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It’s not about the Wizard specifically except that the Wizard has the most top rank spell slots to cast.
Sometimes, maybe, in some circumstances, depending.
It's the same old record, a hypothetical Wizard committing all their resources to maximise spell slots vs a generic alternative that isn't.
Unless Sorcerers and Oracles lose some spell slots and lose some feats, this simply isn't true by default and needs to stop being treated like its just a fact.
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It's not quite fair to devalue a Wizard's feats just because other classes have access to some of them as well.
So yes and no.
As character building tools you can't, it literally doesn't matter at all how many classes can take a feat if it's good for your character.
but if you're advertising 'cool things about the wizard' ... I think there is arguably some value loss when you're talking about just stuff a lot of casters can do. The tools aren't weaker, but the marketing value definitely diminishes.
It's not quite fair to devalue a Wizard's feats just because other classes have access to some of them as well.So yes and no.
As character building tools you can't, it literally doesn't matter at all how many classes can take a feat if it's good for your character.
but if you're advertising 'cool things about the wizard' ... I think there is arguably some value loss when you're talking about just stuff a lot of casters can do. The tools aren't weaker, but the marketing value definitely diminishes.
This is what I think punishes the Wizard the most. The marketing. So often the negative feed back and the things people ask for from the class are there, they just aren’t presented in a flashy sign. And some of the offering do fall very flat of what people want from them, (Form retention was a huge miss. One classes feats shouldn’t be flatly worse than another that offers the same thing).
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As far as "the genericness of Wizard Feats," I think it is probably best to think of feats like Reach Spell as metamagic feats that probably were invented first by wizards, but they are things that any caster can learn with enough time, so the really basic ones would end up becoming popular amongst other classes.
I fail to see how worldbuilding headcanon such as this makes the Wizard's feats any better. The bottom line is still that many of the Wizard's best options are available to every class, when other casters have plenty of favorites that are also unique to them.
While I agree that there shouldn't be a two-tier system where some feats are flat-out worse than others (though that's arguably been done already), I don't think that's the ask: I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like people are asking for a Conceal Spell+ feat where you get a stronger version of the same option. Rather, people seem to be asking for more Wizard-exclusive feats that also happen to be good. In fact, this could even be done with generic feats if the Wizard had the option to pick up the school spell and curriculum of other arcane schools, much like how other casters can opt into multiple subclasses.
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I don't know why the pro-wizard crowd keeps making the top slot sound so good when slots 6 to 10 are all good. Even lower level slots like level 3 for slow or individual haste is good.
Having one or two more top slots is barely noticeable, especially when those slots once chosen are locked in and can't be changed unless you take a single thesis that requires 10 minutes per spell.
The wizard needs to change spells just to keep up with the sorcerer by changing out to slot more of the same power spells the sorc calls upon multiple times while still having access to other useful spells including leaving spells like dispel magic at level 2 because they can make it a signature spell they height at will when they need it.
Whereas the wizard to use dispel magic must heighten it to level 9 as that level 2 dispel magic slot is useless to a wizard.
Thus it shows that even lower level spells in the spell repertoire are more useful to the sorc than they are to the wizard because the sorc can make them signature spells to heighten them to the needed level rather than have to slot them in the highest possible slot so the spell works against what it is being used against.
Banishment is another spell a sorc makes a signature spell. Then leaves it at 5th level in the repertoire for use with 5th to 10th level slots. If the wizard wants to banish, they have to make it a spell in their highest level slot for it to be useful. So they're taking a top level slot a sorc just keeps at 5th level and makes a signature spell making the sorc the more versatile user of banish.
The ability to use spells flexibly is far better for the sorc with their huge repertoire of spells that they can cast far more flexibly than the wizard not requiring them to have to slot them in high level repertoire slots due to how good signature spells are.
That's why I couldn't care less about the wizard having more top slots when it doesn't show up as a major advantage in the game because level 7 and 8 slots are just fine for damaging targets or using AOE slot or group haste or heightening spells to the right level you need at the right time without being locked in like a prepared caster with inflexible casting.
I think casters should benefit from stealth and deception when using their weapons which are spells. I've never been quite sure why they can't. I see no reason why a spell can't be cast quietly.
I agree, though I think such usage should come with a (small) penalty to the spellcasting roll.
I meant to chime on this a few weeks back, but never had the time. Still, don't think it's too late to revive this...
While I'm not one to discount a Feat just because other Classes have it too, I figured I'd focus on the Wizard exclusive ones. I'll preface this by saying flavour means a lot to me, and I don't mind spending Feats for flavour.
- Spellbook Prodigy: I can understand why folks don't like this one... it feels a bit tax-y. Still, I really like it. I like the Spellbook mechanic for Wizards, so I really like that you can make some Wizards better at adding to it than others. Plus, it has some fun synergy with a Spell Substitution Wizard... Learn the Spell in 10 minutes, be able to cast it in 10 more...
- Energy Ablation: Another one I really like. The idea that when you're throwing Energy around you can warp things to protect yourself from Energy fits my mental picture of a Wizard. What's really great is that it doesn't have to be the same type of Energy... you can hit somebody with Cold and protect yourself from Void if you want to. Yes, it's only Spell Rank points of Resistance, but it's only a Level 2 Feat, works just fine with Cantrips, and lasts until the end of your next turn.
- Elemental Resistance: This is an interesting option similar to Energy Ablation. Cast a spell with an Elemental trait, gain 2xSpell Rank resistance to effects with that trait until start of your next turn. The resistance is more potent, but throwing an Element against something that uses that Element is sometimes ineffective due to immunities. Still, this would be fun if you're dueling a Fire sorcerer who hasn't taken enough precautions against his own Element, for example. Still like Energy Ablation a bit better.
- Nonlethal Spell: What can I say, I love the notion that Wizards can Fireball a room and not kill anybody. I was really new to Pathfinder when I played my Metamagical Experimentation (Core Rulebook) Wizard, and I'm not sure if I had the Advanced Player's Guide or not. Regardless, I never swapped out my thesis Feat for this... and there were some adventures when I really, really should have.
- Call Wizardly Tools: I love the flavour of this Feat, but I gotta admit, I doubt I would ever find room for it on a build.
- Spell Protection Array: Another one I really like. Protect yourself or your allies (or both if you're jammed in together for some reason) from your specialty: magic. Compatible with Effortless Concentration if you get that far.
- Convincing Illusion: Adding Charisma to a Wizard build is challenging, but not impossible... and the notion of an Illusionist reinforcing the "reality" of their illusion is awesome.
- Irresistable Magic: Dry, yes, but I appreciate that when it comes to getting past innate magical defenses, a Wizard does it very well.
- Shrink Spell: This is an odd one. Should you fail to Counterspell a spell, you instead shrink the area. I have this picture in my head of a lightning bolt falling just short of the Wizard... Don't know if I'd take it, but I might slot it for fun with Experimental Spellshaping (assuming I took Counterspell.)
