Let's say I cast spider sting on an enemy. They fail on their initial saving throw and become afflicted by spider venom at stage 1. I know everyone rolls for afflictions at the end of their turn, and that spider venom has an interval of 1 round.
I figured it was simple. Enemy rolls for spider venom to go up or down on their next end of turn. Yet, no matter the initiative order, 1 round would not have passed at that point so they actually don't roll? So is it true I actually have to wait for it to go to my turn first, then the enemy rolls at end of turn after that? Essentially skipping one enemy end of turn before it rolls for the affliction to go up and down for the first time?
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Durations counting down don't require a whole round to pass. They count down when mandated in the turn structure. For instance, say you cast delay consequences when your ally got mortally hit during a foe's turn. Theoretically you'd have a whole round to heal him up and prevent the impending effects of the hit from dropping him. But if your turn was next, your spell's duration would count down and end without anyone else having a chance to act
Poisons with short stages are dangerous because after application the saves switch to the end of the victim's turn, but remember a victim might also save and shake it off just as fast or apply countermeasures during their turn. So it's not as guaranteed as your ally's fate in my example
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Its worth adding that the reason why this is done is so that its easier to track individual effects unrelated to who cast them. Ofcourse rules as written this becomes a bit wonky with reactions and durations on the same round as they are cast.
But afflictions always are rolled at the end of their turn from Step 3:End your turn. Which does give afflictions a similar behavior to frightened.
|
3 people marked this as a favorite.
|
You already roll the second save at the end of the creature's next turn, even though an entire round hasn't passed. It's for simplicity, so you don't have to keep track of who first poisoned who. It shortens the first interval, yes, but the poisoned creature still always gets a chance to act before the next save. So that's the compromise for playability.
Very similar to the frightened condition as well – it can be vastly more or less useful depending on how initiative is ordered. But having to keep track of the time in initiative when the condition was first applied would not be worth the extra fidelity.
Whew, I’m glad it’s actually ran the simple way then. Keeping track of skipping that first tick seemed like such a pain. Like frightened is a great way to look at it for me.
Thanks everyone!
Hold up. The Affliction rules don't say anything about the end of your turn at all. Given that, I think the word "affliction" in Step 3 is intended to refer to general negative effects that you save against at the end of your turn, not actual afflictions like spider venom, and the hyperlink to the Affliction rules is a mistake.
So the next save would actually be at the start of the caster's turn, as normal for durations.
In fact, that's what the Affliction rules say.
"At the end of a stage's listed interval, you must attempt a new saving throw."
So if the intervals is 1 round, you'd save when that 1 round expires, which is at the start of the user's turn.
SuperParkourio wrote: Hold up. The Affliction rules don't say anything about the end of your turn at all. Given that, I think the word "affliction" in Step 3 is intended to refer to general negative effects that you save against at the end of your turn, not actual afflictions like spider venom, and the hyperlink to the Affliction rules is a mistake.
So the next save would actually be at the start of the caster's turn, as normal for durations.
SuperParkourio wrote: In fact, that's what the Affliction rules say.
"At the end of a stage's listed interval, you must attempt a new saving throw."
So if the intervals is 1 round, you'd save when that 1 round expires, which is at the start of the user's turn.
I think you're confusing yourself, SP
Step 3: End Your Turn wrote: If you have a persistent damage condition, you take the damage at this point. After you take the damage, you can attempt the flat check to end the persistent damage. You then attempt any saving throws for ongoing afflictions. Many other conditions change at the end of your turn, such as the frightened condition decreasing in severity. These take place after you've taken any persistent damage, attempted flat checks to end the persistent damage, and attempted saves against any afflictions. So aside from conditions like frightened, and persistent damage, what "general negative effects" do you save for at the end of your turn?
No, they're quite clearly referring to the family of effects that are named "afflictions", not carelessly using it as a catch-all term for any bad effects you're suffering from
Baarogue wrote: So aside from conditions like frightened, and persistent damage, what "general negative effects" do you save for at the end of your turn? Paralyze: Critical Failure: The target is paralyzed for 4 rounds. At the end of each of its turns, it can attempt a new Will save to reduce the remaining duration by 1 round, or end it entirely on a critical success.
