OK, ogre mage types were never my thing, going back to 1st ed...but these things look COOL. I can hardly wait to see the treatment you guys gave them, and may have to throw some in my game now.
Mmmm Oni! Woot!
Jade Regent is going to rock so hard! I almost regret volunteering to GM is. But also not at all. Muahahahaa! :D
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First off I love Oni as an idea a place to go in pathfinder. The implications of some sort of outsider crossing over, possessing and merging with a native and the various powers that could develop from this is something that really excites my imagination.
I also know this is only the first salvo -- a teaser and starting place for where the Oni are going and what might be presented in the future, as such it has to be seen with a slightly less than critical eye and given space to grow into something more.
However I am a bit... disappointed with the seemingly generic choice of elemental Oni as the opening bid after the Ogre Mage.
When I first saw the pathfinder Ogre Mage and the suggestion that Oni could come from more sources as well as the powers and abilities the Ogre Mage had I was immediately struck with how much more fluff and crunch Paizo had managed to stuff into such a small entry. I envisioned goblin based Oni, perhaps with some fire based powers (due to the goblinoid love of fire) Metal encased Hobgoblin warriors, cancerous troll Oni whose regeneration was sent into such overdrive by the Oni transformation that they would almost explode and erupt with the sheer growth happening constantly inside of them, as well as perhaps elven Oni where speed and grace had been honed to an almost razor edge.
I worry that perhaps Paizo has missed much of this inspiration in sticking to perhaps more traditional elemental Oni (which look like they could all be orge based as well). It looks -- I hate to use the word -- cliche, as if in the rush to do something the old stand by was used and now we have Elemental Orge Mages to fight against the elemental drakes, elmentals, elemental genie, and power range (wait never mind those are pathfinder).
I am looking forward to getting my hands on the Jade Regent adventure path. More so now than I was before I knew it was going to be chalk full of Oni.
I hope for a much more impressive display in the future for the Oni -- especially when their first appearance in the form of the Ogre Mage was so powerfully inspiring to me.
I envisioned goblin based Oni, perhaps with some fire based powers (due to the goblinoid love of fire) Metal encased Hobgoblin warriors, etc, etc...
Yeah, that's actually what you'll be getting here. In this case, what creatures with a type and subtype similar to ogres have a relation to elements and near elements and might make good oni fodder (again, in the same way ogres do)? But, of course, the place for specifics on all that and a big list of what races make good oni bait will be in Pathfinder #49.
Also, so everyone has their expectations on track, while #49 gives you the "Ecology of the Oni," it and every following Jade Regent Bestiary present stats for a single type of oni. Those presented above are fully stated out, along with several more of their kind, in Bestiary 3.
James, I've got a ¥2000 yen spot with your name on it if you can get me the phone numbers of the two Oni ladies.
MEOW
James, I've got a ¥2000 yen spot with your name on it if you can get me the phone numbers of the two Oni ladies.
MEOW
That's $25. Personally, I'd avoid the potential danger of being paid that little for matchmaking these ladies, but perhaps the thrill is in the chase...
YYEESS!! I am converting the Retaking of Geoff from Greyhawk and was planning on adding some ONI into the mix somehow, now I will get some more and the updated stats for them! Now if their are 7 of them, kind of the Evil 7 Swords!! MUAHAAA!!!
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A bit more info:
Oni are evil spirits who take on humanoid form. Each oni is associated with a specific type of humanoid. Ogre magi are associated with ogres, but there are certainly, for example, tengu oni, hobgoblin oni, kitsune oni, human oni, etc.
The "Yai" oni, of which we present four here, are a sub-group of oni based on true giants.
The translation:
Fire yai go with fire giants.
Ice yai go with frost giants.
Water yai go with storm giants.
Wind yai go with cloud giants.
Not pictured are the void yai, who go with rune giants.
In all, we'll have about a dozen oni with stats by the end of the year. Keen-eyed gamers will, of course, note that there are a LOT more than a dozen humanoid races. This means that not every humanoid race has an oni equivalent, but more likely it means that we've left ourself a big area to expand into should the desire for more oni become apparent.
As for why we chose to illustrate these four yai for this article, that's an easy answer. These four are closely related since they're all of the same sub-group of oni, and as a result we wanted the same artist to illustrate them so they'd look similar.
Not pictured are the void yai, who go with rune giants.
What does this imply for Golarion-specific rune giants?
Oni four?
