A Shambler can use Vine Lash to Strike each creature within reach, increasing MAP only after all the attacks are made.
If a summoner is noncritically hit and their eidolon is critically hit by the same Vine Lash, does their shared HP pool only take the critical damage because that's the most damaging part of this Vine Lash? Or does it also take the noncritical damage because they are separate Strikes?
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Definitely take damage from both attacks.
Summoner does have to pay a lot for their pseudo-hybrid chassis, but their two-body problem isn't only a negative.
Sometimes it's nice, such as the SMN chugging elixirs while the eidolon is grappling, but sometimes you do have to deal with eating two strikes at once. Better hope the foe rolls low damage, 1 hit + 1 crit might be oneshot territory, lol.
The attacks are solved separately, but the damage is only the highest.
...Like with your actions, if you and your eidolon are both subject to the same effect that affects your Hit Points, you apply those effects only once (applying the greater effect, if applicable)...
This almost a general rule. Other things like kineticist's Crawling Fire does the same. If something shares HP between 2 creatures and both would be damaged by the same damage effect, you only apply the highest damage, not the damage twice.
But summoners can invert this logic using Protective Bond but unfortunately doesn't work against multi-target effects like Vine Slash only vs AoE.
Idk, if a multi-strike ability counts as "both subjects to the same effect"
then what about SMN & eidolon each getting 1 hit of a Flurry of Blows?
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Idk, if a multi-strike ability counts as "both subjects to the same effect"
then what about SMN & eidolon each getting 1 hit of a Flurry of Blows?
Vine Lash can only Strike each creature within reach once, making it slightly more akin to fireball in that it can't typically hurt a PC multiple times. Flurry of Blows is designed to be able to hurt the same target multiple times, but you are right that if used against both the summoner and eidolon, Flurry isn't much different from Vine Lash.
Another example, If both summoner and eidolon gets hit by Force Barrage (1 missile on summoner, 2 on eidolon). Does that mean you just remove a missile? That to me sounds like a rather silly notion thats far outside of the intent that Summoners shouldnt take the same damage twice from multi-target stuff.
I would think that the Force Barrage is all one effect. It's not like the missiles are subordinate actions, so this case seems clearer to me. But you wouldn't just remove a missile. You'd roll the missile damage for both and only apply the higher one. So if a 4 on the d4 is rolled against the summoner and two 1s are rolled against the eidolon, the total damage is 4+1=5.
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I wouldn't count separate strikes of the same activity to be the same effect.
While its all the same activity the separate strikes are per definition separate subordinate actions and their own effects, Worth noting, Crawling Fire explicitly mentions Area of Effects, and Summoner uses Area of effects as their example.
Well, yes. The Strikes are each their own effect. But those effects are still carried out as part of the larger Vine Lash effect, right? It seems like the summoner and eidolon are both getting damaged by the same Vine Lash effect.
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The issue is that the SMN text is a bit unique to the class, so it can be easy to slip into RaI vibes as to where the line is supposed to be.
The term "effect" itself is actually hella vague. How many "effects" are inside one action? What about one activity? We can at least say that one effect is a smaller unit of game-stuff than 1A is. An "effect" is definitely not an "activity," which may generate/contain many damaging effects.
My take is that "one effect" is actually talking from the attacking actor's point of view. If you look at the rule from that PoV, it makes it possible to adjudicate the "only hurt one" rule with consistency.
This is why casting one fireball is one damaging effect that does trigger SMN's "only hurt one" rule, but that rule does *not* trigger for something like a split Flurry of Blows. Those are two different strikes that each contain their own "damage effects."
I don't think any of the multi-strike examples thus far would trigger the "only hurt one" rule. Nor do I think Force Barrage would trigger it. The actor dedicates a number of missiles into each target separately; it's one spell cast that triggers "multiple effects."
The edge case I would rule that does trigger the "only hurt one" rule is the Fighter/ect feat Swipe.
This is a single melee swing, but it can hit and apply damage to two target independently. Imo this is the perfect example to reveal where the line is. Even though it's not an AoE spell, the actor is rolling one Strike and inflicting damage upon multiple targets via the same "effect."
This imo would trigger the SMN rule, and the PC would only take the worst damage btwn the double-hit.
But you wouldn't just remove a missile. You'd roll the missile damage for both and only apply the higher one. So if a 4 on the d4 is rolled against the summoner and two 1s are rolled against the eidolon, the total damage is 4+1=5.
Well, yes. The Strikes are each their own effect. But those effects are still carried out as part of the larger Vine Lash effect, right? It seems like the summoner and eidolon are both getting damaged by the same Vine Lash effect.
