Realized that when Courtland started handing out the silver brooches, I missed the chance to throw in "Badges? BADGES? WE DON' NEED NO STINKIN' BADGES!"
Hey gang,
I feel like I need to say something because the tone of the some of the recent posts are getting a bit carried away. I'm a little taken aback by the resistance to what are honestly pretty vanilla terms of agreement, in what was meant as nothing more than a jumping off point for what is supposed to be an open-ended sandbox with the Keep at its hub.
Its starting to feel less like you're breaking Cortland's balls, and more like you're breaking my balls, like you're dissatisfied with the game I'm trying to open up. It has grown beyond good-natured ribbing or some discontent for RP's sake; it feels like hostility. I don't for a moment think it wasn't meant this way, but it is what I'm sensing.
Am I off base here? I hate to get all meta but from an RP perspective I feel like I'm running out of options to keep the game moving forward.
Hey sorry about that. I know some of that is my PC's fault.
Like I tried to say, it was not meant to derail anything, much less being confrontational with the GM of all people. :)
I've been (and continue being) on the other side of the screen too many times to be anything but a a cooperative player so sorry for whatever it's worth.
I don't for a moment think it wasn't meant this way
Oops, double negative. I meant to say I don't think it was meant that way.
I don't want you to think I am critical of the game. I am trying to act in character.
Throwing some politics into it can make it more interesting. Courtland is clearly an officious bureaucrat-type and may or may not reflect what life is actually like at the keep. But the way he talks is the kind of thing that makes you think that you better look at the fine print, and may the buyer beware. Which is kind of how I would play a LE cleric of Asmodeus in a game set in Golarion. I'm not sure if that is your intent but I had assumed that was deliberate.
For the record, if I was playing a Lawful Good Paladin or something my character likely would have said "Thank you sir, it's a honor!" and marched on. But here I am playing a pugilistic Chaotic character who was exiled from his home for fighting with his family and resents any impingement on his freedom, and who has been betrayed by members of the noble class before. And he's a dwarf and refuses to give up a copper piece more than he has to.
Dunganagar is also a little miffed that instead of the gratitude he expected to be given because he volunteered for this cause (which was certainly shown by Sowell), Courtland instead seems to think that Dunganagar should be grateful to him and Baroness Hellbane for being 'allowed' to help them.
You'll note though that I reined it in by finishing up with this:
"If your 'paymaster' wants to pay me gold for choppin' off the heads of goblins, I'll take his money. But if this Baroness thinks she is entitled to what I earn, well, then we will have an interestin' conversation."
Which more or less indicates that he is willing to go along with the plan as long as there is money flowing his way, but if they try to start charging him money then things will change. It's possible that by that time Dunganagar will see Baroness Hellbane as more than just a "useless noble."
For the record Dunganagar wouldn't mind the idea of holding some kind of land or estate, but doesn't care a whit about whether he has a title or not, and would not be willing to pledge fealty to Baroness Hellbane unless she really impressed him somehow.
From a Meta standpoint though it is a little weird that we are expected to seek permission to go adventuring, especially in a land that is as wild as the Borderlands, where nobody could stop us from going even if they wanted to. But in a strictly sandbox game there's nothing wrong with the idea of players moving in and taking over when they reach a certain level where they can handle that. FYI The character I am playing is not really intended for the kind of game where you are in someone's employ and are being assigned "missions," though he would work as a mercenary on a strictly cash basis.
Let me say a few things before I head back over to the gameplay thread.
A few things about in-game:
It is within the normal purview of any ruler to annex land adjacent to their own. In this circumstance the borderlands were governed by Hellbane's predecessor, but were lost during the war. The keep already stood there and was waiting to be retaken by those who built it, so it is not an unusual, evil, or malicious act for the current ruler to claim (reclaim) these lands. If that land is now claimed (the keep is under their control once again) it is also acceptable to place a semblance of rule of law upon the area, which could include limiting the capacity of would-be adventurers going rogue, acting outside the bounds and permission of the land's ruler.
The Baroness has not conscripted poor young lads to fight her battles and die for her glory. She has instead opted for a free-enterprise solution to attract volunteers with promised rewards for payment, which is as far from evil as I can fathom. I'm not seeing anything objectionable or remotely 'lawful evil' here.
