Nice!
I might be the only person on earth who like the static DCs, at least as far as consumables and certain types of permanent items go, so I'm glad it's going to be an optional rule (I'm inferring that's what they mean) and not a pivot in design.
Options are always good. And yes, being able to tune the game to your table's preferences is fantastic.
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I'm hoping that it is more than just the DCs that get guidance. The Item DC by level table has been around for a long time.
What is much more challenging is scaling other item values, such as the value of bonus that the item gives, or the amount of damage, or a duration, or the frequency that the item can be used.
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At minium they'd need to include how the scaling process works, I assume it'd be a discounted version of how you can currently upgrade items, but to any level.
You'd need to discount it to make it actually viable. It can't be automatic because then the game instantly becomes buying up level 1 items and reaping the benefits of the improved scaling.
Or perhaps you pick "signature items" that scale with you, which means you can't just buy several wands of slow or whatever.
Then as you said, you'd want information on the other scaling, and I think that's a couple pages worth of rules given the several tables it'd need.
Great, now I need to actually go through the item list looking for good effects to scale up.
We already had a similar discussion a long time ago and we pretty much reached a consensus that even if you were to buy an infinite number of 1st-level items with a scaling DC it wouldn't matter much if the effect its still appropiate for a 1st level item. There's a few outliers ofc, but overall it would be fine.
I also think that most people here (or at least it happened to me) are assuming this is going to be a variant rule to re-calculate the DCs, when it could also be a way for PCs to pay to upgrade their items instead. I personally wouldn't like it if it was like this, but having guidelines to do it are grealy appreciated.
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It sounds like this will be a book a lot of folks like. Is this going to be a full on rule book? Or a lost omen book with some crafting and equipment rules in it?
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Oh thank God, the "2 levels of use treasure morphing into vendor scrap" treadmill was my major complaint of the system. Treasure doesn't feel as cool to me when "permanent" items are more like consumables with a more loosely defined, but still heavily limited, number of effective uses; effective here meaning to me a use that was worth the effort as far as chances of success (the crit system and level bound nature in this game quickly invalidates things that don't scale). If this book fixes that, it's a day 1 purchase!
A bunch of books got leaked by Barnes and Noble last week, including this one.
Really looking forward to this book!
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I'm hoping for new implements, a way to apply weapon potency runes to implements to give spellcasters the appropriate scaling for spell attacks, and a way to apply special materials & effects to spells (not just metal for Needle Darts).
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You'd need to discount it to make it actually viable. It can't be automatic because then the game instantly becomes buying up level 1 items and reaping the benefits of the improved scaling.
You have 10 investment slots and 2 hands. And limited actions. First level items that autoscale may be cheap, but higher level items generally have better effects. That gives plenty incentive to use them when gold isn’t your only limit.
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Sure but what's the point bothering with your spell slots when buying wands of your fave buff/debuff becomes trivial and you can just keep trying again until you hit it.
That's my contention here, the game is designed around the expectation that some resources are limited and giving everyone as many spells as they can carry even if you have to draw it seems like it'd become a headache to manage pretty fast.
Sure but what's the point bothering with your spell slots when buying wands of your fave buff/debuff becomes trivial and you can just keep trying again until you hit it.
That's my contention here, the game is designed around the expectation that some resources are limited and giving everyone as many spells as they can carry even if you have to draw it seems like it'd become a headache to manage pretty fast.
This is scrolls already though?
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Your scrolls don't have a scaling DC, unless I'm sorely mistaken?
The way I'm understanding this is that you'd be able to snag whatever wand at the cheapest level you can, and then cast that spell at the on-level DC. Hence it's not just scrolls because depending on the level, you're potentially paying under the cost of an on-level scroll for a repeatable cast of an on-level* spell that stays on level for the rest of the campaign.
My
*as far as DC is concerned
I'm also pretty sure that wand DCs also scale already.
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Anyways my prediction is that this is going to be a total nothingburger, just at cost or mostly meaningless discount upgrade rules.
Divided on if that’s technically an improvement (if not one that actually fixes the core issues) or overall bad for the game as it doesn’t do much good but *does* allow security badge, ashen rune, and probably a handful of other outright broken fixed DC items to be a problem at all levels.
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Item scaling is great for characters that have a thematic item and want to keep using it, which is REALLY hard right now because any item with a DC becomes obsolete after a handful of levels.
Giving GMs a framework to improve those, even if it still requires some manual "think about this before allowing it" work is a big step forward. So I'm pretty excited for this one since this is a gap in the system right now and a toolbox to help fill it would be greatly welcome.
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I'm also just generally excited for the book. Treasure Vault is definitely one of my fave books, as I do enjoy "kitchen sink" books that print a variety of stuff that any campaign can benefit from. Paizo's heavier theming has definitely made the books more interesting to read, but if you're running a campaign with specific flavour and vibes sometimes there's just nothing for you in there.
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Anyways my prediction is that this is going to be a total nothingburger, just at cost or mostly meaningless discount upgrade rules.
Divided on if that’s technically an improvement (if not one that actually fixes the core issues) or overall bad for the game as it doesn’t do much good but *does* allow security badge, ashen rune, and probably a handful of other outright broken fixed DC items to be a problem at all levels.
