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Just because someone is poor, or chooses not to like your product, or just doesn’t buy it doesn’t mean they don’t have a valid opinion.
So... people won't buy the product, experience it for free continuously, not contribute to its making in any way but can criticize it freely?
I get it for other things, but if you play something which you got access to for free, and then throw a fit when it isn't free anymore (It still is, only with certain caveats), and proceed to upend the makers of said product, I am really sorry, I don't see anything constructive there at all.
Of course it exists; you just have to remember that nothing is truly free. Anything free is paid for in some other way.
Even though AoN is free—featuring images and receiving rules updates relatively quickly, yet being neither a physical book nor a PDF—it drives sales for the system's actual books, supports games for players who don't own the full library, expands Pathfinder's reach, and attracts new customers to Paizo.
In other words, it effectively functions as marketing. And like all good marketing, it holds immense value that is hard to quantify—right up until the moment you stop doing it and suffer the consequences.
I don't think I've ever seen anything in any market as undervalued as marketing. When companies are doing well, they expect marketing to work miracles and generate quick, exponential profits. When companies are struggling, they cut marketing, viewing it as a waste; since the impact of that cut takes time to manifest, they only realize things are getting worse later on—and when they investigate, they discover the lack of marketing was the culprit.
And marketing isn't just advertising; it encompasses everything that helps maintain focus on your company and product. Often, the best marketing is the low-cost kind that people don't even recognize as marketing—much like AoN.
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Paizo COULD pull the entire CUP and make AoN impossible, and have been very clear they are not doing that.
I mean, they made it clear they would never pull the CUP after there was massive fan backlash after they DID try to pull the CUP.
Fan backlash is the only tool fans have. Being mad online and pulling their financial support.
I'm not sure what anyone else expects anyone to do when companies do things they don't like.
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Even though AoN is free—featuring images and receiving rules updates relatively quickly, yet being neither a physical book nor a PDF—it drives sales for the system's actual books, supports games for players who don't own the full library, expands Pathfinder's reach, and attracts new customers to Paizo.
Please give me some non-anecdotal evidence. I am not being dismissive, I have not seen any proof of this apart from "Oh, my table and everyone I know says this".
I could be completely wrong about this, I just want something that is concrete and in numbers.
Sorry, Steve, but don't be unreasonable. You know there’s no such thing as non-empirical evidence. Generally, the impact of marketing can only be measured to a limited extent through methodological surveys—and even those deal with market segments, involve margins of error, and remain subject to the subjectivity of individual responses.
But simply clinging to the stance that "no numbers means no evidence"—and effectively dismissing as worthless the massive volume of opinions on this forum and Reddit regarding the importance Paizo’s loyal fanbase places on AoN, as well as the personal testimonials from trusted people close to you who champion AoN as a key factor in choosing and sticking with Pathfinder over other TTRPGs—is basically ignoring a part of reality you simply don't agree with.
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Even though AoN is free—featuring images and receiving rules updates relatively quickly, yet being neither a physical book nor a PDF—it drives sales for the system's actual books, supports games for players who don't own the full library, expands Pathfinder's reach, and attracts new customers to Paizo.
Please give me some non-anecdotal evidence. I am not being dismissive, I have not seen any proof of this apart from "Oh, my table and everyone I know says this".
I could be completely wrong about this, I just want something that is concrete and in numbers.
Dismissing an enormous outpouring of "Oh, my table and everyone I know says this" really ignores the fact that more than many MANY hobbies or industries tabletop is a social medium. 99% of people play this in a group, and thus buy books.
AoN has contributed at least roughly $1,000 from me and my group (I can run the numbers if you would like) as when I was interested in what to run in Pathfinder off a vague interest I outright denied it because it was too expensive and frankly looked too complicated at a glance, found AoN, got into the idea enough off what I read on there to suggest crowd-sourcing the Roll20 Kingmaker $100 dollar package, bought heaps of books after figuring out what was in what book and even the difference in core rulebooks & splatbooks (was not previously particularly easy to parse on this website before) via AoN, moved to Foundry, crowd-sourced the $100 for Kingmaker again, bought every Foundry module as they came out, and attempted to buy books when we could afford to which typically we were as a group reminded by the rules going live on AoN that it was release day or else would've been very late on even purchasing the thing.