Dominate: Failure: You control the target. It gains the controlled condition, but it can attempt a Will save at the end of each of its turns. On a success, the spell ends.
Phantasmal Calamity: If it fails the second save, it's also stunned for 1 minute. It can attempt a new Will save at the end of each of its turns, and on a success, it disbelieves the illusion and recovers from the stunned condition.
The list is far from exhaustive.
Alternatively, the developers may have written the "afflictions" part of Step 3 before the actual affliction rules were finalized, which would explain its complete absence from the afflictions section.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
General end of turn effects is already a separate step, and they previously had text explaining that negative effects in general 'tick' at the end of the victims turn.
So the different steps currently are.
*Reduce duration of effects that last trough an number of your turns.
*Take persistent damage and affliction saves, then handle changes to conditions.
*Trigger abilities with 'your turn ends' triggers
*Resolve anything else that is specified to happen at the end of your turn
Saying that the hyperlink in AoN is a mistake is well, affliction/afflictions is one of those words which are basically never capitalized or italizised to begin with but they also clearly aren't talking about general end of turn effects due to that being it's own step.
Yes, read literally, the different rules sections contradict each other on this topic. The reasonable course of action imo is to follow the End Your Turn rules, as that solution is better for playability.
So let me get this straight. If I crit fail against Paralyze, I can choose to make the repeat save after reducing the frightened condition to lessen the penalty. But if I am afflicted with spider venom, I have to roll that first?
SuperParkourio wrote: Baarogue wrote: So aside from conditions like frightened, and persistent damage, what "general negative effects" do you save for at the end of your turn? Paralyze: Critical Failure: The target is paralyzed for 4 rounds. At the end of each of its turns, it can attempt a new Will save to reduce the remaining duration by 1 round, or end it entirely on a critical success.
Dominate: Failure: You control the target. It gains the controlled condition, but it can attempt a Will save at the end of each of its turns. On a success, the spell ends.
Phantasmal Calamity: If it fails the second save, it's also stunned for 1 minute. It can attempt a new Will save at the end of each of its turns, and on a success, it disbelieves the illusion and recovers from the stunned condition.
The list is far from exhaustive.
Alternatively, the developers may have written the "afflictions" part of Step 3 before the actual affliction rules were finalized, which would explain its complete absence from the afflictions section. these aren't "general negative effects"; they're spell effects, and fall under the final bullet point in Step 3, "Resolve anything else specified to happen at the end of your turn." So you could resolve it before spider venom since you can do each of the bullet points in any order you choose. But not if you chose to reduce frightened condition, since that occurs in the same bullet point as afflictions
so if you're suffering from frightened and spider venom AND paralyze; you could save vs paralyze, then vs spider venom, then count down your frightened OR save vs spider venom, then lower frightened, then save vs paralyze, but not drop frightened first, then save vs spider venom and paralyze
SuperParkourio wrote: So let me get this straight. If I crit fail against Paralyze, I can choose to make the repeat save after reducing the frightened condition to lessen the penalty. But if I am afflicted with spider venom, I have to roll that first? Yes, The same goes if you had a benefit that lasts until the end of you turn, such as anything that gives you a bonus to saves or resistance towards whatever persistant damage you are taking while you sustain the spell. or if you were sustaining an effect that gave you a vulnerability. Because as said.
"step3: end you turn wrote: Once you've done all the things you want to do with the actions you have available, you reach the end of your turn. Take the following steps in any order you choose. The only caveat is that one of the steps handle 4 different things and does state that those things do have an order to them.
Persistent damage taken -> Flat Check to recover from persistent -> Save vs Affliction -> changes in conditions.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Ok, but they should really update the Affliction rules to mention that the save is End of Turn. No one will know to look in Step 3 for this info.
Recent threads in Rules Discussion
|
