock. "Nope, can't do that. There's a chance for failure" (arguement ensues - other players are upset at me for not rolling dice and "getting on with this").
Sounds like again they're confusing it with Take 20, which (due to actually being a long series of checks with most of them being failures) can't be done if anything bad happens on a failure. Take 10, however, is supposed to be for the purposes of avoiding failure, so "chance for failure" is not sufficient reason to disallow taking 10. Now, if the known penalty is considered severe enough that it qualifies as "immediate danger or distract[ion]" then that's a different story. But if you're picking a lock that you think is safe to pick and there's nothing else going on, you can absolutely take 10.
I ask to take 10 on a Stealth roll to peak around a corner and see if anything is in the next room (or crack a door open) and get the response "Can't do that" and I don't know if it's because the Judge is saying he doesn't allow it on Stealth rolls or if it's cause it's an opposed roll, or if it's 'cause it's Sunday of the CON and the judge is short on sleep, or if it's 'cause I don't understand the rules or what.
Tough to say on that one - I'd need more context. If it's a tense, high-adrenaline situation, then it would be reasonable to invoke the "distracted" clause. But if you're only peeking because that's your SOP and you don't even really expect to see anything, you should probably be allowed to take 10 on both the stealth and the perception.
So, I would like something to hand the judge before the game to say, "This is the way Take 10 works. If it doesn't work that way for you, please tell me the differences so that I can addapt my playing style to suit your game."
Frankly, what you should be handing them is the rules themselves. Unfortunately, most people either don't read them or refuse to re-assess their understanding so it doesn't work.
I'm with Ryan. Costello, personally. Combat is called out as being equivalent to "immediate danger". While it got lost from PF Core, there used to be an example of a Barbarian Iconic character using take 10 to climb a cliff back in the 3.5 rule book. He could, even on the most nasty surface. Then goblins start shooting arrows at him and he is now in "immediate danger".
-In the example in question, Krusk absolutely could not fall off the cliff even on a roll of a one, so he was in no danger from the cliff itself. The worst he could do was make 0 progress, which isn't a problem when you're climbing up a cliff, but is a problem when you're being shot at.
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@BNW: Let's please not get into what does or does not count as a distraction for Take 10. There's so much misunderstanding of the mechanic that we could improve its use twentyfold without even touching that particular piece, so let's stick to the obvious-yet-somehow-misunderstood bits rather than let said bits get lost in what could become a lengthy and unproductive back-and-forth.
Back to my original question:
Is there anyplace in the FAQ, or anywhere else, that has an explaination (with examples please!) that I can hand to a judge before a game starts so that I can find out how "Takeing 10" is going to work during the game?
Sadly, no. It's likely the developers feel that most questions about Take 10 are sufficiently answered by the core rules themselves and therefore don't merit further attention. On the other hand, they FAQ'd the already-explicit-in-the-rules topic of readying a charge, so there may be hope after all.
@James: Yeah, I really with they weren't named so similarly. Even something like "Casual Effort" and "Repetitive Thoroughness" would be an improvement.
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So I guess I'll just have to make my own Judge sheet. Had one a long time ago in LG, a sheet I handed each Judge before a game so I could understand how to play in his/her game. And the T-Shirt. Got to get me a T-Shirt (or more than one) made.
Make a list of sample situations where you might want to take 10, and have a column to the side marked "Would you let me take 10?" and a "Yes/No" pair of check boxes next to each situation. Hand a copy to your GM before each session and ask them to check the boxes as appropriate.
Presto! You have a written guide for what that GM will or will not allow Take 10 to be used for, and can avoid lengthy debates at the table and also plan your tactics accordingly. Just make sure your examples are thorough and explicit so there's no room for "well, depends on..." variations.
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It's likely the developers feel that most questions about Take 10 are sufficiently answered by the core rules themselves and therefore don't merit further attention.
I think it's less that they feel the rules are clear in every circumstance, and more that they like leaving some things somewhat vague so that each DM can tailor it to his game.
For nosig:
Time required to take 10:
Sean K Reynolds (Developer): "Taking 10 requires only as much time as making one check."
Is the action I'm performing a distraction?
Sean K Reynolds (Developer): "Let your players Take 10 unless they're in combat or they're distracted by something other than the task at hand. It's just there to make the game proceed faster so you don't have big damn heroes failing to accomplish inconsequential things."
Can I Take-10 on opposed rolls, like Stealth?