We are one group of under 10 people and know other tables that also very explicitly had a similar to identical path, the site works as effective advertising because it makes this system able to be parsed without spending an hour digging in PDFs and hitting CTRL-F looking for specific rulings or discovering that ruling that annoyed you was errata'd five months ago. It serves as effective advertising by keeping the average player, DM, and purchaser from being so bogged down by what they already have that they actually look to what is coming and get excited about it. God knows if they decided to rug pull (they won't) AoN my group would likely finish our campaign and begrudgingly move to a new system because it'd be a lot more of a pain to make a given party with free archetype than we would want in a quick Session Zero.
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A Constructive "Third Way" for Archives of Nethys and Paizo
(cont.)
If something like this came to pass, it would make my day. I don't need Paizo and Nethys to walk it back and pretend it never happened to earn my support back. I just want to see a resolution. Publicly. Multiple times I've seen these rigmaroles started during a stressful time for both parties, cause flare-ups, only to be half-heartedly resolved out of bitter exhaustion then never communicated to the community. I'd rather an openly positive relationship of 8 years not get soured because of a situation Paizo couldn't control and some fumbled business communications.
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Interesting.
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I feel badly... really REALLY badly, for everyone involved in these decisions.
I adore AoN. I use it while running and playing games all the time. It's a HUGE boon to me as a player, and a third-party publisher.
I adore Paizo. Full disclosure I used to work there and there are still a LOT of people there I think of as friends, so I am not unbiased in this regard. But I also love the company itself, and the things it makes. Including its community.
Your talks about the Diamond situation changed my mind completely. I began forgiving Paizo's decisions of the last few years. I really appreciated "Paizo doesn't like it either." When it came to that situation, product, money, I totally agree. That was something that really came out of nowhere and really does affect everything. I can't hold Paizo personally responsible for that when so many other companies were in the same boat.
The AON situation is different. It's a result of all that too, yes, but this feels more self destructive. Less unfair for everybody, more the seams are obviously breaking. I think about how passionate you are, almost tearfully so talking about these things, well, I can't tell you how emotionally taxing it has been to change my view on things, flip it around to be a supporter and to see these decisions and even worse responses as situations keep happening.
When I read lines like how AON is being allowed, guided to continue with CUP, a thing that was possibly getting changed not that long ago, it just feels ick, in a kind of way that feels inappropriate for how much AON has done.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs8fglh&page=4?Archives-of-Nethys-Paizo-Part nership-ENDS
I hope for response/clarity on AON's own statements that seem like they haven't really been given enough time, communication. That clarity would go a long way for me to accept this controversy too, but I'm not sure how many more I'm surviving before I stop being shocked and just start getting tired. The greatest spokespeople take personal burdens on for a company that increasingly feels like it might not do the same in kind, contributors, volunteers work doing what Paizo don't, every controversy comes with the same asterisks from the same faces. It does get tiring.
I wish I didn't feel this way. I wish this didn't happen. I wish, I hope. My tables continue, we just have unwanted window seat views of the Radiant Fire.
I appreciate what you got to say Owen. You've done more than most.
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@Owen: I don’t feel like you are arguing in the slightest. Merely offering your thoughts and insights. You are conducting yourself admirably and with respect, and under difficult circumstances given your history with Paizo and current friendships with Paizonians.
I always appreciate what you have to say, whether from an industry insider or a game designer point of view. I don’t always agree with you, but I respect your experience, and the way you communicate. Take care.
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Please give me some non-anecdotal evidence. I am not being dismissive, I have not seen any proof of this apart from "Oh, my table and everyone I know says this".
I could be completely wrong about this, I just want something that is concrete and in numbers.
Operating on the assumption of good faith, even with something as well understood as friction, it is incredibly difficult to quantify the amount of heat loss due to friction across every single component of a single factory, even if you can quantify each instance individually.
You can quantify the amount spent by each customer that joined 2e because of AoN similarly easily. Quantifying the *total* however is an impossibility.
The effect will be larger per player in countries which are not the US because shipping makes the subscriptions very crappy. As someone in Asia, the subscriptions are plain not viable for me - I buy exclusively PDFs and Foundry modules, but because I'm a GM, I need to know what my players are using. Sometimes, it's in the Foundry system. Often, because FVTT takes time to update too, I need to use AoN. Even when my players buy the source on their end, if I need to buy every single mirrored source on mine, that's unviable for GMing at all, and if I block sources I don't own, my player has less fun and they have no incentive to buy books unless I buy them first.
If there's PDF only subscriptions, the effect of AoN wouldn't be as large as it currently is on the other side of the globe.
