Wild shape natural spell spotting

Am I right in saying that anyone that has polymorphed into some sort of innocuous animal, like a sea gull on a beach full of sea gulls, and is then using natural apell or something like it to cast spells, will be undetectable as such short of anything but True Sight?

Richard

I'd give someone a Knowledge Nature and Perception check to spot the difference between a natural animal and someone wearing a "polymorph suit".

Definitely Nature or Perception to spot out the unusual behavior, Detect magic for determining if anything is even magical in the group of seagulls. Perhaps there would be a sense motive check vs bluff to truly determine if the bird is just a bird. If they spotted the unusual bird, they could use dispel or something to reveal their true form... or they could just blast it.

I think casting a spell while in animal form is more than obvious. You probably still have to make movements and sounds thoroughly unusual (but not impossible) for an animal to make.

You're still performing the verbal and somatic components of the spell. Those can still be spotted. In fact, even the casting of a stilled and silent metamagic'd spell can be identified (per this thread). Anyone with spellcraft can identify the spell the wildshaper is casting. The GM might throw a circumstance modifier on the roll, but that's it.

The wildshaped seagull in the flock of seagulls would be analagous to the wizard in a crowd of ... (insert group of strangely dressed people here).

It does seem like it needs careful handling. For example, let's say you're playing a game like Kingmaker that involves exploring a wilderness. You're a mid-level druid. You fly around in the shape of a small bird. If you see a dangerous monster, you cast Baleful Polymorph on it. If it passes the save, what's it going to do?

It does seem like it needs careful handling. For example, let's say you're playing a game like Kingmaker that involves exploring a wilderness. You're a mid-level druid. You fly around in the shape of a small bird. If you see a dangerous monster, you cast Baleful Polymorph on it. If it passes the save, what's it going to do?

Depends on the monster and situation of course. Those capable of making a ranged attack, will most likely do so. If it can fly, you just might have a chase on your hands.

This is the interesting clause of WildShape:

You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.

If you're a seagull, you're only going to be able to do what seagulls do; question is, will it look like a seagull doing what seagulls do, or will it look like a seagull that's gone a bit mad?

It happened in my game yesterday with a vampire druid turned into a bat. It could have been a small bat, not necessarily a Dire one. So what's a little bat going to do that's going to look so odd?

It's a funny one.

Richard

I tend to assume that any magic involves glowing green lights. (Or blue lights, if it's a healing spell.)

So what's a little bat going to do that's going to look so odd?

Sharp-eyed Rogue: What is that bat doing ? The hokey-pokey ?

What if I wild shape into a bush?

My god - that bush is doing the hokey-cokey fireball variant !

EVERYONE GET DOWN!

Richard :-)

Am I right in saying that anyone that has polymorphed into some sort of innocuous animal, like a sea gull on a beach full of sea gulls, and is then using natural apell or something like it to cast spells, will be undetectable as such short of anything but True Sight?

Richard

No you are not. Natural Spell only allows spellcasting while wildshaped. It does not eliminate verbal or somatic components, so your seagull is as obviously making unnatural gesticulations and noises as any humanoid.

First, the NPC needs to know the "true" sounds or actions of the creature. Second, they might need a perception check to find the animal if it is in a group of normal animals. So, a rat among a swarm of rats is practically impossible to see. A seagull in the dungeon by itself, not so much.

A semi-smart NPC might assume the creature is just a familiar of a wizard. If the NPC just auto-finds you and knows you're a druid, the GM is probably metagaming.

richard develyn wrote:

So what's a little bat going to do that's going to look so odd?

Sharp-eyed Rogue: What is that bat doing ? The hokey-pokey ?

Ranger with knowledge(nature): That's definitely not a normal mating dance or nesting behavior.
Wizard with spellcraft: EVERYONE GET DOWN !
Bat: (finishes odd behavior) *FIREBALL*

This is spot on for how that would go down.

Also why this tactic works best when you use it on uneducated NPCs, like the typical bandit for example. They might spot you, but not usually before the spell triggers.

No matter what form you're in, if someone sees you while you're casting a spell, they get to roll a Spellcraft check. I assume that Spellcraft, as an art of casting spells, includes lore about "them druids taking forms of animals and casting spells".