You're only seeking permission to adventure there in the loosest sense. With hardly an interview they're willing to make you official officers with priority for land and title, and promised available bounties to jumpstart the taming of the borderlands. Elsewhere you could indeed adventure without any consent but you wouldn't have the benefit of a keep to shelter and resupply in, guaranteed bounties, promises of greater glory later -- all for what investment on your part? Literally nothing but effort, and maybe a small future levy upon spoils brought to the keep? It costs money to process spoils (items other than liquid cash have to be carted out and resold which requires man power, time, and protection, all of which cost money.) There are some legitimate and fair reasons why the keep might need to begin a small tax, and they don't include the Baroness thinking "she is entitled to what I[you] earn."
Dunganagar is making a pretty big show of his disdain for nobles and politics, when said nobles' only burden placed upon Dunganagar thus far would be possible taxes, in the future. (Side note - levies and taxes upon loot have been a part of many games I've played in over the years, so I guess I'm a bit surprised at the volume of pushback over the abstract notion of a possible future tax.) This seems like a profoundly small burden to be placed on someone in exchange for promises of treasure (both taken from enemies and paid for bounties/deeds of good) and more to the point - a chance to earn land and title. You've stated you don't care about the title, but title is valuable nonetheless whether Dunganagar chooses to value it. I'm just not seeing what Dungangar is seeing and I don't understand the level of his pushback.
A few things about out-of-game:
Roleplaying your character's personality is the bread and butter of this hobby and it is to be encouraged, but at some point the character's personality can't be a counter to the game's flow and everyone else's fun. I don't believe you meant for this to happen but Dunganagar's attitude has not only dragged the game to a near halt but I ask you to consider what kind of position it puts me in as the GM. After being spoken to that way, should Cortland still be okay with allowing Dunganagar to be a part of this excursion? As the GM I also have to RP my NPCs, or they become inconsequential and unbelievable. If I as the GM allow you walk all over the Baroness' personal representative, boldly insulting her and her cause without consequence, then I'm not RPing or doing a very good job. This is the position I feel I've been placed in as a result of Dunganagar's harsh RP pushback.
I guess what I'm trying to say is if you want him to be that "rage against the machine" rebel, that's totally cool with me, but all RP needs to be mitigated by what will allow the game to continue forward intact.
I've said my piece.
I have no hard feelings as I don't believe for a moment that Peet meant any ill will. He was just RPing his character; I was just a little shaken up by the banter and the implications.
Let's forget about this and move forward with a good time.
OK, let's clear the air here.
I think there are some things that do require a response, but I'm spoilering this to avoid cluttering the thread.
It is within the normal purview of any ruler to annex land adjacent to their own...
Of course, of course. But the point is that Courtland is talking as if the annexation of this territory is already complete, even though it is adventurers like us who are going to do the "annexing." And we are not being paid by the Baroness at all for the land that we are "annexing." In Dunganagar's mind the land belongs to the one that conquered it, and "claim" be damned.
The Baroness has not conscripted poor young lads to fight her battles and die for her glory.
What about the soldiers she retook the keep with? I had assumed that those were from the normal feudal levy (though they could be mercenaries), but now she doesn't have enough troops to do this the normal way and has now called for volunteers.
You're only seeking permission to adventure there in the loosest sense.
Courtland said in no uncertain terms that if we started killing goblins in the borderlands without the baroness' permission we would be treated as criminals. That sounds pretty strict. Courtland is threatening Dunganagar with the law (and likely death) if he doesn't toe the line here.
So if you meant to convey 'in the loosest sense' that totally didn't work.
From Dunganagar's standpoint, if he was doing that he would still be 'helping the cause,' so for them to care more about his getting permission than what he is actually doing makes it seem like they care more about law and control than they do about good. This is a big part of why he seems lawful neutral or maybe even lawful evil to Dunganagar (and to me, also).
Elsewhere you could indeed adventure without any consent but you wouldn't have the benefit of a keep to shelter and resupply in,
This is the one and only reason Dunganagar can see that it is worth "playing along."
guaranteed bounties,
A big part of the contention here is that from Courtland's behavior we now believe that the bounties are not guaranteed at all. He has indicated that they are subject to change without notice and he doesn't even know what the current bounties are. How could he not know? That is EXTREMELY fishy. He prevaricates on the subject and this makes him seem like a weasel. If you try to avoid talking about how much a job pays, it is usually because you think that the offer is not good enough and will be rejected if you bring it up.