Our FLGS used to unironically do bulk orders of books so we only need pay the shipping once (not just Paizo, WotC books as well). Unfortunately it, err... closed, so we're all stuck using digital sources now, minus some local authors that get the books since they... were involved in writing them.
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Even though AoN is free—featuring images and receiving rules updates relatively quickly, yet being neither a physical book nor a PDF—it drives sales for the system's actual books, supports games for players who don't own the full library, expands Pathfinder's reach, and attracts new customers to Paizo.
Please give me some non-anecdotal evidence. I am not being dismissive, I have not seen any proof of this apart from "Oh, my table and everyone I know says this".
I could be completely wrong about this, I just want something that is concrete and in numbers.
Maybe you should bother learning about intangible assets instead of claiming it doesn't exist because you feel like it doesn't, and just going off vibes from there.
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I did not see anything on the Paizo blog post, nor do far on these forums, about all 1e information being taken down from aonprd?
I still much prefer playing 1e over 2e, I bought heavily into it right before 2e was announced, but even owning pdfs and physical books, aonprd has been an indispensable resource for me, just as a way to easily connect the disparate information, AND to learn WHICH source books I need to invest in! (Especially for Organized Play)
Why is there no information about the blocking of 1e content on AoN? Do people just... not care? Is it an extension of the issues with Wizards of the Coast?
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I did not see anything on the Paizo blog post, nor do far on these forums, about all 1e information being taken down from aonprd?
I still much prefer playing 1e over 2e, I bought heavily into it right before 2e was announced, but even owning pdfs and physical books, aonprd has been an indispensable resource for me, just as a way to easily connect the disparate information, AND to learn WHICH source books I need to invest in! (Especially for Organized Play)
Why is there no information about the blocking of 1e content on AoN? Do people just... not care? Is it an extension of the issues with Wizards of the Coast?
Is that a thing that is happening? I know that the prd host is going, but that isn't including the pf1e aon page, just the old prd that paizo used to host that AoN has been hosting afaik.
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Frankly not really that interested in trying to kill Paizo. Seems to be what people on reddit and now on here are angling to try.Agree that some of the reactions seem pretty excessive, saying that as somebody who made some pretty critical posts in some of thr other threads. This seems like a pretty remarkable failure of communication and PR on Paizo's part, which doesn't inspire in me much confidence about the company's long-term ability to weather its current Diamond-induced crisis, but in actual pragmatic terms it seems to be just a pretty minor decline in quality of an accessory service. I struggle to see this as the sort of thing I would swear off buying Paizo books for as some here have threatened; but I think a lot of people (especially on this forum) are very invested in what they see as Paizo's moral character as an organization, which has a very sociopolitically progressive and pro-consumer image that Paizo has deliberately and diligently cultivated over many years, and perhaps consequently are actually more scandalized by the total PR failure than the blow to AoN.
This isn't restricted to this community or even the tabletop community in general, but a kind of cultural undercurrent shift in recent years (sorry I know my Gen X is showing).
For some reason, in recent years there's this odd idea that to get someone to listen, you need to be able to get some kind of leverage or threaten someone's livelihood. Which is why boycotts come up so much because that's the main leverage customers have over a company at all.
There's an (usually) unsaid assumption that if you don't do so, someone won't take you seriously at all, in the same way SMCiv2's Gandhi says their words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS, or C&C Generals says great leaders solve their conflicts with 'words' like Nuclear Missile, etc etc.
In one of my runs of AV, a player Readied the Twin Takedown action standing behind an NPC before attempting to talk to the NPC, which I naturally took as the start of combat, since nobody's going to accept having two swords place over your neck in reality as a posture for negotiation.
I don't know where this impression comes from, even though it's getting stronger every year. In the game I worked on people were also similarly threatening boycotts because of 'censorship' because some artists released final art versions that were different from the originals, some of which were ironically more revealing than the originals (those were promptly ignored, and everyone just kept harping on those that changed to more coverage).
The feedback people sent, I organised into reports, translated, and sent to them, with exact ticket counts and reference ticket numbers. I took an extended course (three years and counting now) in the developers' native language to better communicate. And it's not just about CS caring - the developers did pull through. The QoLs people asked for were eventually released, half a year after the original requests, because *of course* it takes time to make things work.
What I'm trying to say is, systems are systems, and people are people. Sometimes all you need is a well substantiated point, and to have interests aligned with people you're talking to, and they may listen, and change. There's not only no need to Ready a Twin Takedown, but it's actively harmful to do so because that places you on the opposite side from the person you're talking to.