Security Badge is broken because it is a custom AP item.
And if an Item like Ashen rune was broken on level, that was merely hidden by the bad DC scaling. That especially should be fixed.
No, it’s broken OP and it happens to be an AP item. Being an AP item is not very probative of being broken powerful, the rate of brokenness among AP items is not much different than among all items.
For truly game breaking items the list is very short and IIRC this is the only one from an AP, which is probably underrepresentation compared to the total fraction of AP items.
Some examples of broken op non-AP items:
Aforementioned ashen rune is almost as bad, same b*%@~*#@ control but it’s just a rider on your strikes now - actually it might be worse!
A 4th rank invisibility scroll (or dust of disappearance) is actually more broken if you know what you’re doing and grab the supporting infrastructure. Security badge doesn’t let you reliably solo several level 20 enemies at once without a scratch.
The mask of uncanny breath of instadrown fame is worse too, and not from an AP.
Some would argue that contingency + containment is too powerful, allowing you to spring up full cover and negate any hit or spell you can see coming as a reaction. Especially for a gates wizard who can teleport out easily next turn. Personally I think it’s fine, but it is pretty cracked.
Leaching fangs gives half damage heal on all hits, which is practically immortality on a fighter or barbarian, obtained without having to do anything (besides activation) to disrupt or change your already extremely powerful actions lineup.
Wind ocarina completely negates archery attacks for 50gp with no counter. You’re just immune to being shot. Situational, but it completely shuts off the encounter type. And worse it’s so cheap and effective the BBEG has effectively zero excuse to not distribute these to their minions, at which point the archer PC may as well not be counted in combat balancing.
So that’s 5 or 6 right there, and I don’t think AP content is less than 17% of printed content. Doesn’t seem like a trend towards busted OP AP items, just the normal amount you’d expect if they were about as likely to be busted as any item.
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Wind ocarina completely negates archery attacks for 50gp with no counter. You’re just immune to being shot. Situational, but it completely shuts off the encounter type. And worse it’s so cheap and effective the BBEG has effectively zero excuse to not distribute these to their minions, at which point the archer PC may as well not be counted in combat balancing.I think you overvalue them. First, archer characters are weapon users, so they have options. It's not like antimagic for casters which breaks them completely. Secondly, effect of Ocarina is mostly just Wall of Wind, scrolls of which are even cheaper. Yes, the Wall is stationary, scrolls need spellcasters, effect of the ocarina is stronger in some cases, but very comparable.
Wall of wind is problematic as well but can be countered by running up on the caster. The wind ocarina completely shuts off the bow, it is impossible to use. They’re protected even if you walk behind them, next to them, wherever they want to move, etc. If you’re an archer PC and the BBEG’s underling pulls out a wind ocarina, you are now playing a runeless mostly featless probably low STR version of your class. You literally can’t use your main weapon, that’s utterly crippling.
And don’t tell me it’s fine because they can have a backup weapon, outside of ABP that s#&! costs way too much and shouldn’t be forced by a 50gp hard counter consumable. And that doesn’t help with the fact that your feats are irrelevant and your ability scores wrong.
Unless I'm missing something here, the wind ocarina doesn't have a DC whatsoever, so I don't see how scaling DCs would make it stronger?
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While it costs 20 gp more, a rank 4 dispel magic scroll is going to take care of an ocarina with one shot, more than likely. If “all in on archery or bust” is your character’s thing, than you or an ally that can cast from scrolls is a pretty good idea. It will also take care of the wall of wind.
But you should also be prepared/ or start getting prepared, because at higher level there is a bunch of spells that will ruin your day.
Requiring 2 hands is pretty brutal on the ocarina. It really does not seem any more busted than realizing that some creatures can cast darkness and prevent you from being able to see if you are not prepared for it.
Unless I'm missing something here, the wind ocarina doesn't have a DC whatsoever, so I don't see how scaling DCs would make it stronger?It's just part of the list of the usual go-to stuff that isn't uncommon AP material in response to:
Security Badge is broken because it is a custom AP item.
Not sure why anyone thinks staple, powerful and/or broken options are limited to AP material at this point.
You wrote that “ Security Badge is broken because it is a custom AP item.”
Along with other arguments that AP items are often busted OP.
Gestalt wrote that busted OP items aren’t limited to AP content, which itself isn’t that strong of an argument on its own but is expressing support/agreement with my prior evidence that AP items are not any more busted than non-AP items (in the form of finding plenty of busted non-AP items that’s roughly proportional to the amount of non-AP content vs AP items).
If you have additional busted OP AP items please share. If you can find those in sufficient numbers to be well above the amount you’d expect if both populations (AP and non-AP) were equally likely to be busted, then your argument has some merits. Otherwise it’s pretty well disproved by the empirical evidence I’ve presented and a few others have supported. (I do think you have a case for unique items, though idk that it would break down on AP lines)
With a exceptionally low chance of receiving Errata.
This is the kicker. Items in core books might get fixed at some point, whereas AP items are basically guaranteed to never be updated.