Sorry, couldn't help the bad pun.
That's $25. Personally, I'd avoid the potential danger of being paid that little for matchmaking these ladies, but perhaps the thrill is in the chase...James, I've got a ¥2000 yen spot with your name on it if you can get me the phone numbers of the two Oni ladies.
MEOW
Wow, and I thought the guys who had the hots for Nightmare Moon were strange.
But hey, it really is great art and I'm looking forward to the article on oni.
It's interesting that they all have three eyes.
Goblin, Tengu, and kitsune type oni sound interesting.
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Not pictured are the void yai, who go with rune giants.What does this imply for Golarion-specific rune giants?
** spoiler omitted **
Rune giants were indeed created in Thassilon... WELL over 10,000 years ago. By the time Thassilon fell, rune giants already had plenty of opportunities to extend into Tian Xia... and since then, they've had even more time to extend into Tian Xia. All of this happened before much in the way of humanoid empires were underway in Tian Xia, I'm pretty sure. I haven't nailed down exactly how far back civilization goes in Tian Xia, but we've already established in canon that Azlant was the FIRST human civilization on Golarion. And Thassilon was contemporary with the last part of Azlant at least, which means that Thassilon (and thus rune giants) predates a lot of human civilization on all of Golarion's continents.
It's worth noticing, for example, how much rune giant armor looks like samurai armor...
It's interesting that they all have three eyes.
Goblin, Tengu, and kitsune type oni sound interesting.
Heh. I get the feeling we have that because of the Buddhist history of Asia...
Three eyes are generally denote yogic mastery in India (i.e., Shiva). But the Buddhists borrow it, particularly in Tantric iconography, to mean enlightenment.
The Wrathful Deities (who include Asuras, some Oni types, Yakshas, Dakinis, etc.) were developed in Tibet and China as a type of protector spirit converted from evil to good (i.e., made followers of the Buddha). There's strong influence again from Shiva in Hinduism, who, with his Shakti (one of her manifestations is Kali) are the rulers of evil spirits converted to Tantric ritual and embodying divine destruction and entropy.
In Japan, this is the route most of the Indian folkloric demons took to get to the archipelago. So most images of Asuras, Yakshas, etc. are ones of the "good" ones who serve the Dharma. They, thus, have three eyes. This goes on to influence the depiction of the more indigenous monsters, the Oni, who are linked to the Yakshas (who also appear as the Yasha, i.e., Inu-Yasha is a Yaksha). Hence the bad guys here have three eyes because the imagery became iconic for a certain type of monster, and shed the religious context...
None of this is true in Golarion, I suspect, given Lamashtu's three eyes, unless you want to be truly grim and posit that the "enlightened" evil monsters serve a type of Dharma which is utterly uncaring of human lives...
Hobgoblin and tengu oni sound cool.
I'm not sure about kitsune oni. I tend to think of kitsune as kind of fey/outsider creatures themselves, so it seems odd to think of a kitsune as an oni. I suppose it could be a corrupted kitsune, but my imagining of a kitsune puts it in the same family of creatures as oni to begin with.
But then I've never quite understood the line between the fey and outsider types. I kind of wrap my head around fey as a kind of outsider-like Type, usually with a heavy Nature theme. They're from Faerie or The First World, generally, depending on setting, and that sounds like another plane to me. Never quite got why fey isn't an outsider subtype, I guess.
Hobgoblin and tengu oni sound cool.
I'm not sure about kitsune oni. I tend to think of kitsune as kind of fey/outsider creatures themselves, so it seems odd to think of a kitsune as an oni. I suppose it could be a corrupted kitsune, but my imagining of a kitsune puts it in the same family of creatures as oni to begin with.
But then I've never quite understood the line between the fey and outsider types. I kind of wrap my head around fey as a kind of outsider-like Type, usually with a heavy Nature theme. They're from Faerie or The First World, generally, depending on setting, and that sounds like another plane to me. Never quite got why fey isn't an outsider subtype, I guess.
Kitsune (Chinese = Hu Yao, amongst other names) are a type of Yao in Chinese -- which means "spirit" (how useful, I know--) but that often denotes an animal that has gained sentience and magic power through age or exposure to potent yin. So they aren't fey-- more like Magical Beasts. The word Yao becomes Yo in Japanese, as in Yokai (monster) (the second element, is related to the Chinese Gui, or Kuei, 'demon'- also found in the expression Japanese Gaijin, foreign devil).