Sean K Reynolds (Developer): "It's really no different than being a lazy player with a +9 Stealth rogue who thinks he can take 10 on a Stealth check past a guard because he thinks the guard is just some +2 Spot loser... except he doesn't know the guard is actually an important NPC with a +10 Spot. You take 10 when you believe an average roll will succeed; if it turns out that belief is wrong, you'll suffer the consequences."
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For nosig:
Time required to take 10:
Sean K Reynolds (Developer): "Taking 10 requires only as much time as making one check."Is the action I'm performing a distraction?
Sean K Reynolds (Developer): "Let your players Take 10 unless they're in combat or they're distracted by something other than the task at hand. It's just there to make the game proceed faster so you don't have big damn heroes failing to accomplish inconsequential things."Can I Take-10 on opposed rolls, like Stealth?
Sean K Reynolds (Developer): "It's really no different than being a lazy player with a +9 Stealth rogue who thinks he can take 10 on a Stealth check past a guard because he thinks the guard is just some +2 Spot loser... except he doesn't know the guard is actually an important NPC with a +10 Spot. You take 10 when you believe an average roll will succeed; if it turns out that belief is wrong, you'll suffer the consequences."
Holy balls, Grick. You've got the strongest search-fu I've ever seen. How many feats did that cost you?
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It's likely the developers feel that most questions about Take 10 are sufficiently answered by the core rules themselves and therefore don't merit further attention.I think it's less that they feel the rules are clear in every circumstance, and more that they like leaving some things somewhat vague so that each DM can tailor it to his game.
For nosig:
Time required to take 10:
Sean K Reynolds (Developer): "Taking 10 requires only as much time as making one check."Is the action I'm performing a distraction?
Sean K Reynolds (Developer): "Let your players Take 10 unless they're in combat or they're distracted by something other than the task at hand. It's just there to make the game proceed faster so you don't have big damn heroes failing to accomplish inconsequential things."I'm also going to link to this thread every time I ever see another take-10 thread pop up in here. Happens ALL THE TIME.
Can I Take-10 on opposed rolls, like Stealth?
Sean K Reynolds (Developer): "It's really no different than being a lazy player with a +9 Stealth rogue who thinks he can take 10 on a Stealth check past a guard because he thinks the guard is just some +2 Spot loser... except he doesn't know the guard is actually an important NPC with a +10 Spot. You take 10 when you believe an average roll will succeed; if it turns out that belief is wrong, you'll suffer the consequences."
Thank you SO much for posting that and saving me from having to argue back and forth with BNW about what constitutes an immediate threat. The last take 10 thread was ridiculous.
Seriously, I'm going to print this out and take it to every PFS game I play in. In fact, just last week I was playing and decided to take 10 on something and had to explain "No, that's the rule for take 20. Take 10 doesn't work that way."
@BNW: Let's please not get into what does or does not count as a distraction for Take 10. There's so much misunderstanding of the mechanic that we could improve its use twentyfold without even touching that particular piece, so let's stick to the obvious-yet-somehow-misunderstood bits rather than let said bits get lost in what could become a lengthy and unproductive back-and-forth.
-Its kind of central to the point. You don't want to just make a contrary ruling, you want the player to be able to tell the DM that they're flat out wrong. That takes evidence above and beyond anything you're going to be able to print on a shirt.
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@BNW: Let's please not get into what does or does not count as a distraction for Take 10. There's so much misunderstanding of the mechanic that we could improve its use twentyfold without even touching that particular piece, so let's stick to the obvious-yet-somehow-misunderstood bits rather than let said bits get lost in what could become a lengthy and unproductive back-and-forth.
-Its kind of central to the point. You don't want to just make a contrary ruling, you want the player to be able to tell the DM that they're flat out wrong. That takes evidence above and beyond anything you're going to be able to print on a shirt.
Kind of a moot point now, given SKR's comments that Grick linked.
Relatedly, I totally just favorited Grick's post AND all three posts that he linked. :D
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@BNW: Let's please not get into what does or does not count as a distraction for Take 10. There's so much misunderstanding of the mechanic that we could improve its use twentyfold without even touching that particular piece, so let's stick to the obvious-yet-somehow-misunderstood bits rather than let said bits get lost in what could become a lengthy and unproductive back-and-forth.
-Its kind of central to the point. You don't want to just make a contrary ruling, you want the player to be able to tell the DM that they're flat out wrong. That takes evidence above and beyond anything you're going to be able to print on a shirt.
Except that we just found the rulings specifically stated by SKR about what a take 10 can be used for. I want that on a shirt.
