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Greetings from friendly, wholesome Indianapolis.
I am back, but we will wait until thermopyle is back to fully get back in the swing of things.
I realized I had not answered thermopyle's question about leveling NPCs. I should probably double-check the later AP books as well as the NPC Guide, but off the top of my head/quick cursory glance at the PRD, there is no means of advancing NPCs outside of the Leadership feat.
If you want to significantly advance any NPCs, you will have to take the the Leadership feat (at 7th level, which will be around the time you hit the end of the second book). I was planning to say, closer to that time, that of course, if you took this feat, the cohort would be a crew member of your choice. The followers would be crew of my choice, bearing in mind your relationship with crew and level restrictions. Now, technically, early level followers (not cohorts) have to be 1st level, and all crew are at least 2nd level, but I'll handwave that or otherwise cross that bridge when we come to it.
I have thought about offering a slower advancement for NPCs to slowly reflect less so much their experience, where you might pick one NPC to gain a level everytime you level, so long as their level was no more than two levels below yours. This as determined can't kick in until you're 6th level, because you already have a 3rd level NPC crew member (Sandara)---and I'm not even sure this would necessarily be a good idea.
My rationale/interpretation of the rules' intent:
From a storytelling perspective, you three are the heroes of the story, and the other characters support, minions, enemies, and mooks. In heroic narratives, the heroes tend to grow in skill and power in a relatively short time while a support characters' abilities will not grow at all or at a much lower level.
From a mechanical perspective, PCs are special. Only they gain XP--only they advance and improve noticeably. That's why they get the good stuff--but also have to take the risks. NPCs are, from a purely game-engineering perspective, either additional resources to the PCs just like treasure and strongholds and class abilities are, or obstacles and hindrances that become sources of treasure and experience points. They do not "advance" any more than your backpack does. Of course, you can find ways to improve gear and strongholds and such, but it is a draw upon your resources and still also relatively speaking a slower "advancement" than the ways PCs level.
I realize from a player POV, perhaps thinking of it from a more narrative perspective, it may look weird--Rosie in the story participated in the travels, talked to the party, helped fight; from that POV she should also be getting better the way the PCs are. But I am looking at it from both a meta-narrative perspective (she is not a hero, you are) as well as a game perspective -- Rosie has no "player" of her own. While thermopyle controlled her in combat and I had her throw in some dialogue for flavor (or a disguised voice-of-GM) Rosie solved no puzzles, made no plans, or otherwise majorly influenced the story in any way. You all did. If the players decide to have Rosie do something cool, that isn't a bonus Rosie gets, that's one the party gets, in the from of XP, hero points, or other in-game bonus.
Rosie did not gain experience--it was split three ways between you as always--and when considering how to design a challenge of an encounter, I only counted her as a party asset the way I did your gear and other resources.
Also, the Leadership mechanic provides explicit controls and guidelines for how related NPCs should be leveled compared to PCs. If a cohort can be only one level lower than the associated PC, and that requires a feat for that to happen, then a non-cohort ordinary NPC should not "advance" in a way that would allow them to be effectively a cohort-in-name-only. I trust in the devs to have established this way of balancing NPC advancement (i.e., the Leadership feat) for a reason.
Now, some games have GMPCs, which is technically an NPC but one who is designed to fill in a gap in the party and does advance like a PC does. But given this game is heavily NPC intensive, I cannot properly devote my time and energy to playing a true GMPC on top of running everything else in the game.
If you want an ally who levels with you, I can look into recruiting a new player.
Otherwise the best I am going to offer you is the Leadership feat at 7th and possibly a slower, more singular NPC advancement when you hit 6th level or thereabouts.
You also need to bear in mind that while your allies are lower level, you now have 16 of them, and at least if you work to recruit new crew, you can have a lot more NPC allies than that. Allowing 16-40 NPCs to advance along with you will definitely break the intended balance of encounters in the campaign.
I have thought about offering a slower advancement for NPCs to slowly reflect less so much their experience, where you might pick one NPC to gain a level everytime you level, so long as their level was no more than two levels below yours. This as determined can't kick in until you're 6th level, because you already have a 3rd level NPC crew member (Sandara)---and I'm not even sure this would necessarily be a good idea.
