Can clerics and other divine casters of Zon-Kuthon cast the heal spell?
One of Zon-Kuthon's anathemas is "provide comfort to those who suffer" which gives me pause.
I was hoping to prepare the spell on a Kuthite character for use in prolonging the suffering of torture victims that would otherwise die, but I'm not sure if that would really fly.
What do you guys think? Can Kuthite priests cast heal and/or use other restoratives during the course of their grisly work? Are they not allowed to use Battle Medicine even on themselves?
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Say something mean when you heal them so it's not very comforting.
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Look, if you die you can't feel any more pain. The point is to get you healthy so you can suffer even more.
Healing doesn't have to be painless, like if a Kuthite puts a cast on your broken leg, that thing is going to be *really* itchy.
Everybody in your party could max out Deception.
"Are you suffering?"
"No." (grimace)
"You sure look like you're suffering."
"Maybe, but those Heal spells only worsen the pain."
"Really??"
"Yeah, I'm wired different. They don't provide comfort one bit."
"Hmm. Okay."
"The Champion too."
"Why didn't he say so?"
"Uh...reasons."
---
I wouldn't say it applies to all his Divine casters, only those subject to his Anathema. So a Sorcerer or Oracle who worshiped him could be lax, perhaps rationalize the infraction to themself.
But yeah, a Cleric of Zon-Kuthon doesn't play a healing role, and other than to prolong suffering, I don't think they should. Much like many of the NPCs/creatures into torture happen to have good Medicine, but do they actually Treat Wounds other than to torture more? As cool as the visuals are, it's a tough deity to justify though Divine has enough firepower now Clerics can choose to play the blaster.
Look, if you die you can't feel any more pain. The point is to get you healthy so you can suffer even more.
Healing doesn't have to be painless, like if a Kuthite puts a cast on your broken leg, that thing is going to be *really* itchy.
This is in fact a big mistake that many people make about Zon-Kuthon. That he does not preach for death, but for pain.
And in fact a dead or unconscious character will not feel the sacred pain preached by Zon-Kuthon, it is important that she stays alive, and probably a cleric of Zon-Kuthon will try to guarantee this, but in the most painful way he can do.
The ideal for a believer in Zon-Kuthon is for the pain to be as great and constant as possible, but without this decreasing the creature's lifespan or increasing its chances of dying.
Seeing or suffering excruciating pain from death, illness, or bleeding can be pleasant enough for a follower of Zon-Kuthon, but at the same time, he knows that if this hastens the creature's death, then the game is simply over.
Obviously there are also followers with a more evil view (since Zon-Kuthon is an officially evil deity) who does not care if others perish, as there will always be more to suffer in his place, in addition to there being a variation in his belief where he is also the deity of loss and nothingness, which justifies evil clerics not caring about killing.
Interestingly, Zon-Kuthon is a deity that does not refer to souls, even though he is a deity corrupted by the great beyond. In all the writings I've read about him, he seems to be much more interested in torturing the bodies of the living than the souls of the dead.
In the end, each follower of Zon-Kuthon decides how he will honor his divinity. Perhaps an interesting option for a not-so-evil cleric of his, playable in a non-evil adventure, is to simply never attempt to fully heal. Always choose to leave at least a little damage and never fully treat the injured condition. This probably enough to count as doesn't comfort to those who suffer.
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"Healing someone being tortured in order to continue" is the exact sort of use that Zon-Kuthon would approve of.
More generally, if you're playing a Kuthite Cleric, healing someone up from unconscious is probably okay under most circumstances. Their suffering has already been eased, and you're just bringing them back into it. It would be most proper to use lower-rank slots unless they're expected to be taking more injuries.
Topping someone up between fights, though? That's veering into anathema. Something like Risky Surgery is an excellent workaround. We do have PF1 lore about painful healing that would also work- for some simple flavor, you can say that the healing causes the person to re-experience the sensation of receiving each injury as it's removed.
I'd enjoy getting some sort of painful Kuthite healing spell so it isn't quite so much of an excuse. Knights of Lastwall has a few hitpoint transfer options, and Draconic Codex has Blood-Feasting Breath to steal hitpoints.
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Look, if you die you can't feel any more pain. The point is to get you healthy so you can suffer even more.
Healing doesn't have to be painless, like if a Kuthite puts a cast on your broken leg, that thing is going to be *really* itchy.
This is in fact a big mistake that many people make about Zon-Kuthon. That he does not preach for death, but for pain.
And in fact a dead or unconscious character will not feel the sacred pain preached by Zon-Kuthon, it is important that she stays alive, and probably a cleric of Zon-Kuthon will try to guarantee this, but in the most painful way he can do.
The ideal for a believer in Zon-Kuthon is for the pain to be as great and constant as possible, but without this decreasing the creature's lifespan or increasing its chances of dying.
Seeing or suffering excruciating pain from death, illness, or bleeding can be pleasant enough for a follower of Zon-Kuthon, but at the same time, he knows that if this hastens the creature's death, then the game is simply over.
Obviously there are also followers with a more evil view (since Zon-Kuthon is an officially evil deity) who does not care if others perish, as there will always be more to suffer in his place, in addition to there being a variation in his belief where he is also the deity of loss and nothingness, which justifies evil clerics not caring about killing.
Interestingly, Zon-Kuthon is a deity that does not refer to souls, even though he is a deity corrupted by the great beyond. In all the writings I've read about him, he seems to be much more interested in torturing the bodies of the living than the souls of the dead.
In the end, each follower of Zon-Kuthon decides how he will honor his divinity. Perhaps an interesting option for a not-so-evil cleric of his, playable in a non-evil adventure, is to simply never attempt to fully heal. Always choose to leave at least a little damage and never fully treat the injured condition. This probably enough to count as doesn't comfort...
Exactly.
The proper Kuthite knows that pain is the key to enlightenment.
Being alive and conscious to feel more pain and suffering gives the creature a much higher chance at reaching enlightenment.
Taking it away, by providing comfort or otherwise, is indeed the greatest sin.
Mercy killing is definitely anathema to Zon-Kuthon.
Why do I get the feeling that if this thread goes on long enough, where going to see a "softer side" of Zon from Paizo?
Questions on Anathema regarding details of actions allowed isn't really a rules question. There is no rules answer for those.
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Well, they are listed in the rules--so yes, they are rules. That said, I agree that they are extremely open to interpretation.
Which is why I was hoping to get a few interpretations. :P
I would probably say that the healing magic from a Kuthite is itself painful, despite healing the body it makes you experience the intense sensations of your body knitting itself back together and amplifies the experience. Normally you wouldn't notice, but their magic makes you notice.
So no problem. Despite helping them, you're still hurting them.
Well, they are listed in the rules--so yes, they are rules. That said, I agree that they are extremely open to interpretation.
Which is why I was hoping to get a few interpretations. :P
Kuthite Mystic would be really good themstics, because they can do healing point by point and be incredibly precise on how much they give.