Can clerics and other divine casters of Zon-Kuthon cast the heal spell?
One of Zon-Kuthon's anathemas is "provide comfort to those who suffer" which gives me pause.
I was hoping to prepare the spell on a Kuthite character for use in prolonging the suffering of torture victims that would otherwise die, but I'm not sure if that would really fly.
What do you guys think? Can Kuthite priests cast heal and/or use other restoratives during the course of their grisly work? Are they not allowed to use Battle Medicine even on themselves?
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Say something mean when you heal them so it's not very comforting.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Look, if you die you can't feel any more pain. The point is to get you healthy so you can suffer even more.
Healing doesn't have to be painless, like if a Kuthite puts a cast on your broken leg, that thing is going to be *really* itchy.
Everybody in your party could max out Deception.
"Are you suffering?"
"No." (grimace)
"You sure look like you're suffering."
"Maybe, but those Heal spells only worsen the pain."
"Really??"
"Yeah, I'm wired different. They don't provide comfort one bit."
"Hmm. Okay."
"The Champion too."
"Why didn't he say so?"
"Uh...reasons."
---
I wouldn't say it applies to all his Divine casters, only those subject to his Anathema. So a Sorcerer or Oracle who worshiped him could be lax, perhaps rationalize the infraction to themself.
But yeah, a Cleric of Zon-Kuthon doesn't play a healing role, and other than to prolong suffering, I don't think they should. Much like many of the NPCs/creatures into torture happen to have good Medicine, but do they actually Treat Wounds other than to torture more? As cool as the visuals are, it's a tough deity to justify though Divine has enough firepower now Clerics can choose to play the blaster.
Look, if you die you can't feel any more pain. The point is to get you healthy so you can suffer even more.
Healing doesn't have to be painless, like if a Kuthite puts a cast on your broken leg, that thing is going to be *really* itchy.
This is in fact a big mistake that many people make about Zon-Kuthon. That he does not preach for death, but for pain.
And in fact a dead or unconscious character will not feel the sacred pain preached by Zon-Kuthon, it is important that she stays alive, and probably a cleric of Zon-Kuthon will try to guarantee this, but in the most painful way he can do.
The ideal for a believer in Zon-Kuthon is for the pain to be as great and constant as possible, but without this decreasing the creature's lifespan or increasing its chances of dying.
Seeing or suffering excruciating pain from death, illness, or bleeding can be pleasant enough for a follower of Zon-Kuthon, but at the same time, he knows that if this hastens the creature's death, then the game is simply over.
Obviously there are also followers with a more evil view (since Zon-Kuthon is an officially evil deity) who does not care if others perish, as there will always be more to suffer in his place, in addition to there being a variation in his belief where he is also the deity of loss and nothingness, which justifies evil clerics not caring about killing.
Interestingly, Zon-Kuthon is a deity that does not refer to souls, even though he is a deity corrupted by the great beyond. In all the writings I've read about him, he seems to be much more interested in torturing the bodies of the living than the souls of the dead.
In the end, each follower of Zon-Kuthon decides how he will honor his divinity. Perhaps an interesting option for a not-so-evil cleric of his, playable in a non-evil adventure, is to simply never attempt to fully heal. Always choose to leave at least a little damage and never fully treat the injured condition. This probably enough to count as doesn't comfort to those who suffer.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Healing someone being tortured in order to continue" is the exact sort of use that Zon-Kuthon would approve of.
More generally, if you're playing a Kuthite Cleric, healing someone up from unconscious is probably okay under most circumstances. Their suffering has already been eased, and you're just bringing them back into it. It would be most proper to use lower-rank slots unless they're expected to be taking more injuries.
Topping someone up between fights, though? That's veering into anathema. Something like Risky Surgery is an excellent workaround. We do have PF1 lore about painful healing that would also work- for some simple flavor, you can say that the healing causes the person to re-experience the sensation of receiving each injury as it's removed.
I'd enjoy getting some sort of painful Kuthite healing spell so it isn't quite so much of an excuse. Knights of Lastwall has a few hitpoint transfer options, and Draconic Codex has Blood-Feasting Breath to steal hitpoints.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Look, if you die you can't feel any more pain. The point is to get you healthy so you can suffer even more.
Healing doesn't have to be painless, like if a Kuthite puts a cast on your broken leg, that thing is going to be *really* itchy.
This is in fact a big mistake that many people make about Zon-Kuthon. That he does not preach for death, but for pain.
And in fact a dead or unconscious character will not feel the sacred pain preached by Zon-Kuthon, it is important that she stays alive, and probably a cleric of Zon-Kuthon will try to guarantee this, but in the most painful way he can do.
The ideal for a believer in Zon-Kuthon is for the pain to be as great and constant as possible, but without this decreasing the creature's lifespan or increasing its chances of dying.
Seeing or suffering excruciating pain from death, illness, or bleeding can be pleasant enough for a follower of Zon-Kuthon, but at the same time, he knows that if this hastens the creature's death, then the game is simply over.
Obviously there are also followers with a more evil view (since Zon-Kuthon is an officially evil deity) who does not care if others perish, as there will always be more to suffer in his place, in addition to there being a variation in his belief where he is also the deity of loss and nothingness, which justifies evil clerics not caring about killing.
Interestingly, Zon-Kuthon is a deity that does not refer to souls, even though he is a deity corrupted by the great beyond. In all the writings I've read about him, he seems to be much more interested in torturing the bodies of the living than the souls of the dead.
