I think part of the problem is that group souls make it harder to spend since we don't have a "Soul Treasurer". Every purchase has to be weighed against what is best for the group. As Pahleg said earlier, it puts more weight on an individual to try and justify their spending.
For me, it sucks since as part of the kamikaze covenant I'm slowing the group's progression over all since we have to share souls. Kekkle has also been approaching the game trying to use as little purchased equipment as possible because, as you said, levels are always more valuable than gear.
But, honestly, I don't really mind the system we have now. It's not my ideal, but it's definitely workable.
I do not like the idea of individual souls. It will put pressure on us to make sure we get equal kills, and then kill stealing might become a problem.
I enjoy the challenge of choosing where to distribute souls. Perhaps more random drops, since the style of Dark Souls is that more often than not your best gear comes from drops as opposed to shops.
I don't think there is a great remedy (that I can think of, at least). Individual soul counts will put pressure on support characters to be more aggressive and ultimately will come down to luck more than teamwork or tactics. Having to choose who levels up and when is a good mechanic in a lot of ways, but it's also lead to us leveling up much faster than any pbp I've been a part of (which is good, but it depends on how much as a GM you want to put leveling up into our responsibility instead of your own).
Maybe we can only level up after getting a boss soul instead of whenever we feel like it? Then it's a bit more like Demon's Souls or Dark Souls 2 where there's no leveling up in the field and it's therefore more tempting to buy better equipment to get us to the point where we CAN use our souls to level up.
I think this is the closest we can get to a Dark Souls style game while maintaining the tabletop group dynamic- what made sense in a single player game can only be stretched so far to suit a team- focused dynamic.
Unrelated, but if I have time this weekend I'll try to get a google doc together of all the flavor text to sort through easily while looking for lore.
I do not like the idea of individual souls. It will put pressure on us to make sure we get equal kills, and then kill stealing might become a problem.
Individual soul counts will put pressure on support characters to be more aggressive and ultimately will come down to luck more than teamwork or tactics.
Well, what if the obtained souls were automatically evenly distributed, not based on who gets the kill? Then again, a single fight wouldn't net that many souls per person (the ogre would have given 31/5= 6.2 souls per person?!) so it'd be wise to pool them again, and we'd come a full circle...
Perhaps more random drops, since the style of Dark Souls is that more often than not your best gear comes from drops as opposed to shops.
This has been my design goal so far (not sure if it's showing? can randomness show without spoiling it?) but I still can't help but feel that gear based primarily on whatever loot GM happens to put there is decreasing player agency... But hey, if you and the others are enjoying this current system, why fix it?
Maybe we can only level up after getting a boss soul instead of whenever we feel like it? Then it's a bit more like Demon's Souls or Dark Souls 2 where there's no leveling up in the field and it's therefore more tempting to buy better equipment to get us to the point where we CAN use our souls to level up.
Hey, I like this idea a lot. I mean A LOT. Anyone else agree?
If i can do this level-up once more before we set this into motion i'm fine with it.
Well I'm an egalitarian. I prefer equality of opportunity over equality of outcome.
I do like the only leveling after bosses idea, but I have been enjoying how open the choices have been.
I do not like the idea of individual souls. It will put pressure on us to make sure we get equal kills, and then kill stealing might become a problem.Individual soul counts will put pressure on support characters to be more aggressive and ultimately will come down to luck more than teamwork or tactics.Well, what if the obtained souls were automatically evenly distributed, not based on who gets the kill?
I support this, if only because I have a tendency to spend frivolously and I wouldn't want that to hold the rest of the group back.
I'd also be fine with leveling up after bosses, but with the caveat that we should see a slight increase in souls gained overall so that we'll actually have enough souls to level up when we get there instead of squandering a "boss soul".
Would it help with loot drops if people put together wish lists of some kind?
What're all your thoughts on Dushica? I really want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but if I let her out I'm responsible for whatever she does, good or bad, and that's a pretty big risk.
Ulrich is against it; he's getting more Lawful, so he's inclined to believe that she must have done something to get thrown in there. And we have enough trouble keeping ourselves alive without pissing off Hellfire and possibly having another psycho killer on the loose.
