Sorry Mud, the wall is 1" high, meaning it reaches from floor to ceiling (2 meters).
mdt, you didn't answer my question about if it would take some roll or skill to make a wall appear 6cm in front of someone moving 40MPH (instead of further in front of them, or accidentally behind them)? Does that mean that no, no roll is required to do so? Can everyone with forcewall be this precise with it, or does Queenie have something in her build that allows it?
Everyone with a power can precisely place it along the lines they want. You don't have to role to hit your area of effect line at every hex along the way. A Force Wall is just a line of hex sides, and it's either on or off, it doesn't slowly build.
If it required a roll to place it, it would require an OCV/DCV check, and you couldn't abort to activate it. By the same token, you don't have to roll to activate your force field, or any other power unless you take a limitation on it.
Aborting to activate a defense, by it's nature, interrupts the attack. It would interrupt a ranged attack just as quickly as it interrupted a running speedster as it interrupted a punch.
Everything you said here is as I understand the rules as well: someone with a forcewall can put it on any hex boundary they want, and when it's done by aborting, it interrupts an attack. None of of that was what I was questioning, so I fear I wasn't clear enough. Let me try again.
While Queenie clearly gets to block the attack, and place the wall wherever she wants in doing so, how does she make sure she gets it there when Rocket's only 6cm away? Based on my (limited, and possibly incorrect) understanding of the rules, she's guaranteed to get it up before Rocket hits her, but I don't understand the rule that says she gets to make it when he's 6cm away instead of 200cm away (given how fast he's traveling).
In my mind, that's the variable worth rolling for. That said, at the risk of repeating myself, I'll look to you to adjudicate it. I just want to make sure you understand my question, and then I'll accept your ruling as DM.
I'm done arguing. Fine, you abort your attack mid attack to avoid the wall, even though you commited to the attack. Just remember, I'm going to let the NPCs abort attacks that turn out badly for them as well. Place yourself anywhere on the board you want now.
As to how Rocket would think here, he has a good bit of information already:
- He's tried to bust through these walls before and knows they're "like concrete".
- He's already down to less than half his STUN.Will he try to avoid hitting walls that pop up in front of him in the future? Most likely! I can picture exceptions, especially in life/death situations where he's inclined to risk more...but if he knows they're hard as concrete and that he's already pretty injured, he'll need a damn good reason to keep going forward. Let me know if you've seen something from me that seems to contradict that.
We've talked about him buying extra head/shoulder armor that only protects vs movethroughs (as an earlier build had). At some point maybe I'll go that route...but Rocket certainly knows he's not wearing any of that now.
As I've said, I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to understand. If this whole thing has been too frustrating and you need a break before replying, by all means take it. I wasn't frustrated by the gameplay but I confess I'm getting frustrated by this conversation too.
That said, when you're ready, I want you to explain how things work. When I've played Hero Games before, we've played that if one were running and saw something--given enough time--they could choose to change course. Sometimes there was clearly enough time and no roll was needed. Sometimes (e.g. flight with normal turn radius) reacting was impossible (so no roll could possibly help). Other times, it was a matter of reaction time and required a roll to react quickly enough. We might've been misplaying then...or you this may just be a grey area in the rules, where one needs to rely on the DM's judgement.
What I really want to know is what I should expect going forward. Under what circumstances (if any) can I stop running or change direction based on what I see, after I tell you my intended action? In real life I know that I can at least attempt to avoid sudden surprises, if I see them...assuming I react quickly enough. Is that true in game as well, and if so what should I know about how that works? (If I'm going to play a speedster in your world, I think that's pretty important to know.)
Thanks again.
Team, whether Rocket hit the wall or not (which I await mdt's ruling on) I'll still be standing and I have an idea for seg 12.
What if Aegis and Mud coordinate to bust down the wall? Rocket delays until after and then tries to grab Queenie and take her outside.
I'm not positive but suspect she's poorly suited against Blaze...and outside might be far enough from her paper that even the cops can handle her.
What do you think?
I think that's a darn fine idea.
Even if she put it up a meter in front of Rocket, as I said before, it would do little good.
(A) You already commited to an attack.
(B) Your turn mode only let's you turn one facing per hex forward.
(C) Your velocity was wide open.