Lol. You are half-conceding that the opposing argument is right, but still doubling down and saying that you are right instead.
"I'm not going to narratively remove a missile from Force Barrage. I'm just going to mathematically remove its effect from the damage calculation."
"The subordinate action Strikes are different effects, but since they are both part of the same activity then they really aren't separate effects."
It doesn't work. It isn't sound logic. Or debating in good faith.
If an ability is MAP reduction or action compression (or both), then the subordinate actions are definitely different and separate effects. That applies for Vine Lash, Flurry of Blows, Force Barrage, and Blazing Bolt. Among others.
I think from a balance perspective, whether the overall effect can normally damage its targets multiple times is key here.
You wouldn't allow an enemy to take double damage from fireball simply because they are crammed in a tiny space. Fireball is balanced around the assumption that each creature is only getting damaged once.
Vine Lash is restricted to one Strike per creature because attacking the same creature repeatedly with no MAP is quite dangerous. Same goes for 2 action Blazing Bolt, which at rank 3+ is basically fireball with an attack roll.
I fear that allowing such effects to bypass that once per target limitation on the basis of "Well, it is all one effect, but isn't it basically just action compression of two discrete effects?" is dangerous, especially if only one class is susceptible to such a dire effect.
But things like Flurry of Blows and Force Barrage? They are already designed with focus fire against one creature in mind. A summoner on the receiving end of these isn't in more danger than anyone else, so I'm more okay with these bypassing the same-effect protection.
But you wouldn't just remove a missile. You'd roll the missile damage for both and only apply the higher one. So if a 4 on the d4 is rolled against the summoner and two 1s are rolled against the eidolon, the total damage is 4+1=5.Well, yes. The Strikes are each their own effect. But those effects are still carried out as part of the larger Vine Lash effect, right? It seems like the summoner and eidolon are both getting damaged by the same Vine Lash effect.Lol. You are half-conceding that the opposing argument is right, but still doubling down and saying that you are right instead.
"I'm not going to narratively remove a missile from Force Barrage. I'm just going to mathematically remove its effect from the damage calculation."
"The subordinate action Strikes are different effects, but since they are both part of the same activity then they really aren't separate effects."
It doesn't work. It isn't sound logic. Or debating in good faith.
If an ability is MAP reduction or action compression (or both), then the subordinate actions are definitely different and separate effects. That applies for Vine Lash, Flurry of Blows, Force Barrage, and Blazing Bolt. Among others.
My argument was that the subordinate Strikes are both their own effects and part of a larger Vine Lash effect. I don't see how those are mutually exclusive.
By the time they meet Mr. Shambler, they should be okay. It's not like they're stuck with a puny three actions. In that first shambler round, a L4 summoner probably gave both her figures a move action via tandem movement (positioning one forward, one back), then acted together to blast with a spell at range while striking it with a melee attack.
Or...
The shambler used its Shamble reaction to Strike the summoner. Then it went first with its +18 Stealth for initiative and used Vine Lash on both the summoner and her eidolon. The summoner got crit and sent to dying 2 while the eidolon also got crit and sent to dying 4.
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The PC1 defines what are effects in 2 different pages:
An effect is the rules term for anything that occurs in the game world. Effects might have limited range, and you may need to designate targets or create areas for your effects. Areas include bursts from a single point, cones blasting out from you, emanations surrounding you or another creature, or straight lines.
Many spells, magic items, and feats create specific effects, and your character will be subject to effects caused by monsters, hazards, the environment, and other characters.
Effects sometimes require checks, but not always. Casting a fly spell on yourself creates an effect that allows you to soar through the air, but casting the spell does not require a check. Conversely, using the Intimidate skill to Demoralize a foe does require a check, and your result on that check determines the effect's outcome.
Most effects are discrete, creating an instantaneous effect when you let the GM know what actions you are going to use. Firing a bow, moving to a new space, or taking something out of your pack all resolve instantly. Other effects instead last for a certain duration. Once the duration has elapsed, the effect ends. The rules generally use the following conventions for durations, though spells have some special durations.For an effect that lasts a number of rounds, the remaining duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn of the creature that created the effect. Detrimental effects often last “until the end of the target's next turn” or “through” a number of their turns (such as “through the target's next 3 turns”), which means that the effect's duration decreases at the end of the creature's turn, rather than the start.
Instead of lasting a fixed number of rounds, a duration might end only when certain conditions are met (or cease to be true). If so, the effects last until those conditions are met.
Some effects can be ended early with the Dismiss action. An effect with the sustained duration lasts until the end of your next turn, but it can be extended as described in the Sustain action.