- Split Slot: A bit of welcome flexibility, allowing you to prepare two Spells in one slot and choose which one you need when it's time to Cast.
And now I've gotta go and I'm only up to 6th level...
I meant to chime on this a few weeks back, but never had the time. Still, don't think it's too late to revive this...
While I'm not one to discount a Feat just because other Classes have it too, I figured I'd focus on the Wizard exclusive ones. I'll preface this by saying flavour means a lot to me, and I don't mind spending Feats for flavour.
A good feat has flavour and is useful in reasonably common situations. Only two of these qualifies, the rest are IMHO trash.
Spellbook Prodigy: My experience has always been that obtaining the spell was the difficult step not making the Learn a Spell Roll. You can always retry after a level.
Energy Ablation: has the same problem as
Elemental Resistance: that being the energy type you want to use is typically the opposite of the one the enemy is using against you. In fact it is common for enemies to be resistant or immune to their own energy damage. Both these feats are a trap.
Nonlethal Spell: cute but knocking things out is easy enough without spending feats on it.
Call Wizardly Tools: not useful enough for even you.
Spell Protection Array: It works. It is just that there are better options than this action sink. I know the Protection spell isn't arcane, but spending a 6th level feat for what is essentially worse than a first level spell is inefficient
Convincing Illusion: This is the one I like because you can get it to work simply by using a moderate number of illusion spells. Its an effective option.
Irresistable Magic: Mostly only useful against monster with status bonuses - how many is that?
Shrink Spell: Counterspell is hard to do and boring to play. But this works even on a failure so OK I'll give you this one though - it is useful.
Split Slot: gives you an option that is tiny compensation for the disadvantages of prepared spellcraft.
I'm just not feeling it....
Non lethal spell is useful for when you are trying to knock out just one enemy, because spells usually have ranges that nonlethal strikes don’t (and don’t take accuracy penalties), but even more importantly, can be used to make sure your very big AoE spells don’t kill anyone that you aren’t trying to kill as well.
A lot of tables just don’t care about taking prisoners and being able to question them about challenges ahead, but that is a table choice and one that hurts wizards because questioning prisoners is the easiest way to get information/ one of the most common narrative tropes in the action/adventure genre.
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Also, I didn’t catch it at first either, but energy ablation no longer requires you to do the energy type you are gaining resistance to.
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Re: irresistible magic - almost all outsiders get some kind of status bonus to save at higher levels. The remaster dragon change makes arcane magic resistance a little less common, but at higher levels it often feels like only humanoid NPCs don’t have it.
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I think taking prisoners and interrogating them has great potential. Realistically, many monsters know the layout of the dungeon they live in and might be evil/cowardly enough to spill it if captured.
The big "if" is in whether the GM is cool with it though. I've seen a lot of GMs cramp up if you try this, because they feel it totally takes their pre-written adventure off the rails.
And if you think that through, it says something rather damning about "the wizard is the master of preparing ahead" - if GMs instinctively don't want you to know what's ahead because it would "ruin" the adventure, then this playstyle has severe handicaps.
Re: irresistible magic - almost all outsiders get some kind of status bonus to save at higher levels. The remaster dragon change makes arcane magic resistance a little less common, but at higher levels it often feels like only humanoid NPCs don’t have it.What percentage of published creatures/enemies have it and how does that vary across levels. Until we have the metrics we can't evaluate it as good or bad.
It's fairly common past level 10. You see it on dragons, outsiders, and some undead. I think it's a nice feat as it's a way to get a +1 DC that stacks with all other modifiers.
Energy Ablation: has the same problem as Elemental Resistance: that being the energy type you want to use is typically the opposite of the one the enemy is using against you.
You're thinking the APG version of Energy Ablation. The Player Core version allows you to pick any type of energy resistance you want. I gotta say, I love the idea of throwing a Fireball at a group of Frost Giants while giving yourself Resistance 3 (or more) to Cold.
Spell Protection Array: It works. It is just that there are better options than this action sink. I know the Protection spell isn't arcane, but spending a 6th level feat for what is essentially worse than a first level spell is inefficient
Comparing this Feat to Protection is really comparing apples to oranges. The Feat is 1 Action compared to a 2 Action Cast a Spell from a Spell Slot, so I'd expect the Feat to be a little less. In addition, it's only a 4th Level Feat, not 6th. Not sure if that'll affect your assessment or not.
What percentage of published creatures/enemies have it and how does that vary across levels. Until we have the metrics we can't evaluate it as good or bad.
I don't know about percentages, but my quick Nethys search suggests there's about 325 creatures out there, including some popular "families" like Dragons, Daemons, Devils, Archons... I didn't look into all of them.
- Advanced School Spell: Well, how good this is really depends on the School. I mean, I loved Vigilant Eye (now known as Rune of Observation) but that was due to the campaign I was in, where I had opportunities to use it. (Best long-term surveillance in the game.)
- Bond Conservation: Tricky to use, but Bond Conservation is one of the things that makes a Wizard a Wizard, and I have a fondness for pulling off things that are tricky.
- Form Retention: I think if I were to play a Wizard who likes shapeshifting, I'd like this one. Being able to extend a polymorph to ten minutes opens up a lot of utility.
- Knockback Spell: Add a bit of forced movement to any AOE spell? Why not? An interesting third action possibility IMHO.
- Spellbinding Speech: Man, I like this one. Shutting down Reactions with Arcana, even if it's just for a round is fun stuff.
- Scroll Adept: More spells! More! And you can give them out to others if you want to! Yeah, I really like this one. Had it on my 15th level Core Rulebook Wizard.
- Shared Focus: Give a party member a free Focus Point once a day. Not one of your Focus Points... just a free one that you create from nothing. Really party dependent, but a great teamwork Feat if you have a colleague that really loves their Focus Spells.
- Spatial Awareness: This is fun. Another campaign dependent Feat I think, but I love the notion that a Wizard can be so in-tune to a form of magic (in this case teleportation) that they can do interesting things.
- Clever Counterspell: Man, I love this Feat. Allow me to explain: I love Counterspelling. The idea of spending a Reaction (or, with this Feat, a Free Action and a Reaction) to possibly completely derail a Cast a Spell is great. I keep hearing Christopher Lambert as Rayden saying "I don't think so." Plus, I've always believed that any reasonable GM would allow Dispel Magic to counterspell anything with this Feat (as long as it matches the requirements, naturally.)
- Forcible Energy: Another fun teamwork Feat. If every Martial in your party has a Flaming Rune, why not spend an Action to give a target Weakness 5 (Fire)?
- Keen Magical Detection: I can't say this Feat is to my personal taste, but a free Initiative re-roll is not a bad thing.
- Redirect Teleportation: I think this one is a little too niche even for me, but the notion of someone with Flicker being redirected to a really bad spot (say, in front of the party Barbarian who's next on the initiative order) has definite appeal.