The Medieval Christian concept of the Fey, the half-fallen ones, firmly places them in the material world, living alongside humans. They are halfway between the Angels and the Devils... The Otherworld seems to overlap with the middle-world in Pagan materials as well. They are thus not Outsiders because they are originally of and dwelling within the world. Of course, the First World of Golarion is a little different, but it's still a rough draft of the material plane.
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Ah my fears relieved! Also Fey have a much longer history than Christianity does however I'll leave that to its own thread.
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I'm not sure about kitsune oni. I tend to think of kitsune as kind of fey/outsider creatures themselves, so it seems odd to think of a kitsune as an oni. I suppose it could be a corrupted kitsune, but my imagining of a kitsune puts it in the same family of creatures as oni to begin with.
But then I've never quite understood the line between the fey and outsider types. I kind of wrap my head around fey as a kind of outsider-like Type, usually with a heavy Nature theme. They're from Faerie or The First World, generally, depending on setting, and that sounds like another plane to me. Never quite got why fey isn't an outsider subtype, I guess.
Fair enough...
But in Pathfinder, kitsune are humanoids. So having oni kitsune makes sense.
Fair enough...
But in Pathfinder, kitsune are humanoids. So having oni kitsune makes sense.
Oh. I don't have that book yet. :-)
Still, just seems weird, is all. I'd probably think it seemed weird for tengu too if I had some concept of tengu beyond what Pathfinder tells me.
Man, I was hoping to eventually end my AP subscription some day, but I guess I'm in it for at least Jade Regent... and then you'll start talking about cool Skull and Shackles stuff to keep me coming back then too, I'm sure.
Edit: Yes, I know, saying I'll ever quit is self-delusion. I know, I know. If I have money, I'll probably be sending it to the state of Washington.
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Fair enough...
But in Pathfinder, kitsune are humanoids. So having oni kitsune makes sense.
Oh. I don't have that book yet. :-)
Still, just seems weird, is all. I'd probably think it seemed weird for tengu too if I had some concept of tengu beyond what Pathfinder tells me.
Man, I was hoping to eventually end my AP subscription some day, but I guess I'm in it for at least Jade Regent... and then you'll start talking about cool Skull and Shackles stuff to keep me coming back then too, I'm sure.
Edit: Yes, I know, saying I'll ever quit is self-delusion. I know, I know. If I have money, I'll probably be sending it to the state of Washington.
No one has that book yet. It won't be for sale until November. :-)
We wanted kitsune (and tengu, for that matter) to be playable PC races.
In fact, if you're looking for the more spiritual and/or trickster type versions of tengu and kitsune, the oni versions statted up in Pathfinder #49 and #50 are exactly what you'll be looking for.
(snip)
No one has that book yet. It won't be for sale until November. :-)
We wanted kitsune (and tengu, for that matter) to be playable PC races.
In fact, if you're looking for the more spiritual and/or trickster type versions of tengu and kitsune, the oni versions statted up in Pathfinder #49 and #50 are exactly what you'll be looking for.
Clever.
So are Oni going to be "evil only" -- or are we going to see good/neutral/other Oni or their (rough) equivalent at some point?
I can live with that -- thanks. Are we likely to see a (few/some/many) kami in the Jade Regent books?
I like the art. Looks sharp.
Having oni similiar to their Material Plane humanoid counterparts kinda lacks in the imagination department heavily...
I was hoping for oni more along the lines of what was seen in the Rokugan oni, like the pics of the oni seen in WotC's Oriental Adventures and AEG's d20 Creatures of Rokugan books. Basically oriental demons, varying in appearance, power, and abilities.
Oh. I don't have that book yet. :-)No one has that book yet. It won't be for sale until November. :-)
I knew the books (Bestiary 3 and Jade Regent) weren't out yet. On that point I was just trying to be clever. At any rate, I always love a new bestiary, and the bestiaries are always the first thing I look at in the AP volumes too. (And the new creature entry in the back of each module, for that matter.)
Thanks, and make mine Marvel... erm... Paizo!
Having oni similiar to their Material Plane humanoid counterparts kinda lacks in the imagination department heavily...
I was hoping for oni more along the lines of what was seen in the Rokugan oni, like the pics of the oni seen in WotC's Oriental Adventures and AEG's d20 Creatures of Rokugan books. Basically oriental demons, varying in appearance, power, and abilities.