How hard would it have been for someone to mention to him how much the bounties were before he came here? A bounty hunter never goes to work without knowing how much the job pays.
With hardly an interview they're willing to make you official officers...
Here's part of the problem. Dunganagar doesn't want to be an "official officer" of anything and doesn't see why he would have to be one in order to kill goblins. Being a bounty hunter is one thing... being a sheriff is another altogether, and not a job Dunganagar is interested in.
...when said nobles' only burden placed upon Dunganagar thus far would be possible taxes,
Oh, no, it's a lot more than that. What about this?:
...granting you the rights and duties of officers of her law while within the borderlands region. Outside the keep's walls, you are the law, with the exception of officers operating from within the keep."
"Let it be known that this writ's validity is temporary and may be withdrawn if your behavior is judged to be ill-suited to this endeavor."
(emphasis mine)
Courtland has explicitly said that we won't just be free adventurers - we will be police. And we must adhere to a code of behavior determined by the Baroness.
This may work for lawful characters, but it had Dunganagar worried from the start since he knows that he doesn't "play well" in organized society. This makes it sound like he has to act like a paladin and he knows that this won't work out. Frankly this is not the job people should want Dunganagar to have anyway.
It is also a big departure from the concept behind the "Keep on the Borderlands" where nobody really cared what you did outside the keep, as long as you were fighting the enemy.
(Side note - levies and taxes upon loot have been a part of many games I've played in over the years, so I guess I'm a bit surprised at the volume of pushback over the abstract notion of a possible future tax.)
Did you know that King Richard the Lionheart was killed in an argument over rights to found treasure? :)
It's fully in-character for a dwarf to resist the idea of taxes.
It was kind of stupid for Courtland to even bring it up, actually. It would have been much more sensible to just wait and bring it up later. Actually, if after adventuring for a while the Baroness approached the adventurers and said "I need money for X, can you help?" (assuming the Baroness is the kind of person it sounds like you mean her to be), Dunganagar would probably just give money to her, as long as it was actually a gift and not an obligation.
"Income Tax" however is a very modern invention and when it was first imposed there was a great outcry. They were only permitted (at least in the UK, US, and Canada) because of the necessity to raise funds during war. So the idea that Dunganagar would have to pay money just because he has some would certainly seem offensive. Not just to him - to most people.
From a Meta perspective:
In 1e and AD&D (when Keep on the Borderlands was written), there wasn't a lot you could spend your money on once you got it. You couldn't buy magic items (unless you commissioned items which could take months or years). So you were mostly hoarding it until you had the chance to build a castle with it. So taxes just meant a smaller castle.
For 3.5/Pathfinder though, the core assumption is that adventurers will be funneling their money into magic items, because they need to. I am sure that as a GM you will be making sure a reasonable amount of treasure is found.
But Dunganagar doesn't know that. What he does know is that magic weapons are fantasically expensive, yet all the truly great heroes of yore had them. So he begrudges any delay in that process.
...but I ask you to consider what kind of position it puts me in as the GM. After being spoken to that way, should Cortland still be okay with allowing Dunganagar to be a part of this excursion? As the GM I also have to RP my NPCs, or they become inconsequential and unbelievable.
I wasn't trying to derail the game, but let's look at what happened.
- When Dunganagar asked Courtland to actually commit to something concrete in the "contract" (and Courtland used that term first), Courtland got evasive.
- And then when Dunganagar asked Courtland why shouldn't he just go off on his own, Courtland threatened him, saying that he would:
"be considered outlaws alongside the brigands and wicked folk that already roam there."
- Considering that bounties are being placed for the heads of such creatures this amounts to a death threat.
Now if NPCs are going to threaten player characters, especially for doing something that is not evil at all, then you can't not expect a response.
If Courtland had instead said: "Well then if you do that they won't let you into the keep to resupply," that would have been entirely different. And Dunganagar would have seen a certain value in this "permission," and gone along.