Forcible energy is massively under rated, for sure. And I also love clever counterspell and have seen it used very well.
form retention though is just a cruel, cruel joke of a feat. Why? If you quad MC’d into Druid and taken untamed form, at 8th level you can take Form Control and then do the exact same thing, with a focus spell instead of a spell slot, and it will last 6 times longer. I was shocked to see it make the remastered jump without change and don’t understand why it wasn’t just dropped if it wasn’t going to get fixed. A level 4 Druid feat should not be exponentially just better than a level 8 wizard feat.
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Forcible energy is massively under rated, for sure. And I also love clever counterspell and have seen it used very well.
form retention though is just a cruel, cruel joke of a feat. Why? If you quad MC’d into Druid and taken untamed form, at 8th level you can take Form Control and then do the exact same thing, with a focus spell instead of a spell slot, and it will last 6 times longer. I was shocked to see it make the remastered jump without change and don’t understand why it wasn’t just dropped if it wasn’t going to get fixed. A level 4 Druid feat should not be exponentially just better than a level 8 wizard feat.
I guess the feat is for Wizards that do not want to spend the feats and stat boosts on the dedication and the Druid feat.
I do not mind a level 4 feat for Druids specialized in Shapechanging being better than a level 8 feat any Wizard can take.
That said, I could see it as a level 6 feat.
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Forcible energy is massively under rated, for sure. And I also love clever counterspell and have seen it used very well.
form retention though is just a cruel, cruel joke of a feat. Why? If you quad MC’d into Druid and taken untamed form, at 8th level you can take Form Control and then do the exact same thing, with a focus spell instead of a spell slot, and it will last 6 times longer. I was shocked to see it make the remastered jump without change and don’t understand why it wasn’t just dropped if it wasn’t going to get fixed. A level 4 Druid feat should not be exponentially just better than a level 8 wizard feat.
I guess the feat is for Wizards that do not want to spend the feats and stat boosts on the dedication and the Druid feat.
I do not mind a level 4 feat for Druids specialized in Shapechanging being better than a level 8 feat any Wizard can take.
That said, I could see it as a level 6 feat.
If it were only the case that the Druid feat was better because untamed form is automatically heightened to max rank and only cost focus spells, I too would be fine with the disparity. But Form Retention only lasting 10 minutes (costing a slot 2 ranks higher than the spell will be worth), compared to Form Control's 1 hour is a pretty huge deal. There is no reason why Form Retention shouldn't last an hour. I am generally a huge defender of things wizard but this kind of disparity is why so many players are convinced that PF2 is designed to punish the wizard and make players not want to play them anymore. I have never seen anyone use Form Retention in play.
Energy Ablation: has the same problem as Elemental Resistance: that being the energy type you want to use is typically the opposite of the one the enemy is using against you.You're thinking the APG version of Energy Ablation. The Player Core version allows you to pick any type of energy resistance you want. I gotta say, I love the idea of throwing a Fireball at a group of Frost Giants while giving yourself Resistance 3 (or more) to Cold.
Spell Protection Array: It works. It is just that there are better options than this action sink. I know the Protection spell isn't arcane, but spending a 6th level feat for what is essentially worse than a first level spell is inefficientComparing this Feat to Protection is really comparing apples to oranges. The Feat is 1 Action compared to a 2 Action Cast a Spell from a Spell Slot, so I'd expect the Feat to be a little less. In addition, it's only a 4th Level Feat, not 6th. Not sure if that'll affect your assessment or not.
What percentage of published creatures/enemies have it and how does that vary across levels. Until we have the metrics we can't evaluate it as good or bad.I don't know about percentages, but my quick Nethys search suggests there's about 325 creatures out there, including some popular "families" like Dragons, Daemons, Devils, Archons... I didn't look into all of them.
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- Advanced School Spell: Well, how good this is really depends on the School. I mean, I loved Vigilant Eye (now known as Rune of Observation) but that was due to the campaign I was in, where I had opportunities to use it. (Best long-term surveillance in the game.)
- Bond Conservation: Tricky to use, but Bond Conservation is one of the things that makes a Wizard a Wizard, and I have a fondness for
I meant to chime on this a few weeks back, but never had the time. Still, don't think it's too late to revive this...
While I'm not one to discount a Feat just because other Classes have it too, I figured I'd focus on the Wizard exclusive ones. I'll preface this by saying flavour means a lot to me, and I don't mind spending Feats for flavour.
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- Spellbook Prodigy: I can understand why folks don't like this one... it feels a bit tax-y. Still, I really like it. I like the Spellbook mechanic for Wizards, so I really like that you can make some Wizards better at adding to it than others. Plus, it has some fun synergy with a Spell Substitution Wizard... Learn the Spell in 10 minutes, be able to cast it in 10 more...
- Energy Ablation: Another one I really like. The idea that when you're throwing Energy around you can warp things to protect yourself from Energy fits my mental picture of a Wizard. What's really great is that it doesn't have to be the same type of Energy... you can hit somebody with Cold and protect yourself from Void if you want to. Yes, it's only Spell Rank points of Resistance, but it's only a Level 2 Feat, works just fine with Cantrips, and lasts until the end of your next turn.
- Elemental Resistance: This is an interesting option similar to Energy Ablation. Cast a spell with an Elemental trait, gain 2xSpell Rank resistance to effects with that trait until start of your next turn. The resistance is more potent, but throwing an Element against something that uses that Element is sometimes ineffective due to immunities. Still, this would be fun if you're dueling a Fire sorcerer who hasn't taken enough precautions against his own Element, for example. Still like Energy Ablation a bit better.
- Nonlethal
My issue with these feats—and several other Wizard feats—is that the action and opportunity costs are quite subpar. In fact, almost everything about the Wizard feels situational or subpar; it often seems like a version equal to or worse than what a Sorcerer can do, or like something where an item offers a better solution.
To be specific:
- Spellbook Prodigy: It’s essentially *Magical Shorthand* that the player gets a level earlier, without the risk of losing half the value on a critical failure. Honestly, it always pains me to see a class feat that is basically just a skill feat with a minor upgrade. I know some people like the flavor, but mechanically, the cost-benefit ratio is pretty poor.
- Energy Ablation and Elemental Resistance: First, I want to say that I have a problem with the opportunity cost—specifically the action cost—associated with most spellshapes. While it might seem cool to spend a round with elemental resistance equal to, say, half your level (though it could be less, since the spell you're casting isn't necessarily your highest rank), *Elemental Defense* actually contains a trap that usually only experienced players notice. Newcomers might simply get frustrated, as the feat only works if the abilities or spells used against you share the same trait as your spell. But often, they don't. It’s not uncommon for a creature to deal fire damage without actually having the fire trait, for example. And to make matters worse, when they *do* have the trait—like dragons and elementals—they usually also possess resistance or immunity, making it pointless to cast a spell with that trait against them in the first place. Plus, if it’s a defensive spell like *Eat Fire* or *Fire Shield*, the resistances don't stack. All of this is aside from the fact that you are using your 3rd action for this—an action you could be using to move, cast a shield cantrip, sustain a spell, or any number of other things that are likely more interesting and compete with the action cost of these spellshapes, which only last for 1 round and cost you a class feat. To top it all off, these spellshapes tend to become obsolete over time; the same resistances they provide can be obtained more efficiently—and without an action cost—via items and runes. This makes them truly functional only at low levels, precisely when the value of the resistance isn't as impactful and the number of creatures dealing elemental damage is still small.
