Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I'm curious about your policies on stores and distributors breaking your street dates on products. I own a store, myself, and I and my distributor are respectful of what we percieve your wishes to be. However, with a release as big as the Advanced Players Guide, I am getting constant requests from people who don't understand the process by which you distribute. They see people posting on these boards (all of whom are subscribers and merely are looking at the PDF of their book), and think that they should be able to find the book somewhere.
Now, today, I had a customer come in with a copy of the book who says he bought it yesterday from another local store. That has created an exodus of my customers to that store to buy the book. I know which distributor that store uses, and will start getting your products through them if I, too, will be allowed to get hotly anticipated product such as this early.
So, what is your policy? Are you okay with stores selling your product early, so long as they get it from a distributor who, nominally, you're allowing to distribute early? Or are you like WotC, and will shut down any future instances of these kinds of occurances?
This incident has cost me a great deal of money in lost sales, both on the APG and on future product as I anticipate customers to simply check with that store first, from now on. So, I am honestly curious what to do.
Edit: He didn't buy it yesterday. He bought it last Friday (the 23rd).
Man, I hope you got a reply of some sort already.
I used to work for a bookstore (a Barnes and Noble; it was one of the college stores, but we sold trade as well as textbooks). We often got shipments of trade that would have printed on the box, "Do not put on the shelves until ____" and that's all anyone can really do.
We didn't open the boxes early because that would be wrong, but the only people we wereafraid of if we actually did that was Scholastic, for opening Harry Potter boxes pre-street date. Because they did actively threaten to sue anyone who violated that date. The thing is, the publishers of Harry Potter could afford to do that.
Unfortunately, most publishers can't.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Wizards of the Coast is able to maintain street dates on their products, and they don't use the "sue" card. They simply tell the offending distributor and store, "You won't be getting any of our products for the next six months."
That's a pretty huge incentive, one that I think Paizo is beginning to approach having the clout to enact, themselves. I have more preorders for this book than I have had for any 4E book since the PHB2 (over a year ago). Pathfinder is a very steady seller, at this point, and if a distributor is told, "You don't get any," for a while, the products will sell through other distributors and only the offenders will lose money. I am sure of this because my distributor is regularly sold out of Paizo products, and I am often waiting for a restock to get in certain things.
Now, as I said, if Paizo is "okay" with this process (I.E. <shrug> "Not much we can do about it..."), then I'm fine with simply finding that distributor and getting my Paizo stuff through them. I'll have it two weeks early, too, and will no longer lose sales to other stores.
CEO
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So, what is your policy? Are you okay with stores selling your product early, so long as they get it from a distributor who, nominally, you're allowing to distribute early? Or are you like WotC, and will shut down any future instances of these kinds of occurances?
Hi there!
We are not OK with stores breaking the street date. If you could send any info you have about the store and their distributor to pierce@paizo.com, our sales manager will look into it. We've found a couple other broken street dates and managed to shut them down before they got too out of hand. Thanks for letting us know!
-Lisa
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CEO
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Wizards of the Coast is able to maintain street dates on their products, and they don't use the "sue" card. They simply tell the offending distributor and store, "You won't be getting any of our products for the next six months."
The main reason WotC has the clout to do this is that they sell direct to many accounts, so there is no middle-man in the system. However, if we know the details about a store breaking the date and who their distributor is, we can do what we can from our end to make sure it doesn't happen again.
-Lisa
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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We are not OK with stores breaking the street date.
Thank you. This reaffirms my faith in your company and reminds me why you're one of my favorites. I will submit the details to Pierce when I confirm who the distributor is.
The main reason WotC has the clout to do this is that they sell direct to many accounts, so there is no middle-man in the system.
True. However, they are also willing to shut down the distributor. I know this because I witnessed it, once (I wasn't involved, I promise, but I saw it happen).
What this says to me, though, is that Paizo should start selling direct :-D
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Creative Director
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True. However, they are also willing to shut down the distributor. I know this because I witnessed it, once (I wasn't involved, I promise, but I saw it happen).
When was this? Becuase if it was several years ago, when there were dozens of RPG distributors, I could see this happening. Today, there's close to a monopoply when it comes to RPG distribution, and shutting down a distributor can do a lot more damage.