And recently, it seems that's less and less understood. Like the only way anyone can ever change someone's mind is by force.
I get it, it works. But it's not like alternatives don't work, and I (ironically enough, using a half orc picture) would prefer not to always revert to the law of the jungle for *everything*.
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Just dropping in to give my own statement here.
While I am saddened by the news, as I do use AON constantly. I always have 4 tabs open in chrome on my phone: Paizo Forums, Store, Pathfinder Wiki and AON.
I even have the AON apps. It is a convenience I make constant use of.
I do understand that all parties (Paizo, AON, and the Community) have reasons and feeling regarding this issue.
So I just want to say, ALL MY LOVE AND SUPPORT TO BOTH PAIZO AND ARCHIVES OF NETHYS!
Yes times are tough but I choose to believe that in the end, things will get better.
Luvz & Hugz to all.
And may the Radiant Prism smile upon us all!
(P.S. I do not wish it be dragged into any debates, everyone is allowed to to feel what they feel and I just wanted to let my voice be heard. Let us all be the best Community that we can be.)
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The AON situation is different. It's a result of all that too, yes, but this feels more self destructive. Less unfair for everybody, more the seams are obviously breaking. I think about how passionate you are, almost tearfully so talking about these things, well, I can't tell you how emotionally taxing it has been to change my view on things, flip it around to be a supporter and to see these decisions and even worse responses as situations keep happening.When I read lines like how AON is being allowed, guided to continue with CUP, a thing that was possibly getting changed not that long ago, it just feels ick, in a kind of way that feels inappropriate for how much AON has done.
Why though? Archives of Nethys used to operate under the CUP. And honestly Archives of Nethys isn't the only important community tool.
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I did not see anything on the Paizo blog post, nor do far on these forums, about all 1e information being taken down from aonprd?
I still much prefer playing 1e over 2e, I bought heavily into it right before 2e was announced, but even owning pdfs and physical books, aonprd has been an indispensable resource for me, just as a way to easily connect the disparate information, AND to learn WHICH source books I need to invest in! (Especially for Organized Play)
Why is there no information about the blocking of 1e content on AoN? Do people just... not care? Is it an extension of the issues with Wizards of the Coast?
Far as we know, the PF1 version of AoN itself isn't impacted significantly. They didn't have artwork for it and all it's stuff predates the agreement. Nothing changes here so far as I can tell.
The legacy PRD specifically will no longer be hosted at AoN and at the moment we don't know where or if it will remain available (since part of this was that Paizo stopped hosting it years ago).
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After seeing more from both sides, as well as seeing some posts from former staff, I am heartened that it does not seem as bad as it first appeared. I still think it is a pretty lame situation, and it could have been handled much better, but it at least doesn't seem to be malicious or as shady as it did at first glance. I genuinely hope that is the case.
Though I would still love to see AoN fully reinstated somehow (or to at least get the PDFs WELL in advance and not just on the subscription schedule), I will be resuming my direct subscription. I love this game, and I don't actually want you (Paizo) to fail.
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What I'm trying to say is, systems are systems, and people are people. Sometimes all you need is a well substantiated point, and to have interests aligned with people you're talking to, and they may listen, and change. There's not only no need to Ready a Twin Takedown, but it's actively harmful to do so because that places you on the opposite side from the person you're talking to.
And recently, it seems that's less and less understood. Like the only way anyone can ever change someone's mind is by force.
I understand the point you're attempting to make, but don't you feel it's a bit disingenuous to compare someone pulling their financial support from a corporation to threatening someone's life with a weapon? Especially when later you admit that "systems are systems, people are people"?
I am not pulling a knife out on a poor Paizo employee's throat when I pull my subscription. No violence is committed to a person.
What I am doing is speaking the only language a company - not the PEOPLE WITHIN, but the faceless conglomerate entity of Paizo itself - understands. I am telling the company as a whole "I do not like this situation, and will resume channeling my cash through you when it is resolved".
The employees within Paizo understand English, which I speak here in the forums. I pull no weapons against people.
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it is non-remarkable that this decision was made and no-one thought to get ahead of it.It is, with commercial contracts, normal and standard and expected to inform your partner before you make a public statement about changes to that partnership.
I would be interested in your take on the Patreon video that seems to claim that AoN send a message regarding their upcomming statement hours before it became public.