- Nonlethal Spell: It’s interesting, but it depends heavily on how the rest of the party handles enemies, the nature of the adventure, and even the GM. Do your allies actually care about keeping enemies alive? Are the enemies you frequently face NPCs, and does the adventure raise moral questions about their deaths? Or are you fighting hordes of undead and constructs against which nonlethal damage doesn't even work? Perhaps you're facing animals or beasts—creatures most people don't care about keeping alive. Furthermore, some GMs (like the one running two of my weekly games) simply allow players to choose not to kill a specific creature, applying the "dying" rules instead and letting players attempt to stabilize it. (Granted, this still involves risk and action costs, but it’s a viable alternative to burning actions on a spellshape just to make a spell deal nonlethal damage.) And, of course, there's the fact that if a creature is at full health, you usually don't care about dealing nonlethal damage; you typically save that option for when the creature is already sufficiently wounded. It’s not bad, but it is situational, and depending on your build, you might have other alternatives.
- Call Wizardly Tools: If you’ve been captured, thrown in a cell, and had your spellbook confiscated, this could be useful. Ultimately, however, it’s a highly situational class feat that exists to solve a problem most other spellcasters simply don’t have.
- Spell Protection Array is one of the few truly interesting feats exclusive to the wizard. I just don’t understand the point of Sustaining an ability that costs an action but no other resources. Perhaps for when you pick up Effortless Concentration? But by level 16, you likely have better things to Sustain than a mere +1 to saves against spells in a small area—a bonus that might even conflict with other sources of status bonuses to saves.
- Convincing Illusion: As others have pointed out, it has poor synergy with the class; while usable, it essentially forces you to invest in Deception and Charisma almost exclusively for this purpose.
- Irresistible Magic: This is more interesting than many people think at mid-to-high levels, where you encounter creatures and NPCs with bonuses to saving throws against magic. The problem, as has been pointed out, is that the penalty doesn't scale and competes with the Sorcerer's focus spell, which *does* scale and works against all enemies, regardless of whether they have magic-related saving throw bonuses.
- Shrink Spell: As others have noted, the issue is its reliance on the "counteract" system—which is difficult to use effectively—combined with the fact that it requires enemies to be positioned at the very edge of the AoE. This makes it highly situational and likely to work only once (after that, enemies will be careful to avoid standing on the edge of AoE effects).
- Split Slot: This is a classic example of a lackluster Wizard solution. It is a feat designed to fix a problem the class creates for itself: the inflexibility of the prepared spellcasting system.
Energy Ablation: has the same problem as Elemental Resistance: that being the energy type you want to use is typically the opposite of the one the enemy is using against you.You're thinking the APG version of Energy Ablation. The Player Core version allows you to pick any type of energy resistance you want. I gotta say, I love the idea of throwing a Fireball at a group of Frost Giants while giving yourself Resistance 3 (or more) to Cold.
Spell Protection Array: It works. It is just that there are better options than this action sink. I know the Protection spell isn't arcane, but spending a 6th level feat for what is essentially worse than a first level spell is inefficientComparing this Feat to Protection is really comparing apples to oranges. The Feat is 1 Action compared to a 2 Action Cast a Spell from a Spell Slot, so I'd expect the Feat to be a little less. In addition, it's only a 4th Level Feat, not 6th. Not sure if that'll affect your assessment or not.
What percentage of published creatures/enemies have it and how does that vary across levels. Until we have the metrics we can't evaluate it as good or bad.I don't know about percentages, but my quick Nethys search suggests there's about 325 creatures out there, including some popular "families" like Dragons, Daemons, Devils, Archons... I didn't look into all of them.
...
- Advanced School Spell: Well, how good this is really depends on the School. I mean, I loved Vigilant Eye (now known as Rune of Observation) but that was due to the campaign I was in, where I had opportunities to use it. (Best long-term surveillance in the game.)
- Bond Conservation: Tricky to use, but Bond Conservation is one of the things that makes a Wizard a Wizard, and I have a fondness for
Regarding the Rune of Observation: Honestly, for a wizard, the real benefit of clairvoyance magic is precisely the ability to gather information on enemies and swap in specific spells to counter them. Without the ability to ignore line of sight and line of effect, the spell becomes extremely limited; it’s basically relegated to guarding an area, since even gathering information is difficult—you’d need the Read Lips feat for that.
- Bond Conservation: This feature is a real pain to use. Under the Drain Bonded Item rule, you must have already cast a spell of your third-highest rank or lower that day. Unless you’re using a heightened spell that is viable at that rank, you have to use Drain Bonded Item to cast a spell. The spell itself can’t take more than two actions to cast if you want a final action left over to use with Bond Conservation. That’s too many requirements, limiting its utility in many situations. It’s not a bad feat to have, but it’s one of the most overrated feats I know.
- Form Retention: Sorry, but what use is a Battle Form cast at two ranks lower? Just to take more of a beating? It might make some sense if it worked with *Pest Form*, but no—it has to be a 1-minute Battle Form: a form threatening enough that enemies can't ignore it, yet too weak to be useful in combat. It’s the kind of useless feat that solves absolutely nothing.
- Knockback Spell: This is a spellshape that can be situationally useful for Shoving enemies into dangerous spots, or moving them closer to or further away from a creature. But it depends on the situation, positioning, size, location, and the type of AoE used. And, like most other spellshapes, it requires an action—an action that might be better spent on something else. But what really bothers me about this feat is its level; ...for a spellshape that isn't much more useful than a level 1 spellshape to have a level 8 prerequisite.
- Spellbinding Speech: Another example of how poor the wizard's feat selection is. This thing requires *Expert* proficiency in Performance! Not just Trained—Expert; you actually have to invest in Performance as a wizard! Damn! Canceling an opponent's reaction is cool, but—aside from that stupid prerequisite—the opponent needs to understand you (i.e., speak your language) to even make the Arcana check. In other words, you need to invest heavily in two skills—and while at least one is actually useful for a wizard, it doesn't change the fact that it requires investment in two skills just to stop the target from using reactions until the start of your next turn. That means if you want to use it to prevent a reaction against yourself, you have to use it as your first action, because by the next turn, the window is gone. And whether it works or not, the enemy becomes immune to it. Then people wonder why so many say the wizard's feat list is garbage.