After all, the first person we ever met here was dying because he ticked off Hellfire...
My character disagrees with Ulrich. He wants to give her the benefit of the doubt and give her a chance.
If i can do this level-up once more before we set this into motion i'm fine with it.
Sure.
In any case, I'm thinking the level-up after bosses idea sounds like something that would improve the game, with the caveat that Kekkle brought up. I'll let the idea incubate for a while and if any of you get any other good ideas, feel free to share.
Would it help with loot drops if people put together wish lists of some kind?
This has been brought up in the home game I run, and ultimately we decided against wishlists, as they take away immersion and make loot less exciting. (It's like knowing what you'll get for Christmas presents... in July. Yay...)
But if there's like, one or two items that would really do nicely to your character... well, one-item list shouldn't hurt. In general though, no it wouldn't help.
Re: Dushica, Ushio has the key and is currently afk. Anyone wants to let her free, you need only take the key.
Maybe we could generally make it a rule that grips only after level 3, that way it's fair top every PC who isnt there yet.
Wait, I just looked thropugh everyone's profiles, am I the first to go to 3rd?
Nyet, Pahleg was this first to make it to three. My guess is that he hasn't had a chance to update his stat-block yet.
Would it help with loot drops if people put together wish lists of some kind?This has been brought up in the home game I run, and ultimately we decided against wishlists, as they take away immersion and make loot less exciting. (It's like knowing what you'll get for Christmas presents... in July. Yay...)
But if there's like, one or two items that would really do nicely to your character... well, one-item list shouldn't hurt. In general though, no it wouldn't help.
Well, we could also consider enacting the Automatic Bonus Progression or Scaling Magic Item alternate systems.
In the case of a latter I think it would be cool if, rather than using pre-generated items, the players were allowed to "build" their items by channeling souls (and possibly consuming special materials) and using the tables to determine prices.
That way we would still have some flexibility with getting the items that work for us without having to request them OOC and the tertiary benefit of building a legacy.
I think it'd be pretty cool to craft the "Scarecrow's Set" or something, meself.
Good ideas there. Automatic Bonus Progression would mean that inability to find Big Six items won't screw everyone, so that sounds promising.
Scaling Magic Items I was not a fan of when Unchained came out, but what you are describing sounds so amazingly cool... must try it out.
Majestic Greatsword
(0) If I wanted a greatsword that grants a +2 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks as a wonder item (30% of treasure)...
(1) Its price according to Magic Item Creation rules would be 400gp + 350gp = 750gp. This would make its starting caster level 3rd.
(2) Let's give it an unlockable ability that makes it a +1 greatsword as well. It's new price would be 750gp + 2,000gp = 2,750gp. According to the chart, it'd become a +1 greatsword at user level 5th.
(3) Then another unlockable that makes it a +2 greatsword. New price 750gp + 8,000gp = 8,750gp, unlocking at user level 8th.
CONCLUSION: Weapons upgrade really slowly, apparently. But if we use the Automatic Bonus Progression rules as well, it'd give more space for fluff creations, rather than a plain +1/+2/... bonus.
Ring of Undeath
(0) A ring that grants a +1 competence bonus on Knowledge (religion) checks as a prize item (15% of treasure).
(1) Its price is 100gp making its starting caster level 2nd.
(2) Let's make it cast lesser animate dead once per day. The spell doesn't improve much at later levels, so the unlockable ability is priced at the minimum caster level. According to chart, a CL3 spell is 2,160gp. The ring's new price would be 2,260gp, so it unlocks at 6th level.
(3) How about animate dead spell as an unlockable? The spell may become stronger the bigger critters the user gets to reanimate, so pricing it becomes a bit more difficult. Let's say its caster level stops making a difference past 8th level (at which point it can animate critters up to 16HD, more than enough!), so it's priced at 8,640gp. Making its new price 2,260gp + 8,640gp = 10,900gp, so it unlocks at 11th level, or at 9th if the ring was a wonder item.
CONCLUSION: Adding spells to a scalable item makes it unlock really slowly, even if the spells are relatively low-level spells.