By the way, for the record, you were wrong.
Kind of a moot point now, given SKR's comments that Grick linked.
Not unless you want to read into them alot.
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Kind of a moot point now, given SKR's comments that Grick linked.Not unless you want to read into them alot.
FYI, the second linked comment is actually longer than what Grick quoted. SKR actually gives an example of climbing where you would fall if you rolled a 1, 2, 3, or 4 so you just take 10 instead. Have a look; it's a pretty thorough and helpful post. :)
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By the way, for the record, you were wrong.Hey now, let's be nice and focus on how awesome it is that SKR resolved the issue and that Grick found said resolution for everyone.
Sorry, I'm just still bitter about the last time I had to explain this over and over to BNW and he just wasn't getting it.
@BNW: what exactly about this statement takes "reading into"?
Let your players Take 10 unless they're in combat or they're distracted by something other than the task at hand.
That's pretty cut and dry.
Sorry, I'm just still bitter about the last time I had to explain this over and over to BNW and he just wasn't getting it.
Yes yes, someone had the temerity to disagree with the great and glorious you on the internet.
@BNW: what exactly about this statement takes "reading into"?
Read the rest of it.
Its for failing at inconsequential things. Sneaking past the sleeping dragon is not inconsequential.
It is for trivial things: ditto.
The purpose of Take 10 is to allow you to avoid the swinginess of the d20 roll in completing a task that should be easy for you
-Sneaking past the sleeping dragon was not by any estimation easy.
-The rule is there to prevent weirdness from the fact that you can roll 1 on tasks you shouldn't fail at under normal circumstances.
Note that its not there to remove all randomness.
Why not let them Take 10 and get on to something relevant to the adventure that's actually a threat, like a trap, monster, or shady NPC?
ie, take 10 is not for dealing with actual threats.
Let your players Take 10 unless they're in combat or they're distracted by something other than the task at hand.That's pretty cut and dry.
Time required to take 10:
Sean K Reynolds (Developer): "Taking 10 requires only as much time as making one check."Is the action I'm performing a distraction?
Sean K Reynolds (Developer): "Let your players Take 10 unless they're in combat or they're distracted by something other than the task at hand. It's just there to make the game proceed faster so you don't have big damn heroes failing to accomplish inconsequential things."Can I Take-10 on opposed rolls, like Stealth?
Sean K Reynolds (Developer): "It's really no different than being a lazy player with a +9 Stealth rogue who thinks he can take 10 on a Stealth check past a guard because he thinks the guard is just some +2 Spot loser... except he doesn't know the guard is actually an important NPC with a +10 Spot. You take 10 when you believe an average roll will succeed; if it turns out that belief is wrong, you'll suffer the consequences."
Nice!
SKR and co: Can we get this kind of stuff in the FAQ at some point? Because, honestly, Take 10 is a topic that comes up pretty regularly and it would be awesome to put it to bed once and for all.
-Sneaking past the sleeping dragon was not by any estimation easy.
That depends entirely on who you are and how good as stealth you are.
If you can Take 10 and succeed? Then yes, for you it's an easy task.
The great thing about Take 10 is it's self policing that way. You're clanking around in full plate and a tower shield and end up with -8 Stealth? Well, go ahead and Take 10 to get your 2 Stealth to get past the sleeping dragon. It's not going to work, but you can do it.
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-Sneaking past the sleeping dragon was not by any estimation easy.
That depends entirely on who you are and how good as stealth you are.
If you can Take 10 and succeed? Then yes, for you it's an easy task.
The great thing about Take 10 is it's self policing that way. You're clanking around in full plate and a tower shield and end up with -8 Stealth? Well, go ahead and Take 10 to get your 2 Stealth to get past the sleeping dragon. It's not going to work, but you can do it.
Relatedly, keep this in mind, from the third SKR quote:
You take 10 when you believe an average roll will succeed; if it turns out that belief is wrong, you'll suffer the consequences.
Actually I don't what to "tell the DM that they're flat out wrong." I just want to have them tell me how they play it.
Well, since there's a lot of subjectivity involved, every dm will tell you they're doing it by the rules. (and to some extent their right)
I can't see any way to do this other than asking the dm about specific scenarios.
-You are leaping over a 10 foot wide chasm with a 100 foot drop
-You are leaping over a 10 foot wide chasm with a 100 foot drop and lava is rapidly rising
I think you can extrapolate how the DM is reading it from their answer to those two questions.