- Scroll Adept: Not bad; it gives the wizard a bit of that Scroll Trickster/Thaumaturge vibe. The problem is the feat's level requirement is too high. Remember, the witch gets Cauldron at level 1 to do something similar with potions. It’s still a worthwhile feat, but in my opinion, it’s at the wrong level; it should be a level 6 feat.
- Shared Focus: This is one of the rare wizard feats I consider genuinely good, especially in groups with many allies who use focus spells. I just find it curious that the wizard—a class that doesn't gain a third focus point without using archetypes—can give focus points to others.
- Clever Counterspell: 12 levels, 3 feats, and a spellbook stuffed with as many spells as possible, just so the wizard can finally have a decent counterspell. And yet, executing this move is complicated. If you have the spell prepared, great—you don't even need this feat; if you don't, you have to succeed on a check to Identify Magic, search your list for a spell with the same trait as the one being cast (or an obviously opposing one, if you can convince your GM), and *then* finally attempt a counteract check to see if you can nullify the spell. I still think it's a cool feat, but it's overly clunky.
- Forcible Energy: Another one of the few cool feats. But it requires teamwork to be worthwhile; otherwise, it’s essentially half a *Sorcerous Potency* (actually, it’s more like *Blood Magic*, since it only affects a single target) that costs an action you could have used to Sustain a powerful spell. It can be excellent if you coordinate well with allies to deal the same damage type—causing everyone to stack the same weaknesses—especially if there’s an alchemist in the party or if the party is large.
- Keen Magical Detection: Good, but highly situational.
- Redirect Teleportation: Interesting, but even more situational and costly.
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I'd care a lot more about forcible energy if witch's elemental betrayal hex didn't exist. Same action cost, available as early as level 4, scales higher (5 at 13, 6 at 17), progresses focus point count, doesn't lock you into an elemental spell and can actually be cast before one so you can benefit from the weakness twice (on cast and the following turn even w/o sustain). I guess being level 12 feat is what allows you to use it from 500ft away with artillery spells, but somehow I don't find that particularly valuable.
Convincing illusion is a great feat for an aiuvarin wis or cha caster though. Easy to poach at 9,10,12 with multitalented if you're so inclined.
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First, I want to say that I have a problem with the opportunity cost—specifically the action cost—associated with most spellshapes. ... All of this is aside from the fact that you are using your 3rd action for this—an action you could be using to move, cast a shield cantrip, sustain a spell, or any number of other things that are likely more interesting and compete with the action cost of these spellshapes, which only last for 1 round and cost you a class feat.
Well, one of the things I like about Spellshapes is that it adds to the interesting (and, IMHO, useful) things I can do with that third Action... or sometimes fourth, if Haste comes into play. I mean, yes, casting Shield is great. I usually have Shield prepared on my spellcasters somehow (my old L15 had it through a Staff of Abjuration for example.) But hey, if you're not being pressed (and that happened a number of times) casting Shield is a bit of a waste. As for moving, well, sometimes you neither need nor want to move. Sustaining spells is fine... if you have a spell going to sustain, which is not always the case. Wizards don't have a lot more uses for that 3rd Action, unless you go for something like a Bow Wizard (good strategy if that appeals to you, definitely.)
I'm a fan of Spellshapes... Experimental Spellshaping is my Thesis of choice, actually, because it's been a lot of fun for me.
To top it all off, these spellshapes tend to become obsolete over time; the same resistances they provide can be obtained more efficiently—and without an action cost—via items and runes. This makes them truly functional only at low levels, precisely when the value of the resistance isn't as impactful and the number of creatures dealing elemental damage is still small.
Just to clarify: this is about Energy Ablation... I agree with your concerns regarding Elemental Defense.
Yes, as time passes, you're going to pick up defenses against energy. Energy-Resistant and Greater Energy-Resistant are popular Runes. Charm of Resistance is a thing. I'm sure there's others. Thing is though, you will gain such items slowly, and most will not have protections against any energy type. Two or three, probably.
Spell Protection Array is one of the few truly interesting feats exclusive to the wizard. I just don’t understand the point of Sustaining an ability that costs an action but no other resources. Perhaps for when you pick up Effortless Concentration? But by level 16, you likely have better things to Sustain than a mere +1 to saves against spells in a small area—a bonus that might even conflict with other sources of status bonuses to saves.Really, it all depends. I agree, the Sustain is obviously meant to be compatible with Effortless Concentration... and that's not a bad thing. Yes, by the time 16th level comes along, there are probably going to be better things to sustain than Spell Protection Array... if you put them up. Suppose Round 1 you throw up a Rank 6 Haste to get the party moving. For your 3rd Action, you use Spell Protection Array. Round 2 comes along... Free Sustain, at the start of your turn. So maybe you put up a Sustain Spell. But maybe you don't. If you don't, well hey, SPA is still up and running and might be useful. As for conflicting with other Status Bonuses... well, a straight up Status Bonus vs Magic is a pretty broad Status Bonus. Most others are narrower. So it might still apply regardless.
- Irresistible Magic: This is more interesting than many people think at mid-to-high levels, where you encounter creatures and NPCs with bonuses to saving throws against magic. The problem, as has been pointed out, is that the penalty doesn't scale and competes with the Sorcerer's focus spell, which *does* scale and works against all enemies, regardless of whether they have magic-related saving throw bonuses.
Yes, Ancestral Memories is a fantastic Focus Spell, and is more broadly applicable in many ways. Still, there's two things it's not great at: groups and long fights. If I'm faced with a bunch of Vordines, Irresistible Magic will likely help more, because all of them get their save reduced. As for long fights... well, that one's fairly obvious. So I think there's still a place for this Feat.
Regarding the Rune of Observation: Honestly, for a wizard, the real benefit of clairvoyance magic is precisely the ability to gather information on enemies and swap in specific spells to counter them. Without the ability to ignore line of sight and line of effect, the spell becomes extremely limited; it’s basically relegated to guarding an area, since even gathering information is difficult—you’d need the Read Lips feat for that.
It's a bit better than you think. You only need line of sight when you create the sensor... after that, you can go anywhere you want (up to 500 feet. Oddly, Nethys hasn't included the Range.) So that's what I would do... sneak around, set the sensor, retreat to somewhere a bit more secluded. The best time I ever used it was right above the desk of a base commander. Everything he read, I could read. I gotta say, I wish I had thought of Read Lips though. That would've been cool.
- Bond Conservation: This feature is a real pain to use. Under the Drain Bonded Item rule, you must have already cast a spell of your third-highest rank or lower that day. Unless you’re using a heightened spell that is viable at that rank, you have to use Drain Bonded Item to cast a spell. The spell itself can’t take more than two actions to cast if you want a final action left over to use with Bond Conservation. That’s too many requirements, limiting its utility in many situations. It’s not a bad feat to have, but it’s one of the most overrated feats I know.