Abilities that generate an effect typically work within a specified range or a reach. Most spells and abilities list a range—the maximum distance from the creature or object creating the effect in which the effect can occur.Ranged and thrown weapons have a range increment. Attacks with such weapons work normally up to that range. Attacks against targets beyond that range take a –2 penalty, which worsens by 2 for every additional multiple of that range, to a maximum of a –10 penalty after five additional range increments. Attacks beyond this range are not possible. For example, using a shortbow, your attacks take no penalty against a target up to 60 feet away, a –2 penalty if a target is over 60 and up to 120 feet away, a –4 if they're over 120 and up to 180 feet away, and so on, up to a maximum of 360 feet.
Reach is how far you can physically reach with your body or a weapon. Melee Strikes rely on reach. Your reach is typically 5 feet, but weapons with the reach trait can extend this. Larger creatures can have greater reach; for instance, an ogre has a 10-foot reach. Unlike with measuring most distances, 10-foot reach can reach 2 squares diagonally. Reach greater than 10 feet is measured normally: 20-foot reach can reach 3 squares diagonally, 30-foot reach can reach 4, and so on.
Some effects require you to choose specific targets. Targeting can be difficult or impossible if your chosen creature is undetected by you, if the creature doesn't match restrictions on who you can target, or if some other ability prevents it from being targeted.Some effects require a target to be willing. Only you can decide whether your PC is willing, and the GM decides whether an NPC is willing. Even if you or your character don't know what the effect is, such as if your character is unconscious, you still decide if you're willing.
Some effects target or require an ally, or otherwise refer to an ally. This must be someone on your side, often another PC, but it might be a bystander you are trying to protect. You don't count as your own ally. If it isn't clear, the GM decides who counts as an ally or an enemy.
Some effects occupy an area of a specified shape and size. An area effect always has a point of origin and extends out from that point. There are four types of areas: emanations, bursts, cones, and lines. See Area for details.
When creating an effect, you usually need an unblocked path to the target of a spell, the origin point of an effect's area, or the place where you create something with a spell or other ability. This is called a line of effect. You have line of effect unless a creature is entirely behind a solid physical barrier. Visibility doesn't matter for line of effect, nor do portcullises and other barriers that aren't totally solid. Usually a 1-foot-square gap is enough to maintain a line of effect, though the GM makes the final call.In an area effect, creatures or targets must have line of effect to the point of origin to be affected. If there's no line of effect between the origin of the area and the target, the effect doesn't apply to that target. For example, if there's a solid wall between the origin of a fireball and a creature that's within the burst radius, the wall blocks the effect—that creature is unaffected by the fireball and doesn't need to attempt a save against it. Likewise, any ongoing effects created by an ability with an area cease to affect anyone who moves outside of the line of effect.
Some effects require you to have line of sight to your target. As long as you can precisely sense the area (as described in Precise Senses) and it is not blocked by a solid barrier (as described in Cover), you have line of sight. An area of darkness prevents line of sight if you don’t have darkvision, but portcullises and other obstacles that aren’t totally solid do not. Usually a 1-foot-square gap is enough to maintain line of sight, though the GM makes the final call.
So effects are basically anything that could be inserted into a stat block or works like one. They have a target or AoE, they have a duration (that who aren't set are considered instantaneous) and have a range or reach.
I also will add the effects part of Actions to here:
...
Single actions can be completed in a very short time. They're self-contained, and their effects are generated within the span of that single action.Activities usually take longer and require using multiple actions, which must be spent in succession. Stride is a single action, but Sudden Charge is an activity in which you use both the Stride and Strike actions to generate its effect.
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An action might allow you to use a simpler action—usually one of the Basic Actions—in a different circumstance or with different effects. This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but it's modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride. The Stride would still have the move trait, would still trigger reactions that occur based on movement, and so on. The subordinate action doesn't gain any of the traits of the larger action unless specified. The action that allows you to use a subordinate action doesn't require you to spend more actions or reactions to do so; that cost is already factored in.
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An activity typically involves using multiple actions to create an effect greater than you can produce with a single action, or combining multiple single actions to produce an effect that's different from merely the sum of those actions. In some cases, usually when spellcasting, an activity can consist of only 1 action, 1 reaction, or even 1 free action.An activity might cause you to use specific actions within it. You don't have to spend additional actions to perform them—they're already factored into the activity's required actions. (See Subordinate Actions.)
You have to spend all the actions of an activity at once to gain its effects. In an encounter, this means you must complete it during your turn. If an activity gets interrupted or disrupted in an encounter, you lose all the actions you committed to it.
...
So based in all this text. An activity or action have their own effect, even if this effect contains a subordinated action that will have its effects added to it with their normal or modified effects.