Naturally, they must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast and that means Perception checks. You can always use your form to your advantage, i. e. take the form of a diminutive animal, use stealth, and cast away.

I'd give someone a Knowledge Nature and Perception check to spot the difference between a natural animal and someone wearing a "polymorph suit".

At what DC?

Am I right in saying that anyone that has polymorphed into some sort of innocuous animal, like a sea gull on a beach full of sea gulls, and is then using natural apell or something like it to cast spells, will be undetectable as such short of anything but True Sight?

I would say "no." Bear in mind that a full-on polymorph only provides a bonus to disguise skills, so it's possible for a sufficiently perceptive person to see the seagull and say "oh, that's Ted, but someone must have turned him into a seagull." The idea that I can tell that it's Ted, but that there's no way I can see Ted is casting a spell, seems .... odd. And the rules don't support it.

By the rules as written, there's not even a penalty to someone's Spellcraft check to see what you're casting. You're welcome to house rule one in, but that is a house rule.

LazarX wrote:

I'd give someone a Knowledge Nature and Perception check to spot the difference between a natural animal and someone wearing a "polymorph suit".

At what DC?

Based on the person's Disguise skill (depending upon how different the form is and how well you know the person), with a +10 bonus due to the magical effect. Polymorphing myself into a dragon is different than polymorphing myself into an elf, and I might not be able to fool my sweetie but could fool the barman at the Pig & Whistle.

Am I right in saying, though, that unlike Perception, Spellcraft is not reactive?

Perception specifically says that it is, so you, or the GM, can roll Perception (for you, if it's the GM) in response to circumstances.

If I'm right and Spellcraft isn't, then you couldn't use Spellcraft to, for example, get a roll to identify that one of those seagulls is casting a spell, unless you specifically asked for it.

Is that right?

richard

You need Spellcraft to ID a spell. Knowing that someone is casting a spell requires no check.

I houserule polymorphic effects in that while you may.notice.something odd "Errrmmm guys a straycat got into my pack and it seems to be trying to dip the quill in the ink well with its mouth" your not going to automatically know they're under a spell "Hey that cat mating over there is Tim's uncle Irving under a baleful polymorphic spell". The disguise check is only used if you want to make them look like a specific animal (IDing spells is another houserule I won't go into). Hmmm I really wish you hadn't made think about this as not only did I just have a disturbing idea of where a wizard got the bat guano for that fireball spell but I need to figure out if a hengeyoki (or other shapeshifter) has to spend a feat to cast spells in their animal form or if they should just get that ability automatically.

Disguise does mention that as long as you do not draw attention to yourself then no one get a perception check against you...it does mention people like gate guards and watchmen are meant to be suspicious of everyone and get to take 10 on a perception check to notice though

I would say spell casting in the open ALONE probably does count as drawing attention...casting in a large group of seagulls when you are a seagull wouldn't be enough for me unless you were close to the group

It's up to the GM as to what draws attention

Seagull #1: Screee ! Screeee !
Seagull #2: Squawk !
Seagull #3: Chirp, chirp, CAWWW !
Polymorphed Seagull: (while doing the hokey pokey) Ooo, Eeee, Ooo, Ahh, Ahh, ting, tang, Wallah-wallah Bing Bang *FIREBALL*

Seagull #1: Screee ! Screeee !

Seagull #2: Squawk !
Seagull #3: Chirp, chirp, CAWWW !
Polymorphed Seagull: (while doing the hokey pokey) Ooo, Eeee, Ooo, Ahh, Ahh, ting, tang, Wallah-wallah Bing Bang *FIREBALL*

That's hilarious...and about how is saw it going in my mind if someone were close enough to see it lol

Disguise does mention that as long as you do not draw attention to yourself then no one get a perception check against you...it does mention people like gate guards and watchmen are meant to be suspicious of everyone and get to take 10 on a perception check to notice though

I would say spell casting in the open ALONE probably does count as drawing attention...casting in a large group of seagulls when you are a seagull wouldn't be enough for me unless you were close to the group

It's up to the GM as to what draws attention

You do understand that for rules lawyer munchkins, your first five words of your last sentence are deadly poison? :) They're looking for text to bash their GM's with, not support for the notion that the GM actually runs the game!

Sad day when the GM doesn't get to be the GM :(