This is not quite right and unclear:
The idea--if I implement it--is:
1. When you level, you can choose any one crew member to gain a level.
2. No crew member's level can be higher than your level-2. So you are 4th level, you can't level anyone because the highest level someone can have is 2nd and everyone is already 2nd level at least (and Sandara is 3rd level, but of course she gets to keep the levels the AP gives her).
3. At 5th level, actually you could level one 2nd level character to 3rd. At 6th, you could level a 3rd level character (Sandara or someone else you leveled last time) to 4th.
4. Another thought I had which I didn't mention above is that you could alternately opt to do this instead: the "generic" pirates (everyone who isn't Cog, Conchobhar, Sandara, Rosie, Kroop, or Nadira) could be given PC levels instead of their NPC warrior levels (i.e., Warrior 2 would become Fighter 2 -- or another appropriate class of your choice (they can't become spellcasters if they aren't already).
I still am not sure this works with the balance as intended for the AP. It's not that I am worried about you breaking out of bounds -- I trust you guys a lot and I know the request came more out of "honoring" Rosie's support of the team. But I do want to bear in mind how the devs considered any ship to ship battles and boarding actions to work, and I believe most of them do not presume the NPC crew to level. If I change this I could create a lot more work for myself in managing the crew battles and I don't really want to do that. I hope you understand.
All this said, thoughts, ideas, and suggestions are welcome.
First off, I'm sure nobody wants to change the balance of the game. PC centered. PC advancement. Most important.
That being said, if the PC's keep advancing and the NPCs do not get some kind of benefit (of which level advancement is one) then pretty soon NPCs will go from being as useful as a backpack to, well, not useful at all (and eventually becoming a liability). And that's because as PC levels advance, challenges become harder. Eventually we'll be fighting things that immediately kill NPCs (Or zombie-fy them. Or make them thralls. Or drop them on us like human body-bombs from 1000'. Etc.).
So we either need more powerful NPC's to run with us, or we leave NPC's behind. I like the flavor the NPCs have brought so far and still feel like they could be a source of adventuring plot hooks even if they aren't mixing it up with us.
The NPCs will always be useful because they make the ship go. Which is really important in this campaign. The higher level combats tend to focus on PCs vs appropriate CR enemies while the crew fights equivalent crew in the background (if crews are involved).
That said, I will pay attention to such things.
ETA: If you constantly want a 4th party member to support you at a level close to your own, one of you needs to take Leadership at 7th, or we need to recruit a new player. That is up to you.
I have, can, and will continue to adjust party-based combats for your small and tankless party.
Hey folks, a possible opportunity has arisen: a good friend of mine just told me he'd like to get into a play by post game. I offered to send him some info on the game. Before I do, though, I wanted to check with you to be sure you were okay inviting someone else. Story-wise we're in a good place to add a crew member soon.
I've run a campaign with him before though none of you have played with him; he's a good role player and good team player. I told him we ideally need either a warrior or divine caster and he said he'd be okay with either.
Let me know what you think. I hope your travels have all gone well.
I'm back! Traveling was good and it's also nice to be home.
When I asked about leveling Rosie I was thinking both about her travels with us and about getting her killed if Lark kept dragging her along as a flanking buddy. However, I'm now in agreement with GMDQ that leveling the NPCs and crew would be very difficult and likely broken. Tweaking the fights sounds simpler and has worked well so far. As always, huge thanks to GMDQ for all the work she does!
Adding another player sounds good to me, especially since GMDQ has played with them before.
Let's go ahead and bring them in. Some new blood to swab the decks with! Er, sail the high seas with, yeah, that's it!
I'm good with adding another player.
KeefX - how was Gencon? Was there any particular highlight this year?
It was great. I GM-ed at the con for the first time.
I'm running out, but I'll type more soon...