Anyway, as Lisa mentions above, we DO take broken street dates seriously, but until we get information about specific stores that do it we can't act on the information. So let us know if you hear about it happening and we'll do what we can to solve the situation.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Man, I only wish the Distributor here could keep to actual release dates instead of the weeks or months late that my stuff gets in. :(
Sadly I have to order most stuff through my FLGS now (at least for the forseeable future) and as an example, I still don't have the Adventurer's Armoury I ordered before it was released, nor the Plot Twist Cards. I got Issues 33 & 34 of the AP at the same time, even though they actually released at seperate times and I've easily had to wait a month or more after the street release date for maybe a third of the stuff I order (which is every Pathfinder Product plus the Gamemastery Cards). I give my FLGS a list of upcoming products for the next 3-6 months with a tentative release month and they order them as the release approaches. Their Distributor (Walrus and Carpenter here in Australia) tells them they ship the stuff as soon as it arrives, so I don't know if their (W&C) ordering is screwy or there is a big delay getting it to Australia, but I hate not having stuff on time.
Biggest example (other than the Adventurer's Armoury above) is that I fully expect to have my Dead Tree Copy of Souls for the Smuggler's Shiv (which I recently resubscribed to the APs specifically to get Serpent's Skull) waaaaay before I get Issue 35 or 36 of Kingmaker. Now I know Subscribers get it shipped a little early, but I can buy those books from the site now not as a Subscriber, so the street release has come and gone.
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Isn't it more the store that is breaking the street date than the distributor? I was under the impression that stores normally get books sent to them before the street date so that they have the stock on hand. The distributors are not really doing anything out of the ordinary by shipping the books ahead of time are they? It's up to the stores to not put out product before they are supposed to. It seems as though publishers such as Paizo should go after the stores that break the "rules" in this case, shouldn't they?
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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When was this? Becuase if it was several years ago, when there were dozens of RPG distributors, I could see this happening. Today, there's close to a monopoply when it comes to RPG distribution, and shutting down a distributor can do a lot more damage.
It was, indeed, several years ago. That distributor is no longer in business, in fact.
Also, to clarify: when I say "shut down" I'm referring to the practice of shipping early. I may be annoyed by this incident, but I don't honestly expect anyone (even Wizards) to have the clout to put another company completely out of business. The distributor I'm referring to went out of business purely due to their own lack of viability (and shipping Wizards' product early was merely a symptom of this).
Isn't it more the store that is breaking the street date than the distributor?
No. It's the distributor. My distributor (indeed, most distributors) will not ship to me until they are sure that the product will not arrive in my store until the day before the street date (at the earliest - usually I get it day of). In this case, I'm certain the distributor simply got the APG, turned it around to all their orders without paying attention to street dates, and then forgot all about it.
The stores recieving the books are just unaware, simply putting the product out for sale because, "Well, it showed up in the shipment, so it must be good to go." I am 100% positive that the store I am referring to in this thread has no idea of Paizo street dates. They barely carry any stock in Pathfinder product, and have only just started getting a PFS group going due to the efforts of a player who lives close to them doing it all on his own. I'm sure the book was requested by several of those players, the store ordered it, and when they got it, simply put it out for sale without being aware of any dates being involved.
Ultimately, while a store should be aware of street dates and such, they usually are not (unless they're really good at what they do). The distributor, on the other hand, is specifically in the business of getting things to the right place at the right time. Sending something out two weeks early should never have happened unless they had permission.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Isn't it more the store that is breaking the street date than the distributor?
Our goal is to get new releases to distributors in a timely enough fashion that they can, in turn, get those releases to retailers by the release date. Distributors might be able to get product to some of their retail accounts in a day, but other stores might take a week. Thus, the best way to ensure that the largest number of stores have stock on the release date is for us to get stuff to distributors as early as possible, and to rely on them to ship it at the appropriate time for each retailer.
So, if somebody's selling a book just a day or so before the release date, it's likely that the distributor did their part, and the store alone is to blame.
On the other hand, if somebody's selling a book several days before the release date, it means both that the store has disregarded our release date *and* that their distributor didn't hold it long enough.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I give my FLGS a list of upcoming products for the next 3-6 months with a tentative release month and they order them as the release approaches. Their Distributor (Walrus and Carpenter here in Australia) tells them they ship the stuff as soon as it arrives, so I don't know if their (W&C) ordering is screwy or there is a big delay getting it to Australia, but I hate not having stuff on time.
Walrus & Carpenter, like most international distributors, actually has a consolidator in the US, and Paizo ships to the consolidator. Consolidators usually assemble shipments from multiple publishers into one big shipment to save money, but that *also* means that some stuff will sit around while they wait for more stuff to arrive.
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On the other hand, if somebody's selling a book several days before the release date, it means both that the store has disregarded our release date *and* that their distributor didn't hold it long enough.