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With all due respect, for a smaller company, loss of revenue means job losses.
I understand going after "new yatch every year CEO" sized places, but this is a place that has roughly 150 people. And already with the Diamond Fiasco, you aren't pulling the plug on a giant corporation that has consistently been anti consumer. You're getting rid of people's jobs, insurances, and whatnot.Vote with your wallet, sure, but don't act as if it doesn't mean losses of jobs in case of medium sized companies. If you don't care about the individuals, and consider them an "entity" that's fine, but IMO it's not without consequences beyond what you're saying.
Never did I say it was without consequences. In fact, it would kinda defeat the purpose of voting with your wallet if there weren't consequences, no?
Nor did I say I don't care about the individuals in the company. Their contribution to the art and their more community-oriented decisions for the company are the reason I even consented to transacting with them in the first place. Unfortunately, that means these decisions (collectively made under the guise of the company itself) also will determine whether or not I STOP consenting to transact with them.
It is amoral to shove a knife against an employee's throat. It is not amoral to choose to not support the decision of a company you once supported (especially when all you ask for is transparency and a resolution).
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The way a lot of folks are talking about it, I'd think Paizo was holding a gun to AoN's head demanding they shut down. I think it sucks there won't be art or speedier updates to AoN, but how does this honestly warrant this much vitriol and outpouring of how useful of a site it is like it's trying to convince them not to kill it? It's not going anywhere, unless AoN has decided they want to go nuclear for some reason to harm paizo and the community over free PDFs and art(doubtful).
Edit just to say, I'm old, I started PF1 using d20PFsrd to see if I liked it, the same as so many talking about AoN so I'm no stranger to how useful this content is. These sites have been around since before this license agreement and will likely continue to exist well after it as long as people still love the game. This kind of official partnership was more of an exception than anything, it's great but also not something I would expect to be forever or in any game in the first place.
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I would be interested in your take on the Patreon video that seems to claim that AoN send a message regarding their upcomming statement hours before it became public.it is non-remarkable that this decision was made and no-one thought to get ahead of it.It is, with commercial contracts, normal and standard and expected to inform your partner before you make a public statement about changes to that partnership.
Since you specifically asked for my opinion, and not to try to change anyone's mind: Hours is pretty close to no notification. Especially if you send bullet points about what you are going to say, rather than the statement itself.
Paizo gave AoN an extra six months to become compliant. AoN gave Paizo less than 24 hours notice that they'd be posting something, and only gave bullet points on what that would be. It takes time for a business to put together a response. Normally when talking press releases, notice is described in days, not hours.
I begin to wonder if a chunk of the disconnect between Paiz and AoN comes from Paizo seeing themselves as having a business relationship with an LLC, and AoN saw themselves as volunteers who should not be expected to put in as much time and effort on communication as the paid Paizo employees.
I think Rose-Wind LLC is the company entity that runs AoN, and I can't find any information that it is registered as a not-for-profit, nonprofit, or public utility. And given they appear to be 100% volunteer labor, that worries me. But I don't have all the info on that. For example, if the LLC is owned by everyone who works on the site, I think that's perfectly legal. Though I am Not a Lawyer, and This IS Not Legal Advice.
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Since you specifically asked for my opinion, and not to try to change anyone's mind: Hours is pretty close to no notification. Especially if you send bullet points about what you are going to say, rather than the statement itself.
Paizo gave AoN an extra six months to become compliant. AoN gave Paizo less than 24 hours notice that they'd be posting something, and only gave bullet points on what that would be. It takes time for a business to put together a response. Normally when talking press releases, notice is described in days, not hours.
To be fair, if they waited a couple of weeks with no response from Jim, at what point are they still expected to wait around? That situation wasn't going anywhere, they decided they had to act, and they sent a heads up about it. Since Paizo are the ones ending the deal, AoN doesn't really owe them any more than that.
I begin to wonder if a chunk of the disconnect between Paiz and AoN comes from Paizo seeing themselves as having a business relationship with an LLC, and AoN saw themselves as volunteers who should not be expected to put in as much time and effort on communication as the paid Paizo employees.
It's a bunch of volunteers that were feeling ghosted by a CEO. So... yeah. They got the news out to their users (aka: all of us) about what was happening and probably weren't worried that it might take Paizo 3 days to respond to their heads up about the statement going out.
The X factor in all that is that volunteers do stuff out of passion. And when passionate people feel jilted, they're going to react.