When I GM I normally only have my NPCs act this way when I want there to be a fight scene. But I figured if you wanted there to be a fight in the tavern I had better let Courtland draw steel first.
I don't want to derail the game, but Dunganagar will not respond well to "if you don't play along we'll have you killed." Even my lawful characters wouldn't think highly of this.
Fair?
Peet/Dunganagar
FYI, I'm out of town for work but should be able post later tonight.
Suffice it to say that we're going to have to agree to disagree on most of these points. I feel like you're focusing upon what I see as inconsequential details for the sake of RP, mostly because we apparently disagree on the context and interpretation of these details.
What I'm seeing as benign and typical terms from a relatively inconsequential NPC you're seeing as draconian threats to your chaotic lifestyle and an opportunity to stand your figurative ground. What I'm seeing as a ruler's prerogative you're seeing as oppressive. What I'm seeing as a simple jumping off point for 1st level characters who should feel as if they're just starting out, you're seeing as belittling and marginalizing.
But to me all of those things are intellectual. Your character is entitled to those opinions, but we're here to game, not debate. Some debate is of course fine but if the character's RP initiates this much disagreement in the gameplay & discussion thread, it has entered disruptive territory. If the character is disagreeing so vehemently this early on with the way the game is set to play out, I am truly worried about issues that will predictably come up later. Are we going to have this argument again when the keep imposes a 10% levy on the goods you bring back? Dunganagar's feelings about taxes won't stop them from coming. This is what I'm worried about.
Peet, we've only just met (online, at least) and I think you're a good guy. I thoroughly enjoyed our PMs back and forth about my world map, game world history, and your enthusiasm in this game. With that said, I don't like this kind of argument and pushback in my games. Because of the amount of work and passion I put into my games situations like this feel like a slap in the face. I'm truly sorry but I need to ask you to step down from this game. I hope you will forgive me for doing so.
...Because of the amount of work and passion I put into my games situations like this feel like a slap in the face. I'm truly sorry but I need to ask you to step down from this game. I hope you will forgive me for doing so.
Hm. Okay, I'm sorry it came to this. Clearly I really misread what kind of game this was going to be. Obviously I can get passionate about RPing too, and clearly I went too far.
No, I won't have any hard feelings and I hope the game works out well.
Do you want me to RP an exit?
** spoiler omitted **
I would like that. Thank you for offering.
Going to wait until Dunganagar's exit before posting. I'm guessing that the drinking contest between he and Eina is off.
Going to wait until Dunganagar's exit before posting. I'm guessing that the drinking contest between he and Eina is off.
We'll play it by ear.
Sorry for the hiccup, everyone. I'll get back on track.
Okay guys, you should be good to go.
Sorry it worked out this way but it was fun while it lasted.
GM: Zedth If you want Dunganagar back as a rival or a villain and want me to RP him, let me know by PM. He would probably decide to range around the area adventuring on his own and might attract a band of rogues. Also: please use the campaign tab to mark Dunganagar as "inactive." I think that will take this game off my campaign tab.
Have fun guys.
Note- If you folks are waiting for something in-game to occur before posting your action/words, and you know you won't be able to post again for awhile, please at least chime in on the discussion thread to say "hey guys, just waiting on the GM's answer for my last question" or "sorry for no post, I'm waiting on X to get resolved", etc. This way we all stay on the same page and stay up to date with our 1/day posting schedule. I know the last couple of days have been weird, so I'm not bothered by people missing a day or two this week.
I've actually been doing better posting wise than I thought I would be able to. I hope that I'm not hogging too much of the spotlight and that Eina is as fun to read as she is to write.
That said, I'm wondering what rolling a natural 1 on her "sober up" roll is going to entail. I also managed to roll max for the number of rounds she's staggered. What a great start to this campaign! :D
Yup. :)
I've actually been doing better posting wise than I thought I would be able to. I hope that I'm not hogging too much of the spotlight and that Eina is as fun to read as she is to write.
Hog away! Lots of posts are good. And yes, lol @ your rolls.
Hello everyone! GM Zedth has been kind enough to invite me to join you guys. I look forward to RPing with you all. :)
Welcome! I'll get you added to the combat map shortly.
I added you right behind the two gate guards at the southeast of the map.