(D) She has plenty of extra length to put Rocket in a U so he would need to come to a complete stop, turn around, and reverse course.
(E) The GM should not have to stop and explain how the bad guys powers work in detail every time you take stun. It's hard enough to put up a challenge for you guys without telling you the whole enemy character sheet.
I'm done I need a break.
Here's my take on the Rocket v. Wall thing: I think that it's a difference of Active v. Passive opposition alongside declared actions.
So, basically, if Rocket rounds a corner and he sees a wall, that's a passive opposition. The wall is there, it isn't moving, it isn't trying to trick him. It's always been there, and it isn't going to do anything 'tactical'. He rounds the corner and he sees a wall, and goes 'Oh Snap'. He can then try to avoid that wall by slowing down, adjusting trajectory, what have you. But this isn't that. This specifically happened when Rocket ran down the Rabbit Hole in the Midnite fight.
This is more driving in a deluge of rain when suddenly there's a truck in front of you that you didn't know was there. You could slam on your brakes, and Rocket's reaction times are great, but even if Kitty let you Decel 5", by letting you take Move-by instead of Move-Through damage against that wall, he's already given you that damage reduction... and probably then some. I think he was more than fair here.
To keep building on that deluge of rain thing: Rocket is running full tilt in a situation where he's blind a little more than half the time, and he -knows- there's a person who can suddenly drop a truck in front of you. That's an adjustment that you as the player should make to the situation. You shouldn't have been going full speed in a situation where 'suddenly truck!' can happen. You'll lower your damage by not going full speed, or you'll risk running into things going full speed because you didn't see them coming. :) This is doubly true when the person can literally congeal said truck out of 'thin air'. And she can do so with the accuracy and speed required to stop a bolt of lightning if need be, because that's how the rules work. (Though, she couldn't stop lightning due to her wall's modifiers.)
Next, is the stated actions thing: One of Rocket's vulnerabilities is that he commits to actions that he chooses to take when he performs a full-round action. If you remove that vulnerability because your SFX is 'I'm really fast', it just removes other people's capabilities to deal with him. You have to plot his full movement beforehand and then run through swinging. I get that you'd like to be able to abort the action that you're making because you have awesome reflexes, but that's already kind of accounted for: You go before they do, you go more often than they do, you literally run circles around them. Aborting an action happens instantly. This comes at a lot of cost: No ability to defend themselves later against other attacks, but it comes at the benefit of denying you your action in the moment. As a speedster you can use this to your advantage often. Because when you force them to abort, you'll likely go again before them. When you abort, you'll likely get a turn on or around their turn.
Plus, to reiterate: Kittiface already pulled your punch. Essentially, he went 'okay, you still go full speed, but instead of running headlong into the wall, you swerve and clip it, you take move-by damage, instead of move-through. To me, the only thing that realistically could have been changed here was if you went 'No, I want to run headlong into it and try to shatter it.' And I think Kitty would have been like 'Okay, but...' *dice* 'Rocket is KO'd.'
The same happened to Mud's Haymaker. Mud is free to hit himself harder if he wants to try to break through the wall (at least, I think he is), on the off chance he manages to break through it. But that's his choice. Again, Kitty opted to pull his punch because he realistically wouldn't be able to break through the wall. :)
He hand waved a bunch of stuff there and adjudication, in favor of keeping things going without a ton of explanation. We wanted explanation to better understand, and I think that more felt like an interrogation, since it was basically everyone asking questions at once. :P
But I also want to reiterate that we weren't really going 'but that's not fair, Kitty!' We were trying to understand the situation. :)
Yeah, I was about to chime in and say something similar - The wall was put up right in front of Rocket as a defensive measure, and was something he (even in his superspeedy thought brain) couldn't really avoid properly. It's literally Queenie going "Oh SNAP!" and throwing up a defense instinctively, which results in a forcewall "directly in your path". The mention of "mere centimeters" is a descriptive effect.
In game terms, she just put the wall directly in your path, and as your character is on a full-commit action, there's not really much you can do about it in game mechanics.
Pulse puts it more eloquently than I can at the moment, to be sure.