I'll be honest: if I didn't get a response from a company for two weeks and the clock was ticking down, I wouldn't have been in an overly patient mood either. I wish it had gone differently because the partnership was great for the game, but I understand AoN's feelings here.
I think Rose-Wind LLC is the company entity that runs AoN, and I can't find any information that it is registered as a not-for-profit, nonprofit, or public utility. And given they appear to be 100% volunteer labor, that worries me. But I don't have all the info on that. For example, if the LLC is owned by everyone who works on the site, I think that's perfectly legal. Though I am Not a Lawyer, and This IS Not Legal Advice.
Rose-Wind LLC is the company that runs AoN, that's correct. I don't know much more than that.
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It's been a long while since I've poked my head in on this discussion and it's evolved in some pretty notable ways. I want to give specific mentions to both Owen's commentary as well as OceanshieldwolPF's. I think they both made excellent contributions. I also want to apologize to Maya for flying a little too close to the sun on a previous post. I sincerely haven't been trying to worsen the discussion.
All that said, I do think it's important to heed Owen's input and be aware that the critical parts of this conversation do need to ensure some level of constructive element. I also want to reassess something I asserted earlier on that I can say more confidently with the context added by people who have posted in this thread: I cannot fathom this being an internally popular decision at Paizo. The majority of people who have made this company special to me were almost certainly not involved in this decision and this response and they have to deal with the fallout.
I think that contributes massively to my distaste for this response as a whole. This feels very much like a management decision that was difficult, but had some internal, sympathetic logic to it that was dashed fiercely following it's concluding paragraph. I am not here to litigate whether or not AoN could have done a better job communicating as a partner. Certainly, it seems suffice to say that they could have, but I believe it is unfair to frame this situation as a failure or act of malice by them. They were backed into a corner and also faced with poor communication from a body that has all of the negotiating power and sway and gave them relatively short notice that they needed to scrub a ton of content from their website.
The question that seems to go unasked but we all know the answer to has been "and then what if they fail to reach the deadline?" And that answer is just simply legal action. And Paizo, the company, putting a ton of valuable volunteer workers in a tough spot where they need to do a ton of extra work that diminishes the value of their resource at threat of DMCA is going to feel sour because it simply is a sour thing to do. And it's deeply hurtful to see that the tone from the end of the blog post seems to have influenced the discussion of some of the pro-Paizo sentiment here.
I am never going to criticize someone for wanting the game to thrive or for the employees to be treated with dignity and respect. At no point during this have I stated a desire for Pathfinder or any of Paizo's work to cease, but it is so massively disheartening to see certain responses jumping to that. This is before we even get into the context that this is a situation involving people who love these games so much that they spend so much free time and effort to make sure it is supported and accessible. Paizo is a part of making Pathfinder, 100%, but they are only a part. And I don't think you'd find anyone who works on the game seriously argue otherwise.
And when I sit on this conflux of situations, it just makes my dislike for this specific response greater and greater. Being in an unfair situation and having to do unfair things happens, but they don't have to happen like this. So much of this situation were bad decisions in execution. There did not need to be a lapse in communication to begin with. There could have been resources allocated to making this process more palatable and sympathetic on people providing labor for Paizo's product, both within and without the company. There could have been a response drafted by someone more well equipped to speak diplomatically on this matter. And these choices were not taken, categorically.
I've been pretty sincere about my love for the game and my lack of desire to leave it, but I strongly feel that, at the bare minimum AoN deserves a public apology for how this was handled. And I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Paizo, the company, to do that. And, frankly, I would want Paizo upper management to apologize to their own staff at this point if they haven't already. This situation, as has been repeatedly noted, has been awful for them and didn't need to. Paizo, the people who make the game I love, have been negatively affected by this course of action and I don't think it's contradictory for me to expect better from a publisher I want to buy from while also caring for the artists who produced something dear to me.
Those are two roads in the same damn town.
Edit: I need to watch the Patreon FAQ and will correct inaccuracies in this post after doing so.
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1. Unexpectedly give them 1 month to do an enormous amount of work scrubbing every image off their website right when you are about to be gone on vacation and be unable to answer emails.
Nethys said in the video FAQ only posted in their patreon that Paizo gave them 6 month grace period and it's actually a single hour's work to remove the images from the website. It was AoN's choice to remove all of the images immediately as the partnership ends. It wasn't Paizo's expectation or demand.