So after that quick test I think that scalable magic items are cool on paper but come online just too late. Or how would you feel as a barbarian if you got your basic +1 greatsword at 5th level? Especially if it's supposed to be a sword that represents your legacy as a barbarian?
If we're going to implement customisable gear (which I think we should), Scalable Magic Items are probably a sub-optimal way to do it.
Opinions? Ideas?
It doesn't seem so bad if you consider that you can have multiple scaling items that you want to improve. Going off of WBL a +2 greatsword is a stretch at 5th level anyways (almost 90% of your budget), so I don't think it particularly heinous that you're saddled with a +1 until a little later. What I think is really attractive about Scaling Items is that they allow some of the more "quirky" abilities instead of your standard "+X Keen" whatever.
It my also help to look at the old Legacy Weapon system from 3.5. I suppose we could also look at the Innate Item Bonus rules, but only as an alternative to Automatic Bonus Progression.
I can do without scaling items. I don't really mind either way though. Just keep in mind that with automatic bonuses it works a little differently.
But automatic bonus progression is nice. I'm going to level up now.
Going off of WBL a +2 greatsword is a stretch at 5th level anyways (almost 90% of your budget), so I don't think it particularly heinous that you're saddled with a +1 until a little later.
Mostly I meant that you'd be struck with a +0 weapon until 5th level, at which point you finally get it at +1. If WBL table is anything to go by, the same barbarian could have bought it at 3rd level taking 66% off the budget. The same greatsword continues to be late, being +2 at 8th level. 8th level PCs, according to WBL, should have 33,000gp, so a +2 weapon would be 1/4 of his budget.
What I'm saying is, the legacy item does much worse than one bought from a store. Not very thrilling, is it?
I don't have 3.5 Legacy Weapon rules. How about instead of scaling items, there'd be materials that allow gear to be upgraded? Think titanite, only with neat and quirky boons instead of "does more damage".
Something like this (names subject to change):
Deceptive Shard: Adds a cumulative +1 competence bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks, up to +5.
Deceptive Stone: Makes the item cast disguise self once per day.
etc.
Fire Shard: Adds a cumulative resist fire 2, up to resist fire 10.
etc.
Okay, levelled up:
I included the to hit and damage bonus from point blank shot in my kinetic blast in the stat block because the blast's maximum range is equal to point-blank's range.
I don't have 3.5 Legacy Weapon rules. How about instead of scaling items, there'd be materials that allow gear to be upgraded? Think titanite, only with neat and quirky boons instead of "does more damage".
Something like this (names subject to change):
Deceptive Shard: Adds a cumulative +1 competence bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks, up to +5.
Deceptive Stone: Makes the item cast disguise self once per day.
etc.Fire Shard: Adds a cumulative resist fire 2, up to resist fire 10.
etc.
But then there'd be an over-abundance of such items and we'd end up back where we started, in a way, where we are relying on loot drops to get the gear that we want.
I'll spend some more time trying to think of suggestions.
You may have a point there... Man, game design is hard.
I'll list some of the design aspects for this endeavor, see if that helps.
- Goal: Allow players to have greater access to desired gear.
- Limitation: Avoid purchased items and reliance on enemy drops.
- Goal: Allow players to customize their gear, to some degree.
- Obstacle: Souls are currently better used for leveling-up.
It seems that one way to fix the system would be to nerf souls needed to level up.
The current exchange rate is 1 soul = 10 gp = 100 XP
It'd drastically increase player gp if the rate was 1 soul = 10 gp = 10 XP
When a level-up to 3rd level costs 300 souls instead of 30, suddenly the items that go in shops for a few dozen souls begin sounding like worth considering. This could be the starting point for a soul-based item customization mechanic, as now the last obstacle is removed.
I swear to Aurorink if she was 1 soul away from leveling up I'm going to kick myself in the head.
Funny, my home group would have kicked me in the head if I ever tried something like that...
So um, only Johnnycat and I haven't caught the flu?
I am here, very busy day at work yesterday- I just don't have much to add to the situation.
I'm considering having Ulrich join Hellfire.
I actually called-out sick today, is why I could post.
Go for it Ulrich.
So um, only Johnnycat and I haven't caught the flu?