I'm happy enough that Paizo is going their own way. I wish folks would stop asking them to do stuff other people have already done that they can't do because they are intellectual property.
With every wow! post we get folks saying "I wish you'd done this differently." I'm happy we are getting what we are getting and maybe if we start telling Paizo how great it is they will be encouraged to do more.
Having oni similiar to their Material Plane humanoid counterparts kinda lacks in the imagination department heavily...
I was hoping for oni more along the lines of what was seen in the Rokugan oni, like the pics of the oni seen in WotC's Oriental Adventures and AEG's d20 Creatures of Rokugan books. Basically oriental demons, varying in appearance, power, and abilities.
They kind of detailed how oni would work in the first Bestiary when they said the disembodied outsiders merge with material plane creatures (paraphrased from memory, so don't quote me on that). The ogre mage is still the template for other oni in the game, and using the oni description as a guide, it makes sense that they'd be like dark reflections of the races they're inhabiting. It seems to me the decision of how oni would go was more-or-less made back when the first Bestiary came out, they just haven't actually produced any more of them until now.
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Having oni similiar to their Material Plane humanoid counterparts kinda lacks in the imagination department heavily...
I was hoping for oni more along the lines of what was seen in the Rokugan oni, like the pics of the oni seen in WotC's Oriental Adventures and AEG's d20 Creatures of Rokugan books. Basically oriental demons, varying in appearance, power, and abilities.
That's a route that WotC took, and as a result, not one we wanted to take.
In any event... wait and see exactly what we do with the oni before you write them off! ;-)
Having oni similiar to their Material Plane humanoid counterparts kinda lacks in the imagination department heavily...
I was hoping for oni more along the lines of what was seen in the Rokugan oni, like the pics of the oni seen in WotC's Oriental Adventures and AEG's d20 Creatures of Rokugan books. Basically oriental demons, varying in appearance, power, and abilities.
I'm happy enough that Paizo is going their own way. I wish folks would stop asking them to do stuff other people have already done that they can't do because they are intellectual property.
With every wow! post we get folks saying "I wish you'd done this differently." I'm happy we are getting what we are getting and maybe if we start telling Paizo how great it is they will be encouraged to do more.
Well it's just not how I envisioned oni to be. I watch a lot of japanese anime, and when I think of oni, I don't think of "The evil version of a human, a goblin, a halfling, an ogre" etc. I think of dark demons of the netherworld with an oriental theme to it. (sometimes with a lot of tentacles and snakes)
But let's hope James is correct in saying they're unique enough yet still have that oni oriental feel.
Consider that most of the 'anime' Demons borrow heavily from existing creatures for their forms. It's not beyond the capability of a possessing spirit to twist the form to something more powerful, but still resembling the original form.
Oni Tengu? Giant cyclopean bird/man with razor-sharp feathers and a cruelly hooked beak. Alternatively a man-sized Tengu with expansive wings, glowing eyes and a three-part beak.
Human Oni? Smaller version of the Ogre Mage, but with a more intelligent feel to it and/or greater supernatural/spell like abilities. Remember Ogre Mages are the result of an Evil Spirit possessing an Ogre. The same Evil Spirit/Oni possessing a Human has a lot more to work with, though the host body is more fragile it is also more balanced in ability scores and is also more likely to be able to slip into societies with greater ease than their larger cousins.
An animal-based Oni would certainly be menacing, imagine a giant sentient evil Serpent of supernatural origins, or a Demon Horse that makes Nightmares flee in terror.
With just the Pathfinder version of the ogre magi to go by I'd say that oni = a world of grief for Player Characters. The Pathfinder ogre mage is badass.
That tentacles and snakes thing that Razz mentions makes me think about an Oni medusa. That would be hideous. I'd love to spring something like that on my victi...players.
A bit more info:
Oni are evil spirits who take on humanoid form. Each oni is associated with a specific type of humanoid. Ogre magi are associated with ogres, but there are certainly, for example, tengu oni, hobgoblin oni, kitsune oni, human oni, etc.
Wait, so this does this mean that Kitsune and Tengu ARE oni? Or that there are just Oni that sort of personify these yokai due to their shapeshifting nature from folklore?
Edit: Nevermind this post. I am an idiot and didn't read it properly.