But... isn't it also the distributor's job to know the ordering practices of said store, and if they only order once a month, and this happens to be the week, get it to them so that they have it for the street date, even if said street date is a week away?
and before anyone says this is unreasonable, I do odd jobs for a comic store that does just that, all gaming orders/pre-orders go through alliance, but he only orders from them once a month, twice on months with magic releases, so that he can get free shipping(since they only offer it on orders $300+ and we are in a very rural area of the state). If he needs a rush on a gaming thing, he'll order it through Diamond to come in with the comic order, but this is only 2-3 items a month, and never pre-orders. Does it suck? Sure, but saving $75-150 a month in shipping makes it worth while as a business practice. Anything we get early usually has a "do not sell until XX/XX" on the invoice just before the price, IIRC.
Sorry, just saying from a very rural point of view.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Cpt Kirstov, you make good points, and they aren't something I thought of. All my preorders are large enough to get free shipping without having to wait, so I guess I'm in an enviable position in that regard.
So, yes, the store should have paid attention. I'm sure the distributor provided the information to them, in some form or another. However, two weeks early is pretty extreme. Also, we are *not* in a rural area, and the offending store bills themselves as "The biggest and best game store in the state." So, I don't think they should be having the kinds of problems you are advocating.
The store did the deed. The distributor allowed it to happen. Both are an issue, and Lisa has stated they will solve it. I don't get to go to that distributor and get stuff early, but I also don't have to worry about a competitor being able to do so, instead, and get an unfair jump on things. I'm content.
We have been looking into the issue today and are trying to track down the trail of where the product came from, which is a lot harder to figure out than you might imagine.
-Lisa
Teach you guys to make Divination an underpowered school. Hrrumph. Should have re-designed the whole school, then your 20th level diviners on staff could just... whoops! this is real life isn't it? blast- wrong forums again. ;-)
Good hunting folks! Hope this issue gets resolved.
p.s. I also blame the people that are purchasing before the release date. :/
p.s. I also blame the people that are purchasing before the release date. :/
To be fair on that point, very few of the RPGers that I know of have any clue as to release dates or other such details...they just check the sections where they find their favorite games whenever they are in a FLGS or bookstore, and if they see something new they flip through it and decide whether or not to buy it. The release date probably never crosses their mind...if it's out on the shelf, it must be fair game.
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To be fair on that point, very few of the RPGers that I know of have any clue as to release dates or other such details...they just check the sections where they find their favorite games whenever they are in a FLGS or bookstore, and if they see something new they flip through it and decide whether or not to buy it. The release date probably never crosses their mind...if it's out on the shelf, it must be fair game.
To add to this, WotC released the PHB 3 to selected game stores at least a week prior to the official release date. I'm not sure what the criteria to sell the book early was, but it's not something that casual gamers can determine.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Moro and Sieylianna are correct: very few gamers know the actual release dates of most products. They just want it. That is precisely why it is so detrimental to a store like mine to find out that another store has broken a street date. All those gamers who have no idea about release dates will simply assume that I don't get things when I should, and that the other store is faster, so they'll skip shopping with me the next time around. On top of that, there is the obvious lost sales as I wait for my product to even show up while all the customers who are looking for it find it already available at that other store.
For the record: the WotC early release criteria is this: if you are a Premiere level store who meets all their requirements for sales and event sanctioning, you can have your D&D books (only books, not minis or cards) 10 days early.
This is an effort on their part to support and drive sales to the brick and mortar stores. They have made statements that they are fully aware of how important a *place* to play is to their playing base, something Amazon and most other online retailers do nothing to provide. And it's working. Our D&D sales have seen a huge upswing since they instituted that policy.
Also for the record: even though Paizo is an online retailer, they are *not* in the "unsupportive" group. I just want to be completely clear about that. The nature of their product, and the tools they give for its sale, creates a playing environment on its own. The only thing I would love to see is direct sales. Please?
p.s. I also blame the people that are purchasing before the release date. :/
Which is quite foolish, as consumers are completely blame-free here. Consumers have every right to purchase what's in front of them on a place of business' shelves, and they are not required in any way, shape, or form to know the release date of any product.
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On the other hand, if somebody's selling a book several days before the release date, it means both that the store has disregarded our release date *and* that their distributor didn't hold it long enough.But... isn't it also the distributor's job to know the ordering practices of said store, and if they only order once a month, and this happens to be the week, get it to them so that they have it for the street date, even if said street date is a week away?
and before anyone says this is unreasonable, I do odd jobs for a comic store that does just that, all gaming orders/pre-orders go through alliance, but he only orders from them once a month, twice on months with magic releases, so that he can get free shipping(since they only offer it on orders $300+ and we are in a very rural area of the state). If he needs a rush on a gaming thing, he'll order it through Diamond to come in with the comic order, but this is only 2-3 items a month, and never pre-orders. Does it suck? Sure, but saving $75-150 a month in shipping makes it worth while as a business practice. Anything we get early usually has a "do not sell until XX/XX" on the invoice just before the price, IIRC.
Sorry, just saying from a very rural point of view.