So KeefX's post kind of alarmed me a little so I want to remind y'all/have some reasonable transparency about the thrust of the game and give some background:
So, Skull and Shackles is a game about being pirates. I'm pretty sure I have been clear about this from the start, but just in case I haven't, I want to say this now.
The #1 goal of the party as intended in the AP -- which is not to say it's the only goal -- is to become recognized as Free Captains of the Shackles. All of the Free Captains are pirates of one sort or another.
Now absolutely I did also say I wanted to do a relatively heroic campaign, good-hearted rogue swashbuckling sort of stuff. Not so much torture, rape, and pillaging. I wanna do "Pirates of the Caribbean," not dark bloody ick. I started you off as monster hunters and raider hunters to provide a less icky background... And I worry now I steered you wrong, a bit. But all privateers are, are pirates with extra documentation. They attack and raid other ships they were paid to or what they could get away with. Golly preyed on slavers and unsavory sorts... But he also did what he did for fame, treasure, etc. He was a good, fair, disciplined captain. But pirates can be that too. I did NOT mention this before, but indeed Golly himself would have been working on getting recognized as a Free Captain as it's safer to operate with that recognition.
Now you absolutely can be pirates who largely gain fame through monster hunting, slaver hunting, Cheliax hunting, treasure hunting, etc. And you will need to indeed earn reputation and lots of loot--there is a whole system in place for that that I will share soon.
But if you don't want to become pirates and don't want to become Free Captains, then about 90% of the AP flies out the window. I don't wanna make you do something you don't want to, and I obviously failed to set up the best tone to lead you down the path organically. I fully admit some presumption on my part. That said, if you totally want to sandbox this as you go in a totally different direction we can discuss it and how we might eventually proceed. We are alright no matter what for the time being. But I want to think about the future.
Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We pillage plunder, we rifle and loot.
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
We kidnap and ravage and don't give a hoot.
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We extort and pilfer, we filch and sack.
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
Maraud and embezzle and even highjack.
Drink up me 'earties, yo ho.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo_Ho_(A_Pirate%27s_Life_for_Me)
This is all to say, yes, I'm down with tearing around the Shackles as a pirate and free captain.
I think that pirating is a fine thing.
Slaver hunting, Cheliax hunting, and treasure hunting are all probably officially 'pirate' activities. Monster hunting, maybe not so much.
Buckling a swash or shivering some timbers is cool. Avoiding the 'icky' is very cool.
I love your enthusiasm, thermopyle. :) There will be many shivering of timbers, KeefX. You don't have to hunt monsters, but you may well run into them a lot. :)
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Reposting the current crew list, with the assignments that I am aware of:
Lark Greenwood, NG Human Rogue 4, PC, Captain
Threnody Nocturne, CG Tiefling Bard 4, PC, first mate and bosun
Lee O'Neld, NG Halfling Sorcerer 4, PC, quartermaster
Muffin O'Neld, cat, familiar, rat catcher
Sandara Quinn, CN human cleric 3, helpful, surgeon
Rosie Cusswell, CN halfling fighter 2, helpful, swab
Crimson Cogward, N human ranger 1/rogue 1, helpful, sailing master's mate/sailing master in training
Fishguts Kroop, N human middle-aged rogue 3, helpful, cook
Owlbear Heartshorn, N human fighter 2, helpful, watchstander
Conchobhar Shortstone, N gnome bard 2, friendly, rigger
Barefoot Samms, CG human warrior 2, friendly, rigger
Giffer Tibbs, NG gnome warrior 2, friendly, rigger
Jack Scrimshaw, N human warrior 2, friendly, Rigger
Tilly Brackett, N human warrior 2, friendly, Swab
Badger Medlar, N half-elf warrior 2, indifferent, swab
Shivikah, N human warrior 2, indifferent, swab
Maheem, LN human warrior 2, indifferent, rigger
Nadira, LN human ranger 3, unfriendly/indifferent, current sailing master
==
If I have not reflected any assignments correctly, please let me know.
All things going well, you should be getting an undine druid in the not too distant future as a party member.
Just as a note: you are at about 16 crew. You need at least 20 to operate at any sufficiency (right now everyone's operating at a penalty); the max crew capacity is 40 (which makes running things much easier).