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And on that note as well, it was well-written that it was 'mere centimeters', because it does two things that the Fate system highlights that you should do, that I agree with: 1: Make it not your fault. 2: Highlight how awesome you are, even when you fail.
Queenie wasn't trying to summon it inches away. It's just that Rocket is so fast that she did so because the fiction demands it. If she summoned it two meters ahead, it doesn't fit from a literature perspective for Rocket to not have time to react in some way, but the mechanics and fiction force an explanation. So explaining that he almost made it past it anyway, but she just narrowly got it up is kind of the best of both worlds from a writing perspective. :)
^^^^^
YES. THIS. :)
Whether it was intended or not, the GM felt like he was being flagellated from all sides for being an *ssh*le GM...
Nope, not intended at all. :) I just defended my choices as things that I'd already stated that I wanted. And I learned from the actions I took and their outcomes as well! Namely, that teamwork is a very powerful tool, but the abort actions can wreck it pretty handily. :)
When I ask questions or make suggestions, it's because I want to know your thoughts on it, not because I think your thoughts are wrong. :) I'll definitely tell you when I think your thoughts are wrong. Promise. :P
mdt, I'm so sorry that you felt flagellated. I didn't experience anyone's comments that way, but it matters to me that you did.
I mentioned early on, but I'll repeat it since it's important to me: if you have feedback about when or how you like (or don't like) to get questions and clarifications, please let me know. I can tell it really seemed to you like we were complaining and/or trying to get away with something, when *I* thought folks were trying to collaboratively sort out some confusion and understand the game better. I know that writing is a poor medium to use, especially if one or more parties is frustrated. I also know that different styles work for different people and while there's not a right or wrong about it, it matters to me how people experience me...especially when they're giving generously to me (as any DM is, by definition)!
The game matters enough to me--and your happiness as a DM matter enough to me--that I'd be happy to find time to get on the phone in the future, if that's a better way to ask you questions. I find it to be a less likely medium to be misinterpreted.
At any rate, I appreciate you doing your best to answer my questions. Between what you + Pulse + Violet wrote, I understand what happened and how it works in the Game universe better now, which was my hope. Thanks for taking the time to talk it through.
(I still don't know if I understand the rules for moving attacks quite as well as I'd like for the future. My uncertainty may be exacerbated by the real life group I played Hero Games with playing it differently--and it seems quite possibly incorrectly--but I'm fine with leaving those clarifying questions to another day.)
For now, I'm resolved, unless others need something from me.
My main Q at this point is to Mud and Aegis: are you two up for cracking Queenie out of her nut on 12? If so, I'll do my best to get her out of the bank.
No problem, just a very very long week.
For future reference, if you're using winding trail, you are committing to a full phase attack, not a half phase. Which means you can't abort half-way through and do something else (like coordinate on a barrier that just popped up instead of the original target). Note that ALL of your speedster attacks are Full Phase, and using any of them commits you to a full phase action. That's why you saved points on the powers.
My main Q at this point is to Mud and Aegis: are you two up for cracking Queenie out of her nut on 12? If so, I'll do my best to get her out of the bank.
Of course. Let's do it.
Great. Posted.
I think Jester is up next (and Queenie has already used her seg 12 action).
Alas! I knew there was a very good chance Jester would go for me, and it would be guaranteed to put me under. I thought it was worth gambling that perhaps she'd go for one of the bricks who could possibly bust Queenie's shell...but assuming Jester could tell Rocket was pretty worn down, she clearly made a good call.
I considered just taking a recovery, but it would've had the same effect, since I wouldn't get it until the end of the segment so it would've ended the same.
Should I have run outside to get away from her while I took my seg 12 free recovery? Likely...but then I'm not sure Rocket would really do that. He's playing to win here, not playing it safe.
Anyway, I believe I'll be back up to -7+14=7 STUN at the end of this segment so I'll be back in motion again (at least until the next time I run into something or otherwise get hit by someone). ;-)
Don't forget that you can run outside and freely take a breather. :)
Should I have run outside to get away from her while I took my seg 12 free recovery? Likely...but then I'm not sure Rocket would really do that. He's playing to win here, not playing it safe.
^ I definitely considered it; I just didn't think Rocket would choose that right now.
That said, depending on what's going on in Seg 2, he might learn his lesson and head outside without Queenie to Recover, even if he doesn't see a way to get out carrying her. We'll see!
Pulse, I like your suggestions to Snap. I also wonder, could Snap follow through Rocket's suggestion and get Queenie outside (assuming Aegis and Mud bust the wall)?
I really feel like it we can get Queenie away from her paper, we've mostly neutered her...and even if she's still powerful out there, Blaze should be an excellent match for her as she seems undefended against energy attacks (and fire has the upper hand in the battle vs paper).
I'm more concerned that if we 'deliver Queenie to the police' things will get a lot more rough. I understand that Queenie is the one who put a card through bulletproof glass, but I'm pretty certain that Jester is pulling her punches as well - and not to mention, she could make the fight with the others pretty hellish while just avoiding us if we can't get them to surrender like we'd planned. And giving her friend to the cops pretty much probably turns off the surrender button.
I second rockets suggestion fwiw.
Cheers
Think I'm waiting Jester's 12 action, right?
Jester's 12 KO'd Rocket, Queenie burned her action on aborting to make the wall. :)
Ugh, sorry, I've been getting slammed with work all summer and this was a few posts to catch up on. (We've also got a wildfire 5 miles from my house and I've had like 6 nosebleeds this week but none of it's actually bad, just distracting)
Pulse, I like your suggestions to Snap. I also wonder, could Snap follow through Rocket's suggestion and get Queenie outside (assuming Aegis and Mud bust the wall)?
I really feel like it we can get Queenie away from her paper, we've mostly neutered her...and even if she's still powerful out there, Blaze should be an excellent match for her as she seems undefended against energy attacks (and fire has the upper hand in the battle vs paper).
Snap, just checking to make sure you saw this.
Totally your call but (Especially given that the cables are pretty strong) I think your best bet might be to wait for Aegis to team-punch the wall. If they take it down, try to nab Queenie and carry (or, if you need to) throw her outside.
I'd they fail on the wall, you can try to bust Jester's cable...or maybe just help take down the wall.
Can I see Queenie? I thought she was *also* hidden...
Queenie is behind a paper wall. Previously, we've used 2-3 characters to bust through it. It might be smart to help the other two to break it down, or it might be a waste to do so - there's no way to know without figuring out its HP/Defense :P
It's easy for us to get you all into position, Mud could easily lead everyone to hit at the same time.
That just leaves the question of if you want to:
A: Help them break the wall.
B: Wait until you see if they break the wall to do something else.
B1: Maybe grab Queenie if they do break it.
B2: If they don't break it, it's too late to help and you probably can't break it on your own.
B3: ??? Do a different thing. Roll perception to see if you can remove the images for a bit, and be a decider! :)
:) Does that help?
Alright. I can move back and prepare an attempt to grab Queenie if the wall breaks down, then (though I'm not in my grabbiest form)
Just a note, unless she makes her perception roll, she can't really see or grab Queenie. Hitting the wall she can do even if she can't see, but coordination can only happen with one blind wall breaker.
I posted this before, but will clarify : Those who make their -4 perception, those with non-sight targeting senses, can all coordinate with up to 1 blind character for team work benefits. You're basically letting the blind person be the 'alpha' and timing with them.
Good clarification (at least for me!)
Snap, it seems like your best bet is to roll PER before thinking too much more about what to do, since it'll really effect your options.
If you fail it, it seems the best option is something you can do blind. (Go for a wire that Pulse directs you to? Take a recovery? Change to a form you like better?)
mdt and others, what do you think about rolling PER on our behalf, and telling us what we see? It might be more work for mdt (and you already has a lot on your plate) but if that works for you it would certainly speed things a bit. You're certainly welcome to always roll PER for Rocket...or for that matter anything that you know I have to roll, e.g. Breakfall when I hit a wall.
Hitting the wall is MUCH easier than hitting a wire.
As to rolling per for everyone, it's up to you guys., I don't mind. I tend to let you roll your own rolls if possible.
Yeah, I know some folks really like to roll for themselves. If it has to happen anyway (saving throws, PER rolls), I don't mind in PBP since it can really reduce turnaround times. But I'm fine with whatever works best for others.
Can Aegis use her 'Metal Covers Others' to reinforce held objects, in addition to people? Like... a melee weapon? A chair? A desk? A truck?
I'd prefer the GM rolls anything that he would be waiting for me to describe the result. FWIW
@Pulse - Yes, but the only effect she'll get is that it gains armor vs damage, it won't do more damage. She might be able to cover up a plastic baseball bat and treat it as an aluminum bat or something but it won't add on 10 dice of damage, it'd add what a normal 'object of opportunity' would add (and not survive more than one hit with her strength).
If she wants to use that as the special effect for attacks, it would require re-doing her powers significantly.
Ah, no. I was just hoping she could pick something up, goldify it, and then hit someone with it and it retain its shape and everything unless she hit ridiculously hard and -then- broke it. :) I wasn't expecting bonus damage or anything, just 'Hit them with the desk, set the desk back down in perfect condition.'
As a warning I've a family vacation starting this Friday for 9 days. My posting will be spotty. Please not me as necessary.
Thanks
It's too bad Snap isn't responding now, since she's got Queenie literally in her hands.
That said, the plan in place was to try to force Queenie outside. At this point I'd suggest DMPCing her trying to drag Q out the door.
Toward that end...is there a mechanical way for others to aid her in that?
EDIT: about aiding...I realize Q will get to act soon if Snap doesn't move fast, so it's certainly worth Snap trying to get Q out the door unassisted right now, if possible...but I'm still curious about options for aiding Snap for future rounds.
You'd get to add your strength together, within limits, to prevent her from slowing her down.
Can Violet sense when someone in the link is KO'd or otherwise 'hangs up'?
Assuming she can, can Violet get LOS on Rocket from outside, to reestablish the link from her end?
Yes, and, if she can see him, yes.
Yes, please bot for Aegis? I am reluctant to do it because I don't know when she can post and when she can't.
As an aside, you've gotten me curious about the feint rules you use. I didn't find Feint in the core rulebook, and saw this thread discussing options for how to play it.
This is a low priority Q at the moment since it isn't my action this turn...but since we know that Jester's tough to hit, it might be good to know about for me or others going forward.
I usually do it as an opposed skill check (acting, bluffing, slight of hand) vs (perception, analyze style) using whichever skill/bonus is higher.
Cool, thanks. Assuming in the future I wanted to use Sleight of Hand to fake someone out on an attack, do I just roll it as part of the attack? Does it "cost" me something? Is there a penalty for missing on the feint?
I usually do opposed skill checks as a half-phase action (minimum), so it takes at least a half-phase to do it.
Vi hasn't done the scary girl friend thing, no. However, she has done the scary Vi thing. :) And it's actually more about Rocket's mind set than Vi's personality.
I am disheartened to hear that you're not enjoying the duo. :( I had hoped this would be a fun if somewhat frustrating fight. They aren't dangerous, just hard to take down. I figured that would be a nice change of pace from some of the other people you ran into.
Oh, I -have- enjoyed it. Don't be disheartened. :P It's more that their -mechanics- are frustrating, especially since we didn't understand quite a lot of the systems. The characters themselves are awesome, and once we better know the mechanics, it'll be awesome. :)
And don't you dare tell me they aren't dangerous, they pretty much OHKO'd Pulse :P
Don't take me super seriously on the 'not as much fun on this end'. My frustration (which is minor) is purely in the form of not really knowing what to do at all and every option having a counter from them :P
I am not 'frustrated' so much as acknowledging that some things are 'frustrating'. :)
This is currently #2 or #3 of my games. And it's really hard to compete with my magical girl game where I just summoned a pack of chesshire cats as a magical nuke against my foe. :) (Trust me, she deserves it. Don't you dare say no one deserves that)
Took me a minute to realize you were talking to Hotaru, there, and not me, when talking about not enjoying the duo.
I think they're great, for the record. They clearly know how to work together and are a good inspiration for the PC's to learn to do the same.
And yeah, she's done the Scary Violet thing (not Vi, never Vi) and I totally get that it's more about Rocket - he's going to have to get used to the fact that she trusts him and that sometimes grabby-hands happen in melee combat. She tries to get him to loosen up in the background, but clearly she needs to work on it more. ;)
I think he's going to have some psychological issues to work through to do grabby grabs on females going forward. :)