So RAW things like Vine Slash, Flurry of Blows, Act Together, Magic Missile Force Barrage or whatever actions or activity is currently running it is a single effect maybe a greater effect that agglomerates all many different actions as mentioned by activity general rule but still is a single effect.
So no matter if a creature is doing a Flurry of Blows agains the Eidolon and other against the Summoner or is another summoner making the Eidolon to Strike another Eidolon while the Summoner casts a spell agains the another summoner they still are considered a single effect because all them are part of same activity or action and only the greater of them would apply.
Obs.: Including the Flurry of Blows that points that if you hit the same cratures with both Strikes of the Flurry of Blows you sum the damage before apply resistances and weakness turning it into a single damage in practice.
But RAI, IMO, this point about the shared HP rules is to just to avoid that the summoner/eidolon could that an damage effect duplicated because it will affect both eidolon and summoner. So only the effects that naturally are impossible to damage a single creature twice also should not affect the eidolon/summoner shared HP twice too, instead you apply the highest damage. Having this in mind, to make Vine Slash to damage both Eidolon and Summoner shared HP twice looks wrong, it's TGTBT for monster side, instead looks more right just apply the highest damage.
While other effect that doesn't have problem to affect the same creatures twice like Flurry of Blows or an Act Together should be fine to apply the both damage normally.
About separate the Eidolon+Summoner shared HP rules from Crawling Fire they are not only one thing that uses the shared HP and tries to avoid duplicated damage effects. Other things in the game exists like Bilocation spell or Necrologist's horde. The general idea of all the are the same. If an HP is shared so and effect that would affect this shared pool twice should be substituted by the highest one.
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Did you see what Yuri posted about activities?
Activities usually take longer and require using multiple actions, which must be spent in succession. Stride is a single action, but Sudden Charge is an activity in which you use both the Stride and Strike actions to generate its effect.
This can be applied to Vine Lash as well. Vine Lash is an activity in which the shambler uses multiple Strike actions to generate the activity's effect.
Did they developers consider Act Together, Force Barrage, Flurry of Blows, and other things that can be either focus fired or spread out over multiple targets? No, probably not. Their concern was presumably over area effects in particular, since they are designed to not affect the same creature twice and they didn't want summoners getting completely steamrolled by them.
But the same concern applies to Vine Lash. The only real difference between fireball and Vine Lash is that Vine Lash is settled with attack rolls instead of Reflex saves. And it does no damage on a miss of course.
You say that any competent summoner keeps their eidolon far away from them to avoid Vine Lash and other Whirlwind-Strike-like abilities. But there are plenty of situations that require you to be near or even adjacent to your eidolon, so a summoner and eidolon both getting fireballed or Vine Lashed isn't always coming down to skill. Which is why summoners have the mitigating rule in the first place.
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So, if Vine Lash can only affect the Summoner/Eidolon once, does that also apply to Draconic Frenzy? That's also a two action activity that gives multiple attacks:
The dragon makes two claw Strikes and one wing Strike in any order.
You'd have to assume the answer is "no" because this one allows you to attack a single target three times, and taking only the worst of three separate strikes makes no sense. Likewise, taking more damage if the summoner gets hit twice than if the summoner and eidolon each get hit once (because the dragon split attacks) also doesn't make much sense.
But that makes the difference really, really fuzzy since both it and Vine Lash are 2 action activities and both do strikes. The only difference is Vine Lash can hit everything in an area once, while Draconic Frenzy is simply "make a bunch of strikes with action compression".
Because of how wonky this gets if you include seperate strikes as "The same effect", I tend to discount that and say that it doesn't work on Vine Lash. Because if it does, the logic for why it doesn't work on Draconic Frenzy is very, very sketchy. I also find it odd to say that two different strikes "are the same effect".
Yeah, that makes it rough for a Summoner. That's how it goes sometimes.
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I think Tridus is right. Fuzzy as rules are on this kind of inheritance, assuming that "suffer only the greater of the two effects" applies to the sub-actions Vine Lash uses I think leads to fairly inconsistent behavior for other composite actions, so I would rule that the Strikes are separate effects even if it doesn't work out well for the Summoner.
More broadly, I think this is one of the unfortunate side effects of 2e's single-target vs. AoE dichotomy: classes good at single-target damage like Strikes are generally not allowed to have strong DCs for AoE, and sometimes individual creatures or character options try to circumvent this by letting a character make lots of Strikes as a pseudo-AoE instead of having enemies make saves against a weaker DC. Ideally, creatures and characters should be able to do what they need to do in a manner that's consistent, and that doesn't lead to cases like double-dipping into damage against a character with two bodies and a shared HP pool, but that's the price to pay for 2e's strong niche protection