Probably once KD joins us and we have some other things established like what you will re-name your ship (I would say re-christen, but obviously there should be no such word in Golarion. re-Besmaren?), then I will make a new pretty roster with relevant into on it.
How did we want to introduce the idea of a talking cat?
Have Muffin say, "Look at me when I'm talking to you?"
Have another crewmember (who knows Celestial) hear Muffin muttering?
Maybe have Kroop point out that Muffin has become "strangely and specifically vocal"?
Or maybe just a lot of this:
https://youtu.be/5n4mASdYMbg
Muffin can't talk, remember? I ruled he can understand the languages you understand, but can't speak.
(I actually later randomly found in Ultimate Campaign a ruling that you have to take a certain amount of time to teach intelligent animals to understand (but not speak) a language, and there were some guidelines for how to do that, but I'm not doubling back at this point.)
You are exactly correct.
Can't talk.
My bad.
FYI, as a mark of closing the first book: each of you can choose one of your weapons and one armor or shield that you currently possess. Make these two items +1. If you already have a +1 item of that type, instead choose something to become masterwork. (I know that doesn't seen equal but I am trying to make sure your equipment is somewhat balanced moving into the next scenario.)
Lee if you do not want the armor or shield, I have something else in mind for you but you may not get it right away.
Lee would have issues with armor or shield.
Let's go with 'something else' and roleplay our way into it.
Sweet! Thank you!
Also - I won't be able to post tonight or tomorrow (Saturday). Back on Sunday.
All right, I'll upgrade my buckler and rapier to +1, thank you!
Have we started thinking about a new name for the boat?
Did we ever get a name for the island on which we took the boat? If we ever get a name for that island, I kind of like:
The Pride of <insert currently unnamed, monster-filled island's name here>
Also, I like:
The Anna (which is Lee's mother's name)
And, if it doesn't place some kind of sacred bulls-eye on us:
The Besmara's Whim or just Besmara's Whim
I like Besmara's Whim myself.
The island you were shipwrecked on was named Bonewrack Island.
In order to gain a footing and survive in the Shackles, you need to develop a reputation as fearsome and competent pirates. With enough glory earned, you can petition to be recognized officially as a Free Captain of the Shackles.
To do this, you need Infamy.
Related to Infamy are two expendable pools of resources, Disrepute and Plunder.
The entire system is explained at length here:
https://beyond-the-shore.obsidianportal.com/wiki_pages/plunder-and-infamy
But as written (these are the official rules) I feel like they approach things backwards. These also basically work like the Fame and Reputation scores discussed in Ultimate Campaign, but obviously use different parameters. You should read the rules in the link, but here is the summary:
Infamy is a quantified value that reflects a sum of all your KNOWN piratical deeds. (If you do something awesome, but no one knows about it, it doesn't count.)
The more Infamy you gain, the more influence you have in various piratical situations.
Your max Infamy score cannot exceed 4 x your Average Party Level (APL). (Your current APL is 3. If and when our 4th party member joins in, your APL will be 4, as in your have 4 party members at 4th level. So with 4 party members, your current Infamy cannot exceed 16. Your current Infamy is 0. You will probably need around 20 Infamy or so to make any sort of impression on the Free Captains.
When you gain Infamy, you also gain Disrepute. When you FIRST gain Disrepute, you gain it at an amount equal to your Infamy. So let's say, you do a cool deed worth 4 Infamy. When you earn that 4 Infamy, you also earn 4 Disrepute.
The difference between Infamy and Disrepute, is that Disrepute is an expendable resource, whereas Infamy is a sum total. So while Infamy and Disrepute may start off at the same number, Disrepute can fluctuate regularly, whereas Infamy should generally only, slowly, go up.
So what can you buy with Disrepute? Impositions. These are things that if you buy them, they grant you a boon. Some are permanent, e.g., "+2 to certain checks in a favored port"; others are temporary, e.g., "next critical hit auto-confirms."