Watch the FAQ and don't spread misinformation
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I am a bit worried by the spread of different information selectively amongst various platforms.
We have the statement of AoN on every single page of the website.
We have some comments made by Nethys in the forum.
We have FAQ video in the patreon page.
Why not update the official statement that everyone sees on every single page of the website, instead of half the information.
Information later shared by Nethys in FAQ and comments is very important and changes the context immensely.
- Paizo did express they were not happy with the deal and were in talks with AoN if they could generate revenue that would allow for royalties. AoN wasn't interested in that. So the decision didn't come out of the blue
- 6 month grace period offered in the beginning by Paizo.
- It was AoN's choice to remove art immediately (it takes an hour's work)
- Paizo offered a new deal (Albeit without its details)
- Paizo was notified a few hours ago before the release of the statement with some bullet points about what he was planning to state. (not the full statement)
- Statement was edited later on before being published as the rest of the team wanted to express their disappointment less positively.
I do not understand why AoN isn't supplementing their statement that is on every page of the website with this new information. It gives me a sour taste really. I am all for everyone making their own judgment and decisions but please give the full context so it's fair for all.
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I would be interested in your take on the Patreon video that seems to claim that AoN send a message regarding their upcomming statement hours before it became public.it is non-remarkable that this decision was made and no-one thought to get ahead of it.It is, with commercial contracts, normal and standard and expected to inform your partner before you make a public statement about changes to that partnership.
Since you specifically asked for my opinion, and not to try to change anyone's mind: Hours is pretty close to no notification. Especially if you send bullet points about what you are going to say, rather than the statement itself.
Paizo gave AoN an extra six months to become compliant. AoN gave Paizo less than 24 hours notice that they'd be posting something, and only gave bullet points on what that would be. It takes time for a business to put together a response. Normally when talking press releases, notice is described in days, not hours.
I begin to wonder if a chunk of the disconnect between Paiz and AoN comes from Paizo seeing themselves as having a business relationship with an LLC, and AoN saw themselves as volunteers who should not be expected to put in as much time and effort on communication as the paid Paizo employees.
I think Rose-Wind LLC is the company entity that runs AoN, and I can't find any information that it is registered as a not-for-profit, nonprofit, or public utility. And given they appear to be 100% volunteer labor, that worries me. But I don't have all the info on that. For example, if the LLC is owned by everyone who works on the site, I think that's perfectly legal. Though I am Not a Lawyer, and This IS Not Legal Advice.
Thank you for your answer and insight on this matter
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1. Unexpectedly give them 1 month to do an enormous amount of work scrubbing every image off their website right when you are about to be gone on vacation and be unable to answer emails.
Nethys said in the video FAQ only posted in their patreon that Paizo gave them 6 month grace period and it's actually a single hour's work to remove the images from the website. It was AoN's choice to remove all of the images immediately as the partnership ends. It wasn't Paizo's expectation or demand.
Watch the FAQ and don't spread misinformation
They also explained in the FAQ why they didn't want to use the 6 months.
One of the primary reasons being that they were fed up with the whole ordeal. This has certainly damaged the relationship between Paizo and AoN, which is sad to see.
Yes, 'ripping the band-aid off' was part of the explanation as well, which just seems to aggravate the impact of it on the community, would be nice to have the art for 6 more months, you know.
I wonder if it has to do with having a bigger reaction to what happened?
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1. Unexpectedly give them 1 month to do an enormous amount of work scrubbing every image off their website right when you are about to be gone on vacation and be unable to answer emails.
Nethys said in the video FAQ only posted in their patreon that Paizo gave them 6 month grace period and it's actually a single hour's work to remove the images from the website. It was AoN's choice to remove all of the images immediately as the partnership ends. It wasn't Paizo's expectation or demand.
Watch the FAQ and don't spread misinformation
They also explained in the FAQ why they didn't want to use the 6 months.
One of the primary reasons being that they were fed up with the whole ordeal. This has certainly damaged the relationship between Paizo and AoN, which is sad to see.
Yes, 'ripping the band-aid off' was part of the explanation as well, which just seems to aggravate the impact of it on the community, would be nice to have the art for 6 more months, you know.
I wonder if it has to do with having a bigger reaction to what happened?
I'm guessing it has a lot to do with selflessly offering their time and effort for 8 years, only to be tossed aside with same-day notice and then ghosted.
Might have had something to do with a desire to completely separate from Paizo as quickly and completely as possible without taking down the archives.