Allow me to second Erodin in his welcome. Looking forward to gaming with you as well.
Welcome to the party.
Thank you all for your welcome. :)
Eina,
I don't like to go back on my rulings unless I made a clear mistake, but I feel like I was too heavy handed with your drunk penalties. I couldn't find any actual rules on intoxication and at a glance the "sickened" condition didn't sound firm enough for someone who just finished a drinking competition. That assessment may be correct but at the same time we're here to have fun, not find the best rules to simulate reality.
For the sake of fun I hereby relieve you if your staggered status. I'm sorry if it has made this combat a drag so far.
No harm done!
Question for you guys -
I have searched for an official answer on this in the FAQs to no avail. I have read multiple threads on the subject and they're filled with opinions that lean toward one side or the other, both sides I can see good points made on.
The question is - When do Attacks of Opportunity 'refresh'? In other words, when does a PC, NPC, or monster gain the ability to use their AoO(s) again? The answer is either 1) at the top of the Combat Round, or 2) when that PC, NPC, Monster's initiative comes again, meaning their combat round has cycled.
I'm not convinced that either one is more correct than the other. The rules are not specific on this.
What are your thoughts? It will probably be good for us all to be on the same page now for future reference, but for disclosure's sake this will affect the next combat round because Pinto provoked an AoO, and since he's at the top of the round one could argue that the Ogre's AoO ability has refreshed, even though it feels wonky because he just used his AoO at the end of the current combat round.
I always use the 'Refresh on it's initiative' rule myself. It's had it's shot and now has to wait for it's action to come round again is the logic.
I second Brandt's opinion. we've always used the initiative of the PC or NPC as the recharge point in my home games.
Without having read the Gameplay thread (so I don't know what you really did), I have always played that AoOs refresh 'individually' right before the PC/NPC is up for his initiative.
I really don't know how you could argue otherwise (although I haven't read any threads on the subject).
Same. It makes more since than refreshing at the top of the round.
Right on. We will proceed with the consensual decision to "refresh" your available AoO(s) upon the individual's initiative. I personally prefer refreshing at the top of the round because it occurs for everyone at the same time, but I can understand the preference to go the other route, and so we will.
Does anyone want to volunteer for keeping track of group loot? Please make clear what items you individually want from the spoils, and make it clear that you're taking them/adding them to your sheet. Setting aside "good" loot that gets claimed, I would appreciate someone stating that the other loot is being taken, so I'm not left to wonder.
You guys have at least one pack animal in the group. If you're trying to carry 8 suits of platemail, 10 suits of leather, 2 large dragonhides, 4 greatswords, 8 longswords, and everyone's rations on the one yak, then I'll take issue with that. But (with Eina's permission, of course) if you guys want to stash your typical spoils there or on another animal, I'm not going to get too worried about encumbrance. Tracking specific weight for every little thing is not fun for me, but I would appreciate if someone would write down what is in the "group loot" pile at any given time.
Would you like me to set up a Google Document link that you guys can edit? Would you rather just put group loot on one person's character sheet to prevent any outsider from editing it?
Let me know your thoughts.
I think I would be happy with a Google Doc that we all can edit. That way we can assign our name to whatever we might want, haggle over any multiple claims that might arise, then liquidate the remainder.
Unless people want to do fancy accounting, I can set up a pretty basic Google Sheet. Plan to do that shortly.
Right on. Let me know when you're done. If you can set up a google doc link or something similar, that'd be great. If not we'll figure out another solution.
Random question - is Eina a Shaman again? I wasn't entirely sure if she's a Shaman or Oracle.
Doh! Going back to the thread to edit the wands again...lol
Eina, please update your header line as it still says your class is shaman.
Oops.
No, she's an oracle. although, with Carith here, I think I'm going to have her multiclass into Electrokinetic, if that's alright with the GM. Speaking of which, are we using the fractional bonuses from unchained?
Unless people want to do fancy accounting, I can set up a pretty basic Google Sheet. Plan to do that shortly.Thank you, Tazo!
Allow me to second this! Thanks a ton!
Uh oh! Looks like our first dispute is at hand. Although I don't think Taecuss meant it as such. I had already claimed the potion of cure mod, but if you really want it I will choose something else. :)