I'm not quite following you here. When you gain the Feat, you have 4th Rank Spells. So, to take advantage of this, you need to have previously cast either a 4th Rank spell alongside a 1st or 2nd Rank, or you need to have cast a 3rd Rank and a 1st Rank. So yeah, probably something you're going to use during the 2nd encounter of the day, or maybe even later. Complicated, yes... but I don't really mind complicated.
- Spellbinding Speech: Another example of how poor the wizard's feat selection is. This thing requires *Expert* proficiency in Performance! Not just Trained—Expert; you actually have to invest in Performance as a wizard! Damn!
You know, I honestly hadn't noticed that. I wonder if it's an error? Expert in Arcana I can see... Expert in Performance makes no sense.
- Scroll Adept: Not bad; it gives the wizard a bit of that Scroll Trickster/Thaumaturge vibe. The problem is the feat's level requirement is too high. Remember, the witch gets Cauldron at level 1 to do something similar with potions. It’s still a worthwhile feat, but in my opinion, it’s at the wrong level; it should be a level 6 feat.
Well, under its restrictions, the earliest the Feat could work is 8th, when you could create a 1st Rank Scroll & a 2nd Rank Scroll. So 10th isn't too far off I think. Cauldron isn't a great comparison IMHO: spell scrolls are quite a bit more powerful than potions and oils.
- Clever Counterspell: 12 levels, 3 feats, and a spellbook stuffed with as many spells as possible, just so the wizard can finally have a decent counterspell. And yet, executing this move is complicated. If you have the spell prepared, great—you don't even need this feat; if you don't, you have to succeed on a check to Identify Magic, search your list for a spell with the same trait as the one being cast (or an obviously opposing one, if you can convince your GM), and *then* finally attempt a counteract check to see if you can nullify the spell. I still think it's a cool feat, but it's overly clunky.
It's not quite as bad as all that. Takes a bit of getting used to, but once you do it can be pretty smooth.
1) You have the Spell currently Prepared. Well, you automatically Recognize it, great! The advantage of this Feat is that you don't necessarily have to expend that Spell to Counter. You could substitute another, particularly if you want to have the higher Rank advantage.
2) You had the Spell prepared. Pretty much the same as above, except that you have to substitute.
3) You have Master in Arcana, and this isn't a 7th Rank Spell. You automatically Recognize the Spell.
4) You have Legendary in Arcana: You automatically Recognize the spell.
So, if it's Arcane (and the GM needs to tell you this right at the start), most of the time the GM is just going to tell you the Spell. You might roll Arcana to see if you Crit Succeed and get the little bonus to the save, but that's about it.
- Keen Magical Detection: Good, but highly situational.
It's a free Initiative "roll twice and keep the better." That's a pretty common situation.
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I cannot believe some are making Forcible Energy seem under-rated or good. It is not.
Why?
1. Is the spell you can launch to match the majority of energy property runes in your party even going to do the most damage? Are you going to cast a lvl 6 fireball to stick 5 energy weakness on one target doing 12d6 damage for an average of 42 instead of a level 6 chain lightning for 8d12 damage for an average of 52?
When making the decision, the size of the group matters, any weaknesses or resistances it has in the first place, and the composition of the party runes.
This all adds up to rarely making this a positive use of the 1 action to land it. You'd be better off using the more powerful spell and launching your own weapon attack.
2. Opportunity cost of another feat. You take this feat instead of something better at level 12 like Quickened Casting or Scroll Adept, whichever one isn't taken at level 10. Or a better feat from an archetype.
3. Weaknesses don't double on a crit.
4. It only lasts until the end of your next turn. That means it will only last for a few hits whether the target lives or dies quick. The target could die on the next martial's turn doing next to nothing.
Forcible Energy is another feat where the juice is not worth the squeeze, especially when there are so many better options at level 12.
It is humorous to me to try to bash Forcible energy by suggesting that 10 less damage on the 2 action spell is a big deal when that is covered with only 2 instances of damage from the rest of the party. Will there be times where your wizard has better things to do? Of course! That doesn’t make it a bad feat. Quickened casting is once a day. A party built to exploit a chosen damage weakness will easily do 20 or much more points of damage by the time the weakness goes away.
It might not be for all parties but its value to a party working together is huge.
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It is humorous to me to try to bash Forcible energy by suggesting that 10 less damage on the 2 action spell is a big deal when that is covered with only 2 instances of damage from the rest of the party. Will there be times where your wizard has better things to do? Of course! That doesn’t make it a bad feat. Quickened casting is once a day. A party built to exploit a chosen damage weakness will easily do 20 or much more points of damage by the time the weakness goes away.
It might not be for all parties but its value to a party working together is huge.
I listed multiple reasons why it not good. It's not just the 10 points from the spell difference.
On multiple targets, it's a waste of time to add a 5 weakness to a single target.
On a single target, you can do more damage than forcible energy by using your own weapon.
Forcible Energy has a short duration and is a feat that doesn't stack up as a competitive option.
If you enjoy it, go ahead and use it. I would not ever recommend it as a good feat. It's not competitive. There are better options for a level 12 feat. No one at my table has ever taken it because they know it is not a competitive option and they can find far, far better options for feats at level 12.
Anyone reading this thread looking for good options for the wizard at level 12 should seek out better options. They exist and provide better one action options than Forcible Energy.
I cannot believe some are making Forcible Energy seem under-rated or good. It is not.
Why?
1. Is the spell you can launch to match the majority of energy property runes in your party even going to do the most damage? Are you going to cast a lvl 6 fireball to stick 5 energy weakness on one target doing 12d6 damage for an average of 42 instead of a level 6 chain lightning for 8d12 damage for an average of 52?
A full caster has to expect the party will want to go go go until all her top two ranks of spells are depleted (at least). And the Wizard is a prepared caster, so you know exactly what spells you're going to cast during a day. Thus the only thing you need to do to make this feat useful is to match it up to any one (or two, or three) of your high rank energy spells, and then you wait until the best time to cast it. No, it's not always going to be something you'll be able to use on the first round of the first combat of the day, that would be highly coincidental. But you will probably get at least 1-3 uses out of it every day. Combat one? Have some electricity weakness to with my Chain. Combat two, I'm outta Chain lighting but i have a R5 fireball, so have some Fire weakness. Etc.
If you find at level 12 that Forcible Energy is the feat you want to spend time making work, go for it.
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Regarding the Rune of Observation: Honestly, for a wizard, the real benefit of clairvoyance magic is precisely the ability to gather information on enemies and swap in specific spells to counter them. Without the ability to ignore line of sight and line of effect, the spell becomes extremely limited; it’s basically relegated to guarding an area, since even gathering information is difficult—you’d need the Read Lips feat for that.It's a bit better than you think. You only need line of sight when you create the sensor... after that, you can go anywhere you want (up to 500 feet. Oddly, Nethys hasn't included the Range.) So that's what I would do... sneak around, set the sensor, retreat to somewhere a bit more secluded. The best time I ever used it was right above the desk of a base commander. Everything he read, I could read. I gotta say, I wish I had thought of Read Lips though. That would've been cool.