In the end, each follower of Zon-Kuthon decides how he will honor his divinity. Perhaps an interesting option for a not-so-evil cleric of his, playable in a non-evil adventure, is to simply never attempt to fully heal. Always choose to leave at least a little damage and never fully treat the injured condition. This probably enough to count as doesn't comfort...
Exactly.
The proper Kuthite knows that pain is the key to enlightenment.
Being alive and conscious to feel more pain and suffering gives the creature a much higher chance at reaching enlightenment.
Taking it away, by providing comfort or otherwise, is indeed the greatest sin.
Mercy killing is definitely anathema to Zon-Kuthon.
Why do I get the feeling that if this thread goes on long enough, where going to see a "softer side" of Zon from Paizo?
Questions on Anathema regarding details of actions allowed isn't really a rules question. There is no rules answer for those.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, they are listed in the rules--so yes, they are rules. That said, I agree that they are extremely open to interpretation.
Which is why I was hoping to get a few interpretations. :P
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would probably say that the healing magic from a Kuthite is itself painful, despite healing the body it makes you experience the intense sensations of your body knitting itself back together and amplifies the experience. Normally you wouldn't notice, but their magic makes you notice.
So no problem. Despite helping them, you're still hurting them.
Well, they are listed in the rules--so yes, they are rules. That said, I agree that they are extremely open to interpretation.
Which is why I was hoping to get a few interpretations. :P
Kuthite Mystic would be really good themstics, because they can do healing point by point and be incredibly precise on how much they give.
I played a Kuthite cleric in first edition. Her heals hurt as they fixed the body.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Since PF2 encourages flavoring spells to suit your caster's flavor, this falls into allowed-territory. Whenever your PC heals someone, simply describe the thorns of pain your spell drives into their bones & tissue. Make the player/PC/NPC doubt you actually healed them/cast Heal, even as you say "You get 13 hit points back." "Yeah, but what did you do to me?!"
"You needed healing, didn't you?" Meanwhile the PC who can identify spells snickers.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Your net healing is..."
"What do you mean NET healing?"
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Healing a broken limb requires the bone to be set, which can mean the bone grinds against itself, incredibly painful.
New skin is extremely sensitive, so a healed would slapped for 0 damage is gonna hurt like crazy.
The anathema is to give comfort. Make sure you describe how painful your healing is. the sensation of new raw skin growing in, causing even a gust of wind to feel like icy daggers against their skin. the burning sensation as bacteria are cleaned out of a wound before closing it up. the idea that your healing of the bleeding condition would literally feel like their wound is being packed in salt, because it has antisceptic properties. really look at what parts of modern medicine are done for comfort of the patient and just imagine a physician who will not do any of it.
Basically healing without anesthesia.
Healing a broken limb requires the bone to be set, which can mean the bone grinds against itself, incredibly painful.
New skin is extremely sensitive, so a healed would slapped for 0 damage is gonna hurt like crazy.
The anathema is to give comfort. Make sure you describe how painful your healing is. the sensation of new raw skin growing in, causing even a gust of wind to feel like icy daggers against their skin. the burning sensation as bacteria are cleaned out of a wound before closing it up. the idea that your healing of the bleeding condition would literally feel like their wound is being packed in salt, because it has antisceptic properties. really look at what parts of modern medicine are done for comfort of the patient and just imagine a physician who will not do any of it.
*Stares wide-eyed*
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why do I get the feeling that if this thread goes on long enough, where going to see a "softer side" of Zon from Paizo?
It wouldn't be without precedent. Zon Kuthon was already one of the few evil deities who didnt lose their non-evil clerics in the shift to 2e, and furthermore doesn't require unholy sanctification. It would not be so strange to catch a lighter shade of grey from a god who has a complicated relationship with his love goddess sister.
That said, with Zon-Shelyn in Starfinder, I don't know that the writers would be that interested in just telling the same in Pathfinder. Still possible, but if anything we're more likely to see that Zon is evil with depth and facets rather than just not actually all that evil.
The point isn't that Zon ceases to be evil. But the type of evil he propagates is very specific: physical pain.
Given this specificity, it opens the door for him to accept non-evil clerics who don't insist on inflicting pain on others, but who still value offering the "blessing" of pain to those who accept it.
My understanding isn't that he ceases to be evil and disapproves of forced pain on others (torture), but rather that he's a more pragmatic deity who even accepts neutral clerics who don't inflict pain, but still glorify and accept it.
With the removal of alignment in the remaster, the aspect that what truly matters is pain gained even more strength, given that the unholy trait, in my view, is still more subtle in defining one's way of acting than alignments were.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In a Starfinder short story, Chk-Chk, a worshipper of Zon-Shelyn, which is half Zon-Kuthon, also absorbed the pain when they healed, deliberately suffering in their friends' stead. So while they were helping their friends, they were taking on the pain.
That's a great example of how to reconcile "healing" with Zon-Kuthon. People just need to be a bit creative with it. Zon-Kuthon doesn't want his followers to just die pointlessly, and healing is a pretty useful tool to prevent that.
Hell, you could argue that healing prolongs pain by keeping someone from escaping it via death!
(It's worth noting that Starfinder lore doesn't canonically apply to Pathfinder as The Gap exists specifically so the two teams don't step on each others toes, but I think this example works really well despite that.)