It's not really that APs have tons of broken items (there are some standouts but also lots of bad items), it's just that an obviously broken item in a core book is a lot more likely to be corrected.
You say that but wind ocarina and mask of uncanny breath both survived the remaster unscathed, and so did all the battleship stealth tech. I guess phantasmal doorknob got a nerf but that was merely overtuned, not actually game breaking.
A 6th level item giving a version of a 3rd rank spell is not grounds for immediate errata. The mask of uncanny breath probably should give a save. It uses a reaction so it is probably not triggering off a reaction and basically just auto tripping and disarming…which is overtuned if hammer crit specialization got a save dc, but it’s a pretty mild “game breaker.”
Like, unless you already have a monk in your party and want them to be your occultism person, it’s not a must have party item.
Uncanny breath combos with water to instadrown, which is the main issue, and also combos with tactical reflexes to end an enemy’s turn and cause unconscious for quite an long time off nothing but a successful tactical reflexes reactive strike.
As I’ve said earlier in this thread wind ocarina is meaningfully more toxic than wall of wind - anyone can use it, 5ft emanation means you just can’t target the guy even if you walk up on him., he can reposition at will, etc. And to be clear I think regular wall of wind is also broken in near the same fashion and should be changed to something like a minus 5 penalty instead of full immunity.
The suffocation rules are pretty forgiving. If you can’t breathe and are unconscious, it’s a dc 20 fort save against light damage. You’ll wake up in one round, the DC doesn’t have time to get scary by the time you should be fine. The set up on trying to make that insta-Killy is beyond excessive. And the build to get the unconscious condition to last more just your own turn is not that great. Again, the actual activation ability is a little out of line and should have a save of some kind but it is really not going to break the game.
Actually I just read it again and you don’t fall prone or drop anything. I don’t even think it needs a save as a once a day ability any more.
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Going monk archetype hence losing a feat and archetype locking yourself to make one enemy a day miss one turn doesn't seem very worth it unless you're in a campaign where you're reliably fighting one person per day.
As an aside "creature that breathes" is actually a decently harsh restriction too, including most if not all undead*, elementals, oozes, constructs* and probably a lot of aberrations but they're much more case-by-case.
This just feels like the kind of setup that works in a white room environment but the more you deviate from it the less appealing it is compared to the feat(s) you're giving up.
*also typically immune to unconscious
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The suffocation rules are pretty forgiving. If you can’t breathe and are unconscious, it’s a dc 20 fort save against light damage. You’ll wake up in one round, the DC doesn’t have time to get scary by the time you should be fine. The set up on trying to make that insta-Killy is beyond excessive. And the build to get the unconscious condition to last more just your own turn is not that great. Again, the actual activation ability is a little out of line and should have a save of some kind but it is really not going to break the game.
Actually I just read it again and you don’t fall prone or drop anything. I don’t even think it needs a save as a once a day ability any more.
Yeah, the torturous setup of a martial landing an unarmed strike followed by a friend's 3rd rank aqueous orb at -4 reflex or automatic wall of water (doesn't require unoccupied spaces and doesn't offer a ref save to move outside the wall) which cause drowning which means they don't wake up because their access to air isn't restored.
At later levels your friend could cast a 7th rank vacuum instead and the save doesn’t matter unless you somehow believe that an unconscious creature with all their breath removed can hold their breath.
Either way, it's a fairly trivial setup to delete a single target of large size (water spells) or any size (vacuum), and costs next to nothing build-wise.
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I mean the ability specifies that you regain consciousness at the end of the users turn, if not woken earlier. I am not sure how many GMs will not allow for getting dunked in water or any environment that your body functions radically differently and not have that wake you up.
This whole thing sounds like a rules lawyer player trying to auto kill enemies by bludgeoning their GM with rules that defy common sense, and then suggesting it’s a massively broken ability that needs errata.
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I mean the ability specifies that you regain consciousness at the end of the users turn, if not woken earlier. I am not sure how many GMs will not allow for getting dunked in water or any environment that your body functions radically differently and not have that wake you up.
This whole thing sounds like a rules lawyer player trying to auto kill enemies by bludgeoning their GM with rules that defy common sense, and then suggesting it’s a massively broken ability that needs errata.
Yes, you would wake up from the item's effect, but you have a second source of unconsciousness being applied to you by the drowning/suffocation rules. It's those rules that keep you asleep, same way as if you were under two sources of any condition and one went away while the other did not. You wouldn't suddenly recover from both.
As a GM, I would absolutely never let a player cast wall of water on a sleeping enemy and have that instakill them with no save, because I would get physically assaulted if I did that as a GM to players.
Does the waking up happen just from the sound of battle? The casting of the spell? Or the milliseconds of the wave erupting into reality? I see wiggle room for the GM there to decide, but the time you should not pick is after the character is already suffocating, because unsaveable instadeath is not an assumed ability of any caster who can conceal cast a water spell on a sleeping opponent, nor is the sleep spell instadeath for a swimming opponent.
The issue is not this item, the issue is overthinking “unconscious” as a condition and maybe being unaware that most sleeping people wake up when deprived of oxygen immediately, before they start suffocating.