You can't start buying Impositions until you've obtained Infamy 10. This is the first "Infamy Threshhold." Some impositions can only be taken after you achieve a certain Infamy Threshhold (10, 20, etc.). The list of Impositions and what you can do with them is at the link I sent.
So how do these values increase?
1. You brag about it
Whenever you enter a new port, you can spend a full day spreading tales of your glory. You make a Bluff, Intimidate, or Perform check at DC 5 + (2 x APL). Success raises it by +1, exceptional success may increase it further.
You can only gain up to 5 Infamy and Disrepute in a given port per threshhold. So if you go to Lilywhite and make an Infamy check and earn 5 Infamy there, you won't be able to do it again until you've gained 10 or more Infamy.
2. You just do something so cool everyone knows
Some things are witnessed or so amazing word spreads fast about it. I will tell you if you do something that earns you instant Infamy (and Disrepute).
Bribing Your Way to Fame: Plunder
Of course, you can't be pirates without loot. The amount of plunder you gain helps you gain Infamy.
"Plunder" represents an abstract amount of goods looted or found from other ships, sunken treasure, etc. etc. etc. It can be anything that has a value, whether art objects or just a metric asston of fish.
1 point of plunder generally equals 1,000 gp. You CAN simply sell plunder for its gp value -- or buy it for the same cost if you need more plunder.
But the big value in Plunder is in improving your infamy checks.You can
- Spend Plunder to improve the results of your Infamy checks. Before rolling, spend however many points of Plunder you like. You gain a +2 to the roll for each point spent.
- spend 3 points of plunder to reroll a failed Infamy check. You can do this once per Infamy check.
Lark's real first name is Prosperity and that's not a bad ship's name. I'm just sayin' ;)
Seriously, I'd lean toward Besmara's Whim - but definitely check with Quinn first!
Also! I'm working up another big list of our all our loot and hopefully I can post that soon. The amulet Thren asked about is on there and already marked as going to her. Lathiira - I'd say go ahead and add that to Thren's sheet.
I'll upgrade Lark's short sword and studded leather armor to +1.
Lark also needs a second short sword. It's a preferable off-hand weapon instead of the dagger he's been using. Can I say he found one in the ship's armory or do you want me to take in-game steps to try and find one?
It's more than reasonable to say there is a common short sword in the armory.
I agree with the amulet going to Thren.
Add it to her sheet and enjoy.
Noted. And thanks!
Bear with me folks, busy day. Will post later today.
You guys ever decide on a ship's name?
Besmara's Whim!
I think that one got the most votes.
GMDQ - I feel your pain. This is the first day of classes, so today's been jammed and the whole week might be rough.
Are you teaching, thermopyle? Sorry, I've forgotten what you've been doing.
Orientation at work today for the students -- definitely a busy time! Our new player was also slowed a bit by start of the school year but he should be ready to go by the time his character should appear in the game!
I like the name! Someone mentioned asking Sandara, and she might suggest "The Black Lady's Whim" or the "Sea Banshee's Whim" for something slightly more subtle, but it's up to you. I don't think the goddess would take offense! (Apropos of nothing, Besmara's ship is called the Seawraith)
I am suddenly thankful, if but slightly, that I don't have academia to make life interesting right now. Instead, our grand reopening is Friday. I wish you both good luck and a modicum of sanity.
I may have missed this, but did the party get/replenish Hero Points at the end of the last chapter/killing of Plugg & Scourge event?
Try to stay calm and collected while the flood of new students washes over and around you all.
No teaching for me. I'm a sys admin at a medium-size SUNY school (~~7K enrollment). I don't usually deal directly with students but when everyone hits the servers at the same time there are always issues.
Keefx - I think we get one hero point when we leveled. Lark had one extra awarded by GMDQ on the island, and now's he's back down to one.
Yes, you gain a hero point whenever you level, and the max number of hero points you can have is equal to your level. (I believe that's what I said). You only get the one hero point for leveling, but if you had several before, then you should have multiple hero points.
If you need more hero points, you can try to do stuff to earn them!