Your not in Alaska are you?
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I must say this thread is interesting if only for educational value to see some of the inner workings of the industry. :)
I do wonder if this was a one time accident perhaps, or an ongoing problem.
Seriously I can see a new hire in the store just putting something on the shelf with no idea what he's doing. BUT if the store continued to stock the product after the initial error, that is bad. Also bad would be if this is a trend, a habit with other products as well.
But I find it interesting to peer into the hidden inner workings of the industry :)
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okay so I have a question...
WHY release products early?
I can see the short term benefits of gaining quick sales over your competition. But the gaming community is fairly tight knit, and a LOT gamers (apparently most of us here included) see breaking the "rules" in a very poor light. I know most of the gamers in my community would not support a store that engaged in such practices.
Am I wrong in supposing the gaming community would look down on the practice?
Am I wrong in supposing the gaming community would look down on the practice?
Yes.
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Yes.
Am I wrong in supposing the gaming community would look down on the practice?
People want to get things before their friends and be the first to post about things on the forums, stuff like that.
As an example, AMIB is throwing up threads about things he doesn't like about the APG left right and centre. He doesn't have a subscription so he has either got a copy that was released early or (more likely) borrowed/shared a friends' copy.
Those threads probably won't get the same attention in three days time when loads of people are posting about the APG. And if any of them do he can claim the kudos of being the first to spot that thing!
*sigh* that is a shame... :(Yes.
Am I wrong in supposing the gaming community would look down on the practice?
+1. I know my group wouldn't support a store that broke street dates like this. I mean, we generally support Paizo direct through online ordering anyway- but still. I agree with you- it is a shame.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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+1. I know my group wouldn't support a store that broke street dates like this. I mean, we generally support Paizo direct through online ordering anyway- but still. I agree with you- it is a shame.*sigh* that is a shame... :(Yes.
Am I wrong in supposing the gaming community would look down on the practice?
I know my FLGS is very loyal about street dates. And very up to date on industry gossip. Hells, I can't even surprise them about Paizo product anymore.
To be honest if a store broke a streetdate while others did not and if I could report them I would do so. They hurt the honest places that respect streetdates.
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To be honest if a store broke a streetdate while others did not and if I could report them I would do so. They hurt the honest places that respect streetdates.
yeah that is what I feel too! Honestly they hurt a LOT more than just the honest vendors, they hurt the whole industry in some way shape or form.
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*sigh* that is a shame... :(Yes.
Am I wrong in supposing the gaming community would look down on the practice?Personally I think you're wrong in supposing that the average member of the gaming community is actually aware enough of street dates to know when they've been broken. It's tough to take a stand against something when you don't even know there's been a problem.
Then there's the issue that even if street dates have been broken and the gaming community in an area is aware of it and cares about it, it's still difficult to work out where the problem occurred. Maybe the game store owner ignored a notice and put the stock out regardless. Maybe the distributor sent through the wrong information with the stock. Maybe the product manufacturer made a typo when advising of the street date.
It's a difficult thing to expect the gaming community to take much of a lead role in policing...
Yeah I suppose you are right...
See I was more thinking of terms along the lines that if I saw product being released early, either as a consumer or as a vendor, I would attempt to educate others about the situation. If the situation became a habitual problem and not an obvious one time event, I would expect the now educated consumers to express an opinion on the situation.
BUT... I am now thinking of some of my friends... give them Cheetos, Mtn Dew, and something Shiny they are happy no matter what.
Mmmmm time for a Mtn Dew! :)
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Somewhat tangential - how does one go about learning the street date for a particular product?
I know when I look at a product on Paizo.com that says it's "expected July 2010", I won't be able to buy it from my FLGS until at least end of August 2010. And as a previous poster mentioned, these boards just confuse the issue, with subscribers getting first orders and pdfs, etc.
I love Paizo, but I also really really want to support my local retailer. As it is, I don't have a good way to know when to reasonably expect a product to be available.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Somewhat tangential - how does one go about learning the street date for a particular product?
I know when I look at a product on Paizo.com that says it's "expected July 2010", I won't be able to buy it from my FLGS until at least end of August 2010. And as a previous poster mentioned, these boards just confuse the issue, with subscribers getting first orders and pdfs, etc.
I love Paizo, but I also really really want to support my local retailer. As it is, I don't have a good way to know when to reasonably expect a product to be available.
Due to the vagaries of shipping and customs, we don't actually finalize release dates until the product is in our warehouse. Once we're ready to ship, we'll set the release date for a Wednesday (usually two to three weeks away), and we'll notify our distributors, who would then notify their retailers.
As some of you know, we release the PDF for general sale on the release date, so if you're looking at one of our products and see a note about the PDF being available on a particular date, that's the retail release date.