But that is precisely the point of my criticism. You invest in a level 8 feat to gain a focus spell limited to very specific scenarios—spying on locations you already have access to. It’s not the sort of thing that comes up often, and at the same time, it’s a situation that standard clairvoyance already handles. The only real advantage is not spending a spell slot—something that effectively resolves itself over time, as the slot required for the spell becomes less in demand and the cost of the scroll makes less of a dent in your budget.
It is a classic example of the criticisms regarding wizard feats that I and others here often raise. They are often useful, sure, but they are also mediocre, situational, and/or become obsolete over time—leading you to retrain them for another mediocre feat or simply opt for an archetype instead.
- Scroll Adept: Not bad; it gives the wizard a bit of that Scroll Trickster/Thaumaturge vibe. The problem is the feat's level requirement is too high. Remember, the witch gets Cauldron at level 1 to do something similar with potions. It’s still a worthwhile feat, but in my opinion, it’s at the wrong level; it should be a level 6 feat.Well, under its restrictions, the earliest the Feat could work is 8th, when you could create a 1st Rank Scroll & a 2nd Rank Scroll. So 10th isn't too far off I think. Cauldron isn't a great comparison IMHO: spell scrolls are quite a bit more powerful than potions and oils.
Yes, but beyond the much lower level requirement and the ability to craft max-level potions, the Cauldron also has the advantage that you don't have to be the one to activate them; anyone can use any potion—even temporary ones—whereas temporary scrolls are restricted to spellcasters who have access to that spell (curiously, not necessarily from the same tradition, since items don't usually carry the trait of the tradition that created them) or who have the ability to trick the scroll. Anyway, we're getting sidetracked. As I said, my main criticism of this feat is that I find the level requirement too high; it competes with other potentially better feats, whether from the class itself or an archetype. But, as I mentioned, I don't think it's bad—just a bit poorly balanced.
- Keen Magical Detection: Good, but highly situational.It's a free Initiative "roll twice and keep the better." That's a pretty common situation.
Sorry, but I wouldn't call something that relies on the enemy carrying a magic item or being under the effect of a spell "common".
Besides, once again, it’s a feat with a very high level requirement relative to the benefit it provides. I know that rolling two dice and taking the best result looks really appealing to a lot of people, but mathematically speaking, it’s comparable to a +4 bonus (technically it’s more complex than that, but generally, it simplifies to a +4). I can't help but compare it to feats like Medium's Awareness, which requires only half the level, doesn't demand a specific exploration activity, and applies the bonus to the Seek action as well. Perhaps it becomes more interesting if your GM allows you to roll initiative using Arcana because you're using Detect Magic rather than just observing the battlefield; otherwise, I still consider it too costly and situational.
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My general impression of wizard defenders is that they cling so tightly to the wizard theme they love that they downplay the actual mechanics of the class's abilities—essentially arguing, "Oh, they aren't that bad; they can still be useful in various situations, and the important thing is that they look cool". This sets the bar far too low, potentially creating a misleading and frustrating experience for new Wizard players. Whether they have played other spellcasting classes or are adventuring alongside them, these players may discover the hard way that their class leaves much to be desired.
However, I cannot stress this enough: we are discussing a Pathfinder 2e class. In this game, there are no truly "bad" classes—only subpar ones—and, in my opinion, the wizard is one of those classes.
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I cannot believe some are making Forcible Energy seem under-rated or good. It is not.
Why?
1. Is the spell you can launch to match the majority of energy property runes in your party even going to do the most damage? Are you going to cast a lvl 6 fireball to stick 5 energy weakness on one target doing 12d6 damage for an average of 42 instead of a level 6 chain lightning for 8d12 damage for an average of 52?
A full caster has to expect the party will want to go go go until all her top two ranks of spells are depleted (at least). And the Wizard is a prepared caster, so you know exactly what spells you're going to cast during a day. Thus the only thing you need to do to make this feat useful is to match it up to any one (or two, or three) of your high rank energy spells, and then you wait until the best time to cast it. No, it's not always going to be something you'll be able to use on the first round of the first combat of the day, that would be highly coincidental. But you will probably get at least 1-3 uses out of it every day. Combat one? Have some electricity weakness to with my Chain. Combat two, I'm outta Chain lighting but i have a R5 fireball, so have some Fire weakness. Etc.
I don't understand. Do you mean you will cast Electric Arc spellshaped with Forcible Energy and hope you can hit the same target on your next turn with Chain Lightning ?
And when outta Chain, you will do the same before casting your Fireball ?
Or the other way around maybe, spellshaping the top level spell and hitting the target with the cantrip on the next round ?
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When the Technomancer hits Archives of Nethys in a couple of weeks there's going to be a lot apologies for their bad opinions in this thread.
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When the Technomancer hits Archives of Nethys in a couple of weeks there's going to be a lot apologies for their bad opinions in this thread.
I didn't want to derail the thread but yes, Technomancer in general, and Viper Technomancer specifically, eats the poor wizard's whole lunch and drinks their milkshake.
Very excited for technomancer, both in sf2e games and as wizard substitute id offer in pf2e. On the player side, I'm floored to be able to be a SRO mechanic again.
Just watched the ThabenU video. This is definitely my preferred wizard: tank mage subclass, summoning spell subclass that scales to a +3 bonus, gun wizard subclass, and super versatile scroll subclass is awesome. A spell cache with a school-like repertoire that you can use for spell substitution (paizo listens!) is the cherry on top! Honestly, most of technomancer seems like a very techy/sci-fi response to a lot of wizard complaints.
It's definitely a fun class and I can't wait to see players use it in my sf2e game, but at first blush it may overshadow other casters a bit, like wicthwarper. So, not quite the slam dunk wizard substitution I thought, but still a great addition to its respective system. I'll have to comb the physical book in a couple weeks to be sure, but yea, wizards are gonna let out a long defeated sigh looking at this one.
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Although the Technomancer isn't a wizard in the strict sense—thematically speaking—it actually does a remarkable job of showing what a wizard could truly be, both in terms of subclasses and feats.
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Sorry, but I wouldn't call something that relies on the enemy carrying a magic item or being under the effect of a spell "common".
Besides, once again, it’s a feat with a very high level requirement relative to the benefit it provides. I know that rolling two dice and taking the best result looks really appealing to a lot of people, but mathematically speaking, it’s comparable to a +4 bonus (technically it’s more complex than that, but generally, it simplifies to a +4). I can't help but compare it to feats like Medium's Awareness, which requires only half the level, doesn't demand a specific exploration activity, and applies the bonus to the Seek action as well. Perhaps it becomes more interesting if your GM allows you to roll initiative using Arcana because you're using Detect Magic rather than just observing the battlefield; otherwise, I still consider it too costly and situational.