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Wait, so this does this mean that Kitsune and Tengu ARE oni? Or that there are just Oni that sort of personify these yokai due to their shapeshifting nature from folklore?A bit more info:
Oni are evil spirits who take on humanoid form. Each oni is associated with a specific type of humanoid. Ogre magi are associated with ogres, but there are certainly, for example, tengu oni, hobgoblin oni, kitsune oni, human oni, etc.
Nope. It means that the kitsune and tengu are humanoids. The oni versions (who have names we have not yet revealed) are native outsiders.
And the word "yokai" in Golarion isn't something we'll be using... we treat that word as more or less being synonymous with "monster."
Ai Yai Yai!!!
These look awesome. I really love what was done with the Ogre Mage in the bestiary, and am looking forward to more Oni and other bits of the Orient in Tian-Xia.
And I'm really hoping those Tengu Oni show up.
Re: 3E/Rokugan oni: I've converted several from Oriental Adventures by adding PF oni traits (both the traditional D&D ogrelike oni and the more freakish Shadowlands oni) without much trouble.
Admittedly they don't fit well into Golarion's cosmology. Few of them match up with any humanoid races and had to be shoehorned (a worm-centaur with tentacle hair is hard to peg), and even ones that do contradict the idea that each oni race matches up with a single humanoid race (can ogre magi, common oni, and wang-liang all derive from ogres?), but if all you care about is the statblocks it's not a huge issue.
(Incidentally, I converted human-headed tengu as oni, but with the revelation of the kami in this thread I may have to reconsider.)
Also, if you want really freaky oni, you can always just use demons, qlippoth, or other fiends as yokai. To the average peasant in Minkai, the difference between a hezrou and a "true" oni is academic.
Well it's just not how I envisioned oni to be. I watch a lot of japanese anime, and when I think of oni, I don't think of "The evil version of a human, a goblin, a halfling, an ogre" etc. I think of dark demons of the netherworld with an oriental theme to it. (sometimes with a lot of tentacles and snakes)
Oni Aboleth? :)
I don't really like what I'm hearing in this thread regarding the various supernatural creatures of Japanese mythology. It just strikes me as completely at odds with what I know. So basically the only version of Tengu and Kitsunes that have supernatural powers like they're supposed to, are always evil? Oni are all based on mortal creatures? What?
I was once looking forward to Paizo's treatment of "Oriental Adventures". Now? Not so much. Maybe all the rest will be cool, and this will be just a couple of sticking points I don't like, though. We'll see.
I don't really like what I'm hearing in this thread regarding the various supernatural creatures of Japanese mythology. It just strikes me as completely at odds with what I know. So basically the only version of Tengu and Kitsunes that have supernatural powers like they're supposed to, are always evil? Oni are all based on mortal creatures? What?
No -- Kami formed from Tengu and Kitsune have supernatural powers and are good.
Also any tengu or kitsune could have supernatural powers from it class abilities.
Oni are based on mortals combined with outsiders -- once the two merge (as opposed to possession) then you form a completely knew creature -- kind of like when Major Kusanagi merged with the AI named "Puppet Master".
That doesn't help any.
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Kami do not have any links to humanoids; there's no such thing as a kami tengu or a kami human. Kami are usually neutral; some are good, very VERY rarely are they evil. They're supernatural spirits associated with inanimate objects, locations, plants, and animals. You could have a river kami, a mountain kami, a crossroads kami, a redwood tree kami, a frog kami, a tiger kami, etc.
There are tengu in the game—they're in the first bestiary in fact, so anyone can check them out if they wish. They can be any alignment and are humanoids with no real inborn supernatural powers.
Kitsune are going to be in the game as well; they're not published yet though. They can be any alignment and are humanoids with supernatural powers.
Oni are evil spirits. They disguise themselves as humanoids. Look at the ogre mage in the Bestiary 1 for an example; that's an oni that specifically disguises itself as an ogre. We'll have oni that have similar links to MANY humanoid races, from human to giant to tengu to kitsune to many more. All oni are evil.
Beyond the oni, we're also going to be statting up a lot of other supernatural creatures drawn from Asian mythology–not just Japanese mythology. So stay tuned over the next 8 months or so and you'll have a LOT more details on it all.
ALL of these elements, while inspired by Asian mythology, are also NOT meant to be exact interpretations of that mythology. Golarion is a different place than Earth. Just as the kobolds and elves and dragons and basilisks and all that from Earth's mythology have different features and traits than the ones we stat up for Pathfinder, so with stuff we'll be adapting from any culture.