I think they have every right and I wish we knew that in their statement: "We had 6 months to do it but actually we will do this immediately because of our emotions in the matter"
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Something that I feel has been missing in the community discussion response to this is around the concept of the trust thermocline, which is a really important and (IMO vastly) overlooked concept in business-community relations. Recommend reading the linked thread.
Basically, for me, this whole matter isn't such an enormous deal on its own; but it is the latest in a string of business decisions that feel like moves against their own community. I won't relitigate the whole list here as most of them are already well-known (with the potential exception of how they immediately undermined the ORC by making Infinite and ORC content not be compatible; there was not enough of a community response to that given how egregious of a move it was). But, I felt able to tolerate the previous ones to varying extents because of my emotional investment in Pathfinder as a hobby and in Paizo as the good alternative to WotC. For me, this point is what feels like a step too far, the straw that breaks the camel's back.
I feel like Paizo's product has only gotten better with time; 2e and the remaster (and Starfinder being compatible with it) are great, and everything I've heard about 13 Omens sounds really neat; as my interest has been shifting towards more rules-lite RPGs lately, it was exciting to hear that Paizo would be launching one, and one well-suited to one-shots at that. But it feels as though Paizo as a company (not as any individual; Maya, it's clear you're doing the best you can with what you have and that is deeply appreciated) has repeatedly gotten worse for its own community, and at some point that starts to take a toll.
Just, something to consider for the folks who feel like this latest change isn't a huge deal: it doesn't need to be for it to be the tipping point where the trust thermocline is breached, and I suspect that it's that collection of multiple things that have built up over time which has in part elicited such a strong response with folks canceling subscriptions and the like.
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For those who may not have seen it, AoN has put up a FAQ video on their patreon.
Thank you for sharing this!
The video did really clarify things from the AoN perspective and I have full faith that Blake Davis (AoN founder) was being fully genuine in both what he and the AoN team knew and what they didn't.
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Alright after sleeping on it, reading the forums and watching the second AoN video, I've had something of an epiphany.
I know nothing about what is actually happening at this point. I have turned this situation over and over in my head and while the ball has gotten smoother, no clarity has come to me.
So until I do understand what's happening, I'm pulling back on my initial reaction. I still feel Jim was - perhaps unintentionally - hostile with the last part of his message and I want to make it clear that I do not feel that is warranted and would feel better with an apology, but maybe withdrawing support from Paizo full stop isn't the play. Maybe making it clear that I will if things continue on this trajectory is enough. I don't know.
This whole situation sucks, and I'm throwing some money AoNs way after I finish this message. Hope we can get this resolved in a mutually beneficial way without more drama.
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https://www.patreon.com/nethys/posts/partnership-faq-163964893
The new information from AON in the video on the patreon really outlined how hurt they feel, how sudden and cold this was. How little communication was made and how quickly they were given notice. AoN tried to notify/communicate, even what the statement was going to say.
AoN also said there was a 6 month period but they just want to rip the band-aid off (an emotional response, even if I can understand.) despite having possible grandfather options from feeling hurt/not wanting to hear this conversation in the future, but we'll probably hear those conversations either way and that wasn't communicated in the original AON announcement that the time frame of action for art was in their ball court in a range. I don't fully understand that. I get where it's coming from, but I don't get the intended result. Then again, I also don't get Paizo's expectation either or how they expect people to respond. Anybody can see how this is bad in ways beyond other controversies have been if this is 'all' there is to this.
At the same time I understand the pressure of not wanting to make a surprise announcement after waiting weeks for response while your mostly a non-monetary entity doing this out of passion after so many years of work almost totally for Paizo and the communities benefit and how disrespectful that has to feel.
I think the Paizo Blog was a really bad response that didn't really get to the why this decision was made or address the how or acknowledge the very obvious backlash or get ahead of it. Paizo get's thousands of emails out of this but particular individuals just had to keep a bridge of communication open with the most positively viewed partnership in the communities eyes during extremely trying times? it sounds pretty obvious what people could find wrong with that.
Paizo, this felt like a slope that could be mitigated/still fixed with acknowledgement and better communications. AoN, I hope ya'll get past this and can come to terms and grandfather some visualization, even if it's not perfect.
In a perfect world, AoN says "we're stepping up during these trying times." and Paizo says "We're sorry, and we'll honor your names, we'll fix this and make it right as soon as we can, we'll give you a better license after our problems resolve." Instead, it's been like witnessing messy divorce.