(And yes KeefX, I know you were trying to be daring at the start of the chase and by not participating in the chase, but there is a difference between daring and taking on 60 people and eight ballista by yourself. I really just wanted to try out the chase rules there. I appreciate the energy--apply it to something else!)
Will do!
I was just exploring the situation. It wasn't what I had hoped, so I moved on pretty quickly.
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Hi All
Looks like I'll be joining you all soon. It's my first on-line message board rpg experience so.... *EEEK*
I was wondering if you all would mind taking a look at Wahhe and telling me what you think: is she going to be useful the way i have her set up? Is the back ground story ok for you?
Thanks
'KD*
http://paizo.com/people/Wahhe
Welcome to the Shackles!
Your story is fine, looks like you're going for a more caster-based druid.
I do note your AC is listed at 18, but with a +3 Dex bonus. A 15 Dex gives you a +2 bonus. So your math there is correct (you do have an AC of 18, assuming a decent-large shield), but your touch AC is not (should be 12).
Also, not sure about your spells. The choices are good, just the formatting. You list that you can cast 4 1st level spells/day, but only list your domain spell plus 2 others; similar for 2nd level spells, except your domain spell isn't lsited. Are you leaving slots open? And don't forget that you spontaneously cast summon nature's ally, so preparing that spell isn't all that necessary unless you're modifying it with metamagic.
I think you'll fit in quite well.
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awesome, thanks. i'll use the necros sheet here at home to do the calcs because math and i aren't friends. je parle français, mais je suis nul en maths.
i'll take a look at what i did there with help on this side. thanks for the spell bit -- i'll work on that when i wake up -- probably during this lovely east coast storm that's on its way. :-D
been reading the threads and am excited!!!
I'm no expert at the math either, I manage though. And I'm not sure I'm ready for another storm on the East Coast after this last one with the 18 hour power outage! Good to see you're excited!
Official welcome to KD aka Wahhe. We'll be meeting his character soon! I want to finish this scene with Hartha and then bring Wahhe in.
Spoiler alert: depending on how things go, Hartha may hand you a sidequest. I recommend recruiting a local guide for assistance before doing it. COUGH COUGH.
As for Wahhe's AC -- Wahhe's Dex is showing as 16? So the numbers are correct but the total AC should in fact be 19. Touch AC is correct at 13. FF is correct. Delete that stray [i] before the Touch AC.
Wahhe you also need to put in your skills. The example from the template is still there but nothing else.
Welcome aboard, KD! This has been my first play-by-post as well and I've been having a grand time.
I like your backstory. I don't think any of us are purely traditional pirates, so Wahhe should fit right in.
I based my mathmatical comments on the 15 Dex I see when I look at Wahhe's page. I sense we have a druid that is some days more nimble than others...sounds like the rest of the crew!
I based my mathmatical comments on the 15 Dex I see when I look at Wahhe's page. I sense we have a druid that is some days more nimble than others...sounds like the rest of the crew!
Ah, I see -- in the form fields, he put in 15, but corrected it to 16 in the statblock. I believe it was 15 from point buy, and then at 4th level increased to 16.
(I actually personally wish y'all would leave the form fields blank and just show the stablock as I find that easier to read, but I know several of you don't do that and you have to do what's easier for you).
Speaking of form fields, Wahhe, I do need you to delete the content of the race and class fields, and in the "race" field enter the following (filling in with your stats):
race class [HP 00/00 AC 00 T 00 FF 00 | CMD 00 | Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +0 | Init +0 Perc +0]
If you look at the gameplay thread, you'll see what this looks like on the other characters' posts. This helps both me and you track essential combat statistics and makes running combat easier.
Hey there.
Belated 'welcome to the team' --> Wahhe
GMDQ - how detailed do you want me to get with Hartha's payment and crew shares?
We've got 2 points of plunder (~1k GP each), 400 GP in cash and another 1800 GP in treasure from Bonewrack Island. This does not count weapons, armor, potions, tools, etc.
Do you want me to RP asking Hartha if she'll take plunder for payment?
While in many cases I like love to RP everything, this is a case where we can reasonably handwave. You can pay directly in plunder--that is always an acceptable form of payment in the shackles!