I have as a matter of fact caught at least a mean cold, but I'm around.
So automatic bonus progression is a thing now? Then I'd have yet to raise my saves by 1 each.
So automatic bonus progression is a thing now? Then I'd have yet to raise my saves by 1 each.
It's not a final decision, but I am considering it, yes. Still waiting for more input from you guys, since it'd be implemented at the same time as the level-up system rebalance mentioned here. Quite a big deal!
No post for today. If you are sick, take a rest, forget the game for a while. If you are healthy (like I am, thanks for asking), join the discussion here on Discussion thread, subject above.
Get well soon, everyone!
I have zero experience with auto progression so I have no idea if it will work well.
Basically it boils down to less cloak of resistance, more +1 saves.
Yes, rather than having to buy magic items and weapons with small static bonuses (the "big 6", Ability Scores, Armor, Weapon, Saves, Natural Armor, Deflection) you get these bonuses automatically as you level up.
Automatic Bonus Progression rules
Well I'm definitely in favor.
I like the automatic bonus idea! More interesting magic items = better magic items!
And I do like the 1 soul= 10 gp= 10 XP idea. I love leveling up as much as the next person, but I think we're going a bit faster than is ideal. And it makes stuff in the shops much more desirable; that estus flask shard is a better purchase, for example, if we can't just stuff another level into Pahleg for more healing.
OK, we've heard everyone save Ushio, and it sounds like everyone are varying degrees of approving the idea.
Souls needed to level up are now XP needed divided by 10, rather than divided by 100. Have trouble keeping up with the math? Here are some level-ups and their soul costs listed:
Level 1>2: 200
Level 2>3: 300
Level 3>4: 400
Level 4>5: 600
To keep things simple, naturally, this rule does not come into effect retroactively. Carry on.
Characters can only level up after defeating a boss, rather than any time.
Defeated enemies now award more souls.
Characters now advance according to Automatic Bonus Progression. Magic weapons and armor continue to exist: rules for those can be found in the link, on the bottom of the page.
Ulrich, your +1 heavy wooden shield loses it's +1 enhancement bonus, instead gaining a special ability of +1 adjustment (eg. arrow catching, bashing, light fortification etc). Would you like to choose the special ability yourself, or have the GM do it?
GM's choice works for me.
Light Fortification Heavy Wooden Shield
A large shield made primarily of wood. Covers its wearer nicely.Light fortification heavy wooden shield. Worth 131 souls.
Many shieldmakers paint an image on the shield to represent its origin. This one depicts a black cross.
Back.
I apologize for being gone longer than i have said i would be. I needed a little time to be a recluse again; It really helps the introvert inside. As well, i needed to submerge myself in mine own life again. I am going to be back tomorrow, tonight i'll be studying up on my next move; a bit of text has flown by since the last time I've been here.
The white haired fetchling shall be back.
It's cool I'm doing a really sweet slo-mo walk to go hear Dushica's final plea.
lol ninja'd
Real world flu seasons seem to correlate with the time flow in the Labyrinth.
Welcome back, Ushio!!
No, no. Give key to Kekkle, Kekkle love key.
Yeah, no kekkle. Not giving you the key.
And on the metagaming, I think that everyone hates it. I'll try even harder to get into character from now on (while avoiding things he doesn't know).
I retract my previous statement; Ulrich is doing far better with the suggestion than myself.
With a 7 wisdom, Ulrich genuinely thinks that was his idea.
Hello everybody. Sorry to barge in on your discussion thread, but I am a friend of Pahleg and am here posting on his behalf. He will be unable to post at all until Friday. Rest assure that everything is fine and his posting will be completely back to normal on Friday. Please DMPC him as necessary. Thank you.
Thanks for letting us know! (Wow, your account is literally 17 of this message. Campincarl must be pretty busy with PbP. He's lucky to have a good friend like you.)
Okay- should we see what's at the end of this long hallway we're right next to or backtrack to the ladder room we initially came to and explore the room full of portraits? Or the ladder room on B15F that has a passage heading west?
I'd like to explore the rest of where we are for the sake of being thorough.
Where is everybody?
I'm here