If its a con situation its definitely isn't worth the time it takes to argue it out. They're DMing, just roll with it and ask the boards later, or ask "can i take 10 if i try to ________" BEFORE you try doing it.
If you can Take 10 and succeed? Then yes, for you it's an easy task.
Yes, but if you're a 20th level rogue sneaking past a white dragon with the yolk sac still attached then you're not in danger either.
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-You are leaping over a 10 foot wide chasm with a 100 foot drop
-You are leaping over a 10 foot wide chasm with a 100 foot drop and lava is rapidly rising
Or better yet, lava chasing you down the hallway in which the jump is made.
Personally, I'd rule the "are you threatened/distracted?" issue based on likely adrenaline level.
Cleared out a room and now you're working on disabling a device you just found? Take 10.
Room's rapidly filling with water as you frantically try to unlock the only door, most likely chanting "crap crap crap crap crap crap" (or something else that'd be censored here) as you work on it? Nope, gonna have to roll it.
Walking around and you encounter a broken bridge that you need to jump across (or swim across the river)? Sure, take 10.
Same thing, only encountered while chasing the BBEG, trying to catch up to him before he reaches location X where he intends to commit Atrocities Unspeakable which you desperately need to prevent? Nope, you're under duress of sorts, gotta roll that junk.
Yes, but if you're a 20th level rogue sneaking past a white dragon with the yolk sac still attached then you're not in danger either.
It's not like you have to be a 20th level rogue to have a fairly ridiculous Stealth modifier if you're willing to go all-in on it.
Even the CR 19 Ancient Red Dragon has only +33 Perception. Getting +23 to hit that on a Take 10 on even a level 10 character isn't all that hard, and distance modifiers only make that easier and easier.
I could go into lots of stories about how different judges veiw T10 and T20 at different tables (even the same judge at different tables sometimes do them differently - every now and again the same judge at the same table will do the T10 FOR THE SAME SKILL differently. Almost makes me want to give up PFS.If you can Take 10 and succeed? Then yes, for you it's an easy task.Yes, but if you're a 20th level rogue sneaking past a white dragon with the yolk sac still attached then you're not in danger either.
Its hard to be consistent with all 400 rules in the game while juggling
NPC status
mountain dew levels
combat with 5 people he's controlling
5 people trying ridiculously circuitous methods of killing his badguys
Keeping people interested (watch the size of their dice towers)
Deciding how female he can make his voice to let you know you're talking to a woman without getting hit on in the washroom later
Juggling how much adventure he'd like to show you vs how much time you have left
Even the CR 19 Ancient Red Dragon has only +33 Perception. Getting +23 to hit that on a Take 10 on even a level 10 character isn't all that hard, and distance modifiers only make that easier and easier.
The dragon gets a d20 roll as well.(-10 for being asleep)
The line is if you're not in immediate danger, which at best falls into some weird Schrodinger's cat of you're theoretically not in danger if you make the stealth rolls but you can't make the stealth rolls if you're not in danger.
What i think breaks this is, while it would be cheap on the part of the DM to have the dragon wake up at random (at which point blind sense kicks in and the stealthing rogue is just hosed), the rogue doesn't know he's playing a game ideally consisting of tough but fair challenges to his skill. For all the rogue knows the dragon could wake up at any moment to take a leak or head out for a midnight snack or double check an accounting error on his pile of gold. That adds an element of immediate danger that i believe prevents someone from taking 10 without the rogue talent.
Can you Take 10 on a Knowledge check to identify a creature while you are hiding?
Can you Take 10 on a Swim check while not in combat? While in Combat?
Can you Take 10 on a Craft check?
Can you Take 10 on a Survival check to "get along in the wild"? To "keep from getting lost"?
Can you do the above in an earth quake? Rain storm?
I'd shorten it and live with the uncertainty. If someone sprung this on me while i was trying to set up an adventure I'd probably be tempted to declare their race delicious to the next wandering monster. (mmm i can't beleive its not elven!)
Also my response to someone asking a rule question: How do you plan on exploiting my answer.
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Yes, but if you're a 20th level rogue sneaking past a white dragon with the yolk sac still attached then you're not in danger either.It's not like you have to be a 20th level rogue to have a fairly ridiculous Stealth modifier if you're willing to go all-in on it.
Even the CR 19 Ancient Red Dragon has only +33 Perception. Getting +23 to hit that on a Take 10 on even a level 10 character isn't all that hard, and distance modifiers only make that easier and easier.
So the dragon takes 10 on perception, gets a 43. Dragon sees rogue.