While I ultimately agree that we put to much stock in initiative (I see initiative as a big circle and whoever starts the circle in round one is ultimately a small bonus for how much feat and items people seem to put towards it), I just can't stop myself from arguing with your point on magic items. Anything which uses a weapon past level two is using a magic weapon. Thats core to the system that the weapon users get stronger through magic weapons. This will go off and if it makes sense for enemies to be found faster because of detect magic (in range but not obvious to see) I think GMs should let the spellcasting tradition's skill be used for initiative, so this could be a big bonus to Wizards (even if it doesn't really matter imo). The situation is extremely common. It is defeated by enemies with "natural" weapons like Froghemoths.
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Anything which uses a weapon past level two is using a magic weapon.
Yet most monsters don't use weapons or armor, and some of them do, but many don't count them as magical (due to how the creatures' numbers are made, many of their stats use mundane items but with numbers equivalent to magical ones). So this is very adventure-dependent. If your adventure is focused on facing many NPCs that use weapons or carry magic items, this probably will be more common; if not, it will be way more uncommon.
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Anything which uses a weapon past level two is using a magic weapon
This is actually not true at all, and a casual read through NPC Core (or Nethys' Humanoids monsters) will provide you with plenty of examples of mid to high level foes without a single magic item, let alone magic weapons.
However, because the real breakpoint of when magical items become standard on enemies appears to be level 7 this means Keen Magical Detection should still work most of the time if you're fighting on-level humanoid foes. If you're fighting Troops (which never get magical items) or monsters (which basically never get items, but might have a magical effect) then the feat is much less useful.
This already makes the feat situational by default, but it's not the feat's biggest weakness. That would be the fact that it only works if the required enemy is within the range of your detect magic spell, which is 30 feet and never gets better.
My issue is with detect magic as an exploration activity is that the range is a 30ft emanation. The number of times encounters start because the two sides have gotten within 30ft of each other are pretty slim on my experience. Not that it never happens but that adds another filter between “this ability can be used” and “it’s going to be used in this encounter.” This is especially the case as casting a spell is loud so you are not getting within 30ft of an enemy without them knowing.
That is why I don’t really consider detect magic a very good exploration activity for general exploration. It is much more of a “do once every once in a while after already avoiding notice, then searching, then stopping and doing one last sweep of a room before moving on. I know exploration mode was created to avoid having to make these kind of granular, step by step routines, but some one speaking loudly enough to be heard at 4x the range of the ability being used is just not practical enough to be a repeated activity.
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On this initiative side tangent, I don't see the same value in winning initiative as PF1, especially for martials. You almost want to lose initiative as a martial so the enemy has to close on you rather than you close on it. Move actions reduce the actions you can take and if you go in first, you might be the one getting attacked by a bunch of monsters using all their actions or best abilities to attack you alone.
A lot of my players even if they win initiative do not like to close on enemies, especially groups of them. Now that monsters can just spend 3 actions to unload on you, having a group doing that surrounding you is not a great idea.
The TPKs we've had in PF2 is winning initiative and having a martial player charge into battle against something that rips the player apart. Monsters are way, way stronger in PF2 than PF1 compared to players. You have to be real careful getting close enough for them to unleash on you, especially groups of monsters. Even more careful if a caster or some low hit, low AC martial.
It's not bad to win initiative for casters who want to launch an AOE right off the bat or cast a protective spell or buff, but martials should usually slow roll into combat so they don't end up screaming, "Heal me or I'm going down" in the first round.
Seems to me that a smart martial character would have a ranged weapon for that start to a battle.
Seems to me that a smart martial character would have a ranged weapon for that start to a battle.
For many (if not most) melee martial characters, carrying melee and ranged weapons is far less effective than it seems.
For instance, a strength-focused fighter in heavy armor would typically see an attribute progression something like this:
Lvl 1: Str +4, Dex +1, Con +3, Int +0, Wis +1, Cha +0
Lvl 5: Str +4 (partial), Dex +2, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +0
Lvl 10: Str +5, Dex +3, Con +4 (partial), Int +0, Wis +3, Cha +0
Lvl 15: Str +5 (partial), Dex +4, Con +5, Int +0, Wis +4, Cha +0
Lvl 17: Str +6 (partial+apex), Dex +4, Con +5, Int +0, Wis +4, Cha +0
Lvl 20: Str +7 (apex), Dex +4, Con +5, Int +1, Wis +4, Cha +1
So, if this fighter swaps or draw a ranged weapon, they make a Strike using dexterity, resulting in a hit and critical hit bonus that is 3 points lower than that of their melee weapon. Over time, that gap narrows—dropping to just one point at levels 15 and 16—before widening again to a 2-point difference at level 17 and a 3-point difference at level 20. In a game with math as tight as PF2e's, that is a significant margin. That’s not to mention the additional cost of purchasing runes for two weapons (combination weapons do reduce this cost, but they also limit your options for property runes and the size of your damage die). However, it’s not really worth it when you consider that, once the enemy engages in melee combat, you’ll still need to use a swap action—which might even trigger a reaction.
So, except for characters like the rogue and swashbuckler, it is usually far more effective to simply Delay and wait for the enemy to act. In most cases, they will advance on the party; in the rare instances where they choose a ranged attack, it is better to spend movement actions to close the distance and attack in melee.
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I mean, a martial character could raise a shield or take cover and then ready an action to trip the first creature that gets close enough and then still have a full turn to do whatever they would have done if they lost initiative.
And if no one comes close because they see the martial readied an action, then that is just another round for casters to do caster things. I agree that moving forward into melee is generally a bad strategy, but that doesn't make it a good idea to waste three actions at the start of a combat.
Seems to me that a smart martial character would have a ranged weapon for that start to a battle.If they are not built for ranged, it is likely much better to Delay until the opponents come into melee range.
Yep. Not everyone is built for range and you don't want to be wasting actions to switch out weapons once the enemy closes. You want to be ready to use your big hitting abilities when they close.
I mean, a martial character could raise a shield or take cover and then ready an action to trip the first creature that gets close enough and then still have a full turn to do whatever they would have done if they lost initiative.
And if no one comes close because they see the martial readied an action, then that is just another round for casters to do caster things. I agree that moving forward into melee is generally a bad strategy, but that doesn't make it a good idea to waste three actions at the start of a combat.
They can. If they win initiative and have something else to do, can be ok. Winning initiative is not the "I win" button it used to be at all.
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Sadly, winning initiative is most important on casters to deploy buffs, debuffs, etc and they're the ones stuck with bad perception. Definitely the ones that most benefit from initiative bonuses and getting initiative into a scaling skill like stealth.
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Not if you are a wisdom-based spellcaster.
However, nothing stops a naked spellcaster with high dexterity from investing in stealth and using Avoid Notice to force a stealth-based initiative roll. With any luck, they might even avoid